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StarTopic Xenoblade 3 |ST| Σ Become One

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BradenAndEggs said:
I've never watched a Dunkey video, but I don't normally gravitate toward content that makes fun of/tears down other content. Bad vibes.
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The cinemasinsification of literally everything is the great content plague of our time (and neatly ties into everything else that is bad in the world right now).
 
I enjoy Dunkey in general, but his opinion on JRPGs, like Scott the Woz's, isn't worth anything since they actively don't like the genre and have very little insight or perspective worth wasting your time on.

I do agree that cinemasins and the nostalgia critic are a 1-2 punch of the worst things to happen to film (and in general) media literacy. Devolving reviews and analysis into how many "jokes" you can make.
 
It's not a review/dunkview, and honestly, the video wasn't really bad in terms of shitting on the game. I assume he actually enjoyed the it judging by the fact that he finished the game + a bunch of side-quests. If anything, I thought the video was very boring and predictable. Bringing up the repeated combat dialogue lines is not the comedic apex he think it is.

Posting ending spoilers on his twitter, deleting it after an hour and then posting shit like "Oh seems like I made people mad with my video" when the majority were actually mad about him posting spoilers, is pretty bad though.
 
TheMoon said:
The cinemasinsification of literally everything is the great content plague of our time (and neatly ties into everything else that is bad in the world right now).
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Yeah, personally I prefer to spend all my energy hyping up and talking about things I do like and let the silence about the things I don't really enjoy be the "final word" on said content's "quality." I understand criticism has an important place in the evolution of art, but this doesn't seem to be the main priority of content like this. I'm not saying all criticism in the form of jokes isn't legitimate, but I find that content is always better when the jokes are made out of a genuine love of what they are lampooning.

BassForever said:
I enjoy Dunkey in general, but his opinion on JRPGs, like Scott the Woz's, isn't worth anything since they actively don't like the genre and have very little insight or perspective worth wasting your time on.
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One wonders why they would waste their time tearing down/making jokes about a genre they don't enjoy. That kind of content must be super popular. Different strokes I guess.

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I know this is all subjective as hell and different things work for different people, but the Xenoblade franchise's writing seems so earnest and optimistic. To reduce that to what appears to be a punchline video that (from what I hear) influences and weaponizes their fans just feels bad for some reason. I dunno.

Lame.
 
zumaddy said:
Dunkey's Xenoblade 3 review has end-game spoilers dropped with no warning, so watch out. It's also just generally irritating with lots of out-of-context lines made fun of. As someone who usually likes him I was rolling my eyes
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My biggest take away with the dunkey's video is that the entire discourse on xenoblade 2 and it's weebification of the series was completely worthless.
A ton of people had this idea that xenoblade 2 tone and "sexiness" gave a huge damage to the reputation of the series even if the game was a break out hit especially because of videos like dunkey and other opinion pieces that made fun of the game. Probably because they didn't want their series to be deemed weeb trash and the like and so they convinced themselves that the series needed a complete shift in tone to get back and prove those people that they were wrong, it was just a bad game but the rest of the series was serious business.
Then comes xenoblade 3 a game with a completely different tone than the second game and it still gets made fun of by dunkey and the likes.
The moral of the story is that we shouldn't give this much weight on other people's opinions, some people will just never resonate with a type of game (and even then it looks like dunkey appreciated xeno3 more than xeno2).
If someone says that a game or a series you like is bad or stupid or weeb shit it doesn't really matter; even if your favourite youtuber made a video to make fun of it, it's just a video, you can ignore it and move on with your life.
 
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DunningSmith said:
It's not a review/dunkview, and honestly, the video wasn't really bad in terms of shitting on the game. I assume he actually enjoyed the it judging by the fact that he finished the game + a bunch of side-quests. If anything, I thought the video was very boring and predictable. Bringing up the repeated combat dialogue lines is not the comedic apex he think it is.

Posting ending spoilers on his twitter, deleting it after an hour and then posting shit like "Oh seems like I made people mad with my video" when the majority were actually mad about him posting spoilers, is pretty bad though.
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Btw I'm definitely not defending the twitter post, that was just bad on his part. As far as spoiler in his video it's fine, he did the same thing with other games too like elden ring. If some people are that wary of spoilers they should not be watching any video on the game.
 
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Kartina said:
Btw I'm definitely not defending the twitter post, that was just bad on his part. As far as spoiler in his video it's fine, he did the same thing with other games too like elden ring. If you're that wary of spoilers you should not be watching any video on the game.
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I'm not sure what you mean, I was exclusively talking about his twitter spoiler.
 
DunningSmith said:
I'm not sure what you mean, I was exclusively talking about his twitter spoiler.
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Yeah it wasn't against you but just a general opinion of mine since I've seen some people criticize the video because of spoilers.
I completely agree with your post.


Edit: now that I'm reading my post I worded myself badly, it wasn't ment to be about you, I'll change it now
 
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Xenoblade 2 definitely didn't do the reputation of the series much good in some regards, but even leaving those issues aside, Xenoblade is a pretty janky series which would befuddle most people not into the JRPGs. Us fans are more than happy to discuss its convulted, fairly nonsensical plots and make memes about repeated voice lines, but with other gamers I can see why they'd be like 'Why am I hearing about the girl with the gall for the 50th time after a 10 minute cutscene about the power of friendship again?'

