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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

I think it was confirmed it isn't UE4. I found that it really ruined the experience for me. I didn't dislike the Link's Awakening art the way others did, but I would have rather had camera scrolling than the frame stutters.
Thanks. Sounds like it would annoy me too much. I've never played the original and it looks really fun but I may aswell wait for a potential patch or it to just run better on Switch 2 at this point if we're going to have Switch 2 in our hands by late 2024.
 
Ah Yoshi that's it! Thanks. Yeah I also remember Link's Awakening being talked about as using UE4. Did they ever patch LA to fix it's framerate spikes every time the camera changes? and if not can anyone speak to how much it ruins the experience do you just get used to it over time? Thanks.

I guess it all comes down to is it faster and cheaper for Nintendo to use UE5 versus their internal engines. Epic are making it harder and harder for companies to justify using their own custom engines as visuals scale up looking at Sony and MS using it for so many of their own first party games.
No I don't think it ever got patched, also iirc part of the issue was the game using double buffering vsync instead of triple buffering meaning any slight dip would result in a signicant frame drop (while also having some areas sustaining more constant drops).

The reason for using double buffering is supposedly better response time, same reason Nintendo went for double buffering for TOTK.
 
If the solution was to recompile and store shaders on Drake, about how much space per game could that take up?
From a cursory glance at my TOTK cache with 11,158 shaders compiled, its about 410MB. but the shader cache size is very game dependent. Some games use more or less shaders.
 
Thanks. Sounds like it would annoy me too much. I've never played the original and it looks really fun but I may aswell wait for a potential patch or it to just run better on Switch 2 at this point if we're going to have Switch 2 in our hands by late 2024.
If you have a tolerance for retro games already, then the original is very fun, and I don't think the added content of the remake is really worth it. The remake made some truly excellent gameplay updates - with only two "active" item slots, the game has you in the subscreen a lot. The remake fixes this, and adds some small tweaks to the combat which make it more pleasant.

The core game is excellent, it's really pick-your-irritation.
 
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It looks almost like a step backwards in some ways
I'm sure this is a controversial opinion here, but my wants and desires for Zelda artstyle has kinda changed. Don't get me wrong, I love the way Botw looks, really good blend of cell shading and a more grounded style. But I feel like this style has been developing since Skyward Sword, I know SS isn't exactly the same but it is pretty similar. Anyway, I think that because by the time the next game comes out, it will have probably been upwards of 15 years of Zelda going for this similar style, I just want them to try something different. I like the novelty of Zelda games' art changing, it just keeps things exciting. I won't lie, with Tears of the Kingdom I was becoming tired of the style because it's been in my head space literally since 2015 or whenever they revealed Zelda Wii U, and I was especially tired of the world by the end (though that's a different conversation).

I used to be a person that was staunchly against the idea of the team going for more of a realistic style, but honestly, I've come around to that. I used to have the really dumb idea that "realistic style" means that there is no stylization at all. I've played games like Dark Souls, and while that's going on a 13 year old game or so, I still think its world aged really well. Just because there are a lot of dark colors and dirty textures, doesn't mean the art has no merit. The enemy designs and environmental designs are some of the best I've seen anywhere, I mean you've got a dank swamp, a lake of ash, a beautiful high class golden city, a spooky looking garden, cool castles. And to top that all off, the style really compliments the story and what's happening.

Now I'm not saying the next Zelda art style should rip off Dark Souls, but I am saying, that going for realism CAN work. Combine that with the idea that the next system should have pretty beefy hardware, and I would just love to see them try a rendition of that style again since it's been so long. I'd also like something a little different than the "ruined naturalistic ruins" type of thing, it's just been every where since Botw released.
 
I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
 
Honestly a Zelda game that mashes Majoras mask's trippy environmental designs with Twilight Princess's Artstyle on Drake would look soo good.
 
No I don't think it ever got patched, also iirc part of the issue was the game using double buffering vsync instead of triple buffering meaning any slight dip would result in a signicant frame drop (while also having some areas sustaining more constant drops).

The reason for using double buffering is supposedly better response time, same reason Nintendo went for double buffering for TOTK.
Wouldn't this just be ironed out without a Switch 2 patch because of the extra horse power on tap if Nintendo go backwards compatibility and take the Switch 1 clock limits off much like Sony did with PS4 Pro and PS5 when running native PS4 games?

I paid full price for the remake when it launched so I'd rather play that than the original. Is the original on the Switch Online+ service? If so I might at least try it !
 
