Thraktor
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I’m expecting it to have 128GB of storage. The maximum that I’d say is reasonable to expect is 256GB, but theoretically they could put far more in if money were no object.
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
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Mr Swine
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How close would a Dane SoC be to PS4 (If Dane is comparable to Xbox One S flop wise) if it uses Mesh shaders? I know is that it combines vertex and geometry shaders into a single shader stage that boosts performance. I know there are other more modern techniques that are incorporated into the SoC but would that be enough to put it above the Xbox One S and close to the PS4 or is that simply impossible because of raw flops?
No one knows. There are any benches that show the potential of mesh shaders. And it's largely for geometry rather than lighting and whatnot
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I mean, this is a presumably more expensive device, maybe we can entertain it a little
The mesh shaders wouldn’t really apply to that, as it’s a culling technique for geometry.
But due to the more modern uArch, Dane being around XB1 flop wise on paper should have it toe to toe with the PS4 GPU perf wise in real world scenarios.
But more information is needed to confirm that, it’s not that simple.
Esticamelapixa
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Thank you both for replies.
So we can reasonably assume somewhere in the 128-256 range? That doesn't sound like a lot... I expect the issues we had with Switch storage from PS4/X1 ports to still be an issue for Switch 2/Dane from PS5/XS ports. However it should be easily sorted if you buy an additional memory card.
at this point, it's more a worry about transfer speed than volume. 512GB cards can be had rather inexpensively, but will Nintendo allow for usable speeds
OP
OP
Well, if Nintendo wants the DLSS model* to have VRR support, no firmware update can add VRR support, since HDMI 2.0b doesn't natively support VRR. (The Xbox One X (and the Xbox One S, although the Xbox One S uses HDMI 2.0a) supports VRR via AMD FreeSync.) Nintendo would need to swap the DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.0b converter chip on the OLED model's dock with at least a DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 converter chip in order to have VRR support.
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NVIDIA announces DLDSR (Deep Learning Dynamic Super Resolution), coming to GeForce drivers on January 14th - VideoCardz.com
NVIDIA responds to Radeon Super Resolution upscaling with Deep Learning Dynamic Super Resolution downscaling tech At CES 2022 AMD announced it is releasing a new feature based on FidelityFX Super Resolution called RSR (Radeon Super Resolution). The company confirmed that this technology will...
videocardz.com
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So what exactly is the difference between that and DLSS?NVIDIA announces DLDSR (Deep Learning Dynamic Super Resolution), coming to GeForce drivers on January 14th - VideoCardz.com
NVIDIA responds to Radeon Super Resolution upscaling with Deep Learning Dynamic Super Resolution downscaling tech At CES 2022 AMD announced it is releasing a new feature based on FidelityFX Super Resolution called RSR (Radeon Super Resolution). The company confirmed that this technology will...
this is usable for games that don't have DLSS. it's also an inverted DLSS, as you start from a higher resolution then scale down
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Oh it's downscaling, I missed that. Gotcha.
I get those terms like super sampling and super resolution confused.
NineTailSage
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The UE5 Matrix Experience definitely gave us a better idea of what's needed from the next Switch to have a similar game experience from either the gamecard media or internal storage.
Ok so I'm really dumb when it comes to this stuff, but what's the advantage of that? Is it to get a crisper image at your target resolution at the expense of slightly lower performance?
Thraktor
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Yeah, that's it. It's generally useful when you're playing an older game on a relatively powerful new PC, and you can easily run it at very high resolutions and framerates, so you might as well make use of that power for better image quality. Particularly if the game doesn't have very good anti-aliasing itself.
Oooh ok, I hadn't thought about it being used to smooth out edges. I do play an 11 year old MMO that runs at 400fps if I uncap my framerate, so I might give this new thing a go when it's released and see if I can get even better image quality. Thanks!