That being said, it does irritate me that people treat Xenoblade as a piece of low hanging fruit to not just poke fun at the series and its fans, but the JRPG genre in general. I mean, I could produce a 30 minute video about why I personally think Dark Souls-esque games are boring, infuriating slogs that I would rather eat broken glass than play through, but I don't because I know these games are beloved by loads of people so I don't pass judgement. I just acknowledge these games aren't for me. Would that others do the same, or heck, just be less critical in general and try to enjoy things more, jank and all.
 
The "fight" against JRPG started with anime finally breaking out in the US to the same degree it broke out in Europe 20 years ago.
Dumb teens pretending to be edgy and Scrimblo Bimblo salt on social media. Outside of this loud echo chamber, no one really cares.
 
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BradenAndEggs said:
One wonders why they would waste their time tearing down/making jokes about a genre they don't enjoy. That kind of content must be super popular. Different strokes I guess.
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FWIW, that’s not how Scott operates. He’s pretty clearly laid out why he doesn’t like RPGs, but beyond a stray joke or two he doesn’t tear down the genre at all.
 
Honestly, I've come to the revelation recently that the biggest reason why JRPG discourse is the way it is is that it there are 0 (or basically 0) JRPGs that target adults - it's all teens and children. It's the reason why themes are often as blunt as a hammer and you have cheesy stuff like "the power of friendship" come up a lot. The most adult (note that this does not mean mature) JRPGs I can think of are the upcoming FFXVI, a game that is seemingly this close to abandoning the genre entirely, and SMT, and even that's pretty debatable.

EDIT: Should clarify I meant "there are 0 (or basically 0) JRPGs currently coming out that target adults"
 
My issue is when folks who haven't played the game (and to be honest, may never intend to) take these videos as a serious impression of the game. Which does happen. It's easier to listen to and form an opinion from a quick attention-grabbing video packed with funny moments and soundbites. Sometimes people don't care enough to watch an actual review for a game they might not be interested in in the first place.

e.g. Dunkey's BotW video has 21 million videos, that video has absolutely convinced a subset of people to try that game. Even when it isn't labelled a 'dunkview'.

XB3 is like the, second JRPG I've ever played beyond the intro. The first was Xenoblade 1. I always assumed JRPG's, and RPGs, were never 'for me' as a genre. I never thought I'd enjoy these wild tropes and stat calcs. (Pokemon is usually excluded from these discussions so I'm doing that here for the sake of context, but even then, I usually button mash through Pokemon and ignore the story.)

But I took Xenoblade rather sincerely, it really pulled me in. Yes, there's a lot of wacky anime tropes in these games. But in good anime, if you care about the characters and the performances are good, these moments are either swelling and powerful, or goofy and fun. It can be disappointing to read comments that interpret the goofy out-of-context moments as indicative of the entire game.

People play games for different reasons, of course. At least I'm glad I was able to power through my own preconceptions to enjoy this wonderful game.
 
Paxie said:
Honestly, I've come to the revelation recently that the biggest reason why JRPG discourse is the way it is is that it there are 0 (or basically 0) JRPGs that target adults - it's all teens and children. It's the reason why themes are often as blunt as a hammer and you have cheesy stuff like "the power of friendship" come up a lot. The most adult (note that this does not mean mature) JRPGs I can think of are the upcoming FFXVI, a game that is seemingly this close to abandoning the genre entirely, and SMT, and even that's pretty debatable.

EDIT: Should clarify I meant "there are 0 (or basically 0) JRPGs currently coming out that target adults"
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Feel like this discussion is getting dangerously close to my "Why JRPGs are the video game genre that falls further short of its potential than any other" opinion here. Which never goes down well, lol. I just want one JRPG about adults that speak like adults and act like adults, damn it. No killing god, no "rule of cool", no regurgitated stock trope characters.

As for XC3, I actually dropped it for the last 2 weeks, but now I'm determined to go back and finish it. I was in chapter 7, I have to be close. I don't like the idea of "wasting" 80 hours of gameplay when the end is right there.

But boy, if you told me that a new Xenoblade game would come out and I'd drop it before the end out of pure disinterest in the story, I'd have never believed you. XC2 was like a page-turner to me by the end, I was staying up till 5am to find out what would happen.
 
Paxie said:
Honestly, I've come to the revelation recently that the biggest reason why JRPG discourse is the way it is is that it there are 0 (or basically 0) JRPGs that target adults - it's all teens and children. It's the reason why themes are often as blunt as a hammer and you have cheesy stuff like "the power of friendship" come up a lot. The most adult (note that this does not mean mature) JRPGs I can think of are the upcoming FFXVI, a game that is seemingly this close to abandoning the genre entirely, and SMT, and even that's pretty debatable.

EDIT: Should clarify I meant "there are 0 (or basically 0) JRPGs currently coming out that target adults"
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I don't think the widespread JRPG focus on optimism and earnestness in the face of more "adult" content from other genres is a bad thing. I don't think focusing on using human connections to overcome adversity and focusing on earnestness is quite as "immature" as some might think.

Sure there's goofiness to be had, but I don't think the fun and focus on youth should completely taint the whole genre for some people like it does. Everyone loves different stuff, but sometimes it seems we are afraid of our own sincerity.

Dismissing some of these story elements as the "power of friendship" is as reductive to me as dismissing some of the latest AAA 3rd-person action adventure games as "edgy."

All that to say I don't really want to live in a world where something as sincere and optimistic as Xenoblade is immediately dismissed as "immature."
 
