How many people lost sleep over the voice change when the trailer dropped?
And how many people will lose sleep if the game was not made by platinum?
You can guess the rest.
-
Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.
-
Do you have audio editing experience and want to help out with the Famiboards Discussion Club Podcast? If so, we're looking for help and would love to have you on the team! Just let us know in the Podcast Thread if you are interested!
Pre-Release Bayonetta 3 — Pre-release Discussion Thread
- Thread starter mazi
- Start date
- Status
And how many people will lose sleep if the game was not made by platinum?
You can guess the rest.
This. Not sure how anyone can claim otherwise, current controversy or not. No need to minify her significance for the franchise.
No one is diminishing her significance. She did a pretty great job in 1 and 2. But saying she is bayonetta and it should fail if she is not voicing her rubs me the wrong way. She don't own bayonetta . Her significance pales in comparison to all the dev, programmer, designer, artist, composers who created the franchise.
Aether
Tingle
I mean... The audience is not a monolith.
For some? Probably.
Universally? Eh.
Some care, some not.
Some hate that there are 2 playable charactets.
Some dont like the new design for reasons.
I get how people are angry for that. Its obvious that many care since the topic of the VA was present before we knew anything about the situation.
On the other hand, the preorders are a sign that a lot of the audience doesnt care.
Me personally, im rather indifferent as long as the VA is good. (For the moment lets ignore the sorounding cirkumstances)
Edit:
For everybody thats so "shes the character":
Whats about
Kenichiro Yoshimura? (Lead chracter modeler)
Eijiro Nishimura? Lead animator
Hideki Kamiya is lead story writer
Jean Pierre Kellams, who adapted it to english?
Helena Noguerra, who sang the theme and fly me to the moon? (The songs for me are a bigger part of bayonetta)
Mari Shimazaki, conceptual character design?
Yuji Shimomura, cinematic director?
And next to all of those, the person that did participate in 16 of recording is now THE character?
Last edited:
I don't disagree. I think there's a line where you can appreciate her or recognise her significance while still being open to change, like Hale taking over.
I'm thankful for Hellena's contributions and think she deserves being recognised and being compensated accordingly. But I still acknowledge that she's basically "disposable", as harsh as that may sound, from a pure production standpoint (and for some fans as well, as it seems).
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm not gonna minify her significance for the franchise, and I really liked what her voice added to the character.
With that said, considering recent events, she's probably also at least attempted to do significant harm to the franchise, and it's yet to see if it was at all justified. So while I thank her for her help in bringing Bayonetta to life in the past, and respect her work there, I absolutely can't get behind:
-At least misrepresenting a situation to hurt the dev team behind the games, since those paltry 4k apparently are 50% over the minimum rate everyone else was okay with.
-Attacking a fellow VA for taking an apparently decently paid job she voluntarily passed on.
-Rallying twitter to attack both the aforementioned parties.
It would be a thing if this was focused as a "look, VAs get paid too little", but she seems to have tackled this as "I specifically was underpaid" when it is seeming like it absolutely wasn't. She might have valid points, but the way she's gone about them is absolutely not the right one.
I can sympathize with her situation, and understand her feelings, and I do hope she can sort everything out, but I find it pretty hard to do more than that.
I certainly agree with what you've written here, yeah. All I intended to express/stress was that appreciating her and feeling for her situation doesn't exclude being critical of how she's been dealing with all of this. Your post (and prior posts, iirc) have made that point already and pretty well, I'd say.
So, yeah -- I share your view on the situation.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Also for the record, I absolutely don't want to paint Hellena as a bad person here, either. I don't know the full details of her current situation, but she does seem to not be doing that well. Good people, when driven to extreme circumstances, can do terrible things. I'm absolutely convinced this entire thing isn't her actively wanting to do harm to anyone, as much as being desperate for whatever circumstances, and not making the best decisions because of that.
The motion capture actress surely put more time into the character as well and her contribution is much more important, but we don't even know her name or if it were different people for 1, 2 and Smash.
