StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

[fwd-bwd]

To tie up a loose end, I've now seen things that strongly suggest the G-Sync support in NVN2 is only for the Windows implementation. I do think it's weird that it's there, and that it got its own section in the programming guide (which seems copy-pasted and doesn't even mention NX hardware), but this is the Nvidia side of things, not the Nintendo side, and I think they've worked on some features for trial purposes, future-proofing, and/or demoing that Nintendo is unlikely to be taking advantage of at the moment. There is also a feature profile that explicitly says DisplayPort support is turned off on Tegra, though we have no way of knowing if Nintendo's actual build of NVN2 uses that profile.

Thanks for the reality check. Also this:

According to this new rumor coming from Taiwan, as reported on the ResetERA forums, the new Nintendo console's GPU will be clocked at almost 1 GHz in docked mode, and at 768 MHz in handheld mode. As such, the console is said to be capable of pushing up to 120 FPS at 720p in handheld mode, but it seems like Nintendo will fix performance at 60 FPS, 720p resolution. On the other hand, docked performance will be optimized for 1440p resolution.
Do we trust this ?

I summarized this Korean leaker's patchy history here.

That really depends if the adoption rate of UFS Cards does go up, and even then it will be a big gamble. It could end up creating another Memory Stick scenario...

Meanwhile, small form M.2 SSDs might be a better solution, but no doubt more expensive than the former. It's still more ubiqutous than UFS Cards as far as availability is concerned, and I do think the prices of M.2 storage are starting to drop despite the issues brought forth by the global chip shortage.

The UFS Card essentially is a repackaged eUFS, therefore its scale economy should be vastly better than the Memory Stick or the exotic variants of microSD.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

I wonder if that beefier than expected GPU would result in cuts elsewhere in the system, ie, a lower CPU core count. Something like 4 A78 cores instead of 6 or 8.

You could happen, assuming Nintendo is concerned with diesize. But if that was the case, they wouldn't go with such big GPU in first place. I really doubt we will see CPU being neglected, as CPU, RAM and bandwidth are the bottlenecks the devs complain the most about Switch. Nintendo will probably want to solve these issues with next machine.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Thanks for the reality check. Also this:

Keep in mind fwd-bwd that Lic already confirmed that T239 has RT cores. 12 RT(1 per SM) in fact. Safe to say that hardware accelerated RT is one of the features of the next machine.

 

[Skittzo]

Hmmm just had a thought... This article-

FYI some guy back in June 2021 seemed to accurately guess the number of GPU shaders (assuming Drake still has 128 CUDA cores per SM):

Nintendo Switch Likely to Use Tegra Orin SoC (T239): 12x A78AE CPU Cores, 2,048 Ampere GPU Cores and LPDDR5 Memory | Hardware Times

As the launch of Nintendo’s next-generation Switch Pro console draws near, the specifications have started becoming clearer. There has been a lot of speculation over which SoC the handheld console will use, with some rumors even suggesting a 5nm design based on NVIDIA’s yet unannounced Ada...

www.hardwaretimes.com

which has the 1,536 core number correct, seemingly framed as a guess (but completely out of nowhere), was published in June 2021 just 5 days after this article-

According to this new rumor coming from Taiwan, as reported on the ResetERA forums, the new Nintendo console's GPU will be clocked at almost 1 GHz in docked mode, and at 768 MHz in handheld mode. As such, the console is said to be capable of pushing up to 120 FPS at 720p in handheld mode, but it seems like Nintendo will fix performance at 60 FPS, 720p resolution. On the other hand, docked performance will be optimized for 1440p resolution.
Do we trust this ?

Could that 1536 core number have come from this rumor?

 

[fwd-bwd]

Keep in mind fwd-bwd that Lic already confirmed that T239 has RT cores. 12 RT(1 per SM) in fact. Safe to say that hardware accelerated RT is one of the features of the next machine.

Thanks. I'm aware of that, and the fact that Orin also contains RT cores. The question is whether these RT cores would be useful enough within the power envelope that Nintendo would be targeting. So there's a (hopefully small) chance of them not using it to the full extent but limit it to 3D audio, for example.

