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StarTopic Nintendo First Party Software Development |ST| Nintendo Party Superstars

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bellydrum said:
go play a video game
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wait-what.gif
 
Raccoon said:
well I didn't know I had misunderstood you then. I thought you were suggesting that the gameplay needed to become modern and was asserting my opinion that modern gameplay is not synonymous with good

I'm baffled by the suggestion that I'm "tone policing" you or in any way controlling what you say. @Mr Doggo does say what I thought you meant and I both have no intention of stopping telling him he's wrong and no expectation that he'll censor himself for my benefit. I'd be disappointed if he did!

speaking more broadly about the whole topic, I tend to be sanctimonious and stubborn about it because I know it's a losing fight. if star fox comes back it will be dramatically transformed, and there's a good chance I won't like it. in the meantime I will continue to erroneously defend the valor of rail shooters and arcade-style gameplay
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Just from observation, I think that making posts saying things like "stop saying ____" does come across like telling people what to do or not to do.

When I talk about "modern" I'm referring to how things work nowadays compared to the 80s/90s when rail shooters were a bigger thing. Mario games introduced new elements (the Cappy mechanic, the Double Cherry, etc.) since the NES/SNES games. Zelda brought in a really robust physics engine with BOTW. Those are great gameplay innovations and it'd be fun to see what Nintendo could do with Star Fox (as long as they avoid controller gimmicks).

Modern could also refer to general audience tastes. The majority of millions that aren't on Famiboards not playing games (lol). A lot of popular games nowadays have big online elements. Star Fox Assault had a really fun multiplayer mode, and Command shockingly had online dogfighting. For some reason (time constraints probably) Star Fox 64 3D didn't have online play, which was a huge miss. Splatoon and Mario Kart show that Nintendo would do well with more multiplayer-centric titles. Does this mean we're getting a third person Star Fox Battle Royale? Probably not, but it shouldn't be an idea they throw in the garbage bin because it's not a 90s-style rail shooter.
 
bellydrum said:
go play a video game
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Now you did it. Now I am really offended.
Raccoon said:
well I didn't know I had misunderstood you then. I thought you were suggesting that the gameplay needed to become modern and was asserting my opinion that modern gameplay is not synonymous with good

I'm baffled by the suggestion that I'm "tone policing" you or in any way controlling what you say. @Mr Doggo does say what I thought you meant and I both have no intention of stopping telling him he's wrong and no expectation that he'll censor himself for my benefit. I'd be disappointed if he did!

speaking more broadly about the whole topic, I tend to be sanctimonious and stubborn about it because I know it's a losing fight. if star fox comes back it will be dramatically transformed, and there's a good chance I won't like it. in the meantime I will continue to erroneously defend the valor of rail shooters and arcade-style gameplay
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Like I said no worries. To explain my point of view further: I am just not a fan of telling someone he shouldn't use a certain adjective thats relevant to an technical, ever evolving industry because you yourself define it as "= bad and worse then what came before". Thats all. I don't even have a grudge against you.

I get that especially in todays climate where Nintendo likes to reboot their long running franchises one could think I meant certain gaming trends but I never suggested anything like this when I just said one paragraph later that they should focus on different Star Fox staples like planets, Arwing gameplay and so on.
 
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Dark Cloud said:
For real. I think it’s time to stop using Kid Icarus for a point of rail shooting only Star Fox to return when KI isn’t only that.

Sakurai showed evolution with KI. You have people calling it a GOAT Nintendo game.
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And ironically it was originally considered to be a Star Fox game. Though he had some kind of weird reasoning as to why he chose not to do it, ultimately I think he saw the interest in the Pit redesign in Brawl and thought of how he could broaden that to an IP revival. I think the Star Fox DNA is all over that game, which is why so many jokingly refer to it as the best Star Fox game.
 
