Dekuman
Starman
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Why would you upscale to 4k? I think Nintendo should target 1080 or 1440p for demanding games.
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
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Paul_Subsonic
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If you use DLSS upscaling, might as well upscale to the max output res.
Unless DLSS turns out to be too intensive to run, which I doubt.
syrozz
Cappy
Ultra Performance is really spectacular on the 2.5.1 patch for 4k (and 1440p) rendering. It would almost be a shame not to use it.
But you're right, if they keep the same settings in portable mode, the jump from 360p to 1080p (or 240p to 720p?) will be rouuugh lol. Using ultra performance in docked mode would take some specific tweaking in portable that only few developers would be willing to do.
Speaking of which, I was wondering if DLSS could be built into the OS and applied automatically, like FSR with the steam deck?
Dekuman
Starman
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The idea is to upscale to a resolution that makes the game look good at a higher resolution than it is rendering natively. TVs and monitors that supports higher resolutions can then upscale that 1080 or 1440p imake to 4k.
Also doesn't upscaling to higher resolutions cost more resources for DLSS?
nah, it requires game engine integration. Even if there is some level of automation, devs will have to fine tune it for optimal performance, as I suspect is the case with fsr2 as well.
Paul_Subsonic
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IIRC Steam Deck implements FSR 1, a spatial upscaled which doesn't require game engine info, as opposed to FSR 2 which, like DLSS 2, is temporal and requires engine stuff like motion vectors.
Although maybe there's something that can be done at the API level which could infer all the necessary info from the API draw calls, however this subject is F A R beyond my knowledge level and only the more tech-versed users here could answer that correctly, and confirm I'm not saying stupid BS.
the higher the output, the higher the costs, yea
and to be honest, by how much people probably play switch on 4K tvs, I'm not sure 720p > 2160p would be a deal breaker.
Paul_Subsonic
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TV upscaling is always gonna be worse than DLSS.
When I said that 720p to 4k would look bad, I didn't mean that somehow increasing the output from 1080p to 4k is going to mess up everything. Technically, 720p to 4k looks better than 720p to 1080p.
BUT
You don't have the same expectations for a small 1080p screen and a giant 4K 50 inch TV.
In all cases, something that's rendered at 720p, no matter how it's upscaled, is not gonna look good on a giant 4k 50 inch TV.
720p to 1080p technically is worse, but a 1080p screen comes with much lower expectations.
In this modern day and age where the vast majority of TVs sold are 4k, a 720p internal res is just not enough.
And yeah, higher DLSS output res are harder to run, but as I said I doubt 4k DLSS is gonna be hard to run. Except for 60fps.
less Color and more Advance. the gameboy died with the Advance, but IMO, could have easily been extended with the "Gameboy DS". such a missed opportunity
Foltzie
Uncle Muji
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I too am curious about Drake’s HDR support, but based on speculation I would wager Nintendo doesn’t support HDR on (REDACTED), given the disparate levels of HDR support on TVs even today.
I wish I could find the relevant DF video, but I recall them saying some developers HDR support was bad, making me wonder if the dev hardware in terms of monitors and the like have varying levels of HDR support itself, hindering HDR development sometimes.
Of course I say that and (REDACTED) is going to support Dolby, which would be great. I have an LGCX so bring it on.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Doing a non-HDR handheld screen would suck a huge amount.
I can see Nintendo allowing hdr in docked mode.
If hdr is like the few times I used it on my phone, they're probably better forgoing it. Shit sucks up battery like a motherfucker
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Looking at mobile HDR usage, it seems like HDR demands a much higher brightness that can be reasonably allowed by mobile hardware.
So I would guess it's very unlikely for a handheld Switch 2.
Well, that sucks.
So I would guess it's very unlikely for a handheld Switch 2.
Well, that sucks.
Also important to remember oleds lose a lot of their efficiency benefits in very bright scenes and high brightness settings
It was the right call killing the gameboy brand, implying gaming is for boys imo.
