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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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HankyPanky said:
the technical discussion on DLSS is a bit over my head (interesting though!) but considering Nintendo potentially has their own customi version of the technology along with custom (within reason) hardware...is there any chance that upscaling on NG could be more efficient or even lower latency than what we've seen so far ie running on desktop GPUs with extra overheads.
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Potentially Nintendo will have non-DLSS upscalers that they might deploy in some situations. I also expect that there might be some small "startup" overhead that can be cleaned out of DLSS just because it's running on one dedicated platform. But I suspect that Nvidia and Nintendo would prefer to be able to push updates from the "desktop" DLSS to NVN2 as rapidly as possible, and the fewer customizations, the better.
 
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Cybergatuno said:
So there's ...
  • Gamescom - August 23-27
  • Pax West - September 1-4
  • Possible Direct before TGS
  • Tokyo Game Show - September 21-24
  • Nintendo quarter results - November
  • The Game Awards - December
Anything else relevant this year?
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Is there still the expectation of the Switch 2 prototype being brought to the closed doors event at Gamescom?
 
D36 said:
Sheesh, I knew Zippo was controversial, but not to this extent.
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Yeah that's why I tend to dish whenever he's brought up. I hate coming across like I'm dogpiling or something, but I feel like a lot of people only know about him because his "leaks" get picked up by the gaming press, and have no idea the kind of trash he's thrown around, including at us.
 
Cybergatuno said:
I believe Nvidia shared some slides about that, running DLSS in parallel, upscaling the previous frame, and comparing it to a more serial approach.
There were quite some gains in GPU utilization.
I couldn't find a source, not even sure how to search for it.

But we're effectively delaying the output by one frame, adding 16ms to input latency at 60fps and an even worse 33ms at 30fps, on top of the already existing hardware and engine latency.

A quick "maximum input lag" search shows the following:

We could be blowing past our budget in one go.
This would be disastrous in online shooters but wouldn't matter much in most Nintendo games IMO.
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Not necessarily, when taking this approach I believe that the added delay would only be the DLSS time, which in the worst case would be 8ms from what @oldpuck said.
 
oldpuck said:
My original point- which might be genuinely irrelevant now - is that DLSS upscaling isn't free, and it's cost varies with output resolution. Yes, DLSS 2's upscaling time can be hid inside of CPU time.

But that would be at the cost of rendering additional features at the lower upscaled resolution. No matter where you hide DLSS's upscaling time, that will be true. If rendering time of this frame extends into the next frame's CPU work, that rendering could be anything, not just DLSS. 4K as the output target doesn't guarantee the highest quality image. Many devs will be deciding between balancing next gen visual features vs final output resolution, just like they do now. DLSS doesn't make that calculus go away, it just makes the effects significantly cheaper.

I recognize my example was beyond simplistic - but the calculus remains. There will be plenty of reasons to select a less-than-4k output
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Yeah, I agree with all that. Indeed, even if the ideal scenario was achieved and both CPU and GPU have 16.6 ms to do their work, you still need to find somewhere in the GPU's 16.6 ms to evaluate DLSS. It's just not necessarily competing with the CPU for that time, so I thought "8 ms is the whole render budget" was worthy of some more discussion -- especially since the specific 8 ms number is coming from what aims to be a T239 estimate.

It's definitely unreasonable to assume that DLSS will make 4K 60 fps the standard, since DLSS to 4K will be more expensive. But it will happen in some cases.
 
Cybergatuno said:
So there's ...
  • Gamescom - August 23-27
  • Pax West - September 1-4
  • Possible Direct before TGS
  • Tokyo Game Show - September 21-24
  • Nintendo quarter results - November
  • The Game Awards - December
Anything else relevant this year?
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Thanks for this you are amazing
 
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GigaUltraMoon said:
Is there still the expectation of the Switch 2 prototype being brought to the closed doors event at Gamescom?
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I have no idea.

But as Nate and others said, there will be backstage talks.
Devkits being in the wild, it's not farfetched to think they would show demos on one of those.

But I don't think they would reveal anything that isn't already known by partners.
BC, final appearance, controllers, new gimmicks, naming, etc will stay secret until announcement.
 
Cybergatuno said:
So there's ...
  • Gamescom - August 23-27
  • Pax West - September 1-4
  • Possible Direct before TGS
  • Tokyo Game Show - September 21-24
  • Nintendo quarter results - November
  • The Game Awards - December
Anything else relevant this year?
Click to expand...
In terms of potential for new hardware no, but from 2017 through 2021 there was always an Indie World in August, so there's that.
 