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BradenAndEggs said:
I don't think the widespread JRPG's focus on optimism and earnestness in the face of more "adult" content from other genres is a bad thing. I don't think focusing on using human connections to overcome adversity and focusing on earnestness is quite as "immature" as some might think.

Sure there's goofiness to be had, but I don't think the fun and focus on youth should completely taint the whole genre for some people like it does. Everyone loves different stuff, but sometimes it seems we are afraid of our own sincerity.

Dismissing some of these story elements as the "power of friendship" is as reductive to me as dismissing some of the latest AAA 3rd-person action adventure games as "edgy."

All that to say I don't really want to live in a world where something as sincere and optimistic as Xenoblade is immediately dismissed as "immature."
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I agree. I'm more speaking based on my observations of other people that a major mismatch in demographics is why it gets so cynical with JRPGs specifically; people grew up on them and years later, they find out they essentially outgrew the entire genre but still try to interface with games they hope to love. It's a perfect recipe to get a lot of people jaded against youth-oriented writing.
 
BradenAndEggs said:
I don't think the widespread JRPG's focus on optimism and earnestness in the face of more "adult" content from other genres is a bad thing. I don't think focusing on using human connections to overcome adversity and focusing on earnestness is quite as "immature" as some might think.

Sure there's goofiness to be had, but I don't think the fun and focus on youth should completely taint the whole genre for some people like it does. Everyone loves different stuff, but sometimes it seems we are afraid of our own sincerity.

Dismissing some of these story elements as the "power of friendship" is as reductive to me as dismissing some of the latest AAA 3rd-person action adventure games as "edgy."

All that to say I don't really want to live in a world where something as sincere and optimistic as Xenoblade is immediately dismissed as "immature."
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I'm 100% in on your point that in the highly cynical world and social media environment we live in, earnestness, sincerity and a sense of optimism have been devalued in a way they shouldn't be, and that there's great merit to storytelling that's earnest and sincere. Love that point, and I do love that about JRPGs.

But I'd argue that the immaturity criticism of JRPGs has more to do with the lack of subtlety with which the themes are repeatedly whacked over your head, not the fact that they're intrinsically earnest or sincere. It's the lack of brevity or editing in most cutscenes. It's the simplicity and "tropey-ness" of the characters and their sub-adolescent relationships, the hollow nature of most villains' motivations etc. The overlong pauses between a lot of dialogue to make sure children can follow along. To say the genre is written off by its critics because it is earnest and sincere doesn't quite hit the mark for me.
 
Anyways after finishing the main story last night and having had time to collect my thoughts, here is my full appraisal of the game.

I'll leave the story analysis for a seperate post in the spoiler thread, as I still have a few hero missions to finish first, but overall I enjoyed it a lot. Some genuinely gobsmacking moments interlaced with a good ongoing mystery as to why the world is the way it is, I was engaged throughout, though it did lose some steam towards the end I feel, and I think some of the finer plot points could have been explained a whole lot better (not sure whether this was a translation issue or whether a deliberate decision to keep things vague). Still, it was a worthy follow up to the previous two games. This was largely helped by what is probably the best cast the series has seen yet. The six main characters were all distinct and engaging, and unlocking the varied heroes to accompany them was a treat.

Which leads me onto one new feature I really liked. The job system. I really enjoyed the continuous unlocking and powering up of new combat styles and skills by mixing and matching roles (scratched something of a Golden Sun itch for me there). I loved working my way through the hero lists and unlocking them and their abilities one by one. Feels like this is what the Xenoblade 2 Blade system should have been like; it's a much fairer unlocking system than relying on RNG. A slight shame that its a bit unbalanced, and if you overlevel, it can bring progression to a screeching halt. In fact overlevelling is a fairly big problem here. I stopped awarding myself bonus XP about halfway through and I still went into the final fight massively overlevelled.

Fortunately the combat was fantastic whatever level you were at; best Xenoblade has ever been for me. With so many job roles to mix and match with it, each with their own features and playstyle, you never felt like things were getting too repetitive. The Ouroburos transformations were fun to use, if a bit superfluous given how OP Chain Attacks are in this game. I did miss the risk vs reward dilemma chain attacks provided from the first two games, as many times it felt like long battles were a long grind to get to chain attack level, and then you curbstomp them. Thankfully this didn't apply to the key boss battles, but even so on normal difficulty you could generally bulldoze your way through using most combinations of gems, accessories and job roles. Would be keen to try again on Hard sometime to see how that affects things.

Presentation wise is where 3 really shines however. It has a gorgeous artstyle and the character design across the board is massively improved. Thoroughly enjoyed the voice cast here (especially Eunie, her voice actress conveyed the '11:38PM pub brawl down the Rose and Crown pub in Croydon' energy expertly) Traversing the world finding elite enemies and hidden supply crates was a joy. I'm amazed at how Monolith were able to have so many characters onscreen engaging in so many battles without things spluttering to a halt. And the music! Oh my days it's gorgeous. So many amazing themes that remain in my head. If it doesn't sweep the sountrack of the year awards come December the industry needs to clear its ears out.

Couple of minor niggles, such as how the sidequests were unfulfilling (fast travel here, collect item, beat tough monster, fast travel back, done) and the colony affinity mechanic seemed a bit superfluous. But the Hero and their subsequent ascension quests made up for this big time by providing meaty, emotional side quests the likes of which the series has needed for a while.

But overall this was a superb entry in the series, the best since the first IMO, and as I said earlier, if this is the game that means gamers can stop being ever so snooty and begin to take this franchise seriously, then it's well deserved. Certainly will be my GOTY unless something else really knocks my socks off.
 
