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StarTopic Nintendo First Party Software Development |ST| Nintendo Party Superstars

Star fox is inherently flawed, i feel like.

  • Its set in a dead genre.
  • From the beginning it was created to showcase the power of a platform. Then layer adapted to showcase gimmicks (3D, Zero)

So like, what do you do with it? You cant go big because it doesnt have potential, and Nintendo sees it solely as a way to showcase the newest toy.

Do you go cheaper and make a budget attempt just to seethe fans a little? I know if i was one id feel sad.

Maybe do you reboot it and do something completely different? I wouldnt blame fans for getting alienated by this.
Kid Icarus: Uprising already shows you what you can do. Half rail shooting, half on foot third-person shooting which is a direct evolution of Assault, of which the only "gimmick" it really used was the click in analog triggers on the GameCube to differentiate between tilting the Arwing or barrel rolls.

Part of what can make games so much cheaper to make is to focus on the combat system so you traverse through less level at a slower pace, spending time killing enemies while moving on. Star Fox can develop on foot gameplay to a greater degree beyond what was in Assault and Zero. This can help lower development costs as well to make a lean 8-12 hour game just like Uprising was, despite a bunch of variety in locales. And no one sane is going to complain about that. Games like Luigi's Mansion 3, Metroid Dread, Devil May Cry 5, and Resident Evil are generally that length or even shorter and are decent to good sellers already.
 
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I still say Nintendo should partner with Good Feel for on-foot missions on a StarFox game. Their senior members worked on the classic Contra games. Imagine Starfox in the sky and Contra on the ground with its crazy action set pieces.
 
If they wanted to make a somewhat appealing Star Fox that doesn’t break the bank they would give it to Platinum and ask them to remember their work on Vanquish. It wouldn’t be the same without Mikami (and whoever left with him to form Tango) but should be decent nonetheless.
 
If they wanted to make a somewhat appealing Star Fox that doesn’t break the bank they would give it to Platinum and ask them to remember their work on Vanquish. It wouldn’t be the same without Mikami (and whoever left with him to form Tango) but should be decent nonetheless.

The original director (obviously) and all the game designers left. 80% of the programmers are at different companies as well. The art staff is all over the place.
I still say Nintendo should partner with Good Feel for on-foot missions on a StarFox game. Their senior members worked on the classic Contra games. Imagine Starfox in the sky and Contra on the ground with its crazy action set pieces.

Honestly wouldn't you think a programmer from Splatoon could do a better 3D on-foot mission than a programmer from an old 2D contra?
 
The original director (obviously) and all the game designers left. 80% of the programmers are at different companies as well. The art staff is all over the place.


Honestly wouldn't you think a programmer from Splatoon could do a better 3D on-foot mission than a programmer from an old 2D contra?

Could a programmer from the 2D Mario series make a better Wario Land or Yoshi game than Good Feel? Can a programmer from HAL make a better Kirby game than Good Feel? Hasn't stopped them from using Good Feel before. And I prefer the action from Contra to that of Splatoon (matter of opinion, I know). I would imagine those sections would play like Sin & Punishment. It's unfortunate Treasure is basically an IP holder now. Plus I'm not sure Nintendo would pull programmers from Splatoon to make a Starfox game given the gulf in the sales potential of both games. That's why I thought it might make sense to use Good Feel. Nintendo and GF seem to have a strong relationship, GF has a pedigree in that style of action, and it allows Nintendo's in-house programmers to focus more on the higher priority title.
 
What Starfox game do you even remake? Assault would be my pick, (bit it feels like its in port territory, maybe the ground sections need improving?) maybe or a very different version of starfox 2 (which had its lunch ate by 64 anyway?). 1, 64 and zero all feel like reboots of the same god damn story. This franchise has been spinning its wheels regardless of game quality. If we get another semi-reboot, it had better have a mostly new plot.
Assault, defo. It's a flawed gem and with some polish and tweaking, they could make it shine. Rework the ground combat controls, add online to the multiplayer, and possibly even add an extra story mode a la the various other remasters Nintendo have done. It wouldn't be a huge endeavor. Heck, just let Bamco work on it, since they made it originally. Assault was the natural progression from the rail shooter template, and while people balked at the very idea of Fox jumping out of a cockpit, subsequent games showed that wasn't the issue with the series. If anything, having playable characters, not vehicles, may make it more popular to modern audiences.
Star Fox can die if it means we get a new Sin and Punishment or Kid Icarus instead, the superior series.

