StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

[Apenknul]

Just Dance VR in Ubisoft Forward made me question something very ridiculous perhaps. Just Dance and Among Us are prominent third party games for Nintendo. Both have a VR game of their series, so what if Nintendo does have VR for Switch 2, because they don't wanna miss out on games like Among Us VR and Just Dance VR. Not purely for those games, but have them as an example. + They experimented with 3D in the past on multiple occasions and even Labo VR exists.

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

