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StarTopic Nintendo General Discussion |ST20 May 2023| Every Teardrop Is A Waterfall

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my assumption is so that there's still ongoing exclusive content coming from PS studios even if the marquee efforts risk taking longer and longer to arrive and appear less frequently
It's a bit simpler than that-- if they hit the GaaS jackpot, they get a reliable source of revenue, plus it gives another reason for people to subscribe to their services. The gaps in their first party releases will be filled in by strategic third party releases, some of which they'll buy timed exclusivity for.

it's arguably more important for Nintendo to maintain their variety of genres and franchises, because I think that mix is key to their success
What's even crazier than the variety of their output is that almost every game they've put out finds a sizable audience. They have so many million sellers.

Nintendo have doubled down on EPD with a big cash injection, higher levels of hiring, and new facilities, as well as seemingly expanding subsidiaries so that they can more frequently provide development support to EPD
Plus they've been working with outside studios, and securing third party games like MH: Rise and Octopath, and of course their good relations with the indies.

whether that results in their games being "samey"
I think it's fair to say that Sony's output currently has a lot of genre/demographic overlap. Definitely the most homogeneous out of the three platform owners. But we shouldn't discount the few outliers (e.g. Ratchet, Sackboy), as well as their AA partnerships (e.g. Stray, Kena, Tchia).

Arguably, the Switch is still not back to pre-Wii levels, even if they can boast high variety
Simply the reality of HD game development. We have to realize that Nintendo is already the most prolific publisher in the market. And even they are never getting back to that level of output, barring some breakthrough in dev tools, or massive internal expansion.
 
I think to understand the complaints about Nintendo's lineup and to see how it has changed we probably have to go back even further, to the GC and N64 era. If you ask older Nintendo fans that's when they had the "best" balance of games aimed at kids and all ages vs. games for enthusiasts and adults. You'd get Mario and Zelda plus stuff like F-Zero and Golden Eye or Eternal Darkness. During the Wii/DS era there was the perception that they focused mostly on casuals and the expanded audience which only gradually changed back.

Arguably, the Switch is still not back to pre-Wii levels, even if they can boast high variety. Their big titles have widened their appeal but there's still holes in their lineup that they never managed or cared to fill.
Right sure, I think that's the case. It's the reason why something like Astral Chain, or the re-emergence of Metroid in the form of Dread and Prime 4, has been important to me as a long time fan: it means, alongside the now infrequent new Zelda titles and Warriors spin offs, there are at least a couple more high quality single player options from Nintendo outside of the family-friendly mascot boxes (Mario, Luigi's Mansion, Kirby, Yoshi etc) and RPGs (Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade). Luckily for Nintendo, I'm a huge RPG fan and a fan of most of the franchises I just listed; but it's good to have both 2D and Prime Metroid back, and I hope that Astral Chain continues, and that Monolith Soft get to make a new action game. That's not a huge amount, but it helps that Dread and Astral Chain are two of my favourite Switch games. On top of consistent Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Bayonetta and Zelda, it's a movement in the right direction. I think, set against the constraints of current development and the small returns on some of these series, Switch has broadly struck a good balance (and who knows how things would look if Bayonetta 3 and Metroid Prime 4 hadn't taken forever).

The other obvious genre to point at (as we've chatted about in the past) would be racing, but that's less in demand across the board. At least it seems Nintendo might dip their toes back into that with F Zero...
 
Simply the reality of HD game development. We have to realize that Nintendo is already the most prolific publisher in the market. And even they are never getting back to that level of output, barring some breakthrough in dev tools, or massive internal expansion.
For sure. Their big titles that have to come out (Zelda, Mario, Animal Crossing etc.) take more and more resources which leaves less for other projects. That's why it's important to occasionally makes the types of games that @MisterSpo mentioned: Metroid, Astral Chain, Bayonetta etc. help diversify their lineup. I just think, and this is something I've been harping on since pre-Fami days, that this is an area they could improve further.
 
The advantage of more stuff like Astral Chain and Dread is getting not just IP variety, or more adult-facing games, but we also get more aesthetic variety and, significantly, we get to see more of what Nintendo and their collaborators can do in different genres.

