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Previews The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom | Preview Thread

Selarmor said:
Every 3D Zelda prior to BotW had real time or limited healing without being difficult and a health system that isn't fundamentally broken isn't a trait inherent to Dark Souls but (y)
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Funny, I remember the fairies saving you automatically in Zelda 3 and onwards, also the potion in Link's Awakening. You didn't have to use it "in real time".
Also, potions, you press a button and you're instantly regenerated, even better in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, the game literrally freeze when you drink anything or use a fairy. How different it is from BotW in the pause menu ?
 
Skittzo said:
Hmmm I hadn't seen that screenshot where it's a door.

Also I'm pretty sure Gene was explicitly not referring to that, considering he said nobody expected him to be able to get there and there are 4 of those on the first demo area. I think it's clear he was referring to something else.
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Was that in his stream? This is what he says in the article

During my “Tears” session, I unlocked the entrance to a sky dungeon by timing my 50,000-feet-in-the-air jumps while moving floating platforms around with Ultra Hand. Nintendo representatives overseeing my play said they had not seen anyone else solve the puzzle the way I did. I peered over at my neighbors, who used fans, airplanes and floating platforms to get to their destination.
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Which seems to imply that it was the common objective for the demo. Aka the green thing. The unexpected part was the approach
 
balgajo said:
If someone don't notice they have an almost infinite health method(or didn't engage with the loot system) I'd agree.
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In comparison to past games specifically it doesn't make a difference, though. Even with min-maxing in mind they are way harder anyway.

It's not like you died in combat encounters much, if at all, in past 3D Zelda games. And most fights against enemies are so much more involved and take so much more effort in BotW that it isn't even close in terms of challenge.
 
Obviously I can't talk for the mass, but in my circle of friends the game becoming too easy once past the beginning of the game is a complaint I hear often. Both because of the enemy scaling being inefficient and the food system being OP.
Personally, I think the issue with the food healing system goes beyond just difficulty because it also interrupts the flow of a battle with food not being accessible via at least a quick menu.
TotK seems to streamline a lot of the issues seen in BotW, making you avoiding the menu as much as possible and even making quick menu more efficient with the wheel, so it's a shame that the food seems to be the only thing that escaped this process.
Also, I don't think that having a lot of food healing a ton of HP in your inventory is something you could call min maxing. Once you have learned enough about the game and its cooking system, it's actually super easy to make food that gives you max HP.
Cooking is one of my favourite part of BotW, and so I did experiment a lot with it. I wasn't doing that for the sake of being the most efficient, but simply because it was fun. My point is that in my case, "breaking the game" (pardon the oxymoron) with food came as a natural result of simply playing it.

Yes, there is always the option of just imposing self limitations; but I have never felt good with straight up ignoring parts of a game with the purpose of increasing difficulty. My hope is simply that the game got a hard mode available from the beginning and better designed than the one in the BOTW DLC, so the game can remain accessible.
 
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About healing during combat. I think it would be a nice optional toggle. My main worries are about infinite healing resources.

DunningSmith said:
I don't want to sound like a dick, but this is the first time I heard someone had to heal themselves multiple times against Calamity Ganon. You are also the first person I know that died to the doodoo Ganondorf in Twilight Princess, that decreases your health by half a heart with his pathetic attacks.

I generally agree that the food system in BotW is an easy cop-out and I wouldn't be against changes. But even with that, I regard BotW's difficulty way higher most other 3D Zeldas solely for the fact that even random mobs can take multiple hearts from you with a single hit, while in most other 3D Zeldas the final boss can't take more than one from you.
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Usually in Zelda games you have to spend resources to reach the final boss location. At least for me it is pretty common in the first playthroughs to arrive at the final boss with few resources. And then spend what's left in the final boss until learning I learn their patterns.
 
NabiscoFelt said:
I've heard it a couple times, but by its nature it's an incredibly niche complaint, since it relies on

A. Someone caring that much about combat difficulty
B. Someone caring that much about combat difficulty in a Zelda game
C. That person not just shrugging and deciding to use a self-imposed "no food during cooking" challenge

Like, personally I think it's a fairly valid complaint, and I don't think it would be a bad idea to have a mode where you can't pause and eat. But it's not something I'm going to actively complain about since I don't really get past step A (I enjoy a difficult challenge but it's far from a necessity when it comes to enjoying a game. And if it were I'd probably be fine with a self-imposed challenge)
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Right, I think point C is what really separates it from the most obvious comparison, forced EXP Share in Pokémon. The latter system (a) would be incredibly easy for Game Freak to (optionally) remove, and (b) is extremely cumbersome to manually get around (i.e. by only having one Pokémon in your party at a time or whatever). So while I've never personally cared about EXP Share, I definitely get why it's a sticking point for some.

