Pre-Release Bayonetta 3 — Pre-release Discussion Thread

[Buried In Time]

According to the SAG-AFTRA Interactive Media Wage Table:

From 11/10/19 to 11/7/20 a Day Performer (up to 3 voices / 4-hour day) minimum was $902. If she had a similar schedule to the previous two games that would mean four recording days of four hours totaling $3,608. $392 less than $4,000.

From 11/8/20 to 11/13/21 a Day Performer (up to 3 voices / 4-hour day) minimum was $929. If she had a similar schedule to the previous two games that would mean four recording days of four hours totaling $3,716. $284 less than $4,000.

The simplest answer that's consistent with Hellena Taylor's account is not that she was offered a generous sum for a reduced role, but that she was offered the whole game for the union minimum, that was then bumped up to a second and final offer of $4,000 after she wrote to Hideki Kamiya.

 

[Rareware]

So did I get this right? This is an union project, both Taylor and Hale are part of the same union and Taylor was offered the standard union rate (whether it was the minimum rate or not cannot be said since Taylor didn't disclose the volume of lines she had to voice)?

This is the minimum rate that must paid to any Off-Camera Performer under Interactive Entertainment Media per SAG-AFTRA:

UP TO 3 VOICES/ 4-HOUR DAY
11/10/19-11/7/20: $902
11/08/20-11/13/21: $929
11/14/21-11/07/22: $956.75

1 VOICE/ 1 HOUR
11/10/19-11/7/20: $451
11/08/20-11/13/21: $464.50
11/14/21-11/07/22: $478.50

6-10 VOICES/ 6 HOUR DAY
11/10/19-11/7/20: $1804.25
11/08/20-11/13/21: $1858.50
11/14/21-11/07/22: $1914.25

They cannot pay her less than that, but anything more is based on whatever negotiations are made between her and her employer(s). Can’t really determine how much $4000 plays into this without more knowledge of how many sessions, how many characters she was voicing, etc. But you can know for fact that it wasn’t less than what she was required to be paid per the Union.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

Oh, I think I understand what you mean. Correct me if I'm wrong though please! You mean Taylor doing this could reflect poorly on the union, because she is part of the union?

I can see the argument, but I honestly don't think anything about this situation is going to discourage Platinum or Nintendo from doing union projects/hiring union actors in the future. I also think, for good or for ill, it is clear Taylor is only speaking for herself and this specific situation in her twitter videos. She very specifically doesn't have a call to action for broader wage or royalty reform/any other union issue. She isn't talking about that in her videos, just her specific case/her role in this game.

Yeah, that's basically my point. Given other recent news about them and unions, I can absolutely see people in there trying to push that narrative. I do hope you're wrong on that.

 

[DunningSmith]

SNIP

SNIP

Okay, thanks. My questions here are:

1. Why is half of Twitter shouting "UNIONIZE!!!" when said actress is part of an union + was offered the (minimum?) union rate (assuming that her work load was similary to the first game)?

2. Why are people mad at Kamiya/Platinum and not at the union for prearranging such meager rates?

Not that I'm trying to excuse Platinum here, Taylor's performance as Bayonetta was one of the big defining traits of said character, so Platinum shouldn't have gone with the lowest possible amount in accordance with her union. But at the same time, Taylor should've approached this situation differently. Calling for a boycott while shitting on Hale was not the way to go. This whole situation is just a bummer.

 

[rrost]

Seems like bayonetta is rising through the best sellers list. I have a good feeling about this. Kamiya will have the last laugh after going through so much harassment.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

Okay, thanks. My questions here are:

1. Why is half of Twitter shouting "UNIONIZE!!!" when said actress is part of an union + was offered the (minimum?) union rate (assuming that her work load was similary to the first game)?

2. Why are people mad at Kamiya/Platinum and not at the union for prearranging such meager rates?

Because people on Twitter just want reasons to be mad, even if they're not grounded in reality or reasonable.

 

[Hauke_von_Arding]

[/QUOTE]

Okay, thanks. My questions here are:

1. Why is half of Twitter shouting "UNIONIZE!!!" when said actress is part of an union + was offered the (minimum?) union rate (assuming that her work load was similary to the first game)?