I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
no. not to mention it's absurdly broad. it could mean 50 billion different things. for Pokemon, Game Freak is already hiring for UE5 experience, but we don't know what that could be. for all we know it's for their Private Division game
 
I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
you literally just said it, no it's not credible
 
Nate mentioned that BC has become an industry standard, and I believe that it should absolutely be the standard. I also agree that the Switch 2 will be fully BC.

But what are the chances Microsoft and Sony keep BC with the next-gen consoles in ~2028?

It doesn't make sense to cut people off and start over with the PS6 or next-gen Xbox. The architecture won't be changing, and we're long past seeing major graphical upgrades like we saw from PS1 --> PS2 or N64 --> Gamecube. Everything is much more iterative and gradual. It seems like a safe bet that Microsoft will allow people to play all their current Xbox games on all future Xbox consoles, much like PC.

But do we really expect Sony to do the same with the PS6?

I think before we can qualify BC as an "industry standard", we need to see what Sony does with the PS6 and what Nintendo does with whatever comes after the Switch 2. It's one thing to offer BC on the next system, but offering multi-generational BC over more than two generations? That remains to be seen.

I can play Steam games from 2010 or prior on my new PC. The next Xbox in 2028 will allow people to play all their Series X|S, Xbox One, and 360 games. But whether Sony and Nintendo continue to offer BC in the long term is a much more difficult question. The thing is, the longer they offer BC, the more difficult it becomes to cut everyone off. Does Sony force people to start their libraries over with the PS6 with people owning 13 years worth of PS4/PS5 titles? Will Nintendo cut people off with the Switch 3 in 2031 after their customers have spend 14 years building their Switch 1 and 2 gaming libraries?
 
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Nate mentioned that BC has become an industry standard, and I believe that it should absolutely be the standard. I also agree that the Switch 2 will be fully BC.

But what are the chances Microsoft and Sony keep BC with the next-gen consoles in ~2028?

It doesn't make sense to cut people off and start over with the PS6 or next-gen Xbox. The architecture won't be changing, and we're long past seeing major graphical upgrades like we saw from PS1 --> PS2 or N64 --> Gamecube. Everything is much more iterative and gradual. It seems like a safe bet that Microsoft will allow people to play all their current Xbox games on all future Xbox consoles, much like PC.

But do we really expect Sony to do the same with the PS6?

I think before we can qualify BC as an "industry standard", we need to see what Sony does with the PS6 and what Nintendo does with whatever comes after the Switch 2. It's one thing to offer BC on the next system, but offering multi-generational BC over more than two generations? That remains to be seen.

I can play Steam games from 2010 or prior on my new PC. The next Xbox in 2028 will allow people to play all their Series X|S, Xbox One, and 360 games. But whether Sony and Nintendo continue to offer BC in the long term is a much more difficult question. The thing is, the longer they offer BC, the more difficult it becomes to cut everyone off. Does Sony force people to start their libraries over with the PS6 with people owning 13 years worth of PS4/PS5 titles? Will Nintendo cut people off with the Switch 3 in 2031 after their customers have spend 14 years building their Switch 1 and 2 gaming libraries?
The only risk/concern we can have with MS/Sony moving forward is their willingness to abandon physical media -- but digital BC will be featured on their next-gen machines post Series/PS5. Of course, ditching physical media is and of itself its own talking point... when the time comes.
 
The current subpar quality of the Nintendo E-Shop would be understandable in 2000s or even early to mid 2010s. In 2023 when many indie devs rely on the e-shop as their only way to sell games on switch, the E-Shop in it's current state is unacceptable. So many basic features are missing and functional issues with the switch e-shop, online web browser e-shop, or both.


I always close any game I'm playing before using the e-shop and it still runs horrendously, plus the problem isn't just the switch e-shop, the e-shop that they run through desktop web-browsers is also run terribly. For example, the desktop nintendo e-shop does not even have an option to list games chronologically.
To follow up on this, Spawnwave posted a great video today demonstrating the issues with the e-shop. Steph Sterling also did a good video a few weeks ago that focuses specifically on the shovelware and briefly mentions the other problems that i'll also post, but I would say Spawnwave's video is much more focused on the performance/usability issues with the e-shop



 
The only risk/concern we can have with MS/Sony moving forward is their willingness to abandon physical media -- but digital BC will be featured on their next-gen machines post Series/PS5. Of course, ditching physical media is and of itself its own talking point... when the time comes.
Yeah. One day physical media will be gone. That’s still a ways away though.
 