Guaraná said:
hey nate, today is my mom's dog birthday. Do you have a scoop to give me please? THANKS!
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heres one
Pet-Pooper-Scooper-Dogs-Shit-Clip-Long-Handle-Jaw-Poop-Scoop-Outdoor-Animal-Feces-Cleaner-Picker.jpg


a poop scoop
 
casualreader said:
How nuts would it be if he gave you one.
Like in the late 90s when in France we started having TV shows where people could talk live to the presenter. The first person who asked for a car got one, just because they were the first to ask.
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ok, nate, forget about switch 2 news.

i want a car.
 
eye0h said:


No source but if this gets verified by mods it could be interesting. Switch 2 Launch title perhaps? Something about it screams fake to me though
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Was it just greenlit?
If it's a AA game, we'll see it in 3 years.
If it's a AAA+, it's anyone's guess.

TomNookYankees said:
In terms of potential for new hardware no, but from 2017 through 2021 there was always an Indie World in August, so there's that.
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By "new hardware", you mean announcement?
There will be an announcement at any time between now and July 2024. I'm not really expecting anything this year.

I was just listing the events that may bring new info to this thread.
A Direct or the end of quarter will bring new info to speculate on.
There will be info shared at the other events, some of which may take weeks to come out.
An Indie Direct is a little irrelevant.
 
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I'm not experienced with historic pre-launch console rumours and leaks. Is it ordinary for 3rd party games to be concretely rumoured in advance of announcement, similar to how console specs and features almost always are? Or does that not really happen because it makes it too easy to know the sources of the leaks?

In other words, going off history, should we expect to hear about credibly sourced 3rd party Switch 2 game rumours in the coming weeks and months or is it just hardware specs and features that we should expect to hear about?
 
The Competition said:
I'm not experienced with historic pre-launch console rumours and leaks. Is it ordinary for 3rd party games to be concretely rumoured in advance of announcement, similar to how console specs and features almost always are? Or does that not really happen because it makes it too easy to know the sources of the leaks?

In other words, going off history, should we expect to hear about credibly sourced 3rd party Switch 2 game rumours in the coming weeks and months or is it just hardware specs and features that we should expect to hear about?
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partly yes, because when Dragon Quest 11 was anounced, Square Enix kinda slipped the game was coming to Switch
 
The Competition said:
I'm not experienced with historic pre-launch console rumours and leaks. Is it ordinary for 3rd party games to be concretely rumoured in advance of announcement
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I was only tangentially following the NX rumor mill, but I don’t remember any really concrete third party rumors.
 
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Since I'm here, and it was a point that came up in discussion, I wouldn't agree that DLSS to 1440p is better from an image quality perspective than DLSS to 4K. It's much cheaper, for sure, so there's good reason to make the tradeoff in some situations. But if you have the chance to reconstruct higher frequency spatial information, you should take it.

Cybergatuno said:
I believe Nvidia shared some slides about that, running DLSS in parallel, upscaling the previous frame, and comparing it to a more serial approach.
There were quite some gains in GPU utilization.
I couldn't find a source, not even sure how to search for it.

But we're effectively delaying the output by one frame, adding 16ms to input latency at 60fps and an even worse 33ms at 30fps, on top of the already existing hardware and engine latency.

A quick "maximum input lag" search shows the following:

We could be blowing past our budget in one go.
This would be disastrous in online shooters but wouldn't matter much in most Nintendo games IMO.
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Maybe this, from the Ampere white paper? It used to be discussed fairly often in the thread, but I haven't seen it cited in the current discussion yet. Oldpuck's point is still essentially true though, that concurrency sometimes is not possible and that it would introduce a frame or two of display lag.

image.png

image.png
 
Anatole said:
Since I'm here, and it was a point that came up in discussion, I wouldn't agree that DLSS to 1440p is better from an image quality perspective than DLSS to 4K. It's much cheaper, for sure, so there's good reason to make the tradeoff in some situations. But if you have the chance to reconstruct higher frequency spatial information, you should take it.


Maybe this, from the Ampere white paper? It used to be discussed fairly often in the thread, but I haven't seen it cited in the current discussion yet. Oldpuck's point is still essentially true though, that concurrency sometimes is not possible and that it would introduce a frame or two of display lag.

image.png

image.png
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Those are the exact graphs I saw.
Thank you!

