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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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lattjeful said:
Does the Switch allow web view for that stuff, or even period? I thought that the whole reason the eShop is so sluggish is because there's not really much of anything in the way of a web browser to handle the brunt of the work.
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As others have pointed out, the eshop is running in a web browser, but it's running javascript through an interpreter rather than allowing for just in time (JIT) compilation. This eliminates JIT as a vector for security bugs (and its a huge vector for bugs), which is good for Nintendo, but javascript through an interpreter is much slower.

Further, the eshop web app runs out of its allocated memory quickly, which is why things always seem to reload, because they are.
 
ertaboy356b said:
If all goes well, Nintendo would have to announce console before gamefreak can announce the enhancement pack.
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There should be a dozen announced next-gen games with proper trailers and gameplay before Game Freak shows anything.

Imagine a Game Freak game being our first look at a Switch 2. Recipe for disaster.
 
Foltzie said:
As others have pointed out, the eshop is running in a web browser, but it's running javascript through an interpreter rather than allowing for just in time (JIT) compilation. This eliminates JIT as a vector for security bugs (and its a huge vector for bugs), which is good for Nintendo, but javascript through an interpreter is much slower.

Further, the eshop web app runs out of its allocated memory quickly, which is why things always seem to reload, because they are.
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Ah gotcha. Thanks for the clarification!

Even if they keep things as is for next-gen (running JS through an interpreter), would more and faster memory alleviate some of the issues, or will it be just as slow, minus not having to reload as often due to more memory?
 
Regarding the Switch Red Dead port ...

Xbox having great backwards compatibility, Switch and PS4 were the only console platforms missing that title.

Isn't that evidence that NX2 will be backwards compatible?

Maybe they're releasing Red Dead 2 as a NX2 launch title.
Then people would ask "Hey what about the first game?" - It's already available and on sale right now! Get it!
 
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Giancarlo said:
big oof for everyone, if Nintendo/Pokemon Company is stupid enough to do this
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Definitely.

Although imagine, and that's a bif IF, if Game Freak magically got their shit together and has been working with another studio to make an absolutely stunning graphics overhaul?
Something that no one could see coming and that would look so good that it'd just have to be next gen exclusive?
The gap with how Gen 9 currently looks would be so insanely huge that it would actually make sense to showcase it when revealing Switch 2.

But that's for another timeline.
Now that I'm back to reality, let's hope some DLC 2 date leak or anything adds credibility to the whole 4chan leak so it would (almost?) confirm Swtich NG for early 2024.
 
Goodtwin said:
PS4 will probably get some additional improvements that the Switch build doesn't. Things like texture quality, texture filtering and shadow resolution could very well be much higher quality than Switch. Perhaps even LOD and draw distance differences.
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Some of those would be easy enough, but for what this project seems to be I doubt anybody is getting higher texture quality than PS3/X360 version.
 
Concernt said:
So,
2D Mario, an SNES game, a 3DS game, a Mario Spin-off.

Versus the first home console, mainline Pokémon game and SMASH BROS.?

That's a terribly unfair comparison for 2023, not for 2018. 2023 is closer to Wii U's first year in quality. Which is fine, for a final year!
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Not trying to deepen an argument here, but 2023's first party lineup is genuinely much stronger for me than 2018's. Aside from Torna, 2018 was pretty much just indies for me. 😅
 
chocolate_supra said:
Not trying to deepen an argument here, but 2023's first party lineup is genuinely much stronger for me than 2018's. Aside from Torna, 2018 was pretty much just indies for me. 😅
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Ditto. Remove Zelda from the 2023 equation, and I think 2023's lineup is still stronger than 2018's. I bought Smash for the sake of having it as a fun party game, but I'm not nearly as fond of the series as a lot of Nintendo fans are. Maybe that's why I don't hold 2018 in high regard.
 
Concernt said:
That all sounds rather unlikely given what we've seen.
Click to expand...

What have we seen?

I think you’ve said similar about every Switch Pro/2 release date comment, including dismissing anyone, including myself, who dared say after 2022 or 2023.

Is the new take it will definitely be early 2024?
 
Foltzie said:
I'm assuming the news applet has a set memory footprint, which allows for its content to always be prepared to fit inside its app and background updates can occur whenever. The eshop content doesn't have that predictability.