Miraj said:
Just from observation, I think that making posts saying things like "stop saying ____" does come across like telling people what to do or not to do.
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well I suppose my mistake is saying it with absolutely zero expectation that people listen to me

if anything I would expect people to say it more

but you're right, it framed what I meant to be a rib at a mindset I disagree with as some sort of moral objection and for that I'm sorry @Pflaumenmus12
 
Miraj said:
And ironically it was originally considered to be a Star Fox game. Though he had some kind of weird reasoning as to why he chose not to do it, ultimately I think he saw the interest in the Pit redesign in Brawl and thought of how he could broaden that to an IP revival. I think the Star Fox DNA is all over that game, which is why so many jokingly refer to it as the best Star Fox game.
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He thought the character of Pit and his world was better suited for the type of gaming he was making.

www.siliconera.com

Sakurai Also Considered Making A Star Fox Game For 3DS

www.siliconera.com www.siliconera.com

“Yes, there actually was one other and that was Star Fox,” Sakurai revealed.

“But the problem with Star Fox was that — and you’ll see this when you see the trailer for Kid Icarus — is that the game design incorporates a lot of different views. For example, flying and shooting sideways or turning around and shooting behind and I felt that there were some restrictions with Star Fox in this regard. With Pit, there is a certain amount of flexibility that is allowed and makes a better fit for this gameplay.”
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Sakurai with understandable reasoning for going the Kid Icarus route. I do wonder what the conversations were like with Nintendo. If they told him he could expand on Star Fox or Sakurai just thought to himself SF is like this and wouldn’t work.
 
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Dinoman96 said:
He thought the character of Pit and his world was better suited for the type of gaming he was making.

www.siliconera.com

Sakurai Also Considered Making A Star Fox Game For 3DS

www.siliconera.com www.siliconera.com
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Yeah the different views thing is... a weird reasoning. Panzer Dragoon lets you switch to side views. Kid Icarus having on foot stuff isn't novel, since Star Fox has on foot stuff too. Shooting from the sides of the Arwing could've been resolved by adding side blasters or tracker shots. I find it an unusually weird thing to get hung up about, when he could've used any reasoning to make it work. Honestly I think this is just like Miyamoto saying he has no ideas for F-Zero. They should just be honest and say that they're more inspired creatively to make other things.
 
Miraj said:
Yeah the different views thing is... a weird reasoning. Panzer Dragoon lets you switch to side views. Kid Icarus having on foot stuff isn't novel, since Star Fox has on foot stuff too. Shooting from the sides of the Arwing could've been resolved by adding side blasters or tracker shots. I find it an unusually weird thing to get hung up about, when he could've used any reasoning to make it work. Honestly I think this is just like Miyamoto saying he has no ideas for F-Zero. They should just be honest and say that they're more inspired creatively to make other things.
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That’s what I was wondering though. Maybe Sakurai felt like Star Fox needed to be a specific way in his eyes. But maybe it’s just more he wanted to work on Pit. At the end of the day I guess Kid Icarus was like a blank slate. And Sakurai had the idea and gameplay he wanted for a game. He didn’t see SF working. Probably Nintendo brought up SF to him first.
 
Raccoon said:
I'm baffled by the suggestion that I'm "tone policing" you or in any way controlling what you say. @Mr Doggo does say what I thought you meant and I both have no intention of stopping telling him he's wrong and no expectation that he'll censor himself for my benefit. I'd be disappointed if he did!
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I do try to censor myself in relation to other people's tastes. Since people dont know me, they could think i am being serious and in a hypothetical case... trashing pikmin for real for example.


.
 
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Miraj said:
You must've missed the part where I said that Star Fox was heavily inspired by games like Starblade (seriously, the playthrough I linked could be mistaken for actual Star Fox levels). Nintendo put their own unique spin on it and that set it apart from other rail shooters of the time. Similarly, Splatoon was their own unique spin on the third person competitive multiplayer genre. Since nothing has reversed the trend of making rail shooters' decline in popularity, perhaps Nintendo could try putting a spin on more popular, recent trends. What form that takes, who knows.
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Huh? No, I didn’t miss it, it was in the post I quoted. I just cut it out because I don't see how it's relevant to the discussion. Nobody is saying they shouldn't take other games for inspiration and make new IPs like they did with Star Fox and Splatoon when they were created. (Some) people itt are opposed to the idea of taking a now established series (Star Fox) and turning it into something else.
 