I feel like Kid Icarus: Uprising's structure is a great way to make a new Star Fox. It's essentially the evolution of Star Fox design: 25 levels with flight rail shooting and third-person shooting on the ground, like Assault, except instead of giant arenas they're linear levels with gimmicks here and there. Also 25 levels instead of 10.

Also, the Landmaster sucks so bad. The Walker from Zero is so much better. If they ever do ground-based vehicles again, they should use the Walker or make the Landmaster just as mobile.

Still though, I have enjoyed most Star Fox games. The only one I absolutely despise is Adventures because it feels like they played Zelda but got the absolute worst ideas from it possible. Aside from that, the worst is really something like Command where it's just kind of mid, but not like super terrible. Even Zero is really fun and additionally it is one of the best co-op games I've experienced in recent times, though solo is still quite enjoyable.
Ironically, Kid Icarus started as a Star Fox game, but Sakurai reasoned that since you can't quickly adjust to shoot in an Arwing, it was better suited as a Kid Icarus game. Now, I think that's ridiculous logic (just add port weapons or the ability to change the camera Panzer Dragoon-style), and Kid Icarus was an action platformer... I think that was just his excuse to say "I'd rather see what I can do with the Kid Icarus universe", and he took his Star Fox concepts and made it into Uprising.
Star fox is inherently flawed, i feel like.

  • Its set in a dead genre.
  • From the beginning it was created to showcase the power of a platform. Then layer adapted to showcase gimmicks (3D, Zero)

So like, what do you do with it? You cant go big because it doesnt have potential, and Nintendo sees it solely as a way to showcase the newest toy.

Do you go cheaper and make a budget attempt just to seethe fans a little? I know if i was one id feel sad.

Maybe do you reboot it and do something completely different? I wouldnt blame fans for getting alienated by this.
Despite the hype, Kid Icarus: Uprising was only a modest hit, Sin & Punishment 2 bombed, and the vehicular-only Star Fox games like Command and Zero didn't even reach the 500k sales mark, so it's arguable that rail shooters just aren't appealing on a large scale anymore. I think the Arwing, despite its iconic status with fans, is an albatross around the series' neck. Good thing Star Fox has tried other genres, and is versatile enough to be anything from a character action game to an RPG! I would love to see like a MonolithSoft-made Star Fox RPG a la Xenoblade X, or Platinum make a Bayo-style action game (with some rail shooter segments to appease oldschool fans).

~~

Whatever they do, they absolutely must move past Star Fox 64's story and gameplay. It's just not viable anymore. They've tried multiple times to appease the 64 fans in the past 12 years and it's not gaining a wider audience. They could just make a direct sequel to Assault, and maybe focus on warring factions after the Aparoids devastated the Venom and Cornerian forces. A power vaccuum story where you can choose who to side with or play against could be cool. Introduce online multiplayer where you could have a squad of friends (maybe with custom characters) and it'd be pretty novel. This is also why I think a remaster/remake of Assault would be good, because it'd reorient old fans and introduce the series to new ones, while setting up a new game on the Switch succesor.
 
Ironically, Kid Icarus started as a Star Fox game, but Sakurai reasoned that since you can't quickly adjust to shoot in an Arwing, it was better suited as a Kid Icarus game. Now, I think that's ridiculous logic (just add port weapons or the ability to change the camera Panzer Dragoon-style), and Kid Icarus was an action platformer... I think that was just his excuse to say "I'd rather see what I can do with the Kid Icarus universe", and he took his Star Fox concepts and made it into Uprising.
Then they made Zero, which decoupled aiming from the Arwing which further makes that logic even weirder in hindsight lol.