Hellena was someone important but not critical. Maybe it was unwillingly, but if the boycott had succeeded she would have actually destroyed the IP, it's already a miracle we got a second and third entries.
Edit: To clarify, my point is that Hellena thinks Bayonetta is a much bigger thing than it really is, that Platinum has funds to spare and that the franchise can shrug off poor sales like it was CoD or Pokémon.
Aether
Tingle
Oh yeah, i forgot about her!
Yeah, i had a rough breakdown on her estimatimates, and even with overblown salesdata and the asumption that at least 2 thirds where full price (and we know that rereleases where not and that 1&2 got bundled a lot...) shes üverestimating how much the game made for platinum and the devs, and im not even talking about development cost...
- Pronouns
- he/him
In the end, what I think would make Arkin's statement more true is to say the vocal talent (unless it's a certified "big name") is often not the "main draw" or "star attraction" for the majority of people buying a game. Or at least, certainly not in the West.
For example, Reuben Langdon has been replaced as the English VA for Ken for SF6, after being his main English voice since 2008. Now, whether some may applaud the change or not within various internet circles, the fact of the matter is that the larger audience...isn't losing sleep over it. The most important thing for a lot is that they can go back to playing their favorite character again, and "Flowchart Ken" memes can resume for another generation.
Again, this isn't to demean or reduce the significance of what vocal talent brings to a game. And I can certainly understand how we can grow to be attached to a certain performer. But much like Langdon, himself, was the (second) replacement for "my" Dante, Drew Coombs, from the original DMC, I was able to move on. Especially since the most important thing to me was DMC3 being an awesome game that made me feel good and stylish while killing demons, again.
Not to mention I felt it also gave a middle finger to veteran JP VA, Atsuko Tanaka, who's also been Bayonetta's voice actress since 2013.
- Pronouns
- she, they
I know the talk is another thing, but this trailer
Giant spider with woman torso, an emo kid, pink haired Bayonetta with clothes straight out of Overwatch, more fashion statements (always guaranteed), clash of the multiverses, some drama, half naked Bayonetta controlling a colorful giant talking toad, "I will not bow to anyone again, not even myself", all the while there's God-fearing gospel music playing in the background, yeah, I need this in my life, this is my brand
EDIT:
EDIT 2:
Giant spider with woman torso, an emo kid, pink haired Bayonetta with clothes straight out of Overwatch, more fashion statements (always guaranteed), clash of the multiverses, some drama, half naked Bayonetta controlling a colorful giant talking toad, "I will not bow to anyone again, not even myself", all the while there's God-fearing gospel music playing in the background, yeah, I need this in my life, this is my brand
EDIT:
EDIT 2:
I'm still conflicted by this whole situation, I don't know what to think or do
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- they/she
Bayo 1 sold 2 million across PS3 and Xbox 360 before the Wii U port
Bayo 1 sold 170k in its first month on Steam
Bayo 2 sold 300k in its first month on Wii U
Bayo 2 sold 1.04 million in its four-ish years on Switch
Therefore there's 3,474,000 known units sold, all of which will have at least 33% taken by the platform, more if at retail but we'll ignore that since some known units are missing anyways. We're also going to ignore the game going on sale, etc.
Which puts the franchise at having sold a very rough $138,960,000 game-copies based on known data.
The only way Taylor could have even been remotely telling the truth about the $450 million claim is if she was aware of proprietary sales info, but I don't see why she'd be made aware of that since her role is as a voice actress.
I think one way she may have come up with that number is
Bayo 1 sold 170k in its first month on Steam
Bayo 2 sold 300k in its first month on Wii U
Bayo 2 sold 1.04 million in its four-ish years on Switch
Therefore there's 3,474,000 known units sold, all of which will have at least 33% taken by the platform, more if at retail but we'll ignore that since some known units are missing anyways. We're also going to ignore the game going on sale, etc.
Which puts the franchise at having sold a very rough $138,960,000 game-copies based on known data.
The only way Taylor could have even been remotely telling the truth about the $450 million claim is if she was aware of proprietary sales info, but I don't see why she'd be made aware of that since her role is as a voice actress.