Yeah. One day physical media will be gone. That’s still a ways away though.

They said that about CDs for years, while there has been an increase in sales for a while. Vinyl made a resurgence. Physical media is going nowhere I think.
 
I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
It's not credible because Zippo isn't credible. How plausible or implausible things are is irrelevant. Implausible things happen all the time, plausible things fail to happen. Zippo is a conman and pathological liar. A stopped clock is right twice a day - Zippo isn't even a stopped clock, he's a random one.

Could any of these studios use Unreal Engine? Maybe, Nintendo is clearly changing things up internally, but they used the same engine for Switch Sports and Tears of the Kingdom so I fail to see an untapped niche that Unreal Engine could fill, especially UE4.
 
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Yeah. One day physical media will be gone. That’s still a ways away though.

Many third-party partners want a digital-only market -- of course, their want doesn't mean the console manufacturer will follow. Sony and MS will gradually inch closer to such a reality or they'll make disc-based hardware a secondary option.

They said that about CDs for years, while there has been an increase in sales for a while. Vinyl made a resurgence. Physical media is going nowhere I think.
True, though it took years for people to realize they wanted physical ownership. Gaming faces the problem of: select physical releases are strictly keys to a digital copy.
 
Wouldn't this just be ironed out without a Switch 2 patch because of the extra horse power on tap if Nintendo go backwards compatibility and take the Switch 1 clock limits off much like Sony did with PS4 Pro and PS5 when running native PS4 games?

I paid full price for the remake when it launched so I'd rather play that than the original. Is the original on the Switch Online+ service? If so I might at least try it !
pretty likely most games will see a boost in performance and resolution if their original versions had unstable framerate and dynamic resolution. So it should be the case for Link's Awakening.
As far as I'm aware it'd be more of a pain in the ass for Nintendo to prevent those performance improvements rather than letting games take advantage of the new hardware natively.
 
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Please do not use sexist pejoratives to summarize other's feelings and make sweeping arguments.- mariodk18, VolcanicDynamo, xghost777
PS6 and the next Xbox have little chance of still supporting physical games. SNG is likely the last console to support it. Legacy content will mostly be preserved through the subscription services. Profits are substantially better with digital and consumers are gravitating towards it because it's convenient. I can emphasize with people who love physical, but it's nearing the end and no amount of bitching from a vocal minority is going to change that.

MOD EDIT: NSFW censor
 
I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
he made a woule conspiracy theory, future first party Nintendo games would use just because Pikimin 4 e Yoshi Crafted World used this engine, i higly doubt Nintendo will change it internal engine for Unreal Engine, as he claim, EPD8 could do for the next 3D Mario
 
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I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
Yoshi's Wooly World isn't on Switch.

He failed my integrity test, so the whole article is bupkis in my book.
 
It doesn't make sense to cut people off and start over with the PS6 or next-gen Xbox. The architecture won't be changing, and we're long past seeing major graphical upgrades like we saw from PS1 --> PS2 or N64 --> Gamecube. Everything is much more iterative and gradual. It seems like a safe bet that Microsoft will allow people to play all their current Xbox games on all future Xbox consoles, much like PC.

But do we really expect Sony to do the same with the PS6?

I think before we can qualify BC as an "industry standard", we need to see what Sony does with the PS6 and what Nintendo does with whatever comes after the Switch 2. It's one thing to offer BC on the next system, but offering multi-generational BC over more than two generations? That remains to be seen.
I think it's always going to be the generation immediately prior that's going to be the one to worry about. For the older stuff, actually doing the BC probably becomes easier thanks to just software emulation being good enough, plus fewer people caring if it is less than perfect since fewer people will be playing games that aren't recent. If Nintendo had a hardware port for it or had been using Nintendo Account 30 years ago, it'd be pretty easy for them to continue supporting NES/SNES/N64 BC indefinitely. If Steam Deck today can emulate Switch games decently, we can surely count on it not being a problem for Switch 3 even if they were to totally upend the hardware again.
 
I don't understand why some people want Nintendo to use unreal so goddamn much when they already have very solid in house engines for most of their studios.

In occasions where the game is co-developed with one or several third party studios it does make sense to use it but otherwise I don't really see what would be gained by the Mario, Zelda, Splatoon, Animal Crossing teams from doing it besides potentially making less well performing games due to more overhead with UE5. If they see a feature that they like in unreal, I think it's likely they'd come up with their own solutions that they'd add to their engines.
 