About how all those other games sold badly though, it feels like there's another factor that held them back. Kid Icarus: Uprising's controls, Sin and Punishment 2 not getting much marketing outside of Nintendo Power, etc. I do feel like a new Star Fox that is a certified 85+ on MC with 10 hours on a first playthrough would be a solid 2-3 million seller.
 
If series as niche as Pikmin and Xenoblade can sell 2 million I don’t think a new Star Fox rail shooter is doomed to fail. The Nintendo ecosystem is stronger than it was in 2012 or 2005.

Now if they want to grow the series and make it a tent pole Nintendo IP like in the 90s, then they need to shake it up. But I don’t think it’s necessary or something Nintendo wants to do.
 
If series as niche as Pikmin and Xenoblade can sell 2 million I don’t think a new Star Fox rail shooter is doomed to fail. The Nintendo ecosystem is stronger than it was in 2012 or 2005.

Now if they want to grow the series and make it a tent pole Nintendo IP like in the 90s, then they need to shake it up. But I don’t think it’s necessary or something Nintendo wants to do.
Yeah, GROWING the series into a 5 million or above seller is an entirely different story and requires a much different approach, one that I don't think I would enjoy as much as just a normal evolution of Assault.

But we don't need that. We can have games that don't need insane scope and sets out to nail the game feel without going overboard on budget. Just making the big supergames like Tears of the Kingdom is not sustainable. The difference is that I am okay with a game being more niche (like 2-3 million) as long as it remains a consistent seller for years to come.
 
Then they made Zero, which decoupled aiming from the Arwing which further makes that logic even weirder in hindsight lol.

About how all those other games sold badly though, it feels like there's another factor that held them back. Kid Icarus: Uprising's controls, Sin and Punishment 2 not getting much marketing outside of Nintendo Power, etc. I do feel like a new Star Fox that is a certified 85+ on MC with 10 hours on a first playthrough would be a solid 2-3 million seller.
Haha, yeah Nintendo being Nintendo!

Indeed, there's always some kind of factor that kneecaps these games.Forced, gimmicky controls, lack of marketing, releasing on an already dwindling/dead system... they just really don't know how to handle some IPs.

Interestingly, it seems Nintendo's sci-fi IPs are the ones that have suffered from this the most. Metroid and Pikmin are having a resurgence after being in precarious positions for a while, but Star Fox, F-Zero, Sin & Punishment, etc. all are pretty much dead at this point. It's almost like they can't compartmentalize how to make and market non-fantasy/adventure IP without some kind of huge caveat. The stars just rarely align for their sci-fi games. Xenoblade is probably the one exception, but even that took a long time to finally take off.
 
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If series as niche as Pikmin and Xenoblade can sell 2 million I don’t think a new Star Fox rail shooter is doomed to fail. The Nintendo ecosystem is stronger than it was in 2012 or 2005.

Now if they want to grow the series and make it a tent pole Nintendo IP like in the 90s, then they need to shake it up. But I don’t think it’s necessary or something Nintendo wants to do.
It's frustrating to be reminded that Star Fox used to be one of those tentpole games. It was pretty much the poster child for the N64 alongside Mario, Zelda and Rare's games. It's really disheartening to see it get sidelined. I feel the same about DK and Warioland, too. While neither are dead, we have to wait a decade or more between entries, and it's always up in the air when we'll see them again. I worry Warioland itself has been forever replaced by Warioware, too.
 
If series as niche as Pikmin and Xenoblade can sell 2 million I don’t think a new Star Fox rail shooter is doomed to fail. The Nintendo ecosystem is stronger than it was in 2012 or 2005.

Now if they want to grow the series and make it a tent pole Nintendo IP like in the 90s, then they need to shake it up. But I don’t think it’s necessary or something Nintendo wants to do.
there are critical differences between Star Fox and Pikmin and Xenoblade. like the latter two no being rail shooters in the first place, so their success is irrelevant to determining if being a rail shooter is even a problem or not
 
Yes please don’t compare Star Fox to Pikmin in Xenoblade. The genres are not the same. Comparisons don’t work. Neither are rail shooters. Nintendo didn’t leave Star Fox to die. The GENRE left Star Fox where it’s at. It will never be a staple series if it stays as is.

