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StarTopic Nintendo General Discussion |ST6 Mar. 2022| Marchful Mode
- Thread starter EvilChameleon
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manfromthedam
Semi Undercover Game Music Guy
I still think BotW2's 2021 trailer is a massive red herring - similar to how Mario Odyssey's, Animal Crossing's & Luigi's Mansion 3's initial trailers were really plain, but even more so. They know that Hyrule was the single big attractor for BotW. They won't just straight-up reuse that overworld. Plenty of things they can do to shake it up in a major way.
Also just showing even more Bokoblins and Moblins when the major criticism for BotW was a lack of enemy variety makes me think they're holding back almost everything about it.
Ways in which they can shake up the overworld besides cloud islands / "underworld":
1). other areas also take off to the skies, revealing new landscapes/chasms below;
2). massive chunks fall down from the sky upsetting the landscape;
3). segments of the world shift into parallel versions (a Zelda staple);
4). portals/elevators/boat rides that take you to new areas;
5). underwater exploration.
Also just showing even more Bokoblins and Moblins when the major criticism for BotW was a lack of enemy variety makes me think they're holding back almost everything about it.
Ways in which they can shake up the overworld besides cloud islands / "underworld":
1). other areas also take off to the skies, revealing new landscapes/chasms below;
2). massive chunks fall down from the sky upsetting the landscape;
3). segments of the world shift into parallel versions (a Zelda staple);
4). portals/elevators/boat rides that take you to new areas;
5). underwater exploration.
Amadeus
Starman
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- He/him
They litteraly made Hyrule Castle which is one of the best level designed dungeon of the Zelda series to me. Something like that, with even more puzzles and we're good I think.
9-Volt
Adept
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- he/him
If you want this to happen less, sleep less. If you don't sleep at all or sleep for a few hours a day, the last 10 years will feel like 30 instead.
I sleep for 4-5 hours a day and Avengers 2012 now feels like a lifetime ago.
manfromthedam
Semi Undercover Game Music Guy
Gimme Hyrule Castles all over the place with different moods and styles and maybe with some unique bosses and we're golden! I much prefer that over the artifice of a traditional Zelda dungeon. I like those too, but they don't really come across as believable places because of the puzzley layouts. That's why BotW resorts to "trials" - it's hard to frame the artificial nature of a Zelda dungeon in a believable way.
Dark Cloud
Warpstar Knight
BotW 2 is already doing stuff I don’t think we’ve seen in video games. Going through land from ground to the sky. And possibly going from land through the ground to underground. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
I trust Nintendo will naturally implement dungeons better. Make them feel more organic in the world. Create amazing dungeons. I said this, but unlike Elden Ring Nintendo had to make changes to Zelda. The formula had been done for so many times. Skyward Sword had even bigger issues on its own. Dark Souls didn’t have this issue.
This new open air template for open air Zelda can be built on now.
I trust Nintendo will naturally implement dungeons better. Make them feel more organic in the world. Create amazing dungeons. I said this, but unlike Elden Ring Nintendo had to make changes to Zelda. The formula had been done for so many times. Skyward Sword had even bigger issues on its own. Dark Souls didn’t have this issue.
This new open air template for open air Zelda can be built on now.
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I'd take more areas like Hyrule Castle, Eventide Island, the labryinths, Thyphlo Ruins, the Forgotten Temple, and Akkala Citadel. One of the issues I think this current format has is in how it makes the game 'readable' and 'progressable' for all players while also including unique content. The locations I've mentioned feature shrines or, in the case of Akkala Citadel, house one of the Towers. This means that these unique locations are still tied into the overarching logic and methods of progression for the wider game. Because they include a shrine or a Tower, you're going to get something solid with which you can make progress in the game; updated map data from the Tower, or a Sheikah orb from the shrines to improve stamina or health.