 

[Z0m3le]

With such a large die I was thinking it's probably more likely we'll see a smaller battery.

We shouldn't be too sure about the size of the die just yet, even on 8nm it could fit in about 50% more die area than TX1.

 

[Skittzo]

We shouldn't be too sure about the size of the die just yet, even on 8nm it could fit in about 50% more die area than TX1.

Considering how tightly packed the Switch is you'll still need to find room for that extra 50%. And that's assuming they're not adding any other features like cameras.

 

[Illattraction]

Hi all, long time lurker (gaf and reset), first time poster. This is all exciting and appreciate everyone's input. Trying to keep up- is Drake going to use the same game cards for storage or is going to be something different to address the speeds or is going to be like past systems with multiple different game card slots?

 

[Alovon11]

Hi all, long time lurker (gaf and reset), first time poster. This is all exciting and appreciate everyone's input. Trying to keep up- is Drake going to use the same game cards for storage or is going to be something different to address the speeds or is going to be like past systems with multiple different game card slots?

We actually don't know yet.

All we really got from the leak so far is the NVN2 Driver and therefore the GPU Specs (Sans clock speed) of Drake.

The CPU/RAM config of Drake likely will be out by Friday as the hackers will dump the rest of the data.

But things like Clock Speeds and the Storage Medium used for Switch 2 is something that likely won't be in the data

 

[fwd-bwd]

Not sure if this has been discussed before. The OLED model's dock is capable to supplying more power to the Switch console than the previous dock. As you can see in the photo below, the old dock takes in 39w and passes 18w to the Switch; the remaining 21w is reserved for the USB ports. The new dock, however, is capable to passing the full 39w to the console—USB be damned.

Since the OLED model doesn't require more power than the OG or red box Switch, this seems to be a future proofing measure. It might indicate that Nintendo is considering a higher power envelope for the next Switch model, and/or a fast charge feature. 12 SMs? High energy density battery? Sure, why not.

 

[Pokemaniac]

What's the difference between the 234 and 239?

T234 is the main Orin chip. T239 is the custom version designed for Nintendo, seemingly codenamed "Drake".

 

[MondoMega]

Not sure if this has been discussed before. The OLED model's dock is capable to supplying more power to the Switch console than the previous dock. As you can see in the photo below, the old dock takes in 39w and passes 18w to the Switch; the remaining 21w is reserved for the USB ports. The new dock, however, is capable to passing the full 39w to the console—USB be damned.

Since the OLED model doesn't require more power than the OG or red box Switch, this seems to be a future proofing measure. It might indicate that Nintendo is considering a higher power envelope for the next Switch model, and/or a fast charge feature. 12 SMs? High energy density battery? Sure, why not.

Is the idea that the "Dock With LAN Port" would be the dock bundled with this new model too, or just that it'll be forward compatible with it?

 

[Dakhil]

Thanks. I'm aware of that, and the fact that Orin also contains RT cores. The question is whether these RT cores would be useful enough within the power envelope that Nintendo would be targeting. So there's a (hopefully small) chance of them not using it to the full extent but limit it to 3D audio, for example.

Outside of Drake's GPU having 1 RT core per SM, no one really knows much about the RT cores on Drake's GPU. And Nvidia has made no mention of which generation the RT cores on Orin's GPU are part of.

 

[Illattraction]

We actually don't know yet.

All we really got from the leak so far is the NVN2 Driver and therefore the GPU Specs (Sans clock speed) of Drake.

The CPU/RAM config of Drake likely will be out by Friday as the hackers will dump the rest of the data.

But things like Clock Speeds and the Storage Medium used for Switch 2 is something that likely won't be in the data

Thank you

 

[Maxrunner]

T234 is the main Orin chip. T239 is the custom version designed for Nintendo, seemingly codenamed "Drake".

Which one is more performant?

 

[mariodk18]

How do the new discoveries place Drake up against the deck?

 

[Skittzo]

Which one is more performant?

Orin.

How do the new discoveries place Drake up against the deck?

In docked mode it's substantially superior. Portable mode is unknown, we need more info on clocks and/or whether SMs are disabled.