Some y’all care way too much about what some dude who caricatures black folk‘s accent for funny thinks. Xenoblade will outlast most YouTuber’s careers lol. Have ya’ll not noticed there isn’t many YouTubers over 35? The scale is even more aggressive for humor based channels. They become irrelevant as soon as their audience pass 18 (Jeffree star, Shane Dawson, Smosh, etc). His time is up, it is up…soon. The survivors are usually information non-personality based channels. Satirical/joke and influencer/personality channels last about as long as a wet fart. They burn brightly to the young audience but also crumble fast. That man probably won’t be around for Xenoblade 4 or whatever Monolith is cooking up next.

Xenoblade as a brand has been around for over a decade now and is thriving bigger than ever thanks to XC2. No amount of hate videos will deter people from getting into the series as you can see by the yearly sales lol.

It’s literally free marketing. I’d rather they talk about the game (bad or good) than full avoidance which actually happened to XC1 and X. Mainstream personality channels/media avoided those games like a plague and well they flopped. XC2‘s “controversy” helped the IP a lot more than you think. Monolith made the absolute right choice. A game that make bold creative decision that is a huge contrast to Nintendo’s family friendly catalogue. The series came into public attention after that honestly. DE massively benefited from it, and now XC3.

Sometimes, any publicity really is good publicity.
 
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I'm on chapter 7 and I'm feeling like I might not even finish this game.
I suppose what drew me into Xenoblade 1's world was the fact that its story was simple and, more importantly, sparce. I guess it was just a byproduct of designing a game for the Wii, but both 2 and 3 feel so bloated and unnecessarily wordy while not really presenting anything anything more difficult with their narratives.

I don't really know if the story of a war-torn world was that important if the story and gameplay both suffer because of it. Gameplay-wise you only encounter similar-looking colonies, while story-wise most of the characters you meet aren't actually weird nazis despite the fact that they absolutely should be, considering how everyone grows up surrounded by propaganda in the world where you literally survive by killing.

The highest points are definitely the action scenes, which are all extremely cool and inventive. But the character scenes are samey and none of the interations are that great. While all characters have their moments, most of the time they feel like mouthpieces for the game's very simplistic philosophy. It feels like that scene from Revengeance half the time: characters fight more by arguing with each other. Except Revengeance knew it was dumb, and I'm not sure this game does. At least it's not as egregiously hypocritical about its own views as Persona 5, and I can actually agree with it. I'm just not sure I needed dozens of hours of cutscenes to get that war is bad and elites are all friendly.

It's also a bit weird to me how the game just forgot that it's an RPG. Some systems feel like an afterthought. There's barely any equipment and the economy is effectively useless. Also I don't think first two games were THAT easy to break by doing side-content?

I know this post is gonna annoy some people, but eh, maybe I'm just not into animes. I did enjoy some shonens, but it seems like JoJos and Fullmetal Alchemists might be a minority in the genre of sad fight teens.
 
Heron said:
I'm 100% in on your point that in the highly cynical world and social media environment we live in, earnestness, sincerity and a sense of optimism have been devalued in a way they shouldn't be, and that there's great merit to storytelling that's earnest and sincere. Love that point, and I do love that about JRPGs.

But I'd argue that the immaturity criticism of JRPGs has more to do with the lack of subtlety with which the themes are repeatedly whacked over your head, not the fact that they're intrinsically earnest or sincere. It's the lack of brevity or editing in most cutscenes. It's the simplicity and "tropey-ness" of the characters and their sub-adolescent relationships, the hollow nature of most villains' motivations etc. The overlong pauses between a lot of dialogue to make sure children can follow along. To say the genre is written off by its critics because it is earnest and sincere doesn't quite hit the mark for me.
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Critics praised TLOU grotesque violence as “good story telling”. How is twisting someone’s neck and torturing people subtle and sincere? Like I said, Game Of Thrones incest and pedophillia good. Japanime rpg bad. West good east bad. “Trophy-ness” and “Cliche” exist in different forms in different cultures and genres. Stories also come and go with time and nothing is truly original. JRPG “tropes” are called out more compared to the tropes in Western games. Just saying. I think a culture disconnect (or biased) might have something to do with it.
 
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Multiverse said:
Critics praised TLOU grotesque violence as “good story telling”. How is twisting someone’s neck and torturing people subtle and sincere? Like I said, Game Of Thrones incest and pedophillia good. Japanime rpg bad. West good east bad. “Trophy-ness” and “Cliche” exist in different forms in different cultures and genres. Stories also come and go with time and nothing is truly original. JRPG “tropes” are called out more compared to the tropes in Western games. Just saying. I think a culture disconnect (or biased) might have something to do with it.
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This post, while pretty incoherent and railing against a strawman rather than the points I made, is very funny to me because I actually spend a lot of time online dunking on shitty lazy zombie tropes and critising excessive use of gratuitious violence in games and other media. I also disliked TLOU2. Just a total swing and a miss, lol
 
Multiverse said:
Critics praised TLOU grotesque violence as “good story telling”. How is twisting someone’s neck and torturing people subtle and sincere? Like I said, Game Of Thrones incest and pedophillia good. Japanime rpg bad. West good east bad. “Trophy-ness” and “Cliche” exist in different forms in different cultures and genres. Stories also come and go with time and nothing is truly original. JRPG “tropes” are called out more compared to the tropes in Western games. Just saying. I think a culture disconnect (or biased) might have something to do with it.
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The game has a 89 aggregate score and is selling well, not sure why this sort of incoherent rambling is necessary. You'll live through one Youtuber shitting on a game you like for clicks it's not that bad.
 