ArchedThunder
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720p to 4k does not look “really bad.” It doesn’t look like native 4k, but it still looks decent.
Impossible ports are unlikely to upscale to 4k, they’re going to need every last bit of juice they can get, so 1440p or 1080p will likely be used for those.
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LinkURL
Bob-omb
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DLSS is very cost-effective, the compromises that a game would need to make to run DLSS at 4K instead of just upscaling to 1080p, are very cheap compromises compared to the quality gain of DLSS.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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Do we KNOW it's going to support Dolby? Which Dolby standards? Atmos? Vision? Both?
I'd love to see it do both but Nintendo has been allergic to paying licencing fees for that sort of thing for some time. They intentionally pushed 3DS out of the market in favour of 2DS XL for the last few years on the market to avoid a licencing fee. They avoided DVD and Blu-Ray playback on Wii and Wii U to avoid licencing fees. They avoided Dolby of any kind on Nintendo Switch to avoid licencing fees.
I'd love to see it, but I don't expect it. Nintendo likes open standards, not only because they give them wiggle room to violate them to "Nintendoify" them, but because they're free.
Foltzie
Uncle Muji
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I could too, but I could see them just leaving it out too if it doesn’t work in handheld mode.
I was saying I would love Dolby Vison since I have a compatible display, not that I think it’s coming.
ArchedThunder
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For what will be a low power and comparatively weak device the cost of 4k DLSS is not going to be as cheap as on a PC. Setting DLSS to a lower output will free up a decent amount of render time and some more RAM, both of which will be incredibly important for impossible ports.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Would you rather have
Switch 2 that is 4x as powerful as the original but has a good SSD comparable to the 256GB Steam Deck.
Switch 2 that is 8x as powerful as the original but has internal storage similar to the original Switch.
Switch 2 that is 4x as powerful as the original but has a good SSD comparable to the 256GB Steam Deck.
Switch 2 that is 8x as powerful as the original but has internal storage similar to the original Switch.
what 3DS licensing fee? the 2DS was because 3D was a bust and it reduced their build costs
as for HDR, there are licensing free formats out there like HDR10+
D
Deleted member 887
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Oh yeah, then the barrier here is active cooling. If you put a cooling solution in the dock, it's going to be super inefficient because it can only cool the backplate, or increase draw at the vents if you're very clever. But you're cooling something which is in contact with something which is contact with something that is in contact with the SOC. You can dissipate heat as fast you want off that plastic backplate, but it's only so conductive
We don't have to speculate, we can quantify the ideal performance delta - it's where the performance per pixel is the same. Think about a typical AAA PC game's settings panel - widgets for Reflection Rendering, Anti-Aliasing, Foloage Density, Texture Resolution, Shadow Quality, Ambient Occlusion, Depth of Field, Hair Detail, Particle Effects, Bloom Level, Depth of Field, on and on and on. And these are just examples from a handy game that originated on consoles.
All of these settings exist independent of resolution and scale in performance cost with it. Meaning, that if you cut the GPU power in half, you can cut the resolution in half while leaving all these settings unchanged. This not only means that handheld and docked experiences are the same, it cuts the development work considerably.
Can you get away from that ratio? Sure, it's not like there is a bright red line. It's more like a spectrum where the closer you get to the ratio, the simpler everything becomes, and the further away, the bigger the problems
To be clear, I don't think this is a Powerful Dictate From Mr. Nintendo That Can Never Be Broken. EPD is going to be making games while the hardware is being designed. And both the hardware teams and the software teams are going to be told that both modes have to look good. EPD is going to want more power, all the time. The Hardware Team is going to want less power, to drive down costs. Both sides are going to want the device to be successful. That natural push and pull means that EPD will push for more performance, and if hardware can give it to them reasonably, they'll get it. And Hardware will push for a smaller batter, a quieter fan, a cheaper dock, and if EPD has unused performance lying around, then they're going to have to give it up.