 

[Future Boy Nemo]

@Ghostsonplanets also said that 1 GHz is the maximum clock for Orin, so if that's also true of Drake, then your calculations represent the theoretical maximum performance of GA10B/GA10F.

Just want to add some context to illustrate what @Thraktor said about this: no Maxwell GPU has a boost clock over 1.3ghz, and quite a few have base clocks sub 1ghz. The 1ghz speed Tegra X1 is rated for falls into the middle of the range you would expect from Maxwell. Ampere meanwhile can boost nearly to 1.8ghz, and can have base clocks at 1.5ghz.

I would expect Orin to be rated for around 1.3 gigahertz, and for Nintendo to limit Drake to 1ghz in docked mode (give or take 5%) for the sake of yield and power consumption.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

We shouldn't be too sure about the size of the die just yet, even on 8nm it could fit in about 50% more die area than TX1.

The black square is roughly 176mm^2 which is roughly 50% more than the 118mm^2 of the TX1, zoom in. OG TX1 was itself 10.6mm x 11.1mm as per Fritzchen Fritz, this Square is roughly 12.985mm x 13.5975mm and is within 2% of error.



That doesn’t account the substrate though… but in case it piqued your curiosity at what it can possibly look like.

@Thraktor in case you were curious at what it could look like when later on top of one another.

Oh yeah, @Skittzo you were curious about it too. Here’s the comparison.

 

[Deleted member 645]

Crazy times.

 

[Alovon11]

The black square is roughly 176mm^2 which is roughly 50% more than the 118mm^2 of the TX1, zoom in. OG TX1 was itself 10.6mm x 11.1mm as per Fritzchen Fritz, this Square is roughly 12.985mm x 13.5975mm and is within 2% of error.



That doesn’t account the substrate though… but in case it piqued your curiosity at what it can possibly look like.

@Thraktor in case you were curious at what it could look like when later on top of one another.

Oh yeah, @Skittzo you were curious about it too. Here’s the comparison.

Honestly, I could see them squeezing down the substrate a bit.
Not to mention that it wouldn't need to carry nearly as much logic as Orin

 

[Pokemaniac]

Is the idea that the "Dock With LAN Port" would be the dock bundled with this new model too, or just that it'll be forward compatible with it?

That was an idea being discussed at one time, but I've become somewhat less convinced of it over time. Some degree of (possibly limited) forward compatibility is likely if the system isn't physically incompatible, but I think it's fairly likely there will be a new dock that you'll need for full functionality.

 

[Sol]

So do we know if the 12 SMs on the T239 are going to actually be used by the system itself? The API wouldn't even bother mentioning 12 if they weren't all accessible and usable, right?

Or is it likely Nintendo will have some of them disabled?

 

[fwd-bwd]

Is the idea that the "Dock With LAN Port" would be the dock bundled with this new model too, or just that it'll be forward compatible with it?

Agreed with @Pokemaniac that re-bundling of the OLED Model dock seems unlikely. It may still be forward compatible though. The RTD2172N chip in the dock support 4K and HDR, the dock's firmware is updatable, and as mentioned above it supplies more wattage to the Switch.

 

[Dakhil]

Not sure if this has been discussed before. The OLED model's dock is capable to supplying more power to the Switch console than the previous dock. As you can see in the photo below, the old dock takes in 39w and passes 18w to the Switch; the remaining 21w is reserved for the USB ports. The new dock, however, is capable to passing the full 39w to the console—USB be damned.

Since the OLED model doesn't require more power than the OG or red box Switch, this seems to be a future proofing measure. It might indicate that Nintendo is considering a higher power envelope for the next Switch model, and/or a fast charge feature. 12 SMs? High energy density battery? Sure, why not.

On a little bit of an unrelated note, I wonder if Nintendo's going to try to have the console and the dock be fully compliant with the USB PD 3.0 standards.

 

[Crusters]

So do we know if the 12 SMs on the T239 are going to actually be used by the system itself? The API wouldn't even bother mentioning 12 if they weren't all accessible and usable, right?

Or is it likely Nintendo will have some of them disabled?

I think I recall we covered earlier It can enable and disable SM'S at will.