It's why I like seeing companies like Mages and WayForward work with Nintendo; they're not going to make the next Astral Chain, but if those working relationships go well and are maintained, the odds of a wider variety of stuff becomes higher.

Astral Chain is the poster child for that kind of thing on Switch for me; it's not a game I would ever have thought to ask for but it's one of my very favourite Switch games. The world where EPD get to make a little more of that stuff with different developers is a good one.
 
So I finally found some anime to watch, Spy x Family. And it's GREAT! With it and Origami King, I'm ready to waste time and make it go faster, speeding towards Friday.
 
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One other thing I forgot to mention about the Mario movie... The inclusion of licensed music felt incredibly jarring at times. And the fact that they were pulling songs largely from the 80s and 90s is further proof of GenX baiting (aside from "Battle Without Honor or Humanity" which... yes, we've seen Kill Bill too 😂 ).


This tongue in cheek thread does a good job of (playfully... or maybe whimsically??) showing why some people might have fallen out of love with some of Sony's first-party games. It's not the lack of creativity let alone quality but the loss of a certain intangible characteristic that is slowly falling out of favour with their internal studios and/or publishing arm.

It's not like they don't make these types of games anymore. Ratchet & Clank and Sackboy exist and Astro Bot is arguably as whimsical as any of their classic titles. But I see it similarly to how Nintendo's output is seen largely as targeting kids or "all ages", with only a few titles aimed at older gamers. And this perception is only further fueled by the decreasing total number of releases which has affected every publisher.
I feel like Sony is perpetually stuck in this early 2000's mindset of "please take games seriously!" which I could've sworn the medium has largely moved on from in the last decade or so. Like when games are getting talked about on the late night shows or popping up in SNL skits, and adaptations into film and TV and happening with increasing regularity, the medium is officially "mainstream" (even if it's still only catering to less than 1% of the global population).

But like this mindset makes them appear somewhat insecure, where they're almost ashamed to have this playful side to them because "serious" means "sad dads" and "cinematic presentation" because they seem to think that in order to gain respect they have to be like Hollywood. Which, when Sony Pictures exists, makes some sense that there would be some cross-pollenation or pollution especially with the SIE branch being largely run out of the US rather than Japan.

The advantage of more stuff like Astral Chain and Dread is getting not just IP variety, or more adult-facing games, but we also get more aesthetic variety and, significantly, we get to see more of what Nintendo and their collaborators can do in different genres.

It's why I like seeing companies like Mages and WayForward work with Nintendo; they're not going to make the next Astral Chain, but if those working relationships go well and are maintained, the odds of a wider variety of stuff becomes higher.

Astral Chain is the poster child for that kind of thing on Switch for me; it's not a game I would ever have thought to ask for but it's one of my very favourite Switch games. The world where EPD get to make a little more of that stuff with different developers is a good one.
I think Nintendo has always kinda done this but maybe it wasn't as clear cut back in the day? Like the Mother series largely came about because of Itoi itching the first game and Yamauchi wanting to create a space for outside creatives to make games which is how Ape Inc. got funded.
 
Spy x Family
Hell yes, give in to the cuteness that is Anya Forger

this is an area they could improve further
I guess I'm not quite understanding what the "area" is? Like if we're talking about general diversity of output, I think Nintendo has done well bringing us stuff like Astral Chain to Snipperclips. They could do more, but I'm not expecting much until, like, a decade later, after their internal expansion bears fruit.

Astral Chain is the poster child for that kind of thing on Switch for me; it's not a game I would ever have thought to ask for but it's one of my very favourite Switch games. The world where EPD get to make a little more of that stuff with different developers is a good one.
Nintendo is definitely going to continue working with different developers. It's one of the prominent ways they've tried to maintain their software output in the Switch generation. We've also seen their core staff assuming more supervisory roles over projects being done by external studios, from big titles like FE3H to even indies like Cadence of Hyrule.

I feel like Sony is perpetually stuck in this early 2000's mindset of "please take games seriously!" which I could've sworn the medium has largely moved on from in the last decade or so
Feel like this is doing their games a disservice. If anything, their cinematic games are well received commercially and critically. I'm not generally a fan of their first party stuff, but there's clearly an audience for them.
 