Still, I would think that making an app with all of the text of the eshop should be fairly lightweight and could be saved on the device side.

Thick client, thin client/web app. The eternal struggle.
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At the very least why don’t they cache the thumbnails on eshop
Surely that would help? Unless it already is and it just sucks at it …
 
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I know I had that post a few hours ago where I went "Game Freak wouldn't sit on games", but a performance patch isn't a game. It's a patch. For performance. I see no reason why the DLC crew can't just work on a next-gen performance patch now if they plan on doing one, while they're already in the midst of continued work on SV anyway, so it's ready to go whenever the Switch 2 launches. It feels like the type of thing that Game Freak would want to get out of the way early, just so that they won't have to devote significant resources to SV for longer than they have to. Hell, I'd imagine a number of Nintendo games are already sitting on next-gen patches ahead of launch.
 
chocolate_supra said:
Not trying to deepen an argument here, but 2023's first party lineup is genuinely much stronger for me than 2018's. Aside from Torna, 2018 was pretty much just indies for me. 😅
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We all have our own viewpoints. For me, the first year of Wii U (which includes much of 2013) was definitely stronger than 2023.
 
Foltzie said:
A good point, heck pre-loading all of the eshop text (with formatting) should measure in say a few hundred MB at most.

Shoot format it something like markdown and kick into the web view for purchases. You would only need to load images dynamically.

It certainly seems like a solvable problem.

Like others, I find the eshop "fine", it's just weird that it could be better.
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I don't think actually loading the data takes all that long, it's likely only a megabyte or so per product page. The news applet only pre-loads content so that it can absolutely minimise friction on the front page, but even on non pre-loaded pages it's very quick to load.

I'm also fine with the eShop personally, but if I were working for Nintendo it would be another matter. Slow ecommerce platforms lose sales, and the eShop isn't immune from that

Pokemaniac said:
The difference between the two is that the news app is mostly content updates, with the client updating on the same schedule as the rest of the firmware, while the eShop gets code updates fairly frequently. It's hard to tell exactly how often it happens without paying much closer attention to it than I do, but potentially any eShop maintenance is them rolling out new code for the eShop UI. A native eShop app would have to be able to update itself like a game to be feasible, which is definitely something Nintendo could do, but probably won't to keep it fairly platform agnostic and low friction to update.
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I appreciate there are good reasons for going with a web app approach, including increased flexibility on updates, I just think it's interesting that Nintendo have also provided an example of exactly how much is being sacrificed for that flexibility.

I also wouldn't necessarily say that eShop maintenance is tied to client-side updates, they could be mostly infrastructure updates. Given that it's a web app, Nintendo could conceivably push out updates with zero downtime. I'm curious if anyone has been tracking eShop client updates.

lattjeful said:
Ah gotcha. Thanks for the clarification!

Even if they keep things as is for next-gen (running JS through an interpreter), would more and faster memory alleviate some of the issues, or will it be just as slow, minus not having to reload as often due to more memory?
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A faster CPU would be the biggest difference. Comparing a Shield TV to an A78-based phone in Geekbench, you're looking at about 2.2x the performance per clock on the browser sub-task just from the architectural improvement. With a modest clock increase we could get around a 3x speedup from the Switch NG's CPU vs the Switch. Of course the Geekbench browser sub-task may not align exactly to what the eShop's doing, but it's probably roughly in the same ballpark.
 
YolkFolk said:
What have we seen?

I think you’ve said similar about every Switch Pro/2 release date comment, including dismissing anyone, including myself, who dared say after 2022 or 2023.

Is the new take it will definitely be early 2024?
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they have and it's getting annoying.
 
Thraktor said:
I don't think actually loading the data takes all that long, it's likely only a megabyte or so per product page. The news applet only pre-loads content so that it can absolutely minimise friction on the front page, but even on non pre-loaded pages it's very quick to load.

I'm also fine with the eShop personally, but if I were working for Nintendo it would be another matter. Slow ecommerce platforms lose sales, and the eShop isn't immune from that



I appreciate there are good reasons for going with a web app approach, including increased flexibility on updates, I just think it's interesting that Nintendo have also provided an example of exactly how much is being sacrificed for that flexibility.