 

[Z0m3le]

Not sure if this has been discussed before. The OLED model's dock is capable to supplying more power to the Switch console than the previous dock. As you can see in the photo below, the old dock takes in 39w and passes 18w to the Switch; the remaining 21w is reserved for the USB ports. The new dock, however, is capable to passing the full 39w to the console—USB be damned.

Since the OLED model doesn't require more power than the OG or red box Switch, this seems to be a future proofing measure. It might indicate that Nintendo is considering a higher power envelope for the next Switch model, and/or a fast charge feature. 12 SMs? High energy density battery? Sure, why not.

This is a pretty interesting nugget of information. If this dock can supply more than the OG dock, and OLED model uses something like 2/3rds the power consumption, well it does lend support to the idea that this new model will use even more power than the original Switch used, or they wouldn't have made sure this dock can supply more than the original dock.

Considering the size of the GPU, it does stand to reason that the new model could pull over 20 watts fairly easily, considering the Dock's limits, there is room for a large CPU and decent clocks as well. The portable limit is still going to control cpu clocks and limit such a powerful gpu, but there is a lot of optimism after the GPU's capacity was revealed.

 

[MP!]

So do we know if the 12 SMs on the T239 are going to actually be used by the system itself? The API wouldn't even bother mentioning 12 if they weren't all accessible and usable, right?

Or is it likely Nintendo will have some of them disabled?

They’re there
Who knows what Nintendo plans to do with them

 

[brainchild]

@brainchild : do you have a better estimate for the minimum hardware requirements to run Nanite, GPU-wise?

The hardware requirements provided by the Unreal Engine 5 documentation are for a given system running the engine itself. There isn't a hard limit on a device running a UE5-based game so long as the device's architecture/features are compatible with the feature-set required to run the software.

 

[Kenka]

The hardware requirements provided by the Unreal Engine 5 documentation are for a given system running the engine itself. There isn't a hard limit on a device running a UE5-based game so long as the device's architecture/features are compatible with the feature-set required to run the software.

Thank you so much!

 

[brainchild]

Brainchild specifically stated gpu wasn't the issue in that quote
If nanite doesn't make it to switch next it wouldn't be because of the GPU...

Correct

No, he is just saying that was his worry.

He doesn’t know, if he did he wouldn’t tell us. He signed an NDA.

Correct

Regarding storage speeds:

Inside The Matrix Awakens: a vision for the future of real-time graphics

For Digital Foundry, the highlight of The Game Awards wasn't actually an award as such or even a massive triple-A revea…

www.eurogamer.net

So, for a 60 FPS UE5 title, minimum would be 600MB/s.

Sounds about right (if it's using Nanite).

IIRC, for his project, 300 MB/s was the minimum, 1000 MB/s was the worry-free ideal, and 500 MB/s was the 'gotta keep some restraints in mind, but still quite workable' middle.

Exactly

It's not a question of Nanite specifically. Brainchild is working on a game that combines Nanite with some form (undescribed) of asset streaming. Let's not confuse Brainchild (a specific developer who has made his needs for a specific project clear) with generic features of a third party engine.

Right. To be more clear about this, the scale and traversal of the game require disparate environments to be swapped within seconds. I'm not whining about the bandwidth for shits and giggles. I really need it. Of course, it probably won't be an issue for most devs.

 

[Crusters]

Correct



Correct



Sounds about right (if it's using Nanite).



Exactly



Right. To be more clear about this, the scale and traversal of the game require disparate environments to be swapped within seconds. I'm not whining about the bandwidth for shits and giggles. I really need it. Of course, it probably won't be an issue for most devs.

Stop building the matrix brainchild.

 

[brainchild]

Stop building the matrix brainchild.

 

[Derachi]

Sure would be nice if the new dock for the new unit could just use the existing HDMI/USB-C power adapter of the current Switch Dock so I didn’t have to run any new cables in my entertainment centre. Like I hope the HDMI cable of the current Switch is 4K HDR compatible and that the current power cable is good enough

 

[Kingpin722]

For me personally, even if this thing is as powerful as the leaks suggests, I wouldn’t mind Nintendo maintaining the same level of fidelity they’ve been putting into their games up until this point. Just use all that extra headroom to max out IQ & FPS and ill be in heaven.

