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Pre-Release Bayonetta 3 — Pre-release Discussion Thread

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What was in the deleted Tweets?

Very tempted to not buy at launch and wait to buy a secondhand copy...
 
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ILikeFeet said:
JP Kellams (ex-platinum) was being harassed because he felt there was more to the story. He was very high on the totem pole to know when he was at Platinum
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Ah I did see him tweeting about deleting some tweets and some were definitely calling him a coward for deleting them.

Wish I saw them, oh well.
 
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I honestly don’t think Nintendo is going after Hellena for breaking NDA.

That’ll be the worst move they can make unless Hellena is doing something really bad she ain’t telling (which i doubt 100%).

The only possibilities I see is. They ignore everything and get through Bayo’s launch and start promoting Pokémon a game without VA lol. Or they apologize and somehow make an apology that gets positive feedback. Or they’re apology sucks and they continue to take heat.

They probably for sure have to have told Platinum to shut up.

Frankly. I think they’re gonna ride this one out and let Platinum make a statement when they okay it. I’ve been trying to look up who handles Voice acting for projects like these. Publisher or dev, and it’s really tricky. So I can’t say who’s directly responsible. I wonder if Hellena reached out to Nintendo directly. She did once mention Reggie when the re-reveal dropped and speculation rise about her voice being different and possible not her
 
At the latest, when this game leaks next weekend (like many Nintendo published Switch game a week before release) and the gameplay looks even better, most will forget about this.

I think we may get one more thing this week on this and then after that it will fall into obscurity.
 
DecoReturns said:
I honestly don’t think Nintendo is going after Hellena for breaking NDA.

That’ll be the worst move they can make unless Hellena is doing something really bad she ain’t telling (which i doubt 100%).

The only possibilities I see is. They ignore everything and get through Bayo’s launch and start promoting Pokémon a game without VA lol. Or they apologize and somehow make an apology that gets positive feedback. Or they’re apology sucks and they continue to take heat.

They probably for sure have to have told Platinum to shut up.

Frankly. I think they’re gonna ride this one out and let Platinum make a statement when they okay it. I’ve been trying to look up who handles Voice acting for projects like these. Publisher or dev, and it’s really tricky. So I can’t say who’s directly responsible. I wonder if Hellena reached out to Nintendo directly. She did once mention Reggie when the re-reveal dropped and speculation rise about her voice being different and possible not her
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Any who thought they were gonna make a statement is kidding themselves. They’ll market the game like usual & move onto the next without a peep. If PG wants to say something then they will. Considering Hellena didn’t even mention Nintendo in her story; instead reaching out to Kamiya probably tells me she didn’t.

Suffice to say her career is over in VA. This may have knock on effects on other jobs she applies for as well.
 
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I'm super pumped for the game. She may have been underpaid, but the way she went about this was pretty immature. It's also very, very obviously not the full story, given the much more expensive Hale got the role.

There are more people than just her that are a part of this game, and I I sympathize, but I also am not dumping several hundred folks' work for one person.
 
MeatheadSamus said:
I'm super pumped for the game. She may have been underpaid, but the way she went about this was pretty immature. It's also very, very obviously not the full story, given the much more expensive Hale got the role.

There are more people than just her that are a part of this game, and I I sympathize, but I also am not dumping several hundred folks' work for one person.
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This summarizes my perspective perfectly. I’ve also seen many people say something along the lines of “If Bayonetta herself tells you to boycott Bayonetta 3, you boycott Bayonetta 3.” And I think that is honestly disrespectful to the voices of Bayonetta in other regions. Overall, more people worked on this game than just VA so I think calling for a boycott spits in the face of everyone else. 🤷🏻
 
Regarding Hellena Taylor news
  • Index
    • Staff Communication
    Going forward, this will likely be the only Bayonetta 3 thread open before the game launches. The Hellena Taylor news has already been discussed in the news thread and until there is any update to the story, there is little benefit to continuing the discussion.