It doesn't mention frames being delayed to better parallelize tasks.
Maybe I just assumed it.
 
Anatole said:
Since I'm here, and it was a point that came up in discussion, I wouldn't agree that DLSS to 1440p is better from an image quality perspective than DLSS to 4K. It's much cheaper, for sure, so there's good reason to make the tradeoff in some situations. But if you have the chance to reconstruct higher frequency spatial information, you should take it.
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if they have the spar render time, then they will. I don't think it will happen all that often. for third party games, I think 1080p or 1440p will be the best they can get out of it. if the Series S can't manage higher than 1080p all that often, I don't see Drake doing the same
 
Cybergatuno said:
It doesn't mention frames being delayed to better parallelize tasks.
Maybe I just assumed it.
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I think it is true though, because the frame does have to be completely rendered to be used as the input for a neural network. I believe the concurrency shown is DLSS upscaling a previously rendered and buffered frame while the shaders render a new frame. The framerate and frametime would still be steady; it’s just that each frame in the buffer would essentially be pushed back by one.
 
Dakhil said:
news.skhynix.com

LPDDR5T's Operating Speed Verified By MediaTek's Mobile APs

SK hynix’s LPDDR5T has completed performance verification for application with MediaTek’s next-generation mobile APs.
news.skhynix.com news.skhynix.com
news.skhynix.com

SK hynix Starts Mass Production of 24GB LPDDR5X DRAM

SK hynix Inc. announced today that it has begun supplying the industry’s first 24-gigabyte (GB) Low Power Double Data Rate 5X (LPDDR5X1) mobile DRAM package.
news.skhynix.com news.skhynix.com
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damn, drake ain't even out yet and now we thirsting for Drake Pro
 
Cybergatuno said:
So there's ...
  • Gamescom - August 23-27
  • Pax West - September 1-4
  • Possible Direct before TGS
  • Tokyo Game Show - September 21-24
  • Nintendo quarter results - November
  • The Game Awards - December
Anything else relevant this year?
Click to expand...
Brazil Game Show 2023 - October 11-15

Nintendo announced their presence, will be one of the event major sponsors and the organization announced that will be the biggest stand ever for BGS
Brazilian devs can also make meetings and business talks regarding development for their platforms there

EDIT for reference: Last year Nintendo stand was 1,000m²
 
I’m looking at NVidia silicon, and why are their substrates so large

I wonder if Drake will have a smaller/tighter substrate, save some space.

Since even if the chip is a nice size, will the substrate be?
 
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TheSentry said:
Plus they now have a billion dollar movie franchise, with probably more on the way.

Nintendo replaced its second pillar (dedicated handheld devices GB/DS) with movie/tv entertainment business.

They added Illumination’s CEO to their board, they bought that little film studio DynamoPictures, and they started a branch of their business to focus on films/tv.

Additionally, Nintendo is extremely shrewd with their finances and money. They investing wisely in more real estate and buildings for studios, they save a lot of cash and don’t over extend themselves, Switch will continue to bring in money through game sales for a couple of years, they are using their IPs a lot more now for merchandise…

Nintendo has so many revenue streams and are very diversified that they don’t really need two video game platforms anymore. They aren’t really that risk adverse when you take into account all their business endeavors. They can weather a storm if a piece of hardware doesn’t take off.

Also the NG Switch will have Pokémon, the largest IP in the world. It’ll sell.
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Nintendo's gaming business makes up so much of its revenue that it's practically all of it, and movie and TV entertainment doesn't help much when the gaming business is struggling.
Japanese TV anime essentially doesn't make money on its own, which is why most Japanese TV anime production companies operate on a very tight budget. Newly hired animators are paid horrendously low wages, often less than $10,000 a year, and the only reason anime is still being made is to promote the original work, to drive sales. If Nintendo makes a TV anime, it's to boost game sales, and even if it makes money, it's in the tens of millions of dollars, not billions like Nintendo's game business.
The same goes for the movie business, which produces far fewer units than Nintendo's games, and has to share profits with Universal, which has to share profits with theaters. In fact, the success of the Mario movie was reflected in Nintendo's Q1 results, but it didn't have much of an impact. In Nintendo's financials, IP and mobile revenue, which includes sales from the Mario movie, only increased by ¥20 billion (about $140 million) year-over-year.
These facts suggest that Nintendo's movie/TV entertainment plays the same role as mobile games for Nintendo: it makes money from it, but not a lot of money, and its main purpose is to promote Nintendo IP.
Therefore, if Nintendo's next-generation game console falters, the entire company could be at risk.
Of course, Nintendo knows this, which is why they have so much cash on hand.
 