One other thing I forgot to mention about the Mario movie... The inclusion of licensed music felt incredibly jarring at times. And the fact that they were pulling songs largely from the 80s and 90s is further proof of GenX baiting (aside from "Battle Without Honor or Humanity" which... yes, we've seen Kill Bill too 😂 ).


I feel like Sony is perpetually stuck in this early 2000's mindset of "please take games seriously!" which I could've sworn the medium has largely moved on from in the last decade or so. Like when games are getting talked about on the late night shows or popping up in SNL skits, and adaptations into film and TV and happening with increasing regularity, the medium is officially "mainstream" (even if it's still only catering to less than 1% of the global population).

But like this mindset makes them appear somewhat insecure, where they're almost ashamed to have this playful side to them because "serious" means "sad dads" and "cinematic presentation" because they seem to think that in order to gain respect they have to be like Hollywood. Which, when Sony Pictures exists, makes some sense that there would be some cross-pollenation or pollution especially with the SIE branch being largely run out of the US rather than Japan.


I think Nintendo has always kinda done this but maybe it wasn't as clear cut back in the day? Like the Mother series largely came about because of Itoi itching the first game and Yamauchi wanting to create a space for outside creatives to make games which is how Ape Inc. got funded.

the big budget cinematic stuff they focus so heavily on kinda feeds into that mindset in a way, when you're taking inspiration so heavily from movies and such you want validation in similar ways

which makes it all the more funny that it's Nintendo who is basically the opposite of that that just released the billion dollar movie
 
Continuing from some posts above me, one of my big hopes with 2023 and beyond is that Nintendo will get a few more experiments in before we move on to Switch 2. I’m a little disappointed this has mostly taken the form of remakes/remasters so far however excellent they have been, but I’m glad it seems the Switch audience is still really hungry for quality games so Nintendo is still getting that direct feedback of what properties are worth coming back to. I’m hoping games like Famicom Detective Club, Advance Wars Reboot Camp, and hopefully F-Zero GX HD are big hits enough to justify really bringing those franchises back in the future. I’d love to have those franchises and others like them join the more regular franchises and become bigger and better and offer new adventures/experiences.

Like @MisterSpo said too, those partnerships could lead to some really cool legitimately new things down the line too. Like what does a MAGES x Nintendo all new game franchise look like, same for WayForward. Totally new IP is super exciting. I wasn’t as hot on the final game as some others here, but the Astral Chain reveal trailer is perhaps my favorite trailer of the Switch era (I go back and forth on that and Everyone Is Here). Was so excited by the possibilities it presented and I still did really enjoy the final game even if it wasn’t one of my favorites.

I don’t know how much we’ll ultimately see of Nintendo’s future in the next Direct and there’s a bunch of stuff I think will be there that I’m excited about, but yeah this is the stuff that really gets me so excited.
 
Feel like this is doing their games a disservice. If anything, their cinematic games are well received commercially and critically. I'm not generally a fan of their first party stuff, but there's clearly an audience for them.
I wasn't saying it wasn't working for them. Just it feels sorta try-hard / "notice me senpai" at a point in time where that specific culture war is basically over in the West. People are playing games more than ever before, game adjacent media is popular, they're getting talked about in more mainstream venues. This is a far cry from where things were in the early-to-mid 2000's when Western developers and 20-something fans were starting to make noise about "LOOK AT THIS! GAMES CAN HAVE STORY TOO! I HAS FEELS!", and it feels like Sony is just still stuck in that mindset nearly 20 years later.

I do think that focus and mindset limits their audience to a degree, but that's mostly because Nintendo basically dominates the other sides of the age range: either kids or people in their 30s who have aged out of the "give me something 'mature'" phase from their teens/20s and are just looking for a fun way to unwind after work or during their commute and possibly share it with their kids. But I think that's a different discussion.

which makes it all the more funny that it's Nintendo who is basically the opposite of that that just released the billion dollar movie
Ehhhh. I don't know if I would go that far. Mario is deeply rooted in Mickey Mouse and Popeye. Nintendo may not be as overt in their aims but there's a very cinematic history to their golden goose franchise.