We saw this with the Switch. Nintendo actually started with a perfect 2.25x performance ratio, exactly the same as the target pixel ratio. But they quickly made the ratio smaller, pushing handheld mode further. Why? Because the memory bandwidth on the TX1 was really bad, and it limited what handheld mode could do, so that handheld and docked mode were too different. Nintendo couldn't fix the "real" problem without tanking battery life, so the extra GPU power was the band-aid.
DLSS may skew these numbers a little bit as EPD figures it out, and because tensor core performance scaling affects DLSS performance in non-obvious ways. I don't think memory bandwidth or CPU speeds will be an issue this time around, but perhaps there is a similar confounding factor that means GPU power needs to be tweaked in one mode or another to compensate. But that 2.25x performance factor is just the natural stable point that, even with no pre-planning, they're going to gravitate towards.
D
Deleted member 887
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This is what I meant, better said that I said it.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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They were sued by a patent holder for glasses free 3D.
3DS models were still selling when they got pulled, even at their higher prices.
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When did they say that
RennanNT
Bob-omb
Steam Deck is limited by it's ability to decompress files. Tests shows negligible difference in game loading times between the faster SSD used on 256 and 512 GB models, the slower one used on the 64GB (Same tech as the one on Switch) and micro SD card.
Apparently the Switch 2 chip will have hardware decompression and, if so, it will have faster loading times than the Steam Deck even if it uses the same storage as the Switch/Deck64GB.
With that in mind, my answer is:
I would take 4x with hardware decompression over 8x without it. If 8x includes hw decompression though, I'd take that. UFS/NMVE would be nice, but it would enter diminished returns at that point and not be worth half of the power.
I prefer that they cheap out on storage, as I think they will.
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Sorry what does this mean?
Mr Swine
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720p to 4K (UP) looks better than 1440p so there is that.
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I don't remember who it is, but someone around here has several times mentioned how battery capacities have improved a few percentage each year, making them think it was feasible a battery around 6000 mAh could be the same volume as Switch's older 4310 mAh battery. Anyway, if something like that were the case it could have higher power consumption than the Erista Switch while still having the same or better battery life.
They really won't. A 1.5x scale is more even than a 1.25x scale, and there are better scaling options than just bilinear filtering as 3DS used, making it so the difference isn't very noticeable on a large TV, let alone a small screen.
My 256GB Steam Deck's internal storage hasn't particularly impressed me vs SD card, so #2 easy.
I think what they're trying to say is so many people are already used to the ACTUAL ugly of TVs scaling 720p to 4K that the DLSS version of scaling 720p to 4K will seem like a huge improvement.
I think it means that people are already used to bad IQ on Switch, so 720 dlssed to 4k would be a huge improvement.
TLZ
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8x for me.
4K tvs are cheap and plentiful, and the wider audience has long sense shown to not be too bothered by the IP of crappily scaled low resolution images (see the days of 480p DVDs on 720p/1080p tvs or having a Switch connected to a 2160p television like I have). so the relatively poor IQ of 720p dlss'd to 2160p is something people are used to
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Thanks. I agree - there’s a massive gap between where we currently are and even consistent 1080p.
Question, and apologies as this has probably been covered - without DLSS, based on what we “know” where do we expect a new generation (XSX/PS5) game to land in handheld in terms of resolution?
If we assume they’ll hit as low as 360p again, what would might that be on docked clocks? 720p?