    Any posts going forward that are directly about Hellena Taylor or the story need to be constructive and not dismissive. Also, you can post that you plan on purchasing the game, but mocking the boycott is not appropriate. Also, shaming people who will choose to boycott the game is also not fair. Posts that ignore these guidelines will be moderated. - Irene, Josh5890, PixelKnight
     
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  • Index
    • I’m so full of appreciation for Hellena and the work she put into Bayo, and am fully in support of her sharing the story. Regardless of the stuff we don’t know, it sounds like a shitty situation for her regardless and likely shouldn’t have happened. Bayo’s voice is burned into my brain, it’s brilliant and truly makes the character come to life. Hale seems to do a good job channeling it, but it still won’t be completely the same without Taylor.

    However, I also think this game looks fucking phenomenal and really want to see it do well and be recieved positively. There are so many other artists who make Bayo what is is - such a unique IP in the gaming industry. From Mari Shimazaki - the character designer who’s given Bayo an unmatched sense of fashion since the first game - to Yusuke Miyata, who went from being a game designer at PG and massive Bayo fan to finding himself in the directors seat for 3. I feel for them too with all that’s happened in the past day likely overshadowing a project they spent 5 years on and have been excited to put out.

    It sucks that those two viewpoints are seemingly supposed to be at odds with eachother - wanting the woman who truly brought Bayo to life to find justice, but also wanting a healthy and promising future for the IP overall.
     
    DecoReturns said:
    I honestly don’t think Nintendo is going after Hellena for breaking NDA.

    That’ll be the worst move they can make unless Hellena is doing something really bad she ain’t telling (which i doubt 100%).
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    I think they would only have to "make an example" if she really did casually leak the existence of another game (a Jeanne spin-off...?) during her rant.

    Like, if you wanna make the chopper sing, and effectively cut ties with former business contacts while doing so, that's one thing. But in this age of leakers divulging future products and getting spiked once they've been made, I dunno if that was a good look for her anymore than she making Hale out to be a scab.

    Phendrift said:
    It sucks that those two viewpoints are seemingly supposed to be at odds with eachother.
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    I don't think they have to be. I can be sympathetic to how vocal artists are often mistreated or forced into predicaments that are completely unfair, but also want to support a product that's the collaborative effort of hundreds of artists, programmers and more. The "human element" swings both ways, after all. It's just important to keep them both in mind.

    To respect at least half of what Taylor wished, I'll match my Masquerade price to a worthy cause.
     
    A lot of people's first reaction to the news was to shout "unionize!" but turns out this is a situation where both actors are in unions, the same one it seems. This is a situation where I would think it would have been brought up with the union back when the offer was first made. The union could have put out a statement or a
    do not work" call for their members to not work on the project or companies involves but instead, someone from the same union got the role instead. Definitely a weird situation. I'm not sure if there is anything the union can actually do now. Based on my very brief reading of their guidelines, it doesn't seem like the minimum union rates were ignored and since Hellena broke NDA and directly dismissed the work of another (more prominent) union member, it does make things more uncomfortable.
     
    The sad reality is: ethical consumption is not possible in the modern world. I still refuse to buy Nestle products because they are on a next level of badness, but in the end, regardless which product I consume, there will allways exploitation of some kind somewhere in the chain. If somebody really want's to boycott a game with exploitation of the workers, they would have to boycott every videogame (with exception of some Indies I guess). It's the sad reality. But of course we should not IGNORE the issues and make a blind eye on them. If somebody want's to boycott the game because of this, this is understandable and fine.
     
    Hauke_von_Arding said:
    The sad reality is: ethical consumption is not possible in the modern world. I still refuse to buy Nestle products because they are on a next level of badness, but in the end, regardless which product I consume, there will allways exploitation of some kind somewhere in the chain. If somebody really want's to boycott a game with exploitation of the workers, they would have to boycott every videogame (with exception of some Indies I guess). It's the sad reality. But of course we should not IGNORE the issues and make a blind eye on them. If somebody want's to boycott the game because of this, this is understandable and fine.
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    In addition to this, I don't think it's okay to shame anyone for refusing to boycott a product. I've always hated that mentality, whether it's Bayonetta 3 or Call of Duty or Warner Bros or Harry Potter. The "fuck _____ and fuck you if you support it" mindset is the dumbest thing in the world. If you want to boycott something that's completely understandable and reasonable, and most of the time the best choice. Just respect others rights to make that choice.
     
    rrost said:
    Sad to see kamiya go, hope he comes back keeps on blocking. Online harassment is something else.
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    I honestly don’t think blocking accounts would ever work. I suspect the absolute volume of hate he is getting is impossible to block your way out of.