It also certainly helps that the property is well suited for G/PG audiences which can pull in a ton of money because it's a very large audience range.
 
So I finally found some anime to watch, Spy x Family. And it's GREAT! With it and Origami King, I'm ready to waste time and make it go faster, speeding towards Friday.
No idea why they dumped it on B-leagues, Shonen Jump+, Spy x Family is really good. Reminds me of Black Cat manga of old. Honestly many of the manga within SJ+ are much better than Weekly serializations, like Kaiju No 8, Dandadan and Hell's Paradise. SXF most likely won't get video game treatment because of its side publication status.
 
The advantage of more stuff like Astral Chain and Dread is getting not just IP variety, or more adult-facing games, but we also get more aesthetic variety and, significantly, we get to see more of what Nintendo and their collaborators can do in different genres.

It's why I like seeing companies like Mages and WayForward work with Nintendo; they're not going to make the next Astral Chain, but if those working relationships go well and are maintained, the odds of a wider variety of stuff becomes higher.

Astral Chain is the poster child for that kind of thing on Switch for me; it's not a game I would ever have thought to ask for but it's one of my very favourite Switch games. The world where EPD get to make a little more of that stuff with different developers is a good one.
Dread and Famicom Detective (AC too) are some of my favorite switch games. Those relationships are really important not only for IP variety but fostering talent. Which kinda sucked when the report of MAGES being insolvent came out. Hopefully they ride it out, cause I want another FCD, and the head of MAGES also wants to make another one lol.
 
No idea why they dumped it on B-leagues, Shonen Jump+, Spy x Family is really good
I don't think Shonen Jump+ is considered the B-leagues, it's just a different Shueisha publication with different authorial demands. Some mangaka pick to be published on Plus because the workload is more forgiving and they have more freedom with their page counts. It's really not a case of the higher quality manga going to the main magazine.

Just it feels sorta try-hard / "notice me senpai"
Don't get me wrong, I've hardly been impressed with the stories of their story-heavy games. Just playing devil's advocate here-- we might think they're try-hard, but for a lot of other people, they're not.
 
Starting from July of last year, the following has or will have been released in a year:

New Zelda
New Xenoblade + DLC
New Fire Emblem
New Final Fantasy
New Octopath Traveler
Metroid Prime Remaster
Final Fantasy 1 - 6 remasters on consoles

The well for my particular tastes is going to be spent for a while. There's the next FF VII Remake game and Baten Kaitos HD on the horizon but that's about it. I'm interested in stuff like Pikmin 4 and of course if there is a new Mario game or something, that will be exciting as well but they don't excite me to the same level as the sprawling adventures listed above.
 
Starting from July of last year, the following has or will have been released in a year:

New Zelda
New Xenoblade + DLC
New Fire Emblem
New Final Fantasy
New Octopath Traveler
Metroid Prime Remaster
Final Fantasy 1 - 6 remasters on consoles
New Pokemon as well!
 
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Starting from July of last year, the following has or will have been released in a year:

New Zelda
New Xenoblade + DLC
New Fire Emblem
New Final Fantasy
New Octopath Traveler
Metroid Prime Remaster
Final Fantasy 1 - 6 remasters on consoles

The well for my particular tastes is going to be spent for a while. There's the next FF VII Remake game and Baten Kaitos HD on the horizon but that's about it. I'm interested in stuff like Pikmin 4 and of course if there is a new Mario game or something, that will be exciting as well but they don't excite me to the same level as the sprawling adventures listed above.
I bought all of these and played (will play Zelda). Except Final Fantasy XVI. And will get BK HD and FFVII remake part 2 (probably a next year title)

Pretty good year so far
 
A measly four and a half days left, now. Compared to the wait from announcement to now, that's like... a rounding error

also like half as long as has already passed between the game leaking and now

which also kinda shows how absurdly long before release the game leaked but still
 
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I guess I'm not quite understanding what the "area" is? Like if we're talking about general diversity of output, I think Nintendo has done well bringing us stuff like Astral Chain to Snipperclips. They could do more, but I'm not expecting much until, like, a decade later, after their internal expansion bears fruit.
I was talking more about diversity in tone and consequently appeal. Although it also relates to how they treat certain genres. In general they do a pretty good job, better than most, I agree. Where Nintendo has somewhat stagnated or even regressed over the years (imho!) is that they've widened the target audience of their output at the expense of games that appeal to more specific groups.