The food system can definitely make the game much easier but only if you choose to let it. Set yourself personal rules; e.g. no more than 10 meals in your inventory at time, no more than one of any given meal, no healing (or any kind of pausing) during combat, etc. Obviously this isn't the most ~optimal~ way to play the game, but unless you're a speedrunner, attempting to play BOTW with optimal strategy seems to miss the point of the game (and is honestly going to be way less fun)
 
balgajo said:
About healing during combat. I think it would be a nice optional toggle. My main worries are about infinite healing resources.


Usually in Zelda games you have to spend resources to reach the final boss location. At least for me it is pretty common in the first playthroughs to arrive at the final boss with few resources. And then spend what's left in the final boss until learning I learn their patterns.
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I mean, fair (and sorry if I sounded too impolite).
But still, BotW is still far above any other 3D Zelda (except maybe for MM) in terms of difficulty even with the food system. I agree though that the main bulk of the difficulty lies in the first half of the game. But that's the case in a lot of video games.

Koren Lesthe said:
Funny, I remember the fairies saving you automatically in Zelda 3 and onwards, also the potion in Link's Awakening. You didn't have to use it "in real time".
Also, potions, you press a button and you're instantly regenerated, even better in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, the game literrally freeze when you drink anything or use a fairy. How different it is from BotW in the pause menu ?
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This is also a very good point.
 
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Koren Lesthe said:
Funny, I remember the fairies saving you automatically in Zelda 3 and onwards, also the potion in Link's Awakening. You didn't have to use it "in real time".
Also, potions, you press a button and you're instantly regenerated, even better in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, the game literrally freeze when you drink anything or use a fairy. How different it is from BotW in the pause menu ?
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I said 3D Zelda. In Skyward Sword potions are actually consumed in real time, and in others you have to be in a condition where you can use items i.e you can't consume a potion in the middle a damage animation, while falling, etc. You're also restricted to 4 potions.

Now, those games are very easy, but they aren't easy because you can abuse healing to a comical degree.
hannibunny2411 said:
Guess someone wants his Review Cooke cancelled and be never invited again but we have a good look at the top of a tower now. It’s literally a cannon
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This makes me think you actually climb into the top to be shot up, so maybe the platform inside is only for going underground?
 
ngpdrew said:
What if you didn't pause to eat food when you take damage?
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Pretty much how I played the game. Not because I'm hardcore and good at games, but because I don't like pausing and I don't like cooking stuff.
I did have a shit ton of fairies and Mipha's Grace active though. I wonder why those aren't complained about


I do think Breath of the Wild should have had a hard mode in which food can only be eaten at fires. Same thing with changing clothes.
 
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Selarmor said:
It's not about not abusing food, it's that abusing food should be an element of gameplay. If you're unable to heal in time and die, it should be because you failed to get enough distance from an enemy or buy enough time through some other means, not because you forgot to push + A A after taking a hit.
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Then let's just say that frankly I (and clearly Nintendo) don’t value your specific ideals for what constitutes good gameplay or reasonable difficulty in this game.

And as I said, it's not like the game literally hands you wins. If you've collected piles of mushrooms and apples and encounter a very hard fight, these only heal you fractions of your life. You'll drain supplies in one go. You need to have accumulated meats, fruits (durians), and cooked them ahead of time - and even then some players can and will run out on a hard encounter. If you find that mechanic too easy, just don’t use it. The game does not give you ample cooked meals, nor does it supply you enough to survive countless difficult fights. These things largely only exist for survivability during hard fights, and you have to do a bit of work to amass a stockpile.

What you're proposing as a change to the game would literally have put off countless players. I don't think you realize how accessible Breath of the Wild was. Those 30+ million copies aren't all core gamers. There's a surprising number of people that only lightly dabble in gaming, yet have played Breath of the Wild. People like my old boss, who only really played Starcraft decades ago; like my sister-in-law, who's only other game might have been Animal Crossing; my wife who only barely tolerated the combat even with this freedom to heal.

And to the complaint that the end of the game is easier than the beginning? I'd say that's right in line with the rest of the game's design - you start with nothing, and work your way to be strong enough to defeat the boss that has been staring you in the face since you stepped out of the shrine of resurrection. The design didn't happen on accident. They clearly wanted you to feel powerful, assuming you put in the effort to get there (fight Lynels, upgrade armors, cook hoards of food, etc.)
 