I don't understand why some people want Nintendo to use unreal so goddamn much when they already have very solid in house engines for most of their studios.

In occasions where the game is co-developed with one or several third party studios it does make sense to use it but otherwise I don't really see what would be gained by the Mario, Zelda, Splatoon, Animal Crossing teams from doing it besides potentially making less well performing games due to more overhead with UE5. If they see a feature that they like in unreal, I think it's likely they'd come up with their own solutions that they'd add to their engines.
For graphics, UE is just incredible and Pikmin 4 looks phenomenal.

If they can do everything with UE, why not?
 
Thanks for this straightforward explanation. I never fully understood shaders. Like I’d start looking them up then…

IMG-0348.jpg
The pic made me chuckle
 
I really doubt Zelda is gonna have a "realistic style" anytime soon. The last time they did it they essentially felt they were forced to after backlash. Then they combined the two styles in SS and BOTW. I think that's the direction they feel is best
 
Too close to "shit" IMO.

Yeah, yeah, Wii also had the same issue. I still don't think they should be taking risks on product names like that.
Yeah I thought about that being a problem as well, maybe it would put pressure on them to make the new system even better so people don't misuse the name lol I don't like the way Nintendo Swap sounds, so i would take my chances with SHIFT if they didn't want to use Switch 2. I really like Nintendo Nex, and Nintendo Neo
 
That Zippo article better not be the reason for the epic partnership rumor.

There are legit reasons nintendo would want to do a partnership with Epic but Zippo is such an idiot they instead talked about first party games using UE4.
 
For graphics, UE is just incredible and Pikmin 4 looks phenomenal.

If they can do everything with UE, why not?
"graphics" don't need to use a specific engine to look great, as for why not use everything with UE I already explained they're more likely to truly squeeze everything out of the hardware by using their own engines while something like Unreal will always likely have some overhead due to being multipurpose.

A recent example of a developer going from unreal to their own engine with great success was Capcom with Street Fighter where the game saw improvements in response time from SF5 to SF6 (alongside improvements in cloth physics, etc).

Also being over reliant on one other company game engine for all your first productions doesn't seem like the best move when you have perfectly capable engines.
 
I don't understand why some people want Nintendo to use unreal so goddamn much when they already have very solid in house engines for most of their studios.

In occasions where the game is co-developed with one or several third party studios it does make sense to use it but otherwise I don't really see what would be gained by the Mario, Zelda, Splatoon, Animal Crossing teams from doing it besides potentially making less well performing games due to more overhead with UE5. If they see a feature that they like in unreal, I think it's likely they'd come up with their own solutions that they'd add to their engines.
I don't care about if nintendo uses unreal for their own games but making sure that UE5 games can easily be ported to their next console after the switch is going to be important.

As game consoles have gotten more complicated, making game engines has become harder, so most devs will license existing engines. Capcom got lucky and found that their in house RE Engine works great for their games, but most developers, especially smallers ones, dont have the luxury of making an entire engine.
 
If it's not Nintendo Switch [BRAND] it's a bad name.
Honestly, I think anything other than "Switch 2" would be a bad name.

"Super Switch", "Switch Ultra", "Switch 4K", etc, all sound like variants of the current Switch and IMO don't properly convey a successor system.

After the Wii U fiasco it's critical Nintendo gets the naming right. "Switch 2" is clear, direct, and simple and would cause zero confusion. That's precisely what they need for their next system.
 
For graphics, UE is just incredible and Pikmin 4 looks phenomenal.

If they can do everything with UE, why not?
because why spend the money when they can do everything themselves. Pikmin 4 looks great, yes, but it's also not doing anything that Nintendo's own engines haven't done. and it ignores why UE4 was used in the first place

maybe Nintendo will get to a point where supporting their own set of tools isn't financially feasible, but they are far from there yet.
 
because why spend the money when they can do everything themselves. Pikmin 4 looks great, yes, but it's also not doing anything that Nintendo's own engines haven't done. and it ignores why UE4 was used in the first place

maybe Nintendo will get to a point where supporting their own set of tools isn't financially feasible, but they are far from there yet.
That does bring up an interesting question. Was Pikmin 4 an internal Nintendo test on UE4 or was it picked because the engine powering Pikmin couldn't give them the results they wanted.

Nintendo seems to continue using their own engine on their other games.
 
could the next mainline Legend of Zelda game on Switch sucessor, have a more realistic art style?