This is apparent in the age ratings of their games, for example. Even though they're tonally distinct, Nintendo titles heavily target lower age ratings where mature themes or violence are either toned down or cartoonified. The overwhelming majority of games they make is rated E, sometimes you get BotW or Splatoon which push E10+. Non-EPD series like Fire Emblem, Xenoblade and Metroid and the odd smaller title like Astral Chain or Famicom Detective Club is where they go for somewhat heavier content, resulting in a T. Bayonetta is the only active M-rated series and it isn't even theirs.

Somewhat connected to this is that certain genres have been reduced to one or two series, oftentimes in unsatisfying ways. We used to get multiple racing games per generation whereas now it's only Mario Kart (with the current iteration being a decade old). No F-Zero, no Wave Race, no Diddy Kong Racing, no Excite. Or how they don't really seem to care about horror games. Luigi's Mansion might be horror-adjacent but it's not really what fans of the genre want. Splatoon is their "multiplayer shooter" but isn't really a sufficient replacement for Goldeneye etc.

I'm not oblivious of the multitude of factors that have led to this and I also know this is an extremely high standard to hold anyone to. Nintendo's approach has obviously been extremely successful for them during the Switch generation and I think it's good to have more high-quality console games that appeal to wider audiences and kids. Focusing on what they do best yields, in my opinion, the best games. I don't really need to see Mario team's take on The Last of Us. At the same time, it's easy to look at their output and feel like some of the edge or uniqueness from earlier generations is missing. Or just expressed differently, I guess.

(Sorry, this took longer to pen than I anticipated because I kept getting distracted.)
 
Interesting to see that Sony might have timed exclusivity for MGS and Castlevania on top of Silent Hill 2. I guess their strategy with Japanese publishers is to secure AAA-games in series that have been traditionally associated with PlayStation. Wonder what's next because I doubt they will stop here.
 
Interesting to see that Sony might have timed exclusivity for MGS and Castlevania on top of Silent Hill 2. I guess their strategy with Japanese publishers is to secure AAA-games in series that have been traditionally associated with PlayStation. Wonder what's next because I doubt they will stop here.
I assume this is for the MGS3 remake that’s been rumored for years. Can’t say I’m particularly enthused about what Konami might do with the series though.
 
I assume this is for the MGS3 remake that’s been rumored for years. Can’t say I’m particularly enthused about what Konami might do with the series though.
Seems like it, yeah.

I'm also somewhat apprehensive about Konami reviving these franchises, especially since they gave the Silent Hill 2 remake to Bloober. But who knows...
 
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Interesting to see that Sony might have timed exclusivity for MGS and Castlevania on top of Silent Hill 2. I guess their strategy with Japanese publishers is to secure AAA-games in series that have been traditionally associated with PlayStation. Wonder what's next because I doubt they will stop here.
MGS seems like a given, Castlevania idk. For MGS the rumor is Virtous, but I don't know who Konami task with a castlevania game. Do they go back to MS and do a Lords of Shadow or something a kin to Dread? As far as exclusivity, I do wonder if Konami would let a 2D castlevania exclusive (3D sure). We will probably know soon.
 
hey fami, what's your favourite Link's design?
Mine is definitely TotK's :
89nx.jpg

I love that they added armor pieces as well as a cape and a hood. He has an adventurous side. And he finally looks like Zelda's personal knight now. Some people may find it overdesigned compared to BotW but I think that it adds a lot to his character.
 
Interesting to see that Sony might have timed exclusivity for MGS and Castlevania on top of Silent Hill 2. I guess their strategy with Japanese publishers is to secure AAA-games in series that have been traditionally associated with PlayStation. Wonder what's next because I doubt they will stop here.
I have my doubts on Castlevania. Who they have to take on that? MercurySteam? They're Nintendo's buddies now. Iga himself? He's doing his on vania. Best WayForward? A 2D CV doesn't sound like current PS audience would appreciate. Platinum? They sounded like they are happy working with Nintendo.
 