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Dark Cloud said:
That’s what I was wondering though. Maybe Sakurai felt like Star Fox needed to be a specific way in his eyes. But maybe it’s just more he wanted to work on Pit. At the end of the day I guess Kid Icarus was like a blank slate. And Sakurai had the idea and gameplay he wanted for a game. He didn’t see SF working. Probably Nintendo brought up SF to him first.
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It's hard to say. He did a really clever job of making Star Fox and F-Zero characters work in Smash, outside of their vehicles. He added rocket booster heels to Samus (I still dislike that personally). He's really creative and does things that may not seem likely at first, but totally work in practice. I think given the opportunity between doing a new Star Fox or having carte blanc with Kid Icarus, he chose the latter.

Also, iirc, there was also the 64 3D game that made him feel that 3DS didn't need two games. Maybe the tepid sales of it also made Nintendo decide to suggest him to try his luck with Kid Icarus instead.

I really hope we see both series come to Switch someday. I'd love to play Uprising without straining my wrists, but I also don't want to see that come along in lieu of a Star Fox game, if for instance Bamco's mystery 3D remakester is one or the other, which I'm sure is an unpopular opinion here lol
 
Miraj said:
Also, iirc, there was also the 64 3D game that made him feel that 3DS didn't need two games. Maybe the tepid sales of it also made Nintendo decide to suggest him to try his luck with Kid Icarus instead.
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That doesn't add up considering this decision was made back in 2009, when Uprising started development. Star Fox 64 3D didn't come out until late 2011, only a few months before Uprising did, actually.
 
At the end of the day whatever Nintendo does I hope it’s the right call and Star Fox succeeds. More than anything the series has been flailing. Sales suck and critically they’re not that great either. 2 things I want (critical acclaim more) to correct now.
 
Star Fox Warriors.

On a serious note, Nintendo can find a way. I feel It's more if they want to find it.
 
Dinoman96 said:
That doesn't add up considering this decision was made back in 2009, when Uprising started development. Star Fox 64 3D didn't come out until late 2011, only a few months before Uprising did, actually.
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I'm sure he knew what was in development, or Nintendo management knew and suggested he do Kid Icarus instead since they had Q-Games already making a SF title. He gets the inside deets on a lot of stuff if the Smash games are anything to go by.
 
Miraj said:
I'm sure he knew what was in development, or Nintendo management knew and suggested he do Kid Icarus instead since they had Q-Games already making a SF title. He gets the inside deets on a lot of stuff if the Smash games are anything to go by.
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I'm just saying the middling sales of SF64 3D couldn't of possibly factored into Sakurai going with Kid Icarus instead considering neither games were even out in 2009.
 
to be sensible for a change, the only thing I really don't want from star fox is to look at it and ask myself "why is this star fox?"

if a game answers that question well I would be happy with it, regardless of my personal preferences
 
Miraj said:
Nintendo is resurrecting a lot of fan favorites on Switch. Who would've thought we'd get Pokemon Snap 2, Mario Strikers 3, Metroid 5, Pikmin 4, an Advance Wars remake (eventually)
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It’s incredible how all of these got revived in their original genres, with gameplay that continues and expands on their predecessors (crossing out Pikmin 4 because we don’t know anything about it). I remember people on Era complaining about New Pokémon Snap sticking to an on-rails approach even; that if it went for open exploration gameplay it would simply be better, more accessible and more of a must-have sales hit. I view this Star Fox discussion in the same way I view that.

To the main body of the post: an infatuation with sales feels like weak justification in a world where Famicom Detective Club and Advance Wars got revivals (even if as remakes). Even Star Fox 64 3D crawled to 1m and in the process outsold any previous games in those two series; not very tepid in that context. I don’t particularly care if you see rail shooters as an icky outdated genre that can’t hold up with modern audiences; nobody is asking for for a game 100% identical to Star Fox 64 in the first place. Zero being a retelling of 64 was one of the major points that got it so derided (besides the controls); as someone who kinda got into the unruly control scheme by the end the unoriginality in settings is what killed any interest in replaying it. Command is a mess but I like Star Fox 2; the management mechanics are an interesting spin on the formula; almost a shame 64 abandoned it and the Walker while reusing a ton of other concepts from it. Assault has elements that could be worth revisiting too; I don’t think on-foot segments are a particular bad fit for Star Fox, that sort of gameplay was already there in rudimentary form in Star Fox 64’s battle mode. They should absolutely expand on the multiplayer with online play next time too.