Nintendo had no problems having multiple Xenoblade games this generation. They had no problems putting the entire Pikmin series out this generation. If Star Fox was the same they would’ve released at least two Star Fox games. Nintendo sees Star Fox in a different way.
 
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What Starfox game do you even remake?
The obvious answer is Assault. SNES/64/64-3D/Zero keeps getting that treatment. SNES-II did finally see an official release recently, of course, though it seems more obvious as an addition to that metagrouping already mentioned. Adventures goes in a wildly different direction.

Assault works as a sort of evolution of the earlier gameplay form, though it maybe didn't pull everything off quite as spectacularly as hoped. As a whole, though, I still think reworking a cohesive package for the different games is the preferable way to go -- building from the earlier gameplay to the later and presenting the evolution in that format. This might conflict with some of my thoughts regarding how an Adventures remake could work, but it can be worked into an acceptable tradeoff. I figure this would present a baseline for the franchise going forward, while showcasing the ongoing changes in style.

To go further beyond that, Kid Icarus: Uprising seems like what an evolution from Assault would have been, which makes sense given -- as Miraj helpfully noted -- Star Fox was at least a consideration for that game.

Star fox is inherently flawed, i feel like.

  • Its set in a dead genre.
  • From the beginning it was created to showcase the power of a platform. Then layer adapted to showcase gimmicks (3D, Zero)

That's the great thing about it: it doesn't have to be!

Star Fox as a series is adaptable to different ideas, but it's probably best if it's easy to argue the same DNA is still to be found in the different attempts; I mention often enough that a character action game (yes, I assume there are Arwings involved) made with Star Fox in mind and not just as serial numbers engraved into it could be a decent idea: can draw from the same arcade style, score rankings, et cetera.

Beyond that, I think it can probably do at least well enough without changing entirely.

I think it's notable that Nintendo has taken chances remaking much more obscure/niche games that mostly diehards ask for, like Famicom Detective Club and Advance Wars
There are differences here, of course, such as the types of games these are and that they seem to have been remade because some studios in particular -- even outside of Nintendo! -- wanted to do the (presumably low-risk) projects.
I very badly want to see a Star Fox on Switch (cross-gen is good too) but of course Nitnendo once again skips massively popular hardware that the series could find a big audience on.
Notably, launching for the Switch installbase but with decent upgrades for the next system could be a sound strategy.

Honestly wouldn't you think a programmer from Splatoon could do a better 3D on-foot mission than a programmer from an old 2D contra?
Now we're talking. If Splatoon people had ideas they wanted to try in Star Fox, that could prove interesting, and if they specifically had ideas for Star Fox, they might even be able to get the project greenlit. That's the trick though: they have to have the desire. I doubt they get put on the project otherwise, and I doubt they get put on the project just to fulfill another vision (see Zero with PlatinumGames).


I thought about starting a thread inquiring how posters here might handle Star Fox if given the authority, since it seems to have overtaken this one, but it might be a bit close to @Miraj's thread linked earlier
 
The funny thing is that Star Fox games have had progressively less on-rails gameplay with each entry (Adventures being an obvious outlier). Even 64, the most popular and successful one, wasn’t a pure railshooter. But science suggests that the people yearn for the rails.
I hope people take this seriously
 
The problem with nearly all of the Star Fox games after 64 is that they were all bad. If Nintendo made them fun instead, they might get somewhere. This can be seen with the notable exception of 2017's Star Fox 2, which was good and fun. More like that please!
 
Ironically, Kid Icarus started as a Star Fox game, but Sakurai reasoned that since you can't quickly adjust to shoot in an Arwing, it was better suited as a Kid Icarus game. Now, I think that's ridiculous logic (just add port weapons or the ability to change the camera Panzer Dragoon-style), and Kid Icarus was an action platformer... I think that was just his excuse to say "I'd rather see what I can do with the Kid Icarus universe", and he took his Star Fox concepts and made it into Uprising.