I also wouldn't necessarily say that eShop maintenance is tied to client-side updates, they could be mostly infrastructure updates. Given that it's a web app, Nintendo could conceivably push out updates with zero downtime. I'm curious if anyone has been tracking eShop client updates.



A faster CPU would be the biggest difference. Comparing a Shield TV to an A78-based phone in Geekbench, you're looking at about 2.2x the performance per clock on the browser sub-task just from the architectural improvement. With a modest clock increase we could get around a 3x speedup from the Switch NG's CPU vs the Switch. Of course the Geekbench browser sub-task may not align exactly to what the eShop's doing, but it's probably roughly in the same ballpark.
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Bit of a dumb question to piggyback off of this. I understand that 1. My knowledge is limited, and 2. This could potentially open an entire can of worms: If Nintendo wanted to speed things up, while still not doing JIT compilation in the name of security, would they be able to use the HDE in tandem with a lower clock CPU and get the same result as a clock increase when running applets like the eShop, while also not using as much power? Or would powering the HDE be a bit of a waste - or even not have any use at all - due to the eShop being small and so heavily online driven?

I know that it's typically not common practice to use decompression on front end stuff like websites, but I figured I'd pick your brain a bit and try to learn in the process.
 
Tbf, there isn't really anything concrete that suggests Late 2024 as much as Early or Mid 2024. The stuff we've heard from last week's reports were from two developers who were afawk, speculating.
 
Thraktor said:
I appreciate there are good reasons for going with a web app approach, including increased flexibility on updates, I just think it's interesting that Nintendo have also provided an example of exactly how much is being sacrificed for that flexibility.

I also wouldn't necessarily say that eShop maintenance is tied to client-side updates, they could be mostly infrastructure updates. Given that it's a web app, Nintendo could conceivably push out updates with zero downtime. I'm curious if anyone has been tracking eShop client updates.
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I haven't been tracking it closely, but visible changes to the eShop UI that I have noticed have been generally packaged with eShop maintenance. It's clearly for both infrastructure and the UI.

If I had to guess, it's probably intentional that the eShop is fully decoupled from the firmware. It's probably that way both to serve the short term interests of the eShop team, who generally have to answer to a different set of parties than the firmware team (publishers, payment processors, and legal compliance entities, vs mainly developers) and the long term interest of letting them continue to work on it after the platform enters EoL without having to spin-up much, if any platform specific tooling.
 
lattjeful said:
Bit of a dumb question to piggyback off of this. I understand that 1. My knowledge is limited, and 2. This could potentially open an entire can of worms: If Nintendo wanted to speed things up, while still not doing JIT compilation in the name of security, would they be able to use the HDE in tandem with a lower clock CPU and get the same result as a clock increase when running applets like the eShop, while also not using as much power? Or would powering the HDE be a bit of a waste - or even not have any use at all - due to the eShop being small and so heavily online driven?

I know that it's typically not common practice to use decompression on front end stuff like websites, but I figured I'd pick your brain a bit and try to learn in the process.
Click to expand...
If you're referring to the decompression hardware, there probably isn't enough for that to do to make a meaningful difference.
 
Sensing some Mario Wonder disrespect brewing to justify an early 2024, when that game breaks records and help move a lot of hardware/software I hope you will regret your words and deeds.
 
doesn't dev kits getting out there in a more significant capacity more suggestive of late 2024 than earlier. after all it normally takes longer than 6 months to develop a game.

not saying it won't be early 2024 as plenty of trusted partners probably had them already and it all hinges on first party content, but I wouldn't take it as encouraging for the earlier release.

and oh yeah as someone brought it up again - Ridge Racer 8!! this would be so amazing for launch, the glorious return of a franchise MIA on consoles since PS3 (no the other games don't count). it was 100% in development for the OG Switch so it makes sense it was moved to next-gen instead of scrapped. i'm really excited for this one.
 
L_esson said:
Definitely.

Although imagine, and that's a bif IF, if Game Freak magically got their shit together and has been working with another studio to make an absolutely stunning graphics overhaul?
Something that no one could see coming and that would look so good that it'd just have to be next gen exclusive?
The gap with how Gen 9 currently looks would be so insanely huge that it would actually make sense to showcase it when revealing Switch 2.