Point is there are ways to evolve Star Fox that don’t involve reinventing the wheel; hence people bringing up other rail shooter examples that do push the genre beyond what Star Fox 64 was capable of doing. I don’t believe the genre is a weight on the series in any regard. The problem is that they haven’t made a good new installment in the series in a long time (and the closest they’ve gotten, Assault and Zero, were on underperforming platforms); so with the Switch as popular as it is now is the time.
 
Dinoman96 said:
I'm just saying the middling sales of SF64 3D couldn't of possibly factored into Sakurai going with Kid Icarus instead considering neither games were even out in 2009.
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Oh I getcha. I was mostly thinking that he already knew SF643D was a thing, so the 3DS didn't need two Star Fox games released so close together.
 
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LukasManak22 said:
It's blessing to see the whole thread talking about Star Fox.
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I think a lot of people care about the characters that’s why. There’s people who see a greater potential in them. There’s people who just want Nintendo to make a great SF game. Nobody wants the series to die. There’s more passion because of it.
 
MondoMega said:
It’s incredible how all of these got revived in their original genres, with gameplay that continues and expands on their predecessors (crossing out Pikmin 4 because we don’t know anything about it). I remember people on Era complaining about New Pokémon Snap sticking to an on-rails approach even; that if it went for open exploration gameplay it would simply be better, more accessible and more of a must-have sales hit. I view this Star Fox discussion in the same way I view that.

To the main body of the post: an infatuation with sales feels like weak justification in a world where Famicom Detective Club and Advance Wars got revivals (even if as remakes). Even Star Fox 64 3D crawled to 1m and in the process outsold any previous games in those two series; not very tepid in that context. I don’t particularly care if you see rail shooters as an icky outdated genre that can’t hold up with modern audiences; nobody is asking for for a game 100% identical to Star Fox 64 in the first place. Zero being a retelling of 64 was one of the major points that got it so derided (besides the controls); as someone who kinda got into the unruly control scheme by the end the unoriginality in settings is what killed any interest in replaying it. Command is a mess but I like Star Fox 2; the management mechanics are an interesting spin on the formula; almost a shame 64 abandoned it and the Walker while reusing a ton of other concepts from it. Assault has elements that could be worth revisiting too; I don’t think on-foot segments are a particular bad fit for Star Fox, that sort of gameplay was already there in rudimentary form in Star Fox 64’s battle mode. They should absolutely expand on the multiplayer with online play next time too.

Point is there are ways to evolve Star Fox that don’t involve reinventing the wheel; hence people bringing up other rail shooter examples that do push the genre beyond what Star Fox 64 was capable of doing. I don’t believe the genre is a weight on the series in any regard. The problem is that they haven’t made a good new installment in the series in a long time (and the closest they’ve gotten, Assault and Zero, were on underperforming platforms); so with the Switch as popular as it is now is the time.
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I think the price focus is because Nintendo has released all Star Fox titles at retail (technically even SF2 was a big selling point for the SNES Classic) so they likely wouldn't do an eshop-only release. Perhaps a slightly lower-priced game like Captain Toad or Warioware might work.

Clearly 643D and Zero didn't do well despite being a return to the traditional formula, so it's questionable that it's a selling point. For some fans, that means its not worth pursuing if they change the formula, but for others it's a sign to move on and try something else. Nobody really can agree on what's best for it though. We just know that Nintendo likely wants the series to be a multi-million selling, full-priced title. One could say if it's such a struggle, then it's not worth it, but there's enough people wondering "Where's Star Fox Switch?" and the characters and property are liked enough that it has potential still.

Yeah, I personally found Zero disappointing in that it was just a retelling of SF64. For someone who likes the characters and stories, I found that boring, especially since we'd had a remake just a few years prior. On the other hand, Star Fox 2 was really neat in how it brought in more pilots, the idea of mixing and matching your wingman, the walker and light exploration stuff, and strategy elements. It's pretty rough, but the ideas are solid, and we've seen some elements of that in Command, Zero and even Starlink.

I remember Emily once saying the series seemed cursed. It's had titles release late on underperforming hardware, or get saddled with unpopular controls, or just outright cancelled. It's like how Advance Wars has the worst timing when it comes to release dates. Meanwhile, Animal Crossing had perfect timing. I worry they'll release a Star Fox game when the Switch is in decline, or right before new hardware pops up. Maybe the next Switch will be BC or they'll do a cross-platform release and make it a showcase for the new hardware. Would suck to see the series yet again skip popular hardware again though.
 