Anatole
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This is completely understandable to me, since different companies are not consistent about this at all. For example, with DLSS, I think most people usually associate the word ‘supersampling’ with rendering the image at a higher resolution than native, which is the opposite of what DLSS does; instead, it’s what DLDSR does. But Epic’s Temporal Super Resolution is a competitor to DLSS, not DLDSR…
I am guessing that Nvidia’s terminology is correct in a technical sense for which someone on the team is a stickler. For example, if supersampling is defined as using more than one sample per pixel to render the scene, then DLSS is technically supersampling in a temporal sense, where the information is gathered across multiple frames. And if superresolution is defined as using information sampled at a higher sampling rate to reconstruct the scene accurately at a lower sampling rate, then I think Nvidia’s definition is correct there too. It’s just not necessarily going to agree with the conventions that any other company is using.
D
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One thing and I think it was brought up earlier in the thread (or elsewhere), is I wonder if Nintendo will ultimately delay the release of the 64GB cartridges until after Dane releases. I remember they were supposed to have been released back in 2019/2020, but then... Well, COVID-19 hit and likely threw everything off track. It would definitely help alleviate games that have space concerns if they can get those out there (though I understand costs on the 32GB are still a bit high, though wonder if the price had dropped since a few years back or not...).
Another thing I've wondered if Developers have inquired at Nintendo is about having multiple cards to install data to the system for unusually large games. We know the system can "install" games, or create multiple entries per-one game cartridge, so I'm wondering if a system with multiple cards (one being an install card, other data/play card) would be feasible...?
Either way, just some random thoughts. Not entirely specific to Dane, but wonder if it's something that Nintendo has explored on Switch and Dane...
Another thing I've wondered if Developers have inquired at Nintendo is about having multiple cards to install data to the system for unusually large games. We know the system can "install" games, or create multiple entries per-one game cartridge, so I'm wondering if a system with multiple cards (one being an install card, other data/play card) would be feasible...?
Either way, just some random thoughts. Not entirely specific to Dane, but wonder if it's something that Nintendo has explored on Switch and Dane...
According to that chart, it does support static hdr. Just not dynamic. I don’t know if that’s a dealbreaker.
Edit: misread your post.
I don’t know if vrr is a dealbreaker at this point though. The most important spec for future proofing imo is 4k 60hz.
Vanillalite
Bob-omb
Seems expensive vs just requiring an extra download. I also see no reason to delay the 64 gig carts. I mean it’s just an extra option. I’d assume they’d only get them if they were sure they were needed anyways.
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While I've since resigned myself to accepting the newly updated HDMI port won't necessarily point towards Netflix streaming in 4K for all Switch consoles that use the new dock, it still seems near insulting that despite having a dedicated LAN port doesn't increase download speeds significantly to make its use worthwhile. It sure won't improve my Smash Bros matchmaking to also only connect with people using wired internet too, so I'm still wholly dependant on who has the worst WiFi connection.
I understand as MVG states that it is sharing bandwidth with USB-C, but then aren't there other possible workarounds? What would need to be done to improve WiFi connection up/down speeds from Nintendo's servers when downloading large games so it's not kneecapped at a paltry 70Mbps?
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Zhuge mentions that the existence of Series S helped mitigate chip shortage issues for Microsoft in the new generation - i.e. they were able to produce more units by having two SKUs.
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Why would this happen? Is there something about the XSX build specifically that's more limited?
And wouldn't the same apply for Nintendo with new hardware? They might not produce as much 'Dane' Switch as they'd want, but it's offset by the existing Switch model supporting all software, being advertised as part of the same product line, and being far better stocked.
Tweet:
Why would this happen? Is there something about the XSX build specifically that's more limited?
And wouldn't the same apply for Nintendo with new hardware? They might not produce as much 'Dane' Switch as they'd want, but it's offset by the existing Switch model supporting all software, being advertised as part of the same product line, and being far better stocked.
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XSX has a much bigger SoC IIRC. Plus a disk drive.
The bigger SoC likely has worse yields and also requires more raw materials, making it harder to produce more with the same component supply.
Alovon11
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Well, the problem there is the ramp down of 16nm and TX1.
Now what they could do is a derivation of MSoft's idea and have a Docked-only Switch with 16SMs and a Hybrid with 8SMs which would likely see benefits similar to what Msoft did with the Series S|X on supply.
But because Dane (8SMs) will be not that big anyway it likely is unessecary.
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Only 128GB to be honest. I’m not confident in 256, especially a specific kind of storage that is also 256GB. Some games are huge on the PS4+XB1 for different reasons. Control is like 25GB on the PS5 while nearly double on the PS4.