2. Why are people mad at Kamiya/Platinum and not at the union for prearranging such meager rates?

Not that I'm trying to excuse Platinum here, Taylor's performance as Bayonetta was one of the big defining traits of said character, so Platinum shouldn't have gone with the lowest possible amount in accordance with her union. But at the same time, Taylor should've approached this situation differently. Calling for a boycott while shitting on Hale was not the way to go. This whole situation is just a bummer.

A union can't just rise the rates as much as they like. They have to fight for it and get the publishers/developers to accept they rates. If they rise the minimum rate to idk 5000 Dollar for 4 hours, nobody would take them serious anymore and nobody would use union actors.

 

[Vookatos]

Okay, thanks. My questions here are:

1. Why is half of Twitter shouting "UNIONIZE!!!" when said actress is part of an union + was offered the (minimum?) union rate (assuming that her work load was similary to the first game)?

2. Why are people mad at Kamiya/Platinum and not at the union for prearranging such meager rates?

Not that I'm trying to excuse Platinum here, Taylor's performance as Bayonetta was one of the big defining traits of said character, so Platinum shouldn't have gone with the lowest possible amount in accordance with her union. But at the same time, Taylor should've approached this situation differently. Calling for a boycott while shitting on Hale was not the way to go. This whole situation is just a bummer.

Why wouldn't people be mad at the company and specifically the person with whom she negotiated the better price? VA unions aren't the best, but possibly aren't to blame as people who directly pay you nothing

 

[ILikeFeet]

Okay, thanks. My questions here are:

1. Why is half of Twitter shouting "UNIONIZE!!!" when said actress is part of an union + was offered the (minimum?) union rate (assuming that her work load was similary to the first game)?

2. Why are people mad at Kamiya/Platinum and not at the union for prearranging such meager rates?

Not that I'm trying to excuse Platinum here, Taylor's performance as Bayonetta was one of the big defining traits of said character, so Platinum shouldn't have gone with the lowest possible amount in accordance with her union. But at the same time, Taylor should've approached this situation differently. Calling for a boycott while shitting on Hale was not the way to go. This whole situation is just a bummer.

1. People on the internet not looking at the facts before screaming their heads off? NO! They wouldn't do that!

2. Gamer racism

 

[Kitty Paws]

Man, trying to figure out where I stand on the voice acting issue that’s been going is one of the hardest ethical choice I have had to make in a while.

I feel Hellena Taylor’s heartfelt plea, it must be incredibly frustrating to have had a major hand in creating a beloved and recognizable video game character (and I would argue Bayonetta’s voice is a more intricate part of her image that most characters in gaming), only to have that taken away from you when you had to refuse an offer that barely covers your living expenses. That may be the industry standard for voice actors, but then the standard is godawful. Not to mention, the 4k was apparently their last offer, after she appealed directly to Kamiya, so the original offer must have been worse.

On the other hand, she did not need to drag Jennifer Hale into this, making her a potential target for harassment by going after her in one of her original videos.

A potential boycott could help send a message. But do all the developers who worked hard on this game and have nothing to do with any of this deserve to have something they worked on for years boycotted for an problem that does not concern them? But then, if they have already been paid, isn’t it Platinum and Nintendo, the ones at the heart of the issue, that are the most negatively affected by this? And yet, I have seen enough gamer boycotts in my lifetime to know that they rarely, if ever, work.

Hideki Kamiya is an asshole on Twitter. But the reason he’s an asshole is that he was sent some truly horrible racist stuff. As rude as his response might have seemed, he is not a fluent English speaker, and may be bound by Platinum’s rules and NDA which he isn’t as willing to break as Hellena. So we may not be getting the whole story. Nevertheless, it was wrong of him and his team to lie and say that the reason the original voice actress was not coming back was because of conflicting schedules when it wasn’t the case.

It’s all shades of grey, and it all makes me sad.

 

[TreIII]

Her hairstyle is the same as child Cereza in Bayo1.

Spoiler

The plot of the game seems to be that OG Bayonetta dies and Viola and/or the new Bayo travel through the multiverse and find other Bayos. Bayonetta in the multiverse of madness, more or less.

Ahh thank you, that makes sense. Actually looking at the original reveal trailer back at TGA 2016 or whenever, seems this concept was already in play with having Bayo die

Another things, the locked thread, shared a tweet saying that some journalsits were saying she only had a 15 line camep appearance? I just went back to try find that but the tweet has been deleted, anyone got it saved, or an article that talks about it?