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Heron said:
This post, while pretty incoherent and railing against a strawman rather than the points I made, is very funny to me because I actually spend a lot of time online dunking on shitty lazy zombie tropes and critising excessive use of gratuitious violence in games and other media. I also disliked TLOU2. Just a total swing and a miss, lol
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Should have made that point clearer than come here and claim JRPG is immature. Good to know you’re not ignoring some of the tropes in western media. Add military core to that list as well.
 
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There is something incredibly funny about someone criticizing the game's philosophy as "very simplistic", but at the same time misinterpreting the games theme/message as "war bad". Specially when the game is not even remotely subtile with its lesson.

Anyway, I wish people would stop using absolutely vacant/meaningless terms like "power of friendship" when engaging in media discussion. This stupid-ass term is almost as bad as describing something as "(too) anime". Literally could mean anything and nothing.
 
Heron said:
I'm 100% in on your point that in the highly cynical world and social media environment we live in, earnestness, sincerity and a sense of optimism have been devalued in a way they shouldn't be, and that there's great merit to storytelling that's earnest and sincere. Love that point, and I do love that about JRPGs.

But I'd argue that the immaturity criticism of JRPGs has more to do with the lack of subtlety with which the themes are repeatedly whacked over your head, not the fact that they're intrinsically earnest or sincere. It's the lack of brevity or editing in most cutscenes. It's the simplicity and "tropey-ness" of the characters and their sub-adolescent relationships, the hollow nature of most villains' motivations etc. The overlong pauses between a lot of dialogue to make sure children can follow along. To say the genre is written off by its critics because it is earnest and sincere doesn't quite hit the mark for me.
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The thing is, it really doesn't need to be this way.
The best children's media doesn't treat its audience like children. It doesn't talk down to them or patronise them. It expects them to understand things, because children are actually very good at understanding things, it's not their intuition that is underdeveloped. They don't need fuckin monologue upon monologue.

There's a Zelda game that shares the same Big Theme as this game, and it does a much better job of conveying that theme. Even though the expected audience reaches even lower, the subject matter is handled with more subtlety and "maturity" (for want of a better word) than in any of the Xenoblade games.
It's also reminiscent of a children's book series which, again, treats its audience with respect and talks to them as equals.

Don't get me wrong, I think this game was actually a huge improvement in prior entries in this department, but that's why it was even more disappointing when it kept... Doing The Thing. You'd get really powerful, moving character moments, and then a bunch of fuckin Saturday morning cartoon clownery. It's weird. It's really really weird. And I feel like a lot of the audience have just gotten used to this stuff. And maybe I have too, and when I say it does it better than the previous games, it's just because I can't even recognise the stupidity anymore after having immersed myself in it for hundreds of hours.

Which is why, actually, I DON'T think that people who don't like JRPGs should just shut up. JRPGS becoming ever more niche, only palatable for a declining number of people who have become inured to all sorts of frankly bad nonsense is not beneficial for the genre. There should be aspirations greater than simply playing towards the base, especially when the base can be, uhhh, what it is.
I'm not saying they should become third person character action games, or that the only way to tell their stories is ape Hollywood, or anything like that. I'm saying that the, for lack of a better term, "anime" (which, I don't even know what that word really means, but trust it will work as shorthand) style shouldn't be the only way to tell a JRPG story.
I think there's a lot to love about the strategic battle systems that these games have, that a much larger number of people might really enjoy, if they didn't come wrapped in a package of highly concentrated cringe.

Like, RE: Dunkey, the point that incredibly repetitive overworld/battle dialogue is annoying is low-hanging fruit, sure, but it's only low-hanging because if anything, it has only gotten worse in the ten plus years that Monolith has been making these games. Clearly long-time fans are not making the right complaints, so maybe that kind of outside feedback is valuable. Understand: I'm not saying it has no value or that nobody enjoys it, but I am saying that it's probably off-putting for a large enough amount of people that a simple option to just turn it off wouldn't go amiss.
 
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You know what's a really great game that uses the power of friendship well?
Bayonetta 1 and 2.
That's my post,
Xenoblade discourse continues to be unbearable and I'll just go back to play xeno3
 
Ma’am, ain’t no nobody is playing Zelda for the story. The series have been criticized for non-existent stories and what‘s left there is are weak basic male centric stories with a damsel in distress. Let’s not even talk about the “Zelda timeline”. It’s the butt of most of jokes.

JRPGs becoming ever more niche yeah but except Xenoblade as it keeps racking up sales and expanding the IPs reach. Each game is doing better than the last. Good for Xenoblade going against the odds.
 
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I don't mind at all when Dunkey dislikes something I like. I wish he wasn't as mean spirited about it as he can be but that's just a personal preference.

What annoys me is seeing a lot of people say the game is shit now cause of Dunkey making a vid on it where he makes fun. That kinda feels like it's against the spirit of Dunkey's own thoughts on game reviewers. You get to know the tastes of one person and see if they resonate with you or not, and that will inform how you interact with their videos dealing with genres they may not like.

Instead, it's like people who don't like jrpgs were just waiting for someone to make fun of it so they could all call it dogshit.