It’s more nuanced and has to be considered that, it can be movies/cutscenes that take up a lot of space, repeats that can be cut down with the faster SSDs, etc. And it’s up to the developer in how they deliver the title and make use of the other parts of the hardware to get it to be smaller.
There are newer compression and decompression tools that these consoles make use of in order to deliver a smaller package of what would otherwise be a gargantuan game.
CoD I will say is the exception, not the norm, to this as it does not consider storage space whatsoever and Activision-Blizzard does not even try to compress the title at all.
My comment was mostly going by what Mark Cerny who asked what I assume is multiple dev studios and companies, and averaged it to be 1GB/s of speeds which is…. very achievable with UFS lol
IMO, while VRR would be great to have, it would be awkward if VRR is only available during docked but not in handheld mode at all. There aren’t really 720p screens from Samsung with VRR support that I know of. I think it’s the weird resolutions like 1140p screens and a AR of 19:9 or what have you that support VRR and a 90Hz display with VRR.
So if Nintendo were to get a 720p OLED or even a 1080p (that personally they don’t need, but that’s for another day) with VRR it would have to be a special made order and they may be the only customer for that.
The Series S uses a die that is physically smaller than the Series X (197mm^2 vs 360mm^2)
And uses less RAM modules:
Series X:
And a smaller PCB, everything about it is just smaller and more manageable.
Dane would presumably be even “easier” to produce because it would be even smaller and use less than the Series S.
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Listening to Last of the Nintendogs and Jeff Grubb sounds like he's no longer on board with the idea of something arriving in 2022.
It sounds speculative, but figured I'd point it out as he's one of the 'sources' mentioned that was in support of something for 2022.
It sounds speculative, but figured I'd point it out as he's one of the 'sources' mentioned that was in support of something for 2022.
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I could be mistaken here, but Foveated rendering is an implementation of what VRS is to a degree, but with Foveated rendering it adds others functions that usually pair well to include eye tracking to make sure it is done correctly based on where the eye is looking for things like VR. VRS can be done independently of the eye position and takes advantage of some areas that don’t need to be rendered at the full scope for the display and saves GPU resources for other more demanding things, but as mentioned does not depend on the eye placement to actually take advantage of that.
The technique is similar, but foveated rendering just seems more of something targeted at the peripheral, while VRS is targeting everything on display, but they aren’t different, just a different execution of the same function: not rendering every pixel at once when it isn’t needed.
Speaking of, I’m curious to see a ML/AI-accelerated implementation of VRS that works dynamically with the game at all times.
I wasn’t expecting 2022 anyway.
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What exactly did he say, for those who can't really watch a video?
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Quick summary: They're responding to recent articles on the analyst expecting there will be no Switch Pro, and that we'll see a 2024 Switch successor. Both Mike and Jeff both think that the ship has sailed for a Switch Pro, so whatever we see next is a Switch 2 / 'successor'. Jeff expects that we start to see very early rumblings later this year, and something more concrete in 2023.
As I said, it sounds speculative. Jeff does have a lot of connections, but this doesn't come off like he's reporting anything from a trusted source.
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I don't really see why not? I wouldn’t bet money on it, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable.
With the information we have now, it's not like other guesses are any more (or less) sensible. Seems to be little to no news has come about since the OLED model was revealed, and back then most, including Grubb, were content in assuming we could still see something in 2022.
We're less than two weeks into the year. Until we’re further in the year, or we get more confident reporting from Bloomberg, Nate or otherwise, 2022 should still be fair game. I take Grubb’s change in tone as him having not heard anything, and being a bit pessimistic again.
Alovon11
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For me my cutoff for 2022 is May.
As if Dane isn't taped out by then then it can't meet a November launch reasonably
(Based on the March to September timing for Tape out to Release for GA102, the arguably tightest timing they can do for a console Tape-out to release is May to November)
We have to remember that the actual production to release timelines for the PS5 and Seires S|X weren't the longest, and Dane can make it out with a shorter period of time due to the die size being smaller than even the Series S's along with it being on ARM
OP
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Speaking of, Sony has confirmed to Bloomberg that Sony will continue manufacturing PlayStation 4 consoles throughout 2022 due to the shortage of PlayStation 5 consoles. So I think the cross-gen period for the current-gen consoles (PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S), as well as the DLSS model*, will last much longer than people would have anticipated.