My leading theory right now is that she was offered the $4k to do the cameo for the original bayonetta before she dies, then JH was to do the new bayonetta in 3, but HT is making out that she was meant to be the leading Bayonetta through out the whole of B3, where this may not be the case?
I'm interested to see how this unfolds, and am waiting to see if PG/N will release a statement.

There's one caveat that I think should be added.

Spoiler: Lore Talk

The Bayonetta that we see perish in both the 2017 Teaser, as well as recent overview trailers from last week, are NOT the OG Bayonetta that we've played in the first two games. She may heavily borrow from the original game's design, but few differences have been pointed out that make it so she's just another multiverse variant:

• She has no mole
• Her guns are named Whittingham Fair, instead of Scarborough Fair
• She's been depicted bleeding, when lore established from the first game and "The Eyes of Bayonetta" source book says that Bayonetta has very strict self-rules about beauty not allowing herself to bleed, hence why her own "hit effects" have always been flowers flying off of her
• She seems to be the Bayonetta of Viola's universe, which in itself is just another reality, pinpointed but several other differences like how its Statute of Liberty is holding a flag instead of a torch

So, I personally don't think that particular theory about having Taylor just voice THAT particular Bayo variant holds much ground, and the whole idea that Taylor was going to be "demoted" to playing an extra/legacy Bayonetta, while Hale played the main and all the other variants was something that circled theory-crafting circles for about a year but had never felt like it had much basis in reality.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

It’s all shades of grey, and it all makes me sad.

This is absolutely off topic, but that's basically all of reality. Absolutely no situation is going to have a clear villain and hero, in 99% of the cases.

Life is extremely complex in The Current Time TM, everything is a mess. Circumstances way beyond our understanding that few people can explain affect all of the population, making everything feel like a continuous parade of uncertainty that drives everyone to try to find easy explanations to things they can't really begin to figure out themselves. It's basically why everything feels like a superpolarized "us vs them", right vs wrong, constant stream of yelling. Feeling unsafe drives people to try to find simple evils they can drive out, seeking the comfort of at least trying to keep what we can right.

And especially after COVID, this is pretty easy to see, with a significant part of the population absolutely convincing themselves a deadly disease must not exist because whatever life they thought they had is threatened.

The only sane way to cope with all of this is to embrace the uncertainty, to accept that we can never get simple answers to highly complex problems, and focus all of your decisions around that.

 

[correojon]

There's one caveat that I think should be added.

Spoiler: Lore Talk

The Bayonetta that we see perish in both the 2017 Teaser, as well as recent overview trailers from last week, are NOT the OG Bayonetta that we've played in the first two games. She may heavily borrow from the original game's design, but few differences have been pointed out that make it so she's just another multiverse variant:

• She has no mole
• Her guns are named Whittingham Fair, instead of Scarborough Fair
• She's been depicted bleeding, when lore established from the first game and "The Eyes of Bayonetta" source book says that Bayonetta has very strict self-rules about beauty not allowing herself to bleed, hence why her own "hit effects" have always been flowers flying off of her
• She seems to be the Bayonetta of Viola's universe, which in itself is just another reality, pinpointed but several other differences like how its Statute of Liberty is holding a flag instead of a torch

So, I personally don't think that particular theory about having Taylor just voice THAT particular Bayo variant holds much ground, and the whole idea that Taylor was going to be "demoted" to playing an extra/legacy Bayonetta, while Hale played the main and all the other variants was something that circled theory-crafting circles for about a year but had never felt like it had much basis in reality.

I think that

Spoiler

the Bayonetta that is killed is not OG Bayonetta, but the one from Viola's universe. Then, Viola comes into "Bayo-Cereza"'s universe and they start universe-jumping. And in one of those, they find OG Bayonetta, who is in the story for just 1 or 2 chapters, just enough so that we can get whatever magical mcguffin we're after. OG Bayonetta would be something like Rosa in Bayo2 and I think it would've been a very impactful moment if Hale had voiced all Bayos and Hellena just this one for the couple of chapters she's in.

 

[Buried In Time]

I think that

Spoiler

the Bayonetta that is killed is not OG Bayonetta, but the one from Viola's universe. Then, Viola comes into "Bayo-Cereza"'s universe and they start universe-jumping. And in one of those, they find OG Bayonetta, who is in the story for just 1 or 2 chapters, just enough so that we can get whatever magical mcguffin we're after. OG Bayonetta would be something like Rosa in Bayo2 and I think it would've been a very impactful moment if Hale had voiced all Bayos and Hellena just this one for the couple of chapters she's in.