There's a little bit of tension there in how Nintendo make further 'dungeon-like' environments rewarding and surprising - do they just tie them into the central progression system (which might not even be Sheikah orbs next time out), or do they try and offer unique rewards? One of Breath of the Wild's strengths is that many different forms of activity ultimately reward you, even if I think many of us would agree that the aesthetic uniformity of the shrines is a little wearying. But, as locations like Thyphlo and Eventide demonstrate, you can create aesthetically and mechanically unique areas which still provide the basic health/stamina reward even if the primary challenge takes place outside of the shrine setting. Perhaps they can go a step further and, instead of transporting you into a shrine for the final reward, simply grant it to you when clear the 'dungeon-like' area.
It'd be good to see Nintendo more seamlessly integrate that stuff into the overworld, but then I think for the sake of the game being as comprehensible and readable to as many people as possible, Nintendo are still going to want clear markers and iconography for players to 'read'. Shrines provide that to players - they're not just physically distinct markers in the landscape for players to aim for, they feature a specific reward system for players. If you want more health or stamina, look for shrines. You complicate that progression system when you remove the shrine from the equation. It's not an irresolvable problem by any means, but it is something I think Nintendo will be conscious of.
All that being said, more areas like the Castle are definitely something they could provide without worrying about how it ties into the central health/stamina upgrades. More dungeon-like areas which test the arsenal of weapons you've accumulated, and which necessitate the use of meals and elixirs, and which exhibit non-linear progression would be great to have. I've said it before, but one thing I'd really love are unique, one-time only boss fights like Shadow of the Colossus. They could even have habitats or lairs to enter, or only appear during certain weather patterns or phases of the moon, or something like that.
edit - should also say I do think Breath of the Wild is excellent at subtly teaching players how to read the game and how to do 'random' activities/exploration in exchange for rewards. Korok seeds are a great example of this - you'll get a reward for rolling a stone down a hill, or jumping into lily pads, or matching the number of apples across three trees. It's a microcosmic example of the ethos of open-air Zelda. What we need are more large-scale examples of that kind of fun, different activity which results in a meaningful reward: like the environments I mention at the start of the post.
There's a little bit of tension there in how Nintendo make further 'dungeon-like' environments rewarding and surprising - do they just tie them into the central progression system (which might not even be Sheikah orbs next time out), or do they try and offer unique rewards? One of Breath of the Wild's strengths is that many different forms of activity ultimately reward you, even if I think many of us would agree that the aesthetic uniformity of the shrines is a little wearying. But, as locations like Thyphlo and Eventide demonstrate, you can create aesthetically and mechanically unique areas which still provide the basic health/stamina reward even if the primary challenge takes place outside of the shrine setting. Perhaps they can go a step further and, instead of transporting you into a shrine for the final reward, simply grant it to you when clear the 'dungeon-like' area.
It'd be good to see Nintendo more seamlessly integrate that stuff into the overworld, but then I think for the sake of the game being as comprehensible and readable to as many people as possible, Nintendo are still going to want clear markers and iconography for players to 'read'. Shrines provide that to players - they're not just physically distinct markers in the landscape for players to aim for, they feature a specific reward system for players. If you want more health or stamina, look for shrines. You complicate that progression system when you remove the shrine from the equation. It's not an irresolvable problem by any means, but it is something I think Nintendo will be conscious of.
All that being said, more areas like the Castle are definitely something they could provide without worrying about how it ties into the central health/stamina upgrades. More dungeon-like areas which test the arsenal of weapons you've accumulated, and which necessitate the use of meals and elixirs, and which exhibit non-linear progression would be great to have. I've said it before, but one thing I'd really love are unique, one-time only boss fights like Shadow of the Colossus. They could even have habitats or lairs to enter, or only appear during certain weather patterns or phases of the moon, or something like that.
edit - should also say I do think Breath of the Wild is excellent at subtly teaching players how to read the game and how to do 'random' activities/exploration in exchange for rewards. Korok seeds are a great example of this - you'll get a reward for rolling a stone down a hill, or jumping into lily pads, or matching the number of apples across three trees. It's a microcosmic example of the ethos of open-air Zelda. What we need are more large-scale examples of that kind of fun, different activity which results in a meaningful reward: like the environments I mention at the start of the post.