Selarmor said:
This makes me think you actually climb into the top to be shot up, so maybe the platform inside is only for going underground?
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We see how fast the elevator is moving up in the trailer, that seems like pretty solid evidence that it's going to shoot you up there

I think it's about time to abandon the "towers are entrances to the underground" theory. It had some weight to it before but it's rapidly dwindling now. We'll have to get underground by some other means
 
wonder when’s the next piece of news.

Game will leak soon. Inevitably as always.

But might catch a commercial or something with something new.

Anyways. May 12 will be here soon. So many games to play and so much work at my job. I might not even play it at launch in all honeslty. Which is a good feeling to have.
 
I also wanted they adjusted the health system but it seems that is impossible to have that conversation without reductionisms to absurd and people being mean lol.

For me the solution is simple: two game modes from the start. An easy/normal mode with the current system and a hard mode where you have some restrictions like not being able to heal from the pause menu or limiting a lot the amount of food you can carry.
 
DecoReturns said:
wonder when’s the next piece of news.

Game will leak soon. Inevitably as always.

But might catch a commercial or something with something new.

Anyways. May 12 will be here soon. So many games to play and so much work at my job. I might not even play it at launch in all honeslty. Which is a good feeling to have.
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Any reason to expect anything other than reviews and maybe launch trailer + commercials?

I figured this was it until the final week.
 
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korok said:
I also wanted they adjusted the health system but it seems that is impossible to have that conversation without reductionisms to absurd and people being mean lol.

For me the solution is simple: two game modes from the start. An easy/normal mode with the current system and a hard mode where you have some restrictions like not being able to heal from the pause menu or limiting a lot the amount of food you can carry.
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I've agreed to the idea of a hard mode that includes restrictions. I said that in my first response to all of this.

I though the Master Mode design was rubbish, and I'd welcome some of the recommendations on this topic to be applied there.
 
Zelda discussions are always so interesting because of how open and experience the game is… even though I love cooking as a mechanic generally in other games, I hardly touched it in Botw lol.

I had a similar relationship to “OP” dishes as I did to bottles in Zeldas past since I got them from quest lines and saw them a scarce resource for that reason.
 
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karmitt said:
Then let's just say that frankly I (and clearly Nintendo) don’t value your specific ideals for what constitutes good gameplay or reasonable difficulty in this game.

And as I said, it's not like the game literally hands you wins. If you've collected piles of mushrooms and apples and encounter a very hard fight, these only heal you fractions of your life. You'll drain supplies in one go. You need to have accumulated meats, fruits (durians), and cooked them ahead of time - and even then some players can and will run out on a hard encounter. If you find that mechanic too easy, just don’t use it. The game does not give you ample cooked meals, nor does it supply you enough to survive countless difficult fights. These things largely only exist for survivability during hard fights, and you have to do a bit of work to amass a stockpile.

What you're proposing as a change to the game would literally have put off countless players. I don't think you realize how accessible Breath of the Wild was. Those 30+ million copies aren't all core gamers. There's a surprising number of people that only lightly dabble in gaming, yet have played Breath of the Wild. People like my old boss, who only really played Starcraft decades ago; like my sister-in-law, who's only other game might have been Animal Crossing; my wife who only barely tolerated the combat even with this freedom to heal.

And to the complaint that the end of the game is easier than the beginning? I'd say that's right in line with the rest of the game's design - you start with nothing, and work your way to be strong enough to defeat the boss that has been staring you in the face since you stepped out of the shrine of resurrection. They didn't make these choices on accident. They clearly wanted you to feel powerful, assuming you put in the effort to get there (fight Lynels, upgrade armors, cook hoards of food, etc.)
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I and others have already addressed the "just don't engage with the mechanic" narrative so I'm not going to repeat myself other than to say I reject this "solution".

I'm not proposing that they address this system while making no other changes whatsoever to compensate for the changes. As I've said many times, there's plenty of ways to make the game accessible or provide an easier option for those who need it without relying on a mechanic that trivializes the game and just isn't fun to use.
 
DecoReturns said:
wonder when’s the next piece of news.

Game will leak soon. Inevitably as always.

But might catch a commercial or something with something new.

Anyways. May 12 will be here soon. So many games to play and so much work at my job. I might not even play it at launch in all honeslty. Which is a good feeling to have.
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We're probably about a week or so from leaks, and I'm not expecting too much new info besides those until reviews
 
Selarmor said:
I and others have already addressed the "just don't engage with the mechanic" narrative so I'm not going to repeat myself other than to say I reject this "solution".

I'm not proposing that they address this system while making no other changes whatsoever to compensate for the changes. As I've said many times, there's plenty of ways to make the game accessible or provide an easier option for those who need it without relying on a mechanic that trivializes the game and just isn't fun to use.
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Yep, I shouldn't be the one designing the game.
 