I think one way she may have come up with that number is
she looked at the wikipedia articles for 1 and 2, saw there are 7 distinct release dates between them, assumed a million sales each, then multiplied that by $60 (bringing to $420 million) and rounded up to $450 million for appearances in other games like Smash Bros.
Last edited:
Neves
Bob-omb
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Just a small correction - 1.04 million is as of Dec 2021 so this number is fairly up to date.
Nmanic
Bob-omb
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think at this point I'm feeling okay to buy it at launch. If it comes out there was some violation of union rules then I'll reconsider, but afaik no one is really claiming that (including Taylor).
I can totally sympathize with the argument for VAs being paid more, but I think that should be a discussion about the current union contracts. The more I see, the more it does not feel anymore like this was a particularly exceptional circumstance unique to Platinum/Nintendo, so I don't personally believe this calls for a boycott of Bayo 3... Unless the call was to boycott the whole industry until royalties are negotiated, which, idk! Maybe it will be! That would at least feel more like a call to action for the issue at hand.
As far as Taylor's wishes, since I do empathize with her situation and respect her call to donating to charity, I plan to donate $60 to a local food bank. I saw someone earlier in this thread mentioning a donation match and, tbh even if you disagree with everything Taylor said, I think a call to donate what you can to charity is always worthwhile.
It's not like anyone needs to justify their actions to a tribunal, but I thought I'd share my own feelings here anyway. I've seen more reasonable discourse here than on the bird app, so I feel more comfortable sharing my thoughts here than other places
I can totally sympathize with the argument for VAs being paid more, but I think that should be a discussion about the current union contracts. The more I see, the more it does not feel anymore like this was a particularly exceptional circumstance unique to Platinum/Nintendo, so I don't personally believe this calls for a boycott of Bayo 3... Unless the call was to boycott the whole industry until royalties are negotiated, which, idk! Maybe it will be! That would at least feel more like a call to action for the issue at hand.
As far as Taylor's wishes, since I do empathize with her situation and respect her call to donating to charity, I plan to donate $60 to a local food bank. I saw someone earlier in this thread mentioning a donation match and, tbh even if you disagree with everything Taylor said, I think a call to donate what you can to charity is always worthwhile.
It's not like anyone needs to justify their actions to a tribunal, but I thought I'd share my own feelings here anyway. I've seen more reasonable discourse here than on the bird app, so I feel more comfortable sharing my thoughts here than other places
- Pronouns
- he/him
Basically where I'm at right now as well (and have been for a bit now since the situation has become a bit more clear)I think at this point I'm feeling okay to buy it at launch. If it comes out there was some violation of union rules then I'll reconsider, but afaik no one is really claiming that (including Taylor).
I can totally sympathize with the argument for VAs being paid more, but I think that should be a discussion about the current union contracts. The more I see, the more it does not feel anymore like this was a particularly exceptional circumstance unique to Platinum/Nintendo, so I don't personally believe this calls for a boycott of Bayo 3... Unless the call was to boycott the whole industry until royalties are negotiated, which, idk! Maybe it will be! That would at least feel more like a call to action for the issue at hand.
As far as Taylor's wishes, since I do empathize with her situation and respect her call to donating to charity, I plan to donate $60 to a local food bank. I saw someone earlier in this thread mentioning a donation match and, tbh even if you disagree with everything Taylor said, I think a call to donate what you can to charity is always worthwhile.
It's not like anyone needs to justify their actions to a tribunal, but I thought I'd share my own feelings here anyway. I've seen more reasonable discourse here than on the bird app, so I feel more comfortable sharing my thoughts here than other places
Yes, the base pay for VAs is likely too low, but this doesn't seem like any sort of exceptional case. Taylor was likely offered at least a bit above the minimum union rate (as evidenced by the fact that she negotiated up to $4000). Now, it could be that she was initially offered the union minimum for 4 sessions and negotiated up $100, but that feels less likely to me (And I mean, I at least would've brought up the second offer being only $100 more since that's a pretty big insult in itself).