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ya hahaha
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What does that mean for us dummies?
- Pronouns
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SM = Streaming Multiprocessor which is basically a cluster of GPU cores. Nvidia's GPUs are defined by the amount of SMs they have.
TX1 in the original Switch had 2 SMs. Drake according to this documentation has 12.
Basically that means if the GPU clock speed remains the same this device will do 1.4TFlops in portable mode, meaning it'll outperform the PS4 in portable mode.
In docked it could potentially get up to 3TFlops depending on where they clock it.
MusicProposition
Bob-omb
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At the Nintendo HQ they sue you if you do it without saying the phrase
Bloody hell. Are we confident with this information? I knew it was a big upgrade but this is quite frankly an insane jump.
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Damn, sounds sexy
- Pronouns
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It's about as concrete as we can get at this stage. This is from a bona fide cyber attack which Nvidia has acknowledged, the information is accurate and up to date.
The only potential caveat here is that somehow we may be misinterpreting the info but I'm not sure how. It's regarding T239 which uses NVN2.
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Regarding the BotW discussion, it's funny because I'm playing OoT on NSO right now and just yesterday I was thinking about things I miss from that formula on BotW.
Zelda games used to feature unique puzzles throughout the whole map (and OoT is specially good about this). There are a lot of pieces of heart hidden, or even in plain sight, but you have to solve a puzzle to get to them. BotW just doesn't have that (the only thing I can remember is pushing that snowball into opening the door to a shrine in the snow region), instead you have a very strict pattern for puzzles and you always know what to expect (it's either a korok seed or a shrine or a hidden chest with nothing special inside). I hope we get unique puzzles spread out in the world like that again. I would also sacrifice a bit of the 100% freedom for some progression, like, give us some incremental new abilities again. Maybe keep the main game completely free, but give us optional items we have to get before we can do optional stuff. I just miss that feeling of trying to approach a puzzle without being sure you actually can solve it at that particular moment. BotW felt too trivial at times when you knew you could do anything anytime and nothing was out of your reach.
I hope shrine rewards are more varied and that you're able to find pieces of heart/stamina on other places too, because that means you can be excited when you find something on the map even if it isn't a shrine. I also hope they ditch the extra hearts from food because it made the actual hearts feel way less important than they were in past games.
Zelda games used to feature unique puzzles throughout the whole map (and OoT is specially good about this). There are a lot of pieces of heart hidden, or even in plain sight, but you have to solve a puzzle to get to them. BotW just doesn't have that (the only thing I can remember is pushing that snowball into opening the door to a shrine in the snow region), instead you have a very strict pattern for puzzles and you always know what to expect (it's either a korok seed or a shrine or a hidden chest with nothing special inside). I hope we get unique puzzles spread out in the world like that again. I would also sacrifice a bit of the 100% freedom for some progression, like, give us some incremental new abilities again. Maybe keep the main game completely free, but give us optional items we have to get before we can do optional stuff. I just miss that feeling of trying to approach a puzzle without being sure you actually can solve it at that particular moment. BotW felt too trivial at times when you knew you could do anything anytime and nothing was out of your reach.
I hope shrine rewards are more varied and that you're able to find pieces of heart/stamina on other places too, because that means you can be excited when you find something on the map even if it isn't a shrine. I also hope they ditch the extra hearts from food because it made the actual hearts feel way less important than they were in past games.
Sounds like it’ll be Switch generation 2 then which is far more exciting than a Pro would be and would really help solve a lot of support issues. Thanks for the info!
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Damn, that'd be great. I imagine they'll seriously have to upgrade the battery for it to last long enough with that kind of power.