Anyway, Jordan Klein, an analyst from Mizuho Securities USA Inc., has apparently heard from an Inspur executive that AMD's increasing the price for datacentre customers by 10-30% in 2022.
Although I still believe Nintendo and Nvidia are probably going to use Samsung's 8N process node to fabricate Dane, in a hypothetical scenario where Nintendo and Nvidia decide to use an advanced process nodes from TSMC (TSMC's N7 process node or more advanced) to fabricate Dane, I can see the DLSS model*'s MSRP be higher than people would have anticipated (≥$449.99).
Dekuman
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do we have any updates on its status? i think the last i read about this was last year 10-12 months ago, at the height of the Pro rumors months before Switch OLED was revealed and at that time, the insiders said it wasn't taped out.
Alovon11
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Nothing new but I suspect it may be soonish or have already happened with NVIDIA keeping it on the down low due to them releasing Orin literally now.
Again though, we have until May until it's firmly out of 2022 release window imho.
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Chip shortages and they’re producing more PS4s
PedroNavajas
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Aparently, Samsung's 4nm is a bust:
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Ice Universe is citing a Clién post in the Weibo post.
But anyway, assuming there are grains of truth to the rumours, Samsung's 4LPE process node seems to be only part of the reason for Samsung having issues with the Exynos 2200(?) since the Clién post mentioned that Samsung Foundry managed to achieve Qualcomm's targeted frequencies for the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1, albeit using Samsung's 4LPX process node, which is apparently a custom variation of Samsung's 5LPP process node, but at the cost of higher thermals and power consumption. Samsung's poor implementation of Arm's CPU IP and AMD's GPU IP seems to be another reason why Samsung's having issues with the Exynos 2200(?).
Speaking of Ice Universe, apparently Samsung initially targeted the mobile RDNA 2 GPU on the Exynos 2200(?) to run at a frequency at 1.9 GHz. But since 1.9 GHz apparently cause the Exynos 2200(?) to be very hot, Samsung apparently decreased the frequency of the mobile RDNA 2 GPU incrementally from 1.9 GHz to 1.29 GHz, although Samsung may increase the frequency to 1.49 GHz, but at the cost of higher thermals, and probably high power consumption.
I personally think a GPU frequency of 1.9 GHz is extremely excessive for a smartphone SoC, especially with cooling solutions for smartphones being severely restricted by the form factor of smartphones.
And I'm very confident the max GPU frequency for Dane won't be anywhere near 1.9 GHz. Perhaps a max GPU frequency of 1.5 GHz for Dane is possible in the absolute best case scenario.
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PedroNavajas
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This video is a treasure of mobile SoC performance data. Way better than anandtech.
According to their numbers, the A15 is consuming 3.9W on Genshin Impact, middle settings, for 6.3W in 8 Gen 1 and 5.7W on the 888. For comparison, Mariko is about 3W peak.
On full load (Aztec Ruin), the A15 is consuming 7.9 W, 8 Gen 1 is at 11.2W and 9W on the 888.
According to their numbers, the A15 is consuming 3.9W on Genshin Impact, middle settings, for 6.3W in 8 Gen 1 and 5.7W on the 888. For comparison, Mariko is about 3W peak.
On full load (Aztec Ruin), the A15 is consuming 7.9 W, 8 Gen 1 is at 11.2W and 9W on the 888.
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Z0m3le
Bob-omb
It was the professional who did the die shot, so very credible IMO.
You can't compare a mobile SoC with a 5G modem on it, and passively cooled, running half the sustained wattage, to an SoC that would be in a Switch successor. I do agree clocks won't be that high, in fact I believe they could be as low as 1GHz for the GPU when docked, but if it has 1024 Cuda Cores, that is still around 2TFLOPs.
Sorry I haven't been around as much, to be honest, I've lost some interest in speculation around the game industry, mostly because covid has caused serious delays and uncertainty that make speculation far less accurate, even based on some internal data from these companies. Things are very fluid right now. We need a solid direct with some key things, like seeing 2022 for the Zelda game again, also hearing anything about Dane would be nice at this point.