I think it's more likely that due to the existence of Viola, Bayo has less story focus and thus fewer voice lines to record, bringing the sessions to 3 or 2 and Taylor's payment a fair deal above the minimum.
Overall, I still feel for Taylor, especially since she seems to be in a rough spot, but this doesn't seem like it should've been a scandal, especially not one that blew up as much as it did. I just hope that the backlash against this does some good in terms of raising VA pay, whether or not said backlash was necessarily justified
This was a recent revelation to me as well, but indeed the "motion signature" of Bayonetta is as iconic as any other part of her characterization.
ResetEran L_Thammy (not sure if they are here) shared this bit o knowledge:
GREAT video
Had no idea, but yea, thats Bayo (too)!
Bloomberg has a new article about the situation.
I can't read it, due to pay wall but according to Schreier, "Platinum offered Hellena Taylor between $3k and $4k per session for at least 5 sessions, according to two people familiar with the deal and documentation viewed by Bloomberg. In response, the people said, Taylor asked for a six-figure fee and residuals. Negotiations fell apart"
Very interesting, and paints a completely different light on the situation.
I can't read it, due to pay wall but according to Schreier, "Platinum offered Hellena Taylor between $3k and $4k per session for at least 5 sessions, according to two people familiar with the deal and documentation viewed by Bloomberg. In response, the people said, Taylor asked for a six-figure fee and residuals. Negotiations fell apart"
Very interesting, and paints a completely different light on the situation.
SNP
Sorcerer Supreme
- Pronouns
- He/Him
new update from Bloomberg about the situation, I will not comment on this either because I don't know if that pay is good or not... but it definitely more than $4000 for a whole game.
Edit: Also seem like in the article, Taylor reply to the email from Bloomberg about this matter and said PG is lying and trying to save face.
Last edited:
Deformed_Lunchbox
Octorok
- Pronouns
- (he/him)
I keep checking this thread hoping there are more coverage or trailers! I can't wait for this game.
HockeyBird
Villager
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Were you honestly expecting them to say something? You have someone who broke NDA so this might be a legal matter in which case of course they wouldn't rush to write something to make people on Twitter happy. Beyond that, what could they say that would make people satisfied? Probably nothing.
OP
OP
yep. not sure why the mods ended up locking the thread about the VA drama. the result has been that the VA discussion overtaking the pre-release thread.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I find the replies to Schrier's tweet very interesting. If that info is true she really misconstrued and misled people in her original video by making it sound like it was 4k total rather than per session but people don't really seem bothered by that and instead just say she should be getting more than that anyway? I thought this was about her not getting a living wage?
Lelouch0612
Growing Install Base
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You don't even need to have additional context. If Bloomberg is right, and they claim to have access to the documentation, then she just lied publicly with her video.
Which you wouldn't really need if your point was legitimate in the first place.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
Cappy
- Pronouns
- He/him
Think there should be a new thread re the Bloomberg article & the drama and this for everything else. There's still more than a week to go and I'm sure there will be more trailers, reviews, early impressions etc. All that shouldn't be overshadowed IMO.
MSnap
Kremling
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A lot of people also seem to be mixing up the phrase “overlapping circumstances” with “scheduling conflict” and think that PlatinumGames said she didn’t have time to do it
OP
OP
working on it
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Pretty awful that Kamiya was harassed and insulted by tons of people when potentially he was completely right that she was lying. Don't think a single one of those people will care about that though.
OP
OP
Bloomberg - A tense pay dispute overshadows Nintendo’s upcoming Bayonetta 3, more info about the VA situation (UP: new twitter thread from Taylor)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-18/bayonetta-3-voice-actor-s-pay-dispute-overshadows-nintendo-game A pay dispute between the creator of a critically acclaimed video game series and its star voice actor reignited a long-simmering debate over wages in the industry. As is often the...
famiboards.com
- Pronouns
- he/him
Thanks mazi! Hope regular conversation about the actual game can settle into this thread now.Bloomberg - A tense pay dispute overshadows Nintendo’s upcoming Bayonetta 3, more info about the VA situation (UP: new twitter thread from Taylor)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-18/bayonetta-3-voice-actor-s-pay-dispute-overshadows-nintendo-game A pay dispute between the creator of a critically acclaimed video game series and its star voice actor reignited a long-simmering debate over wages in the industry. As is often the...
lemonfresh
#Team2024
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Been hype for this game for 5 years cant believe its almost here
DunningSmith
Boo
Tears in my eyes, we are one week away from greatness...