It's not a huge deal or anything. Just leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth I guess.
 
catonkatonk said:
The thing is, it really doesn't need to be this way.
The best children's media doesn't treat its audience like children. It doesn't talk down to them or patronise them. It expects them to understand things, because children are actually very good at understanding things, it's not their intuition that is underdeveloped. They don't need fuckin monologue upon monologue.

There's a Zelda game that shares the same Big Theme as this game, and it does a much better job of conveying that theme. Even though the expected audience reaches even lower, the subject matter is handled with more subtlety and "maturity" (for want of a better word) than in any of the Xenoblade games.
It's also reminiscent of a children's book series which, again, treats its audience with respect and talks to them as equals.
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Hard agree. If you can't have good writing in your game at least don't push bad writing all over it. Zelda does the minimum in relation to tell a story and it works miles better than whatever Monolith tries to work with Xenoblade. It lets the player fill the gaps because it treats the player as an intelligent being. Xenoblade however feels the need to tell you about absolutely everything, from the feelings of every character to remembering you four times an event that happened in the past. That's the same as not believing in the capacity of the player to fill any gap. It's ridiculous and ends causing those absurd moments when the party is being shot by some soldiers and they need to clarify that: "they see us as enemies!!". Don't you say?!

Said that, 80h in the game and I am going to complete it despite I think the writing and exposition in it is pure amateurishe. There are many other things that I believe it does trully great and for that reason I am enjoying it at the same time that it annoys me that after so many years they haven't evolved a bit in this department.
 
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Hot take: Xenoblade is awesome.

Are the games perfect? Hell no.
But for the most part their fantastic worlds, fun combat, epic narratives, likeable characters, and superb soundtracks make for a gaming experience quite unlike anything else out there, and I for one am deeply glad they exist, warts and all, for the adventures they take us on and the depth and diversity they bring to Nintendo's first party catalog.

If the price of entry to some of the most memorable virtual journeys I've ever taken is having to hear about how Sena is the girl with the gall or how it's Reyn time every 5 minutes, I'll take that with a smile.
 
The "JRPGs are for kids and teens and too unsubtle and immature" argument has a lot of the same energy as the "YA Literature is too immature and unsubtle" snobbery you see a lot. Is it true in some cases? Absolutely. But with YA Lit, especially these days, it's just a very vague and not-well-defined thing, and often not one aimed at young adults in particular (despite the name): It's more a 'flavor' and type of story, and sometimes just having a main character who's a teen or young adult themself is enough to get it shelved as "YA" (especially if you're a female author) despite being a very mature story. And YA gets a ton of backlash from people who think they're 'above it' and 'it's for kids' for basically no reason, and by people who usually have no idea what modern YA Lit even is.

But JRPGs and YA Lit have a lot in common: They tend to focus a lot more on character emotions, earnestness, sincerity, and optimism. They can be far less subtle, yes, but that also often lets them have characters that actually FEEL things and express those emotions and have that be the driving factor in events. And, to be quite honest, a lot of people really want and are drawn to more straightforward, emotional, sincere stories, especially with how cynical and bleak so much is these days (especially in the 'prestige TV' era). And that has nothing to do with your age or maturity.
 
I dunno if this is very accurate, but I've heard for years that the reason Japanese manga/anime/games stories tend to focus on high school or YA fantasy stuff is because the relatively strict work culture requires such a drastic shift in lifestyle that it leaves the high school years as being this sort of idyllic time. Like it's the only timeframe where adventures and fantasies and the freedom to chase them were still possible, and is the timeframe adults tend to fantasize about returning to.

Again, not sure how accurate that is and I hope it's not an unfair categorization but I've heard it over the years in regards to why all this stuff seems to focus on a specific age group.

I'd say it's similar to how in the States we tend to focus on the 20s and 30s as an idyllic time where we're experiencing independence for the first time and so a TON of shows and movies revolve around people in that age group and the experiences around that timeframe.

I hope I'm not making all this worse. LOL
 
chocolate_supra said:
I dunno if this is very accurate, but I've heard for years that the reason Japanese manga/anime/games stories tend to focus on high school or YA fantasy stuff is because the relatively strict work culture requires such a drastic shift in lifestyle that it leaves the high school years as being this sort of idyllic time. Like it's the only timeframe where adventures and fantasies and the freedom to chase them were still possible, and is the timeframe adults tend to fantasize about returning to.

Again, not sure how accurate that is and I hope it's not an unfair categorization but I've heard it over the years in regards to why all this stuff seems to focus on a specific age group.

I'd say it's similar to how in the States we tend to focus on the 20s and 30s as an idyllic time where we're experiencing independence for the first time and so a TON of shows and movies revolve around people in that age group and the experiences around that timeframe.

I hope I'm not making all this worse. LOL
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In this case, we actually have a statement directly from Takahashi on the age range:
We humans have a life span of 70 to 80 years, and for some people, 90 years or more. But I have wondered how our perception of life would change if our lifetimes were shorter. So, if I simply set the life span to 10 years, I thought about which decade of life I should choose. Looking back on my own experience, I think that the formative years for my personality were between the ages of around 0 to 10, but I also think that the most influential period for something like my outlook on life was between the ages of 10 and 20, the years when people are most impressionable. It seems to me that, while they are both 10 years in length, it was a vulnerable period when I was exposed to many things, took on challenges, and created things as well, and my values and ways of thinking changed drastically. That is why I set the main characters to this period in their lives.
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Of course, he's answering a question on why the 10 year cycle as a whole was centered where it was, not the party themselves (who are all 18-19 in terms of maturity). But a lot of what he's describing is associated with college kids and recent grads in the west, so I think there's some merit to what you're saying.
 