I am so glad it became a Kid Icarus game. IMO the Kid Icarus character designs are infinitely more appealing and up there with the very best in Nintendo's repertoire.
 
Do we see Kirby going from yearly to once every three years now that Forgotten Land sold so much more than other games in the series and with Vanpool dead?
Kirby has long been a very experimental series, and I don't expect that to change if it can be helped, so it seems unlikely Kirby will be brought down to just its 3D iteration. Chances are, Nintendo/HAL will seek out a new partner, or a few, to help keep the Kirby operating business as usual.

The question remains who will join the Kirby task force. Eighting has already had a hand in Star Allies, but might be preoccupied with Pikmin now. Good Feel has done a number of platformers for Nintendo.

Maybe this is how we get Ganbarion back into the fold. Okay, seriously now, where's my Pandora's Tower? It deserves a chance to live!

Could the possibility be open for different Nintendo developers to develop titles if they have people wanting to? This could be Retro's new project for training new employees or something.

And with that awkward segue ...

Personally, id prefer much more a next level game with astounding animation and visuals.
Counterpoint: Retro Studios with their Donkey Kong fur tech.

I am so glad it became a Kid Icarus game. IMO the Kid Icarus character designs are infinitely more appealing and up there with the very best in Nintendo's repertoire.
Uprising really filled out the setting with characters, and now those are a strength for Kid Icarus as well. Still waiting for Uprising to return, and for Kid Icarus to return beyond just that.
 
Star allies sold about 2/3 of forgotten land, do we have any idea about budget? Even the most recent 2d remake might break 2 mill eventually. 2d kirby isn't dead, and kirby is gonna keep getting lots of games and spinoffs. Surely some of Vanpools devs went to Hal? And at the very least with the easy money of new 2d kirby games, it seems like Hal would want to keep the gravy train rolling.
 
Sadly, when Retro said that DK was over for them i imagine that probably applies to other cartoony ips. ESPECIALLY now that the vast majority of the studio's employees come from high budget cinematic western ips.
Interesting. I don't recall this statement.

Regardless, categorically refusing to work on any cartoony IP seems a tall order. In any case, I seem to recall there was an influx of these sorts of hires during Donkey Kong productions (and that people tried to extrapolate from these hires back then), and this sort of pedigree was always at the core of Retro.



Star allies sold about 2/3 of forgotten land, do we have any idea about budget? Even the most recent 2d remake might break 2 mill eventually. 2d kirby isn't dead, and kirby is gonna keep getting lots of games and spinoffs. Surely some of Vanpools devs went to Hal? And at the very least with the easy money of new 2d kirby games, it seems like Hal would want to keep the gravy train rolling.
HAL absorbed the Amazing Mirror / Mouse Attack team when Flagship was disbanded, so there's a precedent.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if many of these developers found a home in HAL. How that manifests in output going forward, I am unsure. Beyond that, I feel like there was another studio that seemed a likely place for them to go, but I can't think of what it would have been.

Part of me thinks Nintendo should try to transition Love-de-Lic (more recently skip and Vanpool) talent to a newly-formed studio, but a wholly different part of me insists that's absurd.
 
Interesting. I don't recall this statement.
Oh no i didn't mean as in like... Michael Kelbaugh coming out one day and saying that. It was revealed in a kwiitalkz interview that by corruption retro was already fried from metroid, and the death of one of their top engineers (who was the creator of the studio's camera) really made everything more grim.

It was also revealed that they were the ones that chose DK after looking for new IPS to develop.

Wait a second... you asked that about Dk not Metroid... oh well i'll leave that there.

While it wasnt revealed what they were working into, it was most likely not related to DK. Due to unknown reasons differences Retro might have gotten assigned a new producer, with tanabe stepping out of the way (with the infamous 2015 interview of him stating that he didn't know what they were up to).