NabiscoFelt said:
Was that in his stream? This is what he says in the article



Which seems to imply that it was the common objective for the demo. Aka the green thing. The unexpected part was the approach
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I had taken that to mean they hadn't seen anyone reach that particular dungeon at all, and also hadn't seen anyone else reach their own destinations that way. But I could definitely be wrong yeah.

I thought his tweets also implied that he shouldn't have gone near that dungeon either way, which would be odd as a rule if there are 4 of them on the first set of islands from the demo.
 
NabiscoFelt said:
We see how fast the elevator is moving up in the trailer, that seems like pretty solid evidence that it's going to shoot you up there

I think it's about time to abandon the "towers are entrances to the underground" theory. It had some weight to it before but it's rapidly dwindling now. We'll have to get underground by some other means
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I mean if we're 1000 meters underground I would expect the ascension to be pretty rapid.

It just seems weird for this to be the starting point of being launched upward:
mt00s1e27cwa1.png


Plus there's the whole thing with the spool that's clearly not attached to Link when he's shot into the sky.
 
Maybe there will be a hard mode with a different food system
 
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balgajo said:
A lot of player are not the self imposed challenge type.
Most will interact with the tools the game gives you and then later discover if the experience was good or not.
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Is it necessarily a self imposed challenge though?
Breath of the Wild is kind of like a buffet. Have what you want. Don't bother with what you don't.
That philosophy extends throughout. Like with the korok seeds. I normally do everything in games, but will happily tell you that I didn't even find half the seeds. And I don't feel bad about that.

I remember watching my sister play the game and she got to Typhlo Ruins. She gave it a go, got lost in the darkness and then killed by some enemies. Then she turned around and headed in the opposite direction, saying, "I don't want to do that". Because that wasn't fun for her.

I didn't bother with food, because that wasn't fun for me. That's what it comes down to.

These games are meant to be fun and we should play them in a way that we enjoy.
If people find themselves engaging with entertainment in a way that is not fun for them, I honestly do think taking a step back and re-evaluating things would be beneficial. I hope that doesn't come across as condescending.
 
Selarmor said:
I'm not proposing that they address this system while making no other changes whatsoever to compensate for the changes. As I've said many times, there's plenty of ways to make the game accessible or provide an easier option for those who need it without relying on a mechanic that trivializes the game and just isn't fun to use.
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The funny thing for me is that TotK already gave us those changes to compensate. We have those smoke mushroom to hide yourself, that new plant to make enemies fight each other, another one to blind them. The game seems to offer plenty of new ways to bypass direct confrontation with enemies in a fun and creative way, so even people who are not heavy on fights will be satisfied.
Now I just want the game to be satisfactory for the people who are more aggressive without having them to self restrain. Specially with all the experience accumulated in BotW that will be easily be reusable in TotK. Most people who will play that sequel are also former BotW players, so it's not like they will start from 0.
The game should obviously allow for newcomers to not be destroyed by the difficulty, but don't forget that most players won't be newcomers (unlike BOTW that created a whole new Zelda fanbase). Even if BotW makes your own character stronger (better gears, life and stamina), I have always seen it as a game based on player skill.
Not saying that you have to actually be highly skilled to finish the game, but that most of the progress is actually not Link becoming stronger, but you, the player.

catonkatonk said:
Breath of the Wild is kind a buffet. Have what you want. Don't bother with what you don't.
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I'm a glutton, I eat everything :p.
 
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Skittzo said:
I had taken that to mean they hadn't seen anyone reach that particular dungeon at all, and also hadn't seen anyone else reach their own destinations that way. But I could definitely be wrong yeah.

I thought his tweets also implied that he shouldn't have gone near that dungeon either way, which would be odd as a rule if there are 4 of them on the first set of islands from the demo.
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Ok all due respect but I do feel like you're stretching here. Really not sure how you're reading it like that. Plus, other previews also make mention of "unlocking" something at the end.

And nothing about those tweets read like he's not supposed to be anywhere near the dungeon. Just that he's not supposed to go in. And the early demo was restricted in terms of where players could go, and we don't have any footage from it, either. Plus, Gene even says later on (actually haven't seen this tweet before now, I think it gets buried since it's the third or fourth tweet in the thread)



Like, maybe I'm way off here and these spiral rocks aren't Shrines or an equivalent. But there's very little evidence supporting that conclusion at the moment, and everything else supporting the opposite

Selarmor said:
I mean if we're 1000 meters underground I would expect the ascension to be pretty rapid.