IMO, it would have been more impactful if Hellena Taylor voiced all the variants.

 

[correojon]

IMO, it would have been more impactful if Hellena Taylor voiced all the variants.

Why? This is a clear example of "when everyone is special, no one is":

Spoiler

If every variant had Hellena's voice, then the moment when OG Bayonetta appears would be less special as it wouldn't have that particular aspect to differentiate it from the rest, compared as having all variants with Hale's voice.

It would've stood out more.

 

[Buried In Time]

I wouldn't have been against it, but I'm not convinced that was ever in the cards. It was likely an either-or situation with Taylor or Hale doing it all. I think Hellena could have pulled off all that was required had she gotten the gig.

 

[Tye]

If Taylor was going to only voice a specific Bayonetta in the game and therefore have a much smaller role than the previous games, it’s important to note that she probably wouldn’t have had all the context about that either (and may still not have any idea, unless she’s been keeping up with the speculation about the game herself), since voice actors often aren’t given full (or any) plot details. So if that was the case, she could have been thinking this whole time that it was insulting to give her such a small amount of work for what she presumed would be the main character throughout the game, but that could all be a misunderstanding…

I hope we get more details eventually, ‘cause things just don’t add up and all we can really do right now is speculate about the unknown elements.

 

[ILikeFeet]

If Taylor was going to only voice a specific Bayonetta in the game and therefore have a much smaller role than the previous games, it’s important to note that she probably wouldn’t have had all the context about that either (and may still not have any idea, unless she’s been keeping up with the speculation about the game herself), since voice actors often aren’t given full (or any) plot details. So if that was the case, she could have been thinking this whole time that it was insulting to give her such a small amount of work for what she presumed would be the main character throughout the game, but that could all be a misunderstanding…

I hope we get more details eventually, ‘cause things just don’t add up and all we can really do right now is speculate about the unknown elements.

wasn't details about roles one of the things that the union negotiated for? don't know if they got that though

 

[Tye]

wasn't details about roles one of the things that the union negotiated for? don't know if they got that though

I’m not sure, I just know that to have generally been the case with many other roles, I believe including union actors, but I don’t have exact details or anything. But this can even happen in Hollywood productions, like how Charlie Day has said the actors aren’t being told anything about the Super Mario Bros. Movie aside from the lines they’re voicing, so I wouldn’t be surprised at all if that was also the case with Bayonetta 3 (and like I said, it’s pretty common for that to be the case with video games from what I’ve heard), and I haven’t seen many people bringing that up regarding this topic.

 

[Apopheniac]

The idea that Taylor was offered her sum for a bit part and she didn't understand that she was being given less work reeks of naïveté. There is no reason why Nintendo/Platinum couldn't communicate their expectations of her role to her. One of the reasons to give VAs NDAs, which Taylor admitted to having and breaking, is so they can be informed of relevant plot details in confidence when necessary.

Even if you believe that, it still means that they were looking to oust the running voice of the character, since the JP VA is reprising her role and both actresses appear to be voicing all of the various Bayonettas anyway, which doesn't indicate that this is the result of a unique creative direction. I don't believe that's necessarily an arbitrary or petty reason from Nintendo/Platinum, but given what we know, it comes across to me as infantalizing to suggest that a professional actor didn't understand the deal she was offered.

 

[bayonetta]

amazon France had a restock

 

[Marizza Pia Spiritto]

I don't condone Kamiya or anyone else being harassed.

I think Kamiya's response to the situation was rude and dismissive at best. He called the woman a liar without elaborating on what she's lying about and without addressing anything she said.

Kamiya's past history on twitter is not cute or okay, it's toxic. It's not just blocking people, he name called and antagonized hundreds of fans who tried to interact with him for various reasons, one of them being they were speaking English which is xenophobic.