And lastly, would DLSS not be sufficient to bring these to a competent 720p in handheld and 1440p on docked - maybe even 4K? I keep hearing “DLSS isn’t magic” but it certainly looks like magic, and I had assumed docked Switch 2 would benefit immensely from it.
the problem with comparing Drake to PS5/Series X is that it'd be similar to how Switch is to XBO/PS4. games still need downgrades in asset quality and frame rate in addition to resolution.
the reason DLSS isn't magic is because the performance gains come from lowering the resolution. the "magic" is in the upscaling quality. but FSR does a good enough job too, so there's nothing stopping the other systems from lowering their resolution for increased performance. that's already the best practice right now. that said, DLSS works better than FSR at lower resolutions, so in theory, devs could get away with a lower input res
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
There are like 15 multi-platform AAA games released each year at this point. The Switch 2 will probably not be able to handle most of them, but DLSS will at least make the Nintendo first party games not look awful on my 4K TV so that will be very good.
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So it is magic, but the competition has lesser magic, making the DLSS magic itself relatively less potent.
I assumed the claim was around it being less effective for Switch’s power consumption or similar. Every video that shows the boost a good DLSS implementation gives games on PC looks like magic to me.
MP!
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I mean 720p DLSS to 4K looks better than just 720p stretched on a 4K tv
I see no issue with ultra performance mode
I do have a nagging thought in the back of my mind about if drake has the tensor performance to support DLSS as well as a full on FATTY GPU though… so I guess we’ll find out
I see no issue with ultra performance mode
I do have a nagging thought in the back of my mind about if drake has the tensor performance to support DLSS as well as a full on FATTY GPU though… so I guess we’ll find out
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
that's very subjective. people have different tolerances, and, as I said, the wider audience is more accepting of poor IQ through worse upscaling methods
DLSS does reduce power consumption, but the idea is that DLSS is on the costly side for Drake, computationally. Digital Foundry did a video on that some time ago. there are ways around it, like making a new model for Drake that's lower quality but faster, or finding out that DLSS's floor is lower than expected.
and some games have larger boosts depending on how resolution dependent they are. this is why RT games get higher boosts than raster games, because a big part of the costs are the number of rays shot out
Kazuyamishima
Moblin
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The T239 is supposed to be as powerful roughly as a RTX 3050 which is less powerful than a 2060 but the T239 will be using considerably less watts than a 3050
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Wait, no.
But we don’t really know how it’ll do wrt DLSS since it’ll be a very low level system vs what a desktop card is.
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Am I really that forgettable?
Here’s the quote with link to confirm the data:
D
Deleted member 887
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It’s a handheld, my friend. The 2060 outpaces the Series S in raw GPU performance. I see this all the time, where instincts about performance aren’t well calibrated across generations.
It probably won’t match a 3050 either. But in terms of DLSS specifically, the 30 series cards did add a major improvement that lets DLSS run much faster on those cards relative to their FLOPS.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Another thing though is that the tensor cores could be optimized better for the DLSS neural network if there are no other potential functions for the tensor cores.
Which is a possibility.
And NVIDIA could focus on developing a much smaller parameter DLSS 2.xx version to work on the Switch 2 as most neural networks are focused much more on performance than minimizing amount of parameters.
You can generally make a neural network much sparser these days without a huge hit to accuracy.
Which is a possibility.
And NVIDIA could focus on developing a much smaller parameter DLSS 2.xx version to work on the Switch 2 as most neural networks are focused much more on performance than minimizing amount of parameters.
You can generally make a neural network much sparser these days without a huge hit to accuracy.
there may be other functions for the tensor cores as matrix multiplication is a relatively common thing. I guess most other possible tasks just don't need to leverage explicit hardware like inference does.
that and the tensor cores are kinda black boxes and devs don't have access to them. if the TCs are open to devs on drake, we could see some interesting shit with them and RT cores.
that and the tensor cores are kinda black boxes and devs don't have access to them. if the TCs are open to devs on drake, we could see some interesting shit with them and RT cores.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
I mean, hypothetically yes, but on the other hand, there are very few bleeding edge developers in the Nintendo ecosystem outside of EPD, Next Level, and Retro.
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
DLSS 2 already makes heavy use of sparsity and the 3rd gen tensor cores are heavily optimized for sparse operations
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