Also, considering the massive power bump, there's no way that it won't be a Switch 2.
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On the contrary, such a large die would incur a very large price increase for the purchaser (i.e. Nintendo). Indicating this device would cost a fair amount more to the end user too.
I don't see it retailing for less than $400, probably $450 even. There's no way they would ever launch a new generation at that price. This would have to be a revision.
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Would a revision need such a drastic increase in power though? If every game still needs to run on the og Switch (and in portable mode) than there's a strict limit to what you can do with that hardware.
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As a tech dummy (or kinda), I have two questions :
1- Wouldn't a simple revision be a waste of such power, or would it mean that they'll make some exclusive games to this "Super Switch" ?
2- If Nintendo decided to release this console, let's say, in March 2024, wouldn't the price for the processor be less expensive at that point ? I thought that production costs for chips go down as time flies
manfromthedam
Semi Undercover Game Music Guy
Something to keep in mind is that BotW was all about that verticality. Climbing, parasailing, shield surfing, Revali's Gale, wind gusts, towers, swimming up waterfalls etc.. Exploration is based around using the map's verticality to your advantage.
BotW2 is already showing a dramatic evolution of this, with Link being able to move through ceilings.
BotW2 is already showing a dramatic evolution of this, with Link being able to move through ceilings.
I can see €450 happening for sure. Good point that this being a revision gives them the room to target that price point - something they would never do with a base system.
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It's not going to be a "simple" revision whatever it is. My opinion is that it's going to be an iterative successor, like the GBC or New 3DS was. It will have its own exclusive games (tons of third party ports in all likelihood) but most of its games will be shared with the base model.
I think calling it a revision versus new gen at this stage is just semantics. Nintendo will call it whatever they want. But I don't believe they'll position it as "this is our next platform" due to the entry price.
As for cost going down over time, they still need to pay for all of these chips. They've almost certainly locked in a contract with Samsung and Nvidia regarding production, I don't think waiting 2 more years would result in the prices in that contract changing. But I'm certainly no expert in that area.
9-Volt
Adept
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Don't forget, New 3DS was also a beast compared to regular 3DS but that extra power left unused, failed to attract third parties. Nintendo showcased it with Xeno port but no interest from third parties whatsoever made Nintendo move on. Unlike 3DS, Switch's gigantic third party support will make the difference with Pro version.
I had thought a gen 2 Switch would launch around that price and once it becomes the main focus and Nintendo wants everyone to transition they would lower the price. It would be unprecedented for Nintendo, but I think the Switch in general fits that model best. Kind of like iphone, to iphone 2 etc, but with longer gaps between models. This thing sounds way more powerful than I ever thought it would be.
I’m officially going to start hoping it comes out this year alongside Xenoblade 3. As Nintendo games become increasingly ambitious with open worlds, the lack of power is hitting them the hardest. I want this thing ready to play Pokemon and Zelda.
Edit: I’ll be stepping away for a while. Just want to add I think the original Switch is still the focus through 2023-2024. When 2025 rolls around it’s all about gen 2 Switch while original Switch still gets games from Nintendo for another two or three years.
So it's a multiple flop confirmed, I knew Nintendo's run had to end
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I think it wouldn't hurt to rework some of the central mechanics of BotW for its sequel, if only to differentiate it more from its predecessor. For a game like this in particular it might actually be for the best to approach it with an open mind and just abandon some stuff completely.
Decoupling character progression somewhat from the shrines would lessen the burden of making 100+ of them. They could focus on less dungeons but more unique and expansive ones instead.
The other thing is obviously unique rewards. BotW has a lot of behind the scenes stuff you aren't really supposed to consciously pay attention to like enemy and weapons scaling. The latter is intrinsically tied to the durability mechanic which can be somewhat counter-intuitive (I found that people who aren’t as experienced with games, RPGs in particular, to be less hung up about it) and in turn less rewarding. The game asks you to treat most of the weapons as disposable because you will get stronger and more durable ones later but for some people it deemphasizes combat and/or exploration. I think durability works exceptionally well in BotW but I don’t think it needs to come back without any changes.