He used to interact a lot with english tweets but I guess he was too harassed over it and gave up on it

Not saying he handled this new situation in a good way though

 

[MeatheadSamus]

Bayo 3 climbed from the 60s all the way to #9 on Amazon. No such thing as bad publicity apparently

 

[ILikeFeet]

Even if you believe that, it still means that they were looking to oust the running voice of the character, since the JP VA is reprising her role and both actresses appear to be voicing all of the various Bayonettas anyway, which doesn't indicate that this is the result of a unique creative direction. I don't believe that's necessarily an arbitrary or petty reason from Nintendo/Platinum, but given what we know, it comes across to me as infantalizing to suggest that a professional actor didn't understand the deal she was offered.

IMO, no voice actor is beholden to a role unless they had a hand in its creation. if Platinum just wanted someone different because reasons, there's not much we or Taylor can do about that.

Bayo 3 climbed from the 60s all the way to #9 on Amazon. No such thing as bad publicity apparently

marketing cycle might be starting now that the other major games are on the verge of releasing (P5R and M+R2)

 

[Fraa]

According to the SAG-AFTRA Interactive Media Wage Table:

From 11/10/19 to 11/7/20 a Day Performer (up to 3 voices / 4-hour day) minimum was $902. If she had a similar schedule to the previous two games that would mean four recording days of four hours totaling $3,608. $392 less than $4,000.

From 11/8/20 to 11/13/21 a Day Performer (up to 3 voices / 4-hour day) minimum was $929. If she had a similar schedule to the previous two games that would mean four recording days of four hours totaling $3,716. $284 less than $4,000.

The simplest answer that's consistent with Hellena Taylor's account is not that she was offered a generous sum for a reduced role, but that she was offered the whole game for the union minimum, that was then bumped up to a second and final offer of $4,000 after she wrote to Hideki Kamiya.

It's a possible answer, but it's not the only answer, or even the simplest answer. The "simplest"/probably most accurate answer is that she was offered the main Bayonetta role, but that it was still a smaller role than previous games due to there now being a secondary main/playable character in Viola. Ie, something down from 4 sessions (16 hours), to maybe just 3 sessions (12 hours). If that was the case the $4000 would still be a fair bit above the minimum... Which honestly is a lot more likely than it being barely above the minimum (which would be the case if the offer was for 4 sessions). As I said in my original post, it is also extremely possible she was offered just 1 or 2 sessions. I do not believe even Hale's work this time around required 4 sessions. But this is something we'll see exactly for ourselves in a little under two weeks (the proportion of Viola to Bayonetta, and by extension comparison of how much Bayonetta there is to past games).

Of course, again, this is all speculation.

 

[Christo750]

I've had a lot of time to think about this and I'm honestly pretty split on it.

I... don't think Taylor was incredibly lowballed with that $4k offer. Maybe with the initial offer, but Platinum's counter of $4k, considering William Salyer's tweet, it seems like it was standard, and based on the other figures that people have posted, plus the fact that she and Jennifer Hale are in the same union, I have no reason to assume otherwise.

I do feel for her because she WAS Bayonetta. That was her and her alone, for at least 5 years before there was even a Japanese dub. That should have given her a little more bargaining power regarding payment, and she should've gotten more. This seems like the extent of her qualm, and tbh, idk if it's anything worth boycotting a game for.

I don't like how secretive the industry typically is, but the fact of the matter is that she broke a pretty serious NDA, leaked the existence of other games, threw her colleagues under the mud, and told other people to follow HER and not buy the game she's ultimately not a huge component in the making of. Needlessly petty and it's a good way to sour your working relationships in the future. People keep saying they want Nintendo/Platinum to speak out on this. If anything, you're going to hear from her union first. I can't imagine they're happy.

To supplement the low up-front payment, I feel like there should be at least a .05% payment dished out in residuals. Like, if we take her numbers as gospel and the Bayonetta franchise has grossed $450 MILLION (there's no way this number is true), that would leave her with $225,000 in residuals for one voice roll. Should VAs get that for ~10 hours in the booth per game before tenured employees who spent 2-3 years on a game? Everyone should get something, and the landscape for VAs isn't great; not everyone is going to be a Tara Strong or a Troy Baker, getting role after role and staying busy, but the devs need a bigger lift across the board.

Anything else around it is entirely speculation that Platinum isn't going to comment on until after the game comes out if they even comment at all. Nintendo is funding development, not actually making the game, so they don't really have much say in who voices Bayo. That's a Platinum decision.

 

[Christo750]

Jennifer Hale comments.

 

[TreIII]

Jennifer Hale comments.

Honestly? I'm surprised she even said this much.