 

[ShaunSwitch]

Sure would be nice if the new dock for the new unit could just use the existing HDMI/USB-C power adapter of the current Switch Dock so I didn’t have to run any new cables in my entertainment centre. Like I hope the HDMI cable of the current Switch is 4K HDR compatible and that the current power cable is good enough

I had forgotten about that part. I have two locations with switch docks in my home and both are cable managed. So I am likely going to have to cut and redo cable ties etc to get everything in place. Doh!

It does seem increasingly likely that a new power adaptor will be needed for this switch.

 

[chocolate_supra]

Stop building the matrix brainchild.

brainchild is Neil Patrick Harris confirmed

 

[LiC]

For me personally, even if this thing is as powerful as the leaks suggests, I wouldn’t mind Nintendo maintaining the same level of fidelity they’ve been putting into their games up until this point. Just use all that extra headroom to max out IQ & FPS and ill be in heaven.

There's room for both. But I agree to the extent that I don't care about 4K at all and am much more interested in games hitting native res and locked 60 FPS in both handheld and docked modes.

 

[lexony]

Speaking from my technical noob perspective, is it maybe possible that this next Switch has to be slightly larger to fit everything in? Also it sounds to me that it would be heavier.

 

[Herb Alpert]

How likely is it that we find out in the coming days whether Drake is taped out ?

Quoting Lelouch's post cause I'd like to know that too...

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

For me personally, even if this thing is as powerful as the leaks suggests, I wouldn’t mind Nintendo maintaining the same level of fidelity they’ve been putting into their games up until this point. Just use all that extra headroom to max out IQ & FPS and ill be in heaven.

I suspect that they aren’t going to really make a game for the spec of the hardware for a while. It’ll be targeting below what the hardware is capable of, but that’s mainly due to the way things are in the world right now and not everyone would
be able to get their hands on the hardware anyway. It’s gonna be brute forced to the highest end.


However, over time they would be working on having games from them and their partners that take more advantage of the hardware and start pushing it, but this would come at a cost of performance, so DLSS can help with that to resolve the image. But not such a potent use.


And by the mid line the games use DLSS when the res is half way from 4K instead of a quarter away.

And then it’s 1/4th of 4K because they are pushing it so much, but DLSS is resolving the other 3/4th for a 4K image.


Then at the end of the Drake generation, the device is internally doing 720-900p dynamic and using DLSS to resolve a better image


Basically, as time goes, the use of DLSS becomes more aggressive because the games are more demanding.


But the early games would just look like switch 1 games for a while. Because there’s really no reason to abandon that at the moment.

 

[thegodsend]

I've tried to comprehend all th tech details but I'm somewhat lost.

Do the experts here still believe this leak is stronger than what was expected or are expectations now down again as it might not hit a good performance and can't use DLSS to it's fullest due to presumably low clockspeeds?

 

[Crusters]

I've tried to comprehend all th tech details but I'm somewhat lost.

Do the experts here still believe this leak is stronger than what was expected or are expectations now down again as it might not hit a good performance and can't use DLSS to it's fullest due to presumably low clockspeeds?

This is way stronger than expected.

 

[Terrell]

That really depends if the adoption rate of UFS Cards does go up, and even then it will be a big gamble. It could end up creating another Memory Stick scenario...

Meanwhile, small form M.2 SSDs might be a better solution, but no doubt more expensive than the former. It's still more ubiqutous than UFS Cards as far as availability is concerned, and I do think the prices of M.2 storage are starting to drop despite the issues brought forth by the global chip shortage.

Yeah, as was mentioned by @fwd-bwd, we're not talking about some exotic storage method, we're talking about the removable card version of the storage solution used in half of the Android smartphones released in the past few years.
Also, there's no gambling here, there's already a market for UFS Cards and their readers, and it's the auto industry. Nvidia's Jetson AGX Xavier and up include a dedicated UPHY I/O lane (lane #9 in the Orin model, specifically) on the default carrier board, so auto makers can install on-board computer software and store black box data on a removable card. This option has been available to that industry since 2020 and no one would go through with adding an I/O option that won't be used by a sizeable part of their customers.