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Hosermess
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I think I recall it only being 1 person who said he had heard there was a problem with the tape out or something, but I could be wrong. And that person went on to declare he wouldn't be sharing any new knowledge he would potentially come across, which is a bummer, but understandable.
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I wasn't trying to compare Dane with the Exynos 2200(?).
I was simply trying to say that I believe the GPU on Dane won't come close to running at a frequency of 1.9 GHz for thermal, power consumption, and yield reasons.
In fact, the reason I mentioned that I believe that 1.5 GHz is perhaps the max frequency for the GPU in Dane in the absolute best case scenario is that the DLSS model* will most certainly have a much more robust cooling system compared to the smartphones equipped with the Exynos 2200(?); and assuming that Dane uses the Cortex-A78C for the CPU, the CPU on Dane will probably be running at significantly lower frequencies compared to at least the high-performance CPU cores (the Cortex-X2 and the Cortex-A710) on the Exynos 2200(?). (I imagine at the minimum of ~1.2 GHz.)
The GPU on Jetson AGX Xavier can boost up as high as 1.377 GHz; and I imagine the GPU of Dane running at a max frequency of 1.5 GHz in the absolute best case scenario isn't too far fetched, since I imagine Samsung's 8N process node is a good deal more performant and power efficient in comparison to TSMC's 12FFN process node, as well as taking into consideration a more robust cooling system and the CPU on Dane running at frequencies well below 2 GHz.
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It seems so in that different parts of an image get rendered at different quality, but foveated is based on where it detects the eye is actually looking whereas with variable rate shading I guess they go with where they think you'll be paying attention? From the very simple examples of VRS I've seen it seems analogous to how textures and models go to lower quality when they're off in the distance.
Dekuman
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Happy new year. I enjoy reading your insights but understand your lack of motivation to post more
I really hope we get more concrete news this year and the thing we've been speculating on since 2020 is revealed sometime soon (late 22 or 23 at the latest)
yes
Alovon11
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Well, an October 2022 release would mean the latest tape-out date of Dane would be in April.
So they could announce the system right after their FY 2021 ends alongside Dane's Tape-out.
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Something that I wanted to point out for a while but wasn't sure if it was right or not, but there is a possibility that the Dane name is not for the final silicon, but for the devkit silicon that comes before the final silicon, which is not farfetch'd.
PS5 had codenames for two chips at one point in time if I remember right, the Ariel soc which was in the early devkits with Navi-based GPUs, while the final devkits had the Oberon which was with the unique Navi-based uArch in the PS5 that has the actual final hardware features. Ariel was also taped out along with Oberon for its use case, and Oberon is what we see in the case of the PS5 APU. Before Ariel the devkits were based off of the PS4 Pro.
I do not think banking on "Dane" getting taped out actually means that the final hardware will come out soon, it could just as equally be for something like the pre-final silicon codename while they are still hard at work with the actual final silicon.
Just to put that out there.
Series X has Dante I think but its final name was Scarlett for the soc.
It's just odd for there not to be 2 codenames for silicon that pertains to Nintendo and only one name exists right now.
this is only based on what I remember from online discussion.
PS5 had codenames for two chips at one point in time if I remember right, the Ariel soc which was in the early devkits with Navi-based GPUs, while the final devkits had the Oberon which was with the unique Navi-based uArch in the PS5 that has the actual final hardware features. Ariel was also taped out along with Oberon for its use case, and Oberon is what we see in the case of the PS5 APU. Before Ariel the devkits were based off of the PS4 Pro.
I do not think banking on "Dane" getting taped out actually means that the final hardware will come out soon, it could just as equally be for something like the pre-final silicon codename while they are still hard at work with the actual final silicon.
Just to put that out there.
Series X has Dante I think but its final name was Scarlett for the soc.
It's just odd for there not to be 2 codenames for silicon that pertains to Nintendo and only one name exists right now.
this is only based on what I remember from online discussion.
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What is Dane?
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The rumoured codename for the DLSS model*'s SoC.
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Like for Switch 2?
Edit: Ohh right, I forgot about Dane. I remember hearing about it.
If there is no Switch Pro then it should be for Switch 2, correct?
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