But respect, all the way. Those making her out to be some sort of scab are scum.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

Jennifer Hale comments.

This might actually be the most professional and classy take on the entire thing so far.

 

[ILikeFeet]

It doesn't answer anything while being subtly anti-boycott. It's the best response she could have made.

I think if Taylor had a case, she'd lawyer up. We'll see if she does

 

[shoptroll]

This might actually be the most professional and classy take on the entire thing so far.

Was just going to say this. She is a consummate professional and a class act.

I think if Taylor had a case, she'd lawyer up. We'll see if she does

I know I haven’t watched Taylor’s vids yet, and I entirely intend to, but going scorched earth like this was just such a bad idea rather than getting a lawyer for what really sounds like a contractual dispute more than anything. But lawyers are expensive and I don’t know Taylor’s current situation so maybe she didn’t think she had any other option?

The whole situation is weird and i don’t think anyone comes out of this without mud on their hands.

 

[Kingpin Rogers]

Seems like the more I learn from this thread and other places that 4000 dollar offer wasn't actually that unreasonable or that unlike what other voice actors would have gotten? If that's the case then I feel she definitely didn't handle it in the right way breaking NDA and asking for a boycott of the game. Framing it as a spotlight on how voice actors in general are underpaid seems like it would have been better rather than making it seem like she was being uniquely underpaid herself compared to others.

Also, not that I think the boycott will do anything but it's also a little annoying seeing people on Twitter talking about how they're going to pirate the game because of this, if it's not actually as bad as originally thought. Feels like the kind of thing where if more concrete info comes out very few will pay attention to it and instead just stick to the initial controversy.

 

[SunnyDays]

I know I haven’t Taylor’s vids yet, and I entirely intend to, but going scorched earth like this was just such a bad idea rather than getting a lawyer for what really sounds like a contractual dispute more than anything. But lawyers are expensive and I don’t know Taylor’s current situation so maybe she didn’t think she had any other option?

The whole situation is weird and i don’t think anyone comes out of this without mud on their hands.

It's not even really a contractual dispute, is it? Like, if we blindly accept her story with no context:
She was offered a value below her value and contribution to the IP
She was not obligated to take the contract
She denied the contract
All contractual obligations, unless I'm unaware of some claims, were successfully completed by both parties for existing contracts.

The only contractual dispute I can see really is her admitted violation of her NDA. Unless I'm missing something? /gen

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

Also, not that I think the boycott will do anything but it's also a little annoying seeing people on Twitter talking about how they're going to pirate the game because of this, if it's not actually as bad as originally thought. Feels like the kind of thing where if more concrete info comes out very few will pay attention to it and instead just stick to the initial controversy.

Betting five bucks on those people already having decided on pirating the game and they're just using this as some flimsy moral justification to do so.

 

[Apopheniac]

It's not even really a contractual dispute, is it? Like, if we blindly accept her story with no context:
She was offered a value below her value and contribution to the IP
She was not obligated to take the contract
She denied the contract
All contractual obligations, unless I'm unaware of some claims, were successfully completed by both parties for existing contracts.

The only contractual dispute I can see really is her admitted violation of her NDA. Unless I'm missing something? /gen

The thrust of her complaint is that giving her a terrible offer after her previous work with the series is a massive Dick Move. Nintendo/Platinum have done nothing wrong in any legal or contractual sense, but that does not mean they didn't make a Dick Move.

 

[Trevelyan]

It's not even really a contractual dispute, is it? Like, if we blindly accept her story with no context:
She was offered a value below her value and contribution to the IP
She was not obligated to take the contract
She denied the contract
All contractual obligations, unless I'm unaware of some claims, were successfully completed by both parties for existing contracts.

The only contractual dispute I can see really is her admitted violation of her NDA. Unless I'm missing something? /gen

This is where I’m confused, as well. I was away all weekend camping and catching up, but it seems like someone was made a job offer. That person then thought the offer was below the value they placed on themselves and declined. Company then went elsewhere. And the internet is blowing up over this?

 

[SunnyDays]

The thrust of her complaint is that giving her a terrible offer after her previous work with the series is a massive Dick Move. Nintendo/Platinum have done nothing wrong in any legal or contractual sense, but that does not mean they didn't make a Dick Move.

Ya, sorry, I was just rebutting the point about contractual. I'm choosing to stay out of the morality question - I have my own thoughts on it and have no interest in arguing to change anyone's mind on that front.