So I think the SMT 30th Anniversary celebration ends today (or ended). It seems they did not announced anything, outside of merch.

I hope this helps people set expectations lol. First Persona now SMT
Nah man we're about to get Banjo Kazooie Redooie for the 25th, Ocarina of Time HD for that 25th, Star Fox:The Lylat Wars for the 30th, Megaman X9 for the 30th, Mario Kart Triple Dash for the 20th, Persona 4 2 fo-
 
I have my doubts on Castlevania. Who they have to take on that? MercurySteam? They're Nintendo's buddies now. Iga himself? He's doing his on vania. Best WayForward? A 2D CV doesn't sound like current PS audience would appreciate. Platinum? They sounded like they are happy working with Nintendo.
Well, nobody said this will necessarily be good. Konami still has in-house development staff and recently opened a studio in Osaka. They could easily tap some studio most of us don't know the same way they're doing with Silent Hill f.
 
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Probably won’t happen, but given the last Dead Cells DLC I would absolutely love to see Motion Twin work on a 2D Castlevania.
I haven’t played it but that announcement totally felt like a “ok this is a dry run for the real thing in a couple years” situation
 
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Interesting to see that Sony might have timed exclusivity for MGS and Castlevania on top of Silent Hill 2. I guess their strategy with Japanese publishers is to secure AAA-games in series that have been traditionally associated with PlayStation. Wonder what's next because I doubt they will stop here.
Capcom games not monster hunter or AA have to be next
 
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I said I wouldn't buy a new game until TotK but here I am even though I already own it digitally lol

getsufumadenkcdqk.jpg
This game has been on my wishlist since release, how is it?
So I think the SMT 30th Anniversary celebration ends today (or ended). It seems they did not announced anything, outside of merch.

I hope this helps people set expectations lol. First Persona now SMT
The moment those pictures were "leaked" showing the MCs of SMTIV and SMTIVA mirrored I had a feeling the rumors were bs. Maybe something will happen down the line, but for now I'm glad I didn't take them seriously.

This tongue in cheek thread does a good job of (playfully... or maybe whimsically??) showing why some people might have fallen out of love with some of Sony's first-party games. It's not the lack of creativity let alone quality but the loss of a certain intangible characteristic that is slowly falling out of favour with their internal studios and/or publishing arm.

It's not like they don't make these types of games anymore. Ratchet & Clank and Sackboy exist and Astro Bot is arguably as whimsical as any of their classic titles. But I see it similarly to how Nintendo's output is seen largely as targeting kids or "all ages", with only a few titles aimed at older gamers. And this perception is only further fueled by the decreasing total number of releases which has affected every publisher.
I'm not clicking on that link, but reading your post just reminds me of how much I miss Patapon.
 
I have a sudden urge to replay Donkey Kong Country Returns. Would be awesome if it got an HD/Remastered version.
 
Apropos of nothing, I am watching a neat outdoor cooking video and this dude just caramelized onions in Hennessy and I thought @NateDrake aughta know.
 
it's easy to look at their output and feel like some of the edge or uniqueness from earlier generations is missing. Or just expressed differently, I guess
I guess I can understand that. I think my perspective is that Nintendo is faring better on that front compared to other publishers.

hey fami, what's your favourite Link's design?
For me it's Toon Link. And I don't even like Wind Waker haha.

It's a crime that no one's copied that gameplay concept yet. Patapon was addicting.
 
Interesting to see that Sony might have timed exclusivity for MGS and Castlevania on top of Silent Hill 2. I guess their strategy with Japanese publishers is to secure AAA-games in series that have been traditionally associated with PlayStation. Wonder what's next because I doubt they will stop here.
To me this a play mostly for the West as I don’t think these titles will do much in JP, especially not with that PS5 sw situation. My guess is trying to get exclusivity of other “big” software out of publishers like in the bracket of say Forspoken.
 
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