Goodtwin said:
Considering Switch already runs Mario Kart 8 at 1080p and Splatoon is 900p, I think its very probable that these types of games will be able to render at 1440p before applying DLSS. So the frame time for DLSS to go from 1440p to 4K wouldn't be that terribly long. Like @oldpuck has pointed out, DLSS is not going to be a silver bullet that allows SNG to render games at 720p and then use DLSS to go all the way to 4K, there just isnt enough frame time budget for DLSS to get that done in time. The DLSS implementation on SNG may only be good for taking the output resolution up one level. For example, if the game renders natively at 1080p, DLSS will have enough time to take it to 1440p, but its probably best to assume that a 4K output will require a 1440p rendering resolution, maybe 1080p for 30fps games where the frame time is longer.
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Not sure if that's still the case in current DLSS2 versions but i recall from a DigitalFoundry video covering the possibility of DLSS on the next gen Switch it was mentioned that the frametime cost of DLSS scales with output resolution, not the input resolution. So upscaling from 1080p to 4K will have the exact same DLSS frametime cost as 1440p to 4K would have.

The main difference between the presets is that the higher quality ones have more information to work with thanks to the higher input resolution, so the image quality improves, but i genuinely can't tell a difference between the presets on my 1440p monitor.

The only reason you gain more fps in DLSS performance mode is because you are initially rendering only 0.5x of your output resolution rather than 0.67x in the quality mode, netting you a boost over quality mode. If your output resolution is set to 1440p instead of 4K, only then the DLSS costs will go down.

Let's say your game takes 20ms to render one 1080p frame and 25ms to render one 1440p frame in non-busy scenes, DLSS takes 8ms to upscale to 4K no matter what. Settling on DLSS quality mode in this case will make your frametime jump up to 33ms so you're already hitting the 30fps frametime ceiling here, but if you go for DLSS performance mode you'll be only at 28ms and have ~5ms remaining for the worst case scenarios, something that Nintendo always accounts for in their 1st party games, all while still retaining very similar image quality, atleast to my eyes.
 
Question about something I've been thinking of the last few days.

Around April-June 2021 the official Animal Crossing twitter page posted a screenshot of ACNH in 4k, people did find out about that, and after that the following pictures went back to 1080. Because of that 4k screenshot, we can assume they probably worked on Switch Pro, but cancelled and developed plans for Switch 2. Can we also assume that Switch 2 has 4k resolution aswell?
 
Apenknul said:
Question about something I've been thinking of the last few days.

Around April-June 2021 the official Animal Crossing twitter page posted a screenshot of ACNH in 4k, people did find out about that, and after that the following pictures went back to 1080. Because of that 4k screenshot, we can assume they probably worked on Switch Pro, but cancelled and developed plans for Switch 2. Can we also assume that Switch 2 has 4k resolution aswell?
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That screenshot was most likely just captured on a development workstation. It is not uncommon for bullshots like that to slip out from time to time, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Switch 2 should support 4k output, but some random 4k marketing screenshots have nothing to do with that.
 
eye0h said:


No source but if this gets verified by mods it could be interesting. Switch 2 Launch title claims. Something about it screams fake to me though
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Fox is the American TV network, they own nothing. All their assets belong to Disney. They don't "greenlight" anything. Simpsons, Family Guy and King of the Hill they all are Disney property.

And we can't get a Simpsons game, EA holds the exclusive rights. Could be Futurama video game and again, Disney decides what happens to it.
 
9-Volt said:
Fox is the American TV network, they own nothing. All their assets belong to Disney. They don't "greenlight" anything. Simpsons, Family Guy and King of the Hill they all are Disney property.

And we can't get a Simpsons game, EA holds the exclusive rights. Could be Futurama video game and again, Disney decides what happens to it.
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I wonder what happened to Fox Interactive properties...properties like No One Lives Forever...
 
SiG said:
I wonder what happened to Fox Interactive properties...properties like No One Lives Forever...
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According to Nightdive, WB owns NOLF IP.

They found out that WB owns it but when asked they pretended to not know and rejected their request of license.
 
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