No. Never, tbqh. (I hope). Nintendo have said explicitly that it isn’t their desire to imitate the real world, and non-photorealistic art directions have become a staple of the LOZ sequel. From cel-shading to Impressionism to en plein air gouache painting blended with Studio Ghibli-esque inspiration, I suspect the next one will adopt a different style or refine these ideas to create something fresh and unique.
 
That does bring up an interesting question. Was Pikmin 4 an internal Nintendo test on UE4 or was it picked because the engine powering Pikmin couldn't give them the results they wanted.

Nintendo seems to continue using their own engine on their other games.
Eighting had a massive hand in teh game and are very proficient in UE4. with a co-production like this, it's probably best to go with UE4
 
I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
Quicky Quick :
Nintendo : Pikmin 4 is the second in house game that was made using Unreal Engine
GameFreaks : We hire people who know how to use Unreal Engine 5
Zippo : PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN NINTENDO AND EPIC GAMES FOR SWITCH 2 !!11!&11!!&!&

Meanwhile, at Epic Games :
Tim : I did it ! I deleted every original Unreal game from existence in every stores including my own ! Why ? Because it makes sense when I don’t think about it !
 
I don't care about if nintendo uses unreal for their own games but making sure that UE5 games can easily be ported to their next console after the switch is going to be important.

As game consoles have gotten more complicated, making game engines has become harder, so most devs will license existing engines. Capcom got lucky and found that their in house RE Engine works great for their games, but most developers, especially smallers ones, dont have the luxury of making an entire engine.
Unreal Engine 5 was literally one of the first things confirmed for the Switch (and its successor). If they hadn’t said it then, Nintendo and Nvidia would’ve certainly locked it in, as they had UE4 on board. It’s not worth worrying about. They’ll work with all of their partners and ensure what’s needed is there.
 
I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.
I don't want to sound rude but...

A broken clock is right twice a day. They could be right but that doesn't make them a credible source when they have been wrong numerous times.
 
Think of the bus as a highway and the bus width (number of bits) as lanes, with no exits midway. If you only increase the number of lanes in one half of the highway, you won't improve traffic that much.

On gaming PCs, graphic cards comes with their own RAM embedded. For example, a RTX 2060 has a 192-bit width and 336GB/s of bandwidth just for it. So, the RAM you plug into the motherboard is mostly only going to affect the CPU, which by itself is 64-bit.

Consoles have a unified RAM for everything, so you need a much higher bandwidth cap before you hit a cap.
OK, but that still does not answer the hypothetical. If you have such an excess of RAM that you can effectively use a giant piece of it as cache, does that not effectively (to use your analogy) remove cars from the highway altogether, by not forcing the GPU to recalculate certain repetitive tasks due to dumping them to make room in RAM for other in-bound calculations? And is that enough to make a single-channel RAM solution more effective? Because, again, the simplest way to improve traffic is taking cars off the road to begin with.

And really, when this is all true and reducing traffic by taking data off the road is impossible, then why aren’t we talking about even more multi-channel RAM being the absolute ideal configuration? The Orin chips that T239 is based on support up to a 256-bit bus width, so just use 3-4 RAM chips at lower GBs and make the thing scream with speed. The answer seems likely to me that the performance isn’t quite as simple as it being multiplied by the number of channels, which is why we’re only talking about dual-channel configurations like 2x 8GB to improve performance over the baseline expectation of 2x 6GB and not 3x 6GB which, by this logic, should be an undeniably better solution to both by every possible measure.
 
could the next mainline Legend of Zelda game on Switch sucessor, have a more realistic art style?



Realistic no. Different stylizations yes. Not like the wiiu tech demo is very realistic anyway. Hair don't look like that.

I know Zippo is Zippo and pretty unreliable...But do you think this is credible? Would have pretty big implications for future Nintendo titles if true. Especially for Pokemon.

I don’t think it will be anything different from Switch. Nintendo will make sure Epic receive dev kits early to make sure UE is supported at launch. Some Nintendo group might work on it but it will mostly be the outsourced teams. I don't see Monolith Soft switching at all with how technological proficient they are.

For graphics, UE is just incredible and Pikmin 4 looks phenomenal.

If they can do everything with UE, why not?
I don’t think Pikmin 4 is anything that Nintendo own engine couldn’t do. It’s just convenient since the team developing it has a lot of experience with UE. Plus you’re now relying on another party to optimize the engine to your console, which considering the state of early UE Switch games, might not be a high priority.
 
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