Dark Cloud said:
I think a lot of people care about the characters that’s why. There’s people who see a greater potential in them. There’s people who just want Nintendo to make a great SF game. Nobody wants the series to die. There’s more passion because of it.
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TBH with Star Fox it definitely feels like many people really like what they see in it, more so than what the series actually is.

A lot of people just like the potential of this sorta big epic space opera/military drama starring furries. As flawed as the mid-2000s Star Fox games (Adventures, Assault, and Command) were, they did kinda offer a glimpse into a bigger world in terms of stories, characters, and gameplay ideas, which is probably why you have more people going up to bat for them these days, especially Assault.
 
Nintendo needs more ip in the shooter area that they can incorporate star fox into. Think similar to gears of war for the land areas and have air wing sections in between. That being said they need more fantasy ip like Zelda, which kid Icarus would fit into nicely, having a release alongside Zelda. Would be nice to have options alongside their dedicated go to franchises.
 
Dinoman96 said:
TBH with Star Fox it definitely feels like many people really like what they see in it, more so than what the series actually is.

A lot of people just like the potential of this sorta big epic space opera/military drama starring furries. As flawed as the mid-2000s Star Fox games (Adventures, Assault, and Command) were, they did kinda offer a glimpse into a bigger world in terms of stories, characters, and gameplay ideas, which is probably why you have more people going up to bat for them these days, especially Assault.
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This pretty much sums it up. Great characters and setting, stellar music, some early hits and okay-ish to bad sequels. Lots of potential but flawed execution, and both fans and the developers seem unsure where to go with it but don't want to see it laid to rest when it still has worth.

So it's the Sonic of Nintendo, confirmed lol
 
Miraj said:
This pretty much sums it up. Great characters and setting, stellar music, some early hits and okay-ish to bad sequels. Lots of potential but flawed execution, and both fans and the developers seem unsure where to go with it but don't want to see it laid to rest when it still has worth.

So it's the Sonic of Nintendo, confirmed lol
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ugly-sonic-chip-n-dale.gif
 
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Honestly Star Fox wishes it could be in the position Sonic is these days. Yeah the games have been super hit or miss besides the occasional Mania but at least it has a huge multimedia presence with generally well regarded cartoons, comics and even movies now to help keep the series and its characters alive and well in the public conscious. It's pretty telling that Sonic Team went ahead and got Ian Flynn to help write for Sonic Frontiers considering how beloved his depictions of the Sonic characters are.

Nintendo never really tried very much with Star Fox in that regard. We had those old Nintendo Power comics back in the day, they did the (Japan only) Farewell Beloved Falco manga set between 64 and Adventures, and they also did The Battle Begins to promote Zero, and all of these were pretty neat but otherwise there's never been much of a big push for it.

Like, freaking F-Zero got a full fledged, 50+ anime before Star Fox did, even though SF1 and SF64 outsold all F-Zero games. Even Adventures sold more, besides the SNES F-Zero.
 
imo, Star Fox should be the rail shooter series it needs to be. You don't need to jerk it in directions like "Furry Mass Effect" to make it successful. Just make a good game.

Now, Kid Icarus. That's the real series that nintendo needs to capitalize on.
Just imagine the real potential instead of Sakurai half-baked rail shooter/3rd person action hybrid

tbh, I think Nintendo should make use of KIU's greatest asset, it's cast/world/writing, and make a game to capitalize on the vacuum that Overwatch's inevitable collapse will leave.

A nintendo-exclusive hero shooter with a colorful cast of distinct weirdos would be massive for the company, imo. There's a lot of uniqueness to be had with KIU's setting and cast that they're really leaving on the table.
 
The Battle Begins is probably the most popular piece of Star Fox media today. if anything, they should just make a web cartoon while they figure out what to do with the games

 
Dinoman96 said:
Honestly Star Fox wishes it could be in the position Sonic is these days. Yeah the games have been super hit or miss besides the occasional Mania but at least it has a huge multimedia presence with generally well regarded cartoons, comics and even movies now to help keep the series and its characters alive and well in the public conscious. It's pretty telling that Sonic Team went ahead and got Ian Flynn to help write for Sonic Frontiers considering how beloved his depictions of the Sonic characters are.