    I feel really bad for him tbh. The situation is a shitshow but I doubt Kamiya was over at PG allocating the budget and deciding to insult Hellena with her offer, hell I doubt the blame lies on any single person.

    Anyway, to conform to this thread’s rules:
    I think the game looks fun and I will probably get it if it runs at a stable framerate.
     
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    TreIII said:
    To respect at least half of what Taylor wished, I'll match my Masquerade price to a worthy cause.
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    After giving this some thought, this is what I'll do.

    This whole situation stinks, but I'd still like to support the rest of the team.
     
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    Mori Medinayo said:
    Who is not buying the game because of this, they are definitely stupid or something.
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    It is always a personal decision. You can buy or not buy this game for any reason you want. This scandal is too small to affect sales or the brand in any meaningful way anyway. But I still think it is good that she got some awareness and that people are talking about.
     
    It’s purely up to that person for whatever reason they so choose, so how about not calling ‘em stupid for it.

    It’s a video game.
     
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    I became a biiig fan of Bayonetta after playing 1 and 2 a few weeks ago.


    Needless to say, this was a weird time to become invested in the franchise 😂

    I'm conflicted on various things but I have great sympathy for underpaid voice actors. I also support people voting with their wallets. I feel less good about saying others are committing a moral failure for supporting the game, when this situation doesn't feel nearly as cut and dry to me as other boycott calls have.

    I'm also trying to be careful not to let my excitement for the game cloud my logic, since we're talking about a real issue with the industry. It's honestly just such a huge shame on all sides, especially given what a great job Taylor did in 1 and 2.

    I'm glad to see a sentiment here of, don't belittle Taylor and also don't shame people who want to buy the game. Life is complicated! I understand why Taylor wants people to support VAs by not purchasing the game, though I found her framing a bit unfortunate (ie you can buy it and that's fine, but if you care about people suffering please consider a boycott). I dunno, does that mean it actually isn't fine to buy the game in her eyes? Just feels like that phrasing got a lot more people amped up about this, both for and against her side.

    Btw, sorry if I missed something that we shouldn't continue the discussion in here. I understand why the other thread was closed, though I still wanted to talk about it too. Happy to edit or delete this if needed.

    In any case, it would be nice if we could find any closure on this before launch
     
    I've seen youtubers have run off with one side of the story, as have the entirety of Twitter. I wish people would just wait to see what is going on. I feel so bad for all of the people who worked like mad on the game just to see this happen. I'm excited for it and I hope it is successful. I also hope that Ms. Taylor does not get harassed and gets work moving forward. We can wish for both.
     
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    It's only behind god of war and pokemon in terms of games that haven't come out yet
     
    I want to hear Kamiya's side of the story. I just hope he can share it without throwing gasoline on the fire as he foolishly likes to do
     
    Hey Everyone,

    A disclaimer: I know if you look at my account you'll see I haven't been active here for about a year, and even before that wasn't terribly active. Kinda fell off posting on message boards in general. I know that will instantly make some people dismissive of anything I have to say, but I just want to say upfront that I'm not a troll, alt account, or looking for a ban. I simply want to add my two cents because it seems a lot of online discourse is focused around this right now.

    All that said, I'm a big Bayonetta/Kamiya fan in general, and obviously with the Hellena Taylor news breaking everywhere, I came here to discuss it... Given the fact that topic is locked, it looks like I have to do so here. Before I do, I want to say I have read the staff post and hope this does in fact come across as constructive/not dismissive.

    I'm not here to discourage or encourage any boycotts or lack thereof. Whatever you choose to do in terms of buying or otherwise supporting the game is up to you as an individual entirely.

    However, in the general discourse around this topic I've noticed a lot of people are operating entirely on assumptions extrapolated from being told one side of a story (Hellena Taylor), when it has at least one other (Kamiya/Platinum), and potentially a couple others (Nintendo/Sega).