But as others have said, we barely know anything about the game so all of this might be solved in a different way entirely.
Decoupling character progression somewhat from the shrines would lessen the burden of making 100+ of them. They could focus on less dungeons but more unique and expansive ones instead.
The other thing is obviously unique rewards. BotW has a lot of behind the scenes stuff you aren't really supposed to consciously pay attention to like enemy and weapons scaling. The latter is intrinsically tied to the durability mechanic which can be somewhat counter-intuitive (I found that people who aren’t as experienced with games, RPGs in particular, to be less hung up about it) and in turn less rewarding. The game asks you to treat most of the weapons as disposable because you will get stronger and more durable ones later but for some people it deemphasizes combat and/or exploration. I think durability works exceptionally well in BotW but I don’t think it needs to come back without any changes.
But as others have said, we barely know anything about the game so all of this might be solved in a different way entirely.
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More unique armor sets that give you unique bonuses would've been nice as rewards.
Either way yeah, the main things the sequel needs are more enemy variety, more location variety (particularly indoors locations) and more reward variety.
manfromthedam
Semi Undercover Game Music Guy
I hope they do change a lot honestly, and would prefer the Zelda team to keep evaluating every new game with the same critical eye they had when making BotW.
One feature that solves an issue with BotW which we have seen in the 2021 teaser: streamers on the sides of Link's parasail, giving you a visual indicator which direction the wind blows. This could allow the level designers to limit the player's freedom of movement in a sensible way to allow for more challenging exploration.
Also I was kinda surprised in BotW that Link is able to acquire so many hearts at all. When playing it for the first time I had the feeling 3 hearts was all you would get. I still think re-evaluating the maximum amount of hearts could keep the game challenging for longer, and it would remove pressure from the progression system.
Dark Cloud
Warpstar Knight
Variety variety variety is the name of the game for BotW 2.
manfromthedam
Semi Undercover Game Music Guy
Yes please! I'm playing through Twilight Princess for the first at the moment (kinda blown away by how good it is...) and every dungeon has a unique boss and midboss. The enemy and environment variety in that game is bonkers and it does so much to keep it engaging.
Also seeing Elden Ring footage that game has gazillions of enemy types and biomes. BotW is a game with an aggressively narrow scope in some ways, which makes sense considering the enormous undertaking it already was, but you can feel it in it's lack of enemy types and almost complete lack of unique and substantial indoor environments.
BlueKing
Shriekbat
BotW is the biggest selling Zelda game ever, I don't see them doing anything to make it more challenging, just for the sake of it.
Don't do this. Don't give me hope.
Amadeus
Starman
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Babylon's fall lol
9-Volt
Adept
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Why would a PS5 owner get pissed about a Triangle Strategy review? Obviously he's talking about something else.
CyberWolfBia
I talk more about games than I play them
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is safe for a 'regular-Switch-owner-that-has-no-desire-to-upgrade-whatsoever-in-the-next-two-years' to post now?
- Pronouns
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Fuck me, this is gonna be impossible to find at launch even if it is on 8nm
SIX HUNDO CANADIAN LOONIES
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Sorry
Look at it this way, it's only 300 Canadian toonies!Fuck me, this is gonna be impossible to find at launch even if it is on 8nm
SIX HUNDO CANADIAN LOONIES
CyberWolfBia
I talk more about games than I play them
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I'm just messing around! No need to apologize!Sorry
I suppose that I should just back off a little bit while you're all so enthusiastic on the subject;
Warlord
Chain Chomp
Damn, is there anything they could do to keep the price down?
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This is it, right here!@Josh5890 if you still want to do that avatar bet thread about Zelda making this year or not, I found the ideal one you can use
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