Moreover, Retro at that time began hiring Writers and Sci-FI composers (such as Alexander Brandon, who created Deus EX's ost), who went on to say on Twitter that the two of them had plans together (it wasnt exactly like that but it was on that wavelenght). Which certainly doesnt screams to me that they were doing another DK game.

Regardless, categorically refusing to work on any cartoony IP seems a tall order. In any case, I seem to recall there was an influx of these sorts of hires during Donkey Kong productions (and that people tried to extrapolate from these hires back then), and this sort of pedigree was always at the core of Retro.
Im aware, and i agree. Those people are incredible artists that of course will be able to do several great things. But i feel like it's different from the hires from the early 2010:

For DKTF they were simply complementing their workforce.

Since 2019 in comparison through: they are creating new roles, new divisions, and massively expanding everything. Not just concept artists but directors, producers, senior staff, writers, motion capture artists, etc.
 
Since 2019 in comparison through: they are creating new roles, new divisions, and massively expanding everything. Not just concept artists but directors, producers, senior staff, writers, motion capture artists, etc.

This seems more likely just a reality of HD AAA development. They were able to get away with it making a 2D platformer in 2014 but certainly not now. I think they're just simply looking for talent. They've hired all kinds of people... An animator that worked on Pixar stuff, and super young inexperienced staff, for example a dude who was so obsessed with the original Metroid Prime that he became a programmer and applied to Retro. After Tropical Freeze they also hired a lot of former Junction Point staff as that studio dissolved, who worked on the Epic Mickey games. It's really not just people from the AAA cinematic space.
 
This seems more likely just a reality of HD AAA development. They were able to get away with it making a 2D platformer in 2014 but certainly not now. I think they're just simply looking for talent. They've hired all kinds of people... An animator that worked on Pixar stuff, and super young inexperienced staff, for example a dude who was so obsessed with the original Metroid Prime that he became a programmer and applied to Retro. After Tropical Freeze they also hired a lot of former Junction Point staff as that studio dissolved, who worked on the Epic Mickey games. It's really not just people from the AAA cinematic space.
hyperbole. Most of it is, and certainly the senior staff is.
I don’t think who they hire is indicative of the type of games Retro is planning on only making.
Im not saying that it is, i just pointed out that since retro didn't want to work on dk anymore its unlikely they would want to work on star fox, that comment is just an add on that i did.
 
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this post aint serious
 
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oh. im sorry. It's just that many users in this forum have this way of disagreeing with other people... y know... acting sly as if what the other person said is preposterous.
I think of most of Nintendo's IPs as highly stylized, so I was having trouble thinking up ones I personally wouldn't call cartoony, and wasn't coming up with anything other than Metroid. But it wasn't disagreeing with you :)

I think Retro is very suited to making visual content in the "western" style, as it were, and that's partially just a product of it being a Western studio. There is a certain subset of people willing and able to work in Texas, period, and you staff up for a Prime game you're going to slant that hiring even more.

When I think Retro, the defining characteristic, for me, isn't visual, it's their boss fights, which I suspect is an influence of Tanabe, as several Retro folk have talked about him being a sort of virtuoso of them, and often pushing the difficulty to the limit.
 
When I think Retro, the defining characteristic, for me, isn't visual, it's their boss fights, which I suspect is an influence of Tanabe, as several Retro folk have talked about him being a sort of virtuoso of them, and often pushing the difficulty to the limit.
Tangent - just realizing that Tanabe oversaw all of NLG's Nintendo games, all of Retro's games, and a decent chunk of NST's output. With Vanpool, Skip, and AlphaDream gone, the only Japanese company Tanabe has a working relationship with is Intelligent Systems.
 
I'm saying this genuinely - what Nintendo IPs are left if you eliminate "cartoony"?
Eternal Darkness? Does Nintendo own that or did it die with Silicon Knights?

There's also Endless Ocean, but that really doesn't seem like something Retro would ever touch.

Would you call the various racing/extreme sports games cartoon-y? I'm talking stuff like Wave Race, Excite Bike/Truck/Bots, 1080, that kinda thing.
 


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