But that's for another timeline.
Now that I'm back to reality, let's hope some DLC 2 date leak or anything adds credibility to the whole 4chan leak so it would (almost?) confirm Swtich NG for early 2024.
Click to expand...
I wonder what happened to game freak, sun and moon on the 3DS looked amazing and played amazing. Most of the 3DS Pokemon games did look and run great for the most part. Then the switch comes and it looks like they just ported a 3DS game that looks like it has been touched up to work on modern consoles. It was disappointing to me
 
mariodk18 said:
What would be better (as a hypothetical)?

12 GB of LPDDR 5X

or

16 GB of LPDDR5
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16GB of LPDDR5, but that is a slightly nuanced answer.

The thing is that 5X is, essentially, a "sanctioned" overclock of 5. So while it offers a higher bandwidth cap, it doesn't offer any power draw advantages. If you keep it the same speed as 5, it draws the same power as 5. Your run it at 5X speeds, you pay a proportionately higher battery life cost.

Side note: You'll see power efficiency wins claimed for 5X all the time. They're not for 5X protocol but updates to the manufacturing process for the memory controller and the RAM itself. In practice, in our case, all those efficiency wins apply to LPDDR5 as well.

If we got 5X, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo does it purely because it can source 5X more cheaply long term, and it still clocks it at base 5 speeds for battery purposes. In which case, no advantage for 5X.

If what we're really is asking is "12GB at 5X top speed or 16GB at 5's top speed, ignore the battery life problems" then my answer is becomes contingent on the rest of the design of the system - storage access speed, and GPU clocks - but that I would tend to come down on the side of "more RAM"
 
Adulfzen said:
Sensing some Mario Wonder disrespect brewing to justify an early 2024, when that game breaks records and help move a lot of hardware/software I hope you will regret your words and deeds.
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It's not like a major game like say, Last of Us Part 2, has ever stopped a console releasing anyway.

I never said it would sell badly. But deserving of respect? I'm not a shareholder. To me it's just another 2D Mario game. As deserving of respect as the morning's loaf of bread. It'll always be there, it's always appreciated, but it's never going to make or break my morning routine.
 
oldpuck said:
16GB of LPDDR5, but that is a slightly nuanced answer.

The thing is that 5X is, essentially, a "sanctioned" overclock of 5. So while it offers a higher bandwidth cap, it doesn't offer any power draw advantages. If you keep it the same speed as 5, it draws the same power as 5. Your run it at 5X speeds, you pay a proportionately higher battery life cost.

Side note: You'll see power efficiency wins claimed for 5X all the time. They're not for 5X protocol but updates to the manufacturing process for the memory controller and the RAM itself. In practice, in our case, all those efficiency wins apply to LPDDR5 as well.

If we got 5X, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo does it purely because it can source 5X more cheaply long term, and it still clocks it at base 5 speeds for battery purposes. In which case, no advantage for 5X.

If what we're really is asking is "12GB at 5X top speed or 16GB at 5's top speed, ignore the battery life problems" then my answer is becomes contingent on the rest of the design of the system - storage access speed, and GPU clocks - but that I would tend to come down on the side of "more RAM"
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How does the power requirements scale with the overclocking? Is it linear or exponential? Would it be worth it to overclock 5X "just a little"?
 
HankyPanky said:
doesn't dev kits getting out there in a more significant capacity more suggestive of late 2024 than earlier. after all it normally takes longer than 6 months to develop a game.

not saying it won't be early 2024 as plenty of trusted partners probably had them already and it all hinges on first party content, but I wouldn't take it as encouraging for the earlier release.

and oh yeah as someone brought it up again - Ridge Racer 8!! this would be so amazing for launch, the glorious return of a franchise MIA on consoles since PS3 (no the other games don't count). it was 100% in development for the OG Switch so it makes sense it was moved to next-gen instead of scrapped. i'm really excited for this one.
Click to expand...
If you assume the uptick is because developers were getting kits or demos at Gamescom you could assume launch is still ~12 months out.

However, playing devils advocate, the first big leak for Switch was from Digital Foundry in June 2016 following some sort of presentation regarding the then "NX" console and Switch was announced in Oct 2016 and Launched in March 2017.
 