Beat the last superboss today, so I think I'm pretty much done with the game for now. I don't have the patience to grind everyone's classes to level 20 at the moment. I'm waiting to see if the DLC will be offered as a physical copy like Torna was, and then I'll probably jump back in to the challenge mode and such. Played about 140ish hours, which is enough to be 5th on my Switch most played list (after ACNH, Xenoblade 2, Splatoon 2, and FE: Three Houses, and right before Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition).
 
Zeal543 said:
Not really, a ton of jrpgs series had their best sellers ever this gen
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Ma’am, It’s sarcasm to that other post. It’s the same type of post preaching anime is niche and bad. When in actuality, the medium has grown and expand a lot in recent years seeping into different forms of entertainment from movies to games and to social media. I’d like to thank K-Pop as well. More cultures are seeping into mainstream on a global scale and that creates tolerance and understanding. That’s needed because so many people view things under certain lens including critics and journalists.

This warped view affects not just the media (which has influence on consumer) but the consumer themselves. As much as I don’t like Genshin as a game, it did a lot of cultural work. People being exposed to more quirky cultures not their own, thus making people more willing to spend more on foreign games or anime style games. Fortnite/Epic is also helping by having more anime collab breaking down cultural barriers. Honestly, it is not just video games. I feel like foreign movies (including anime movies) are doing better than ever. We’re at a point where games and movies, etc need not to warp themselves to appeal to the “global” standard shall I say “west” standard but are accepted as is. Anime “cringe” is becoming way and way less cringe as time goes on as the perception shifted.

Xenoblade having more appealing anime art style at this time is indirectly benefiting from this.
 
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That's an impressive set of strawmen you're knocking down there.
Don't see anyone complaining about the art style of Xenoblade 3.

I do see complaints about, for example, Consul X. Didn't realise that Saturday morning cartoon villains are a form of cultural exchange.

The actual example of "good writing for media that is consumed by children" that I personally used is Zelda, and I stand by it. Zelda is Japanese. It's "anime".
The problem isn't cultural. The problem is that the writers of Xenoblade have an image of their target audience in mind, and that image is of a dribbling idiot. Which is in contrast to the story that they seem passionately intent on telling. It's just weird. Not "Japanese culture is strange to me" weird. More, "Stanley Kubrick is forced to direct an episode of Teenage Mutant Heroes" weird.
 
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Zelda has always been west pandering until BOTW that shifted to more Japanese centric inclduing art style.

I thought everyone knows this? The point isn’t just art style but it’s one part of the whole package. I don’t need to explain this. There are media that are universal that’s true, but there’re also those which are culturally afflicted including art styles and writing styles. Anime games or Jrpgs tend to come a with certain style of writing or humor that might not translate well in the west. It’s part of the package. Why do I even need to explain this?

People‘s tolerance towards them and perception of what’s “good” or ”bad” depends on their exposure to said cultures. The problem is absolutely cultural. And the problem isn’t Xenoblade writing. The writing is no different from the barrage of anime shows airing on crunchyroll. That‘s their intent and that’s what they are going for. Not Helmet not Shakespeare but anime. Do you like anime?

Xenoblade 3 is
Anti-war
Anti-capitalist
Pro-community
Pro-open borders
Anti-government
Anti-aurhoritarianism
Anti-eugenics
All the characters are multifaceted with growth and character arcs. Even the npcs have arcs and contribute to the theme of the story. Any other Nintendo IPs with this level of writing?

Anyways, I’m repeating the same points here. Also, never in my life heard anyone praised Zelda writing until I come here chile… the more you know. I think I’m about to hear how Mario writing is good next I fear.
 
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I’m going for max affinity with every colony/location and I’m having trouble finding one collectible for a collectopedia card, the Metallothane Jelly for Selfifi. I tried the guides linked here and googled around and the only mention of it was a Gamefaqs post that said the Li Garte Fabricator. I’ve done it like 20 times now and haven’t gotten one. Does anyone know if this is the right spot?

Edit: Googling gave me the other Nopon Caravan collectopedia card I’m missing has as item that actually can’t be collected in the game at the moment?? Don’t bother with Loloka’s card, you can’t acquire the Gogol Vuaga item. The item is not attached to any Gogol. Wasted like 30 minutes here lol.

Edit 2: Well in hunting for collectopedia stuff, I acquired enough other stuff to fill out a previously filled card to get my final 40 affinity points. So I guess I’m good here. Though if you find the Metallothane Jelly I’m still curious where it was. Only five locations left to max!
 
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I can't be the only one who thought that combat was a slog because of how much health enemies have, right? It just gets boring when you have to spend at least 5 minutes grinding down every unique or boss enemy. Luckily I was overleveled for most of the game, or it would have been even worse. Xenoblade 1 had perfect combat length, I don't understand why 2 and 3 had to make it so much longer.

Almost everything else about 3 is so well made, it's such a shame that one thing basically ruined my experience.
 
Multiverse said:
Xenoblade 3 is
Anti-war
Anti-capitalist
Pro-community
Pro-open borders
Anti-government
Anti-aurhoritarianism
Anti-eugenics
All the characters are multifaceted with growth and character arcs. Even the npcs have arcs and contribute to the theme of the story. Any other Nintendo IPs with this level of writing?
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Topics you target ≠ quality of writing?