 

[HockeyBird]

Seems like the more I learn from this thread and other places that 4000 dollar offer wasn't actually that unreasonable or that unlike what other voice actors would have gotten? If that's the case then I feel she definitely didn't handle it in the right way breaking NDA and asking for a boycott of the game. Framing it as a spotlight on how voice actors in general are underpaid seems like it would have been better rather than making it seem like she was being uniquely underpaid herself compared to others.

Also, not that I think the boycott will do anything but it's also a little annoying seeing people on Twitter talking about how they're going to pirate the game because of this, if it's not actually as bad as originally thought. Feels like the kind of thing where if more concrete info comes out very few will pay attention to it and instead just stick to the initial controversy.

At this point, it's still a little unclear what exactly the $4,000 offer was for. But generally, voice actors are paid at an hourly rate. They are not given giant lump sum contracts like big Hollywood starts. The typical voice actor only gets paid between $30,000 and $60,000 a year. That's with taking on multiple voice acting roles. Actors are paid per recording session usually. Assuming a union minimum wage was offered, that would roughly be around 19 hours of recording. That doesn't sound like a lot but recording sessions, even for major voice acting roles, can often only take a few days. Whether that's a fair system, I really am not a liberty to say since I don't know what it takes to be a voice actor. But I do think many people assumed that voice actors were paid lavishly and that a single role would pay for an entire years salary and that's simply not the case.

 

[Illucio]

Seems like the more I learn from this thread and other places that 4000 dollar offer wasn't actually that unreasonable or that unlike what other voice actors would have gotten? If that's the case then I feel she definitely didn't handle it in the right way breaking NDA and asking for a boycott of the game. Framing it as a spotlight on how voice actors in general are underpaid seems like it would have been better rather than making it seem like she was being uniquely underpaid herself compared to others.

Also, not that I think the boycott will do anything but it's also a little annoying seeing people on Twitter talking about how they're going to pirate the game because of this, if it's not actually as bad as originally thought. Feels like the kind of thing where if more concrete info comes out very few will pay attention to it and instead just stick to the initial controversy.

$4,000 is the bare union minimum and is still low.

Also people who who are in distressed or in a bad place don't make reasonable decisions. Or have the backing of a billion dollar industry help her write a better compelling argument over being undervalued. It's a reasonable spot to be in.

I'm sure there will be people to boycott the game, buy it used or do other things to show support.

But so far across various forums I've seen people:
1) Dismiss her claims outright
2) Search her Twitter history to see if there was a reason she was low-balled.
3) Provide fan theories on the games plot as to why she was low-balled.
4) Try to dismiss her because she asked to boycott the game because they like Bayonetta games.
5) Argue her pay is reasonable and she needs to work a day in the life of someone making minimum wage.
6) Keep thinking something is off with her and her statements because it doesn't make sense for Nintendo or Platinum to low ball her.
7) Defend Kamiya because that's how he always acts on Twitter (and not that behavior is shitty and racist to begin with).
8) Thinks Hellena has some weird alternative motive or isn't being genuine because X reasoning.
9) People verbally telling other users off for not living in the real world, that this isn't professional and people need to get a life.

And I could go on. Needless to say, there is far more conversations targeting Hellena to dismiss her claims or herself entirely with questionable guesses or answers being made up on the spot. Then the more obvious and well known, documented and on the point conversation that voice actors are treated like absolute shit in the video game industry. But no one wants to open that can of worms and rather just stick their nails telling an emotional women who is a little irrational because she is struggling financially and is risking her entire career because she was completely disrespected and lowballed by a industry that clearly could had afford her when you look at her replacement.

There is really little this conversation can go at this point without Platinum or Nintendo making a comment.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

$4,000 is the bare union minimum and is still low.

If she's being paid rates the union agreed on, that's not being lowballed, though. There's a case for her believing she should be paid more, there's a wider case for union rates being raised. But that's not what the entire thing is about.

 

[Seven]

$4,000 is the bare union minimum and is still low.

Also people who who are in distressed or in a bad place don't make reasonable decisions. Or have the backing of a billion dollar industry help her write a better compelling argument over being undervalued. It's a reasonable spot to be in.

Isn't that why there are unions in the first place? If she felt she was being undervalued for her work she should have brought it up to her union and let them hash it out with Platinum and Nintendo.