- Pronouns
- He/Him
𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕾𝖍𝖆𝖉𝖔𝖜 𝕽𝖊𝖒𝖆𝖎𝖓𝖘 𝕮𝖆𝖘𝖙
- Pronouns
- he/him
Started seeing this plenty in my Bayo 2 playthrough
Mr.Gamerson
Octorok
This number also doesn't account for the development and marketing costs.
- Pronouns
- he/him
Playing Bayo 2 last night and wishing we were in the timeline where Square-Enix contracted PG for the next Kingdom Hearts game instead of Babylon’s Fall
I only learned this was a thing last week
- Pronouns
- He/Him
God I can't wait for this to come out.
MSnap
Kremling
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I’ve played maybe 60 hours between the Wii U and Switch versions of the first game and still never came close to unlocking her lol. Getting her in 2 is easy though.
Supreme Overlord
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
- Pronouns
- he/him
[Edit]Since this post relates to following up regarding the whole fiasco that's been unfolding, and we now have a new thread once more, I'm wrapping it in spoiler tags so as to minimize its footprint on the page.[/edit]
For instance, suggesting that someone's story can't be entirely believed because they follow some unrelated people on whatever social, or because they referred to a passage from the Bible, really isn't a compelling argument -- and I question even considering it an argument. It's better to consider actual evidence -- of which time has provided in differing qualities.
That's different from seeing details about a person and having that color your opinion of them. Assimilating information as such is how we form these opinions, after all. While I would caution basing a strong opinion of someone entirely on their Follows and similar such -- I, at least, know people who will follow individuals with ideologies diametrically opposed to their own, or theoretically adjacent yet still wildly divergent, if only to keep informed on what these sorts of people are saying and believing -- I certainly can't tell you to just not develop an opinion. This is more likely to be accepted; it's just not particularly connected to the discussion.
I hope that helped explain some things.
I don't know that there's any reason you'd specifically be a subject of the post, and I certainly wouldn't suggest an opinion that his Twitter is toxic would itself contribute to the issues. I personally think the bar for handling his Twitter presence better isn't high.
Now, this particular instance didn't require people to have a developed opinion on Kamiya, nor to be invested in him personally. It was reactive.
The whole post was regarding the discourse in general, here, elsewhere, and everywhere beyond. It has all largely swirled together, but, as I recall, Fami has been remarkably tame and reasonable in comparison to elsewhere.
It's certainly not wrong. Critical thinking skills need to be developed, or at the very least their necessity needs to be understood, and both options seem in ever shorter supply (though I suspect it just becomes more obvious on a large scale, rather than becoming more widespread)
Oh, almost certainly, at least for a great many of them. It's like the individuals who loudly proclaim they'll participate in the boycott, despite that they were never going to buy the product regardless (and sometimes they make no effort to hide it, saying that they've never liked Platinum or that they wouldn't be caught dead possessing a Nintendo product). Their plans haven't changed; this just happened to be an opportunity to broadcast them as some claim of morality.
I'm circling back around to this because there seems to be a conflating of ideas popping up around the subject. Beyond the obvious answer of there likely being different people involved in discussion, a key point is the disparity between making an argument about something else with this information and forming an opinion of someone with it.
For instance, suggesting that someone's story can't be entirely believed because they follow some unrelated people on whatever social, or because they referred to a passage from the Bible, really isn't a compelling argument -- and I question even considering it an argument. It's better to consider actual evidence -- of which time has provided in differing qualities.