In fact, the more complex the topics you want to tackle are, the more evident it is if your writing is not on the level required to do it. Which is the problem with Xenoblade... that looks from the beggining that it wants to try and say something meaningful about these topics to finish its speech on the power of friendship.
 
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Multiverse said:
People‘s tolerance towards them and perception of what’s “good” or ”bad” depends on their exposure to said cultures. The problem is absolutely cultural. And the problem isn’t Xenoblade writing. The writing is no different from the barrage of anime shows airing on crunchyroll. That‘s their intent and that’s what they are going for. Not Helmet not Shakespeare but anime. Do you like anime?
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Well, here's the thing.
I don't know anime. That's why I used "anime" in quotation marks in my first post and emphasised that I don't know what it means, really.
So this is a difficult conversation to have.
My experience of anime is, like, Akira, Ghost in the Shell, and Studio Ghibli movies.
In the story of these games, I see a clear attempt at making something like Akira - grand, sprawling, science-fiction of immense ambition, featuring youths whose bonds end up tying into the very nature and end/beginning of the universe itself.
In the presentation of these games, it is nothing like Akira.

Whereas, for example, The Wind Waker, Breath of the Wild, Majora's Mask, Link's Awakening, all have strong Ghibli vibes in not just the narratives but in the way those narratives are presented and even the way the games look. I think it's crazy to accuse the series of being "west pandering" with how deeply entwined its iconography is with Japanese history, or how obviously its lore and depiction of nature is influenced by Shintoism, or any number of other things. Skyward Sword has an entire dungeon based on The Spider's Thread for example. Zelda is quintessentially Japanese, but it it's aimed at being accessible to all ages and genders.

The point I want to get at - but can't, because I lack the knowledge of the specific anime you refer to - is that there is no monolith of expression in "anime" or "Japanese" media. But there is certainly a niche within it that probably does tie Xenoblade together with whatever that anime it is that you're talking about. And they're all aimed very specifically at a set audience, to the often-deliberate exclusion of others. The niche isn't cultural in an ethnic sense. I don't think they're made entirely, 100% with a domestic audience in mind. But they ARE made entirely, 100%, with an audience of teenagers in mind.

So you can tell me,
"Anime games or Jrpg tend to come a with certain style of writing or humor that might not translate well in the west. It’s part of the package."

And my response is always going to be, why?
Who decided that,

"Well, if you implement turn-based combat, ATB, or some derivation thereof in your game, your game must be aimed exclusively to teenage boys and pander to them and also condescend to them"?

I don't see how one follows the other.
 
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DunningSmith said:
There is something incredibly funny about someone criticizing the game's philosophy as "very simplistic", but at the same time misinterpreting the games theme/message as "war bad". Specially when the game is not even remotely subtile with its lesson.
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I've not actually said it was the only theme, have I? Or do you want me to nitpick every monologue from the game?

The game features way more, but the frist dozen or so hours are wasted on presenting a very simple philosophy while not going all the way with it.
The whole shebang about aging and life, for example, is presented much better, and the City is definitely a culmination of it, which results in the best scene of the entire game. However I'd argue that it doesn't do much with it either, ultimately saying Lots of Words for something fairly simple. I don't see why this game should have as much content as, say, Disco Elysium, when half of it is spent on pointless dialogue that feels ripped out of any shonen.

The War Bad example is particularly egregious because that's the main thrust of the story and the game is willing to sacrifice gameplay decisions for it, yet it doesn't stick the landing. It has no teeth to show the actual horrors and half the characters you encounter are ready to become Traitors To The Country the moment you talk to them for 3 minutes. It's very Bioshock Infinite in its presentation where it wants to say big things, but can't because that would require to craft a much, much darker story.
 
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linkwashere said:
Topics you target ≠ quality of writing?

In fact, the more complex the topics you want to tackle are, the more evident it is if your writing is not on the level required to do it. Which is the problem with Xenoblade... that looks from the beggining that it wants to try and say something meaningful about these topics to finish its speech on the power of friendship.
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Well, it’s not a problem with the Xenoblade 3 because of the topics and character arcs have been explored to death at every angle. That’s why people are praising it. Are you even playing the game to even dare to say this lol?

The heroes and colonies all have different view points to what they are fighting for, about the war, about their lives. They showed A LOT in this game.
Even one of the consuls in a certain chapter shed more light to the system and it‘s a cool revelation tucked in a hero quest. The city. The city. Just talk to any NPCs. The cast, N, M, Z, and Shania all represent the themes and are explored in different ways. Life, Death, Rebirth (The Beginning). Shania is a FANTASTIC character. N wants immortality, M is content with Life, Shania wants to redo it.

I don’t want to spoil. This game is DEEP. The writing is ABSOLUTELY to the level. And the praise is deserved. This is easily the most thematically rich Xenoblade game.

This was exactly my point. In how anime writing have a pre conceived notion. I don’t know how you came to a conclusion that the game isn’t tackling its topics? Like what?
 
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Ghibli is more or less the Disney equivalent of japan. It‘s more universal than most Japanese media but things still need to be altered. Ghibli films were heavily localized and dialogues were changed by Disney.

Akira and GTS were flops outside of japan when they came out. Did you watch those dub or sub? Maybe try dub. The dialogue and writing is no different from Xenoblade lol.

And if you can’t see the west medieval inspiration in Zelda then I don’t know what to tell you. Link is literally Perter Pan. The game itself took after western games at the time. And the name Zelda is after Zelda Fitzgerald. We can also talk about Mario. Loads of Nintendo IPs are west pandering to success.

I rest my case.
 
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