If Nintendo wants to do with UFS Card 3.0 what Sony did with DVD and Blu-Ray (make it mass marketable by providing one of the first major use cases for a new technology) but for a whole hell of a lot less R&D and manufacturing investment, who are we to say no? We can't lambast Nintendo for not being up on technology and then wince when it's suggested that they implement a functional technology that ticks every box (small form factor, fast read/write, rock-bottom power consumption, great price per GB for the consumer, royalty-free tech) to improve user experience for the better.

 

[NineTailSage]

Yeah, as was mentioned by @fwd-bwd, we're not talking about some exotic storage method, we're talking about the removable card version of the storage solution used in half of the Android smartphones released in the past few years.
Also, there's no gambling here, there's already a market for UFS Cards and their readers, and it's the auto industry. Nvidia's Jetson AGX Xavier and up include a dedicated UPHY I/O lane (lane #9 in the Orin model, specifically) on the default carrier board, so auto makers can install on-board computer software and store black box data on a removable card. This option has been available to that industry since 2020 and no one would go through with adding an I/O option that won't be used by a sizeable part of their customers.

If Nintendo wants to do with UFS Card 3.0 what Sony did with DVD and Blu-Ray (make it mass marketable by providing one of the first major use cases for a new technology) but for a whole hell of a lot less R&D and manufacturing investment, who are we to say no? We can't lambast Nintendo for not being up on technology and then wince when it's suggested that they implement a functional technology that ticks every box (small form factor, fast read/write, rock-bottom power consumption, great price per GB for the consumer, royalty-free tech) to improve user experience for the better.

Then again the Steamdeck is showing us what's possible with SD cards by having a faster I/O bus to fully utilize the storage medium and what its capable of...

 

[ArchedThunder]

Part of me is now wondering if the system might have a screen higher res than 720p, both because it’s a more capable device than previously thought and also because a higher res screen could potentially be used for better VR (which the system would be capable of now).

 

[Luneth]

Part of me is now wondering if the system might have a screen higher res than 720p, both because it’s a more capable device than previously thought and also because a higher res screen could potentially be used for better VR (which the system would be capable of now).

I don't think we need more than 720p in a 7 inches screen. The image on the oled with games at native resolution is absolutely pristine.

 

[Hermii]

Part of me is now wondering if the system might have a screen higher res than 720p, both because it’s a more capable device than previously thought and also because a higher res screen could potentially be used for better VR (which the system would be capable of now).

Personally I feel 1080p would be a waste. Thats a lot of extra pixels to render, for what in my opinion is a minimal inchrease in quality at that screensize. I rather take native res, higher framerates and better AA/ post processing. Even better battery life.,

I don't think we need more than 720p in a 7 inches screen. The image on the oled with games at native resolution is absolutely pristine.

Also this-

 

[Mercury_Sagit]

Part of me is now wondering if the system might have a screen higher res than 720p, both because it’s a more capable device than previously thought and also because a higher res screen could potentially be used for better VR (which the system would be capable of now).

My argument against a higher screen res is image quality of games in backward compatibility mode. Even in docked profile, many games top out at 720p, and playing those on such a screen will suffer from visual artifacts due to upscaling. Of course some developers will go back and patch their current Switch titles to take advantage of the new hardware, but it's hardly guaranteed.

 

[ArchedThunder]

I don't think we need more than 720p in a 7 inches screen. The image on the oled with games at native resolution is absolutely pristine.

For VR 720p is really low.

Personally I feel 1080p would be a waste. Thats a lot of extra pixels to render, for what in my opinion is a minimal inchrease in quality at that screensize. I rather take native res, higher framerates and better AA/ post processing. Even better battery life.,

Also this-

Wouldn’t be as much if an issue with DLSS.

My argument against a higher screen res is image quality of games in backeard compatibility mode. Even in docked profile, many games top out at 720p, and playing those on such a screen will suffer from visual artifacts due to upscaling. Of course some developers will go back and patch their current Switch titles to take advantage of the new hardware, but it's hardly guaranteed.

Upscaling 720p to 1080p on a 7 inch screen would still look great.