Nintendo never really tried very much with Star Fox in that regard. We had those old Nintendo Power comics back in the day, they did the (Japan only) Farewell Beloved Falco manga set between 64 and Adventures, and they also did The Battle Begins to promote Zero, and all of these were pretty neat but otherwise there's never been much of a big push for it.

Like, freaking F-Zero got a full fledged, 50+ anime before Star Fox did, even though SF1 and SF64 outsold all F-Zero games. Even Adventures sold more, besides the SNES F-Zero.
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I think a Star Fox series is inevitable for Nintendo’s current expansion into film and television. For fans really into the characters and world that’s an avenue for them to expand on those aspects while the next game can focus in on actually being good this time. Maybe a multimedia push would help Star Fox out; time will tell.
 
ILikeFeet said:
as slow as NIntendo has been with the multimedia stuff, I'm worried all we'll get is some shitty 3 min mario shorts that have a very sporadic release schedule
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I recently rewatched the old Zelda cartoon on you tube. It was not bad, only 1 season though. I think they could really expand with his kind of stuff in todays age.
 
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Dinoman96 said:
Honestly Star Fox wishes it could be in the position Sonic is these days. Yeah the games have been super hit or miss besides the occasional Mania but at least it has a huge multimedia presence with generally well regarded cartoons, comics and even movies now to help keep the series and its characters alive and well in the public conscious. It's pretty telling that Sonic Team went ahead and got Ian Flynn to help write for Sonic Frontiers considering how beloved his depictions of the Sonic characters are.

Nintendo never really tried very much with Star Fox in that regard. We had those old Nintendo Power comics back in the day, they did the (Japan only) Farewell Beloved Falco manga set between 64 and Adventures, and they also did The Battle Begins to promote Zero, and all of these were pretty neat but otherwise there's never been much of a big push for it.

Like, freaking F-Zero got a full fledged, 50+ anime before Star Fox did, even though SF1 and SF64 outsold all F-Zero games. Even Adventures sold more, besides the SNES F-Zero.
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As much as people laugh about Sonic fans, they have honestly kept that series alive. They read the comics, they watch the shows, they buy the games and make a lot of weird art on Deviantart. Sega did the smart move and hired the really talented fans to work on their comics, animations, movies and even the games themselves. No surprise that those takes on Sonic are really well-received, while Sonic Team keeps running into walls repeatedly.

Maybe Nintendo should take note and hire Star Fox fans to work on the series. Naw, instead they'll just DMCA anybody who tries to do a fan project, while they go collaborate with the Minions studio and Chris Pratt. I love Nintendo stuff, but man they are so distrustful of their fans sometimes.
 
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ILikeFeet said:
let's not pretend getting Illumination and Chris Pratt are bad moves. I get not liking their stuff, but if you want a good chance at success, that's the move you make
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This almost feels like a summation of the "do something new, and it may sell better even if fans are wary" take for Star Fox haha
Yeah, they may not be popular amongst the more hardcore audience, but the general audience will love it. Gonna be interesting to see how Miyamoto oversees it and guides them. Honestly despite the Minions, Illumination's other series like Secret Life of Pets and Sing are pretty decent and probably closer to what we'll get with Mario. I'm just glad we're likely not getting the original Mario movie or Detective Pikachu movie uncanny valley art style again.
 
ILikeFeet said:
let's not pretend getting Illumination and Chris Pratt are bad moves. I get not liking their stuff, but if you want a good chance at success, that's the move you make
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Yeah. I get wanting others. I did too. But Pratt isn’t a bad voice actor. He’s actually pretty good. I just don’t want and like him at all cause of the things he’s said and won’t say.

Illumination is a safe choice for marketing and having control, lots of hits and really big studio. I’ve seen some people say they have no cultural but that’s really unfair to them. Even if you dislike their films. Makes sense to go with them. We’ll see what happens when the film comes out and what other properties they might make. I don’t see the Mario film losing money.
 
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ILikeFeet said:
let's not pretend getting Illumination and Chris Pratt are bad moves. I get not liking their stuff, but if you want a good chance at success, that's the move you make
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I mean, yeah, if all you care about is marketability, but from an artistic, and in the case of Pratt, moral standpoint, it fucking sucks. This might be technically better than the 90s movie, but I guarantee it'll be less interesting.
 
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