 

[Hauke_von_Arding]

$4,000 is the bare union minimum and is still low.

Only IF she did 16h records.We don't know even that.

 

[SunnyDays]

$4,000 is the bare union minimum and is still low.

If the union rate is $4,000 for 4 sessions, and that was the second, higher offer she received, then the first offer was for fewer than 4 sessions. If 3 sessions, she was being offered 33% more than the base rate.

 

[MegaXZero]

$4,000 is the bare union minimum and is still low.

We’ve had VAs speak out saying that sum is not low for the role, including one set of tweets all saying that were liked by Hale. Do VAs deserve more? Sure. Did Platinum cheap out in their offer compared to the industry itself? No.

 

[Hauke_von_Arding]

So uh... seems like some amateur Social Media Sleuths (f it tells a lot of you if you dig in somebodys social media to defend a company and find something to cancel a worker complaining about bad working habits) found out that Hellena Taylor is a potentially Blue Lifes Matter supporter and TERF? If this is true (let's see how it turns out, doesn't look too good for her it seems):
1. Fuck her. She lost any sympathy from me for her personal case (even if I wanted to wait for more informations)
2. Don't ignore the topic entirely. We should not start to ignore low working rates for VAs in the whole industry just because there are some bad apples in the industry. I hope (Anime/Gaming) VAs will have better working conditions and get higher rates. They deserve is. Don't make it a "Oh Taylor is TERF, let's ignore the whole topic" because there are a lot of VAs who are kind and good hearted people and no TERFs.
3. Digging into someones Twitter history to find a reason to disregard her cause is bad behaviour too. No reason to do this just to defend a company.

 

[SunnyDays]

So uh... seems like some amateur Social Media Sleuths (f it tells a lot of you if you dig in somebodys social media to defend a company and find something to cancel a worker complaining about bad working habits) found out that Hellena Taylor is a potentially Blue Lifes Matter supporter and TERF? If this is true (let's see how it turns out, doesn't look too good for her it seems):
1. Fuck her. She lost any sympathy from me for her personal case (even if I wanted to wait for more informations)
2. Don't ignore the topic entirely. We should not start to ignore low working rates for VAs in the whole industry just because there are some bad apples in the industry. I hope (Anime/Gaming) VAs will have better working conditions and get higher rates. They deserve is. Don't make it a "Oh Taylor is TERF, let's ignore the whole topic" because there are a lot of VAs who are kind and good hearted people and no TERFs.
3. Digging into someones Twitter history to find a reason to disregard her cause is bad behaviour too. No reason to do this just to defend a company.

I don't believe this is relevant to the current conversation in the slightest. It is a relevant conversation to her value as a VA from the perspective of a fan, but not to a wage-based dispute in the industry.

 

[Hauke_von_Arding]

I don't believe this is relevant to the current conversation in the slightest. It is a relevant conversation to her value as a VA from the perspective of a fan, but not to a wage-based dispute in the industry.

Exactly. That's what I wanted to say with my second point. We should still not ignore that VAs are underpaid (even if Platinum/NIntendo pays the union standard for their VAs). It's a industry wide problem.

 

[Apopheniac]

On the one hand, I don't believe Nintendo/Platinum/Sega/Kamiya gave her the cold shoulder because of her posts. They're not proactive about that, they don't really care

On the other hand, if Nintendo/Platinum/Sega/Kamiya wants to come out tomorrow and say "yeah we found her bad posts before you did, that's why we snubbed her, Trans Rights Are Human Rights," it'd be an absolute slam dunk for them PR-wise, and I'd be willing to give them a "good job Nintendo/Platinum/Sega/Kamiya"

 

[JR436]

On the other hand, if Nintendo/Platinum/Sega/Kamiya wants to come out tomorrow and say "yeah we found her bad posts before you did, that's why we snubbed her, Trans Rights Are Human Rights," it'd be an absolute slam dunk for them PR-wise, and I'd be willing to give them a "good job Nintendo/Platinum/Sega/Kamiya"

It'd also be a bare-faced lie since they didn't snub Taylor - they just potentially lowballed her.

If Taylor accepts the offer, then she'd be voicing Bayonetta, no questions asked.

 

[ILikeFeet]

it'd be an absolute slam dunk for them PR-wise,

on this internet? land of "get woke go broke"?