    The sad truth is we'll probably never completely know the truth, but there are in fact some hard facts we have been given, straight from Hellena Taylor herself, and the SAG-AFTRA mandates. There's a lot of assumptions and extrapolations from people have been doing from these facts, which I feel is obfuscating what we actually know.

    These are all the actual, indisputable, facts:
    • Taylor worked 4 sessions of 4 hours each as the lead character Bayonetta in the original Bayonetta game back in 2008. These 4 sessions totaling 16 hours of work would equal about $4000 following the current SAG-AFTRA scale in 2022. (The total would be lower than $4000 back in 2008).
    • SAG-AFTRA mandates these recording sessions are done in 4 hour blocks. Ie, even if you do a handful of lines of dialogue, they have you for the 4 hour session/you get compensated for that 4 hour session.
    • Taylor was given an offer somewhere below $4000 initially to work on Bayonetta 3 in some capacity.
    • After writing a note to Kamiya, the offer was raised to $4000 to work on Bayonetta 3 in some capacity. This offer was deemed too low by Taylor to accept.
    • Bayonetta 3 is a union project, and must adhere to the SAF-AFTRA scale as a minimum.
    • Therefore, because the initial rate offered was lower than $4000, Taylor could only have been offered less total work than she did on Bayonetta 1... At maximum 3 sessions of four hours, or 12 hours total. At minimum 1 session of 4 hours. Potentially, 2 sessions (or 8 hours).
    • We do not know if she was offered a session of 4, 8, or 12 hours. But because of the other information given, it must have been one of these.
    • With all of this information, we can factually conclude Taylor was not given a scale offer, but something above the minimum. How far above depends on if the offered work was for 4, 8, or 12 hours; and not something we currently know.
    That's literally all we know. Everything else is assumption and speculation; Whether Taylor was offered to play the lead, a supporting character, or a cameo is assumption and speculation. Whether Hale was offered (and is ultimately playing) the same role(s) as Taylor is assumption and speculation. Whether Hale was offered the same compensation and/or greater compensation than Taylor is assumption and speculation. I think argument along these lines rather than the facts is being disingenuous.

    Apart from all that, I think voice actors should in a general sense be paid more than they are. The SAG-AFTRA scale should be higher than it is. And voice actors should also get royalties. Hopefully the union wins that fight in the next round of negotiations.

    I also think all members of the video game industry should unionize, and key staff on all games should get royalties too. Sadly, I'm not sure any of that is likely to happen. But if nothing else, and even if it wasn't Taylor's intention, at least this might create a little groundswell to get others to pay attention to the issue of pay in the gaming industry.

    For a final personal note, I will say there's clearly more to the story here whether we get it or not. But, based on the information we do have, it does not appear there is actually a scandal here. Sadly just industry norms.

    Thanks for reading this long post, for those that did, and I hope this helped clarify things for people in some way.
     
    I'm a bit confused about something. I saw in the locked thread that Hellena was only offered $4k because she was doing a "cameo" and only got like 16 lines or something?
    But isn't Bayonetta the main character so why would she only get 15 lines? Then I've been seeing stuff of different Bayonetta's in the game? Is the Bayo that's the leading lady in Bayo3 not the same as the ones in B1 and 2?
     
    Bobdapeach said:
    I'm a bit confused about something. I saw in the locked thread that Hellena was only offered $4k because she was doing a "cameo" and only got like 16 lines or something?
    But isn't Bayonetta the main character so why would she only get 15 lines? Then I've been seeing stuff of different Bayonetta's in the game? Is the Bayo that's the leading lady in Bayo3 not the same as the ones in B1 and 2?
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    The Bayonetta that seems to be the main player character in this game does appear to be younger/different than the Bayonetta we played in the first two games. For the other questions, see my post above.
     
    I don't condone Kamiya or anyone else being harassed.

    I think Kamiya's response to the situation was rude and dismissive at best. He called the woman a liar without elaborating on what she's lying about and without addressing anything she said.

    Kamiya's past history on twitter is not cute or okay, it's toxic. It's not just blocking people, he name called and antagonized hundreds of fans who tried to interact with him for various reasons, one of them being they were speaking English which is xenophobic.
     
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