It just seems weird for this to be the starting point of being launched upward:
mt00s1e27cwa1.png


Plus there's the whole thing with the spool that's clearly not attached to Link when he's shot into the sky.
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Spool thing is certainly interesting, but we haven't seen the scene where this elevator actually shoots you upwards

And that elevator has rails going up. I can't see why this looks weird for an upward launch
 
Homura said:
I think that animation is essentially a masked loading screen, so it's unfortunately necessary.
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Ah yes, they really needed a loading screen to pass a bokoblin platform.

Imo it’s very clearly just there for style and semi realism even if it is tedious
 
Selarmor said:
I and others have already addressed the "just don't engage with the mechanic" narrative so I'm not going to repeat myself other than to say I reject this "solution".

I'm not proposing that they address this system while making no other changes whatsoever to compensate for the changes. As I've said many times, there's plenty of ways to make the game accessible or provide an easier option for those who need it without relying on a mechanic that trivializes the game and just isn't fun to use.
Click to expand...

This all really does feel like a weird parallel to the From Software debate, where people are just told 'there is an easy mode, just invite a friend to beat it for you.'

balgajo said:
Yep, I shouldn't be the one designing the game.
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And you're not. What you're proposing is not an objective improvement of the game, and I don't doubt for a second that these ideas were part of design sessions around combat and the like, and obviously were not chosen. Zelda's combat seems to be in focus a lot, but it all feels like it stems from some players wanting something out of the game that it has no intention of giving them.
 
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On topic. It's probably time for me to go on media blackout for this game. Previews are stepping into showing me just a hair too much. Totally necessary for the game's marketing, but I'm already extremely sold.

Enjoy the next couple weeks all.
 
Magic-Man said:
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Do games typically leak from review copies? Maybe someone will take the risk with a game as big as this, but in my experience as someone who hangs out way too much in recent Nintendo leak threads, it's typically an early retail copy that springs the leak

Is there an example of a game leaking from a review copy recently?
 
NabiscoFelt said:
And that elevator has rails going up. I can't see why this looks weird for an upward launch
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Because the disk you stand on wouldn't be in contact with anything while it goes from the floor to the barrel of the "cannon" above.

Unless there's a metal rod attached to the bottom of it that goes way underground, and it acts like a giant piston.
 
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NabiscoFelt said:
Do games typically leak from review copies? Maybe someone will take the risk with a game as big as this, but in my experience as someone who hangs out way too much in recent Nintendo leak threads, it's typically an early retail copy that springs the leak

Is there an example of a game leaking from a review copy recently?
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oh yes

Nintendo goes nuclear with it
 
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NabiscoFelt said:
Ok all due respect but I do feel like you're stretching here. Really not sure how you're reading it like that. Plus, other previews also make mention of "unlocking" something at the end.

And nothing about those tweets read like he's not supposed to be anywhere near the dungeon. Just that he's not supposed to go in. And the early demo was restricted in terms of where players could go, and we don't have any footage from it, either. Plus, Gene even says later on (actually haven't seen this tweet before now, I think it gets buried since it's the third or fourth tweet in the thread)



Like, maybe I'm way off here and these spiral rocks aren't Shrines or an equivalent. But there's very little evidence supporting that conclusion at the moment, and everything else supporting the opposite


Spool thing is certainly interesting, but we haven't seen the scene where this elevator actually shoots you upwards

And that elevator has rails going up. I can't see why this looks weird for an upward launch
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Oh yeah I hadn't seen that later tweet. I'm definitely wrong in that case. That'll teach me to make assumptions based on only limited preview footage and discussions.

Also regarding the towers I thought someone had mentioned that there may be multiple types of towers in the game, some may take you down and some up.
 
Alright. Just watched Zeltik's video after being gone all day and I am not sure if I should read or watch anything else without feeling too spoiled. My first and only message in this thread!
 
Magic-Man said:
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Shit just started to be real. I don't think it will leak from review copies but you never know. This is warning for everyone as the game will leak either way next week when someone brokes street date.

Makes me wonder, reviewers aren't getting a cartridge but just a code, as for most Switch games these days. How does it work? You can just put out the code into the eShop and it will download? Since the data for the game are now ready on the eShop.
 
Okayge said:
Alright. Just watched Zeltik's video after being gone all day and I am not sure if I should read or watch anything else without feeling too spoiled. My first and only message in this thread!
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People keep saying that is the most spoilery one, but how? I didn't watch it so idk. Didn't he only get to see the same stuff as everyone else? Or is he confirming story stuff based on his speculations?
 
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The only 3D Zelda I can think of that had you "heal in real time" was Skyward Sword, every other one paused the game while you drank the potion or whatever.
 
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