The majority of times I've seen comments mocking the Switch for its 'PS2 graphics' and 'low-powered, outdated hardware', it's been in the context of the poor presentation, weak performance and reduced scale of Pokémon games; whether it's Sword & Shield, BDSP, Scarlet & Violet, or even Arceus (which I take issue with there because Legends had a surprisingly gorgeous world all-round), now it's tearing into Detective Pikachu Returns and the DLC trailers from what we got to see earlier today, and it's hard not to take that mockery seriously because in an era of Zelda, Odyssey, Xenoblade, Astral Chain and Monster Hunter, we're stuck with the balloon animals somehow less lively than their N64 era counterparts

If anybody here has played New Snap or Pokkén then you know how stunning the world of Pokémon could look and how believable the Pokémon themselves can be, in the hands of a competent studio that want to make the effort anyway

Sorry, but if Nintendo are eager to showcase their efforts in the advancing of handheld gaming tech and to present their next-gen as something that truly outshines all their previous products while selling itself on its visual experience then there's one developer that should be kept the hell away from the Switch 2's launch year at all costs - and it's Game Freak
 
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Kazuyamishima said:
I wonder what happened to game freak, sun and moon on the 3DS looked amazing and played amazing. Most of the 3DS Pokemon games did look and run great for the most part. Then the switch comes and it looks like they just ported a 3DS game that looks like it has been touched up to work on modern consoles. It was disappointing to me
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It think the issue is that they're a small team spreading themselves too thin in a time where game development on average, takes longer than 3 years and the output of the entire Pokemon franchise does not accommodate either Game Freak's needs as developers or how games of large scales are made these days.

Edit: Typo
 
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Concernt said:
We all have our own viewpoints. For me, the first year of Wii U (which includes much of 2013) was definitely stronger than 2023.
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Going off of memory (not the most reliable indicator, I know), 2018 had Smash Ultimate, Let's Go Pikachu, Kirby Star Allies, Super Mario Party, Tropical Freeze port, Captain Toad port + extra levels, Mario Tennis Aces, Celeste port, Hollow Knight port, Machina game thingy, Dark Souls port, and Octopath Traveler. Were any systems added to NSO in 2018?

Also going off of memory, 2023 has had Fire Emblem Engage, Metroid Prime Remastered, GB/GBC/GBA on NSO, Kirby Return to Dreamland remaster w/ side campaign, Bayonetta Origins, Advance Wars 1 + 2 remakes, Tears of the Kingdom, Pikmin 4, the continued proliferation of Mario Kart DLC, Detective Pikachu 2, Super Mario Wonder, and Super Mario RPG remake.

What are you personally looking for in a great Nintendo year?
 
Foltzie said:
If you assume the uptick is because developers were getting kits or demos at Gamescom you could assume launch is still ~12 months out.

However, playing devils advocate, the first big leak for Switch was from Digital Foundry in June 2016 following some sort of presentation regarding the then "NX" console and Switch was announced in Oct 2016 and Launched in March 2017.
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Not that I don't think Redrakted NG isn't coming out early next year, but "NX" was already said to be released early 2017 by the time that leak came out.

Also, the Switch was kinda slapdash, anyway, so that might not make for the best comparison for when devkits were sent out.
 
Kazuyamishima said:
I wonder what happened to game freak, sun and moon on the 3DS looked amazing and played amazing. Most of the 3DS Pokemon games did look and run great for the most part. Then the switch comes and it looks like they just ported a 3DS game that looks like it has been touched up to work on modern consoles. It was disappointing to me
Click to expand...
No, the 3DS games got shat on a fair bit for how bad their performance could get during Hordes/lots of effects like Totem aura and when you turned 3D on
 
D36 said:
Not that I don't think Redrakted NG isn't coming out early next year, but "NX" was already said to be released early 2017 by the time that leak came out.

Also, the Switch was kinda slapdash, anyway, so that might not make for the best comparison for when devkits were sent out.
Click to expand...
Fair, my point was more about the devkit leaks being tied to launch timeframe, which to be clear I don't think is a good metric beyond "more leaks means hardware is nearing finalization".
 
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