That's different from seeing details about a person and having that color your opinion of them. Assimilating information as such is how we form these opinions, after all. While I would caution basing a strong opinion of someone entirely on their Follows and similar such -- I, at least, know people who will follow individuals with ideologies diametrically opposed to their own, or theoretically adjacent yet still wildly divergent, if only to keep informed on what these sorts of people are saying and believing -- I certainly can't tell you to just not develop an opinion. This is more likely to be accepted; it's just not particularly connected to the discussion.
I hope that helped explain some things.
I don't know that there's any reason you'd specifically be a subject of the post, and I certainly wouldn't suggest an opinion that his Twitter is toxic would itself contribute to the issues. I personally think the bar for handling his Twitter presence better isn't high.
Now, this particular instance didn't require people to have a developed opinion on Kamiya, nor to be invested in him personally. It was reactive.
The whole post was regarding the discourse in general, here, elsewhere, and everywhere beyond. It has all largely swirled together, but, as I recall, Fami has been remarkably tame and reasonable in comparison to elsewhere.
This might have occurred at just the right time to have some amount of impact on that, but it does seem to me that it has various factors which might negate that -- particularly the overall framing, which sets this issue itself more in the background. However, given the various industry professionals who have weighed in, some impact might yet be felt.
It's certainly not wrong. Critical thinking skills need to be developed, or at the very least their necessity needs to be understood, and both options seem in ever shorter supply (though I suspect it just becomes more obvious on a large scale, rather than becoming more widespread)
From what I've seen, yes, this has definitely been one of the more reasonable places for discourse surrounding the subject.I've seen more reasonable discourse here than on the bird app, so I feel more comfortable sharing my thoughts here than other places
Last edited:
Supreme Overlord
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
- Pronouns
- he/him
Just consider all the alternate Bayonettas that can be added to Smash now.
I do find it likely whatever hardware comes next will be backwards compatible.
Now, I've mentioned it before, but I could see Platinum throwing in a Lappy costume as Nintendo-related content; it's not particularly likely on its own, nor even with Astral Chain being developed by Platinum, but it would be a humorous nod to both Platinum's history and their relationship with Nintendo.
More likely, though perhaps still not particularly so, would be a costume to masquerade as the Astral Chain protagonist; alas, it seems still more unlikely demons would be then replaced by Legions.
For Hideki Kamiya himself, they could nod toward the underrated Wonderful 101. Wonder Pink seems Bayonetta's style.
Once they do, I fully expect the replies to be filled with reactions to everything that's gone on.
I can't wait to play this guys. I buy these games hoping that one day we get a more powerful system and hope it's backwards compatible. If my dream comes through will play the hell out of astral chain again. I already clocked 400+ hours in it.
I do find it likely whatever hardware comes next will be backwards compatible.
Now, I've mentioned it before, but I could see Platinum throwing in a Lappy costume as Nintendo-related content; it's not particularly likely on its own, nor even with Astral Chain being developed by Platinum, but it would be a humorous nod to both Platinum's history and their relationship with Nintendo.
More likely, though perhaps still not particularly so, would be a costume to masquerade as the Astral Chain protagonist; alas, it seems still more unlikely demons would be then replaced by Legions.
For Hideki Kamiya himself, they could nod toward the underrated Wonderful 101. Wonder Pink seems Bayonetta's style.
There's a lot going on. It's wild, as expected. Possibly more than expected.
There's been a thought that marketing would ramp up this week, and I'm pretty sure Phendrift was looking for that and is hoping the whole debacle hasn't prompted Nintendo to just ... not do that.
Once they do, I fully expect the replies to be filled with reactions to everything that's gone on.
Mr Doggo
Anti oof
Time after time people get told to wait for more info, to not accuse people because they feel like so, basic decency. But those people never learn anything from that qnd wont be learning anything from what Helena did.
One good thing, bayo 3 should sell 3 millions now for sure.
One good thing, bayo 3 should sell 3 millions now for sure.
MSnap
Kremling
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Not for me when I’m trying to rush a replay of the first two, having only started yesterday
DunningSmith
Boo
Yeah, I feel like I should replay some missions in 2 to get off all the rust.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I hope this actually plays a fair bit during the game. I felt like Bayonetta 2 underused both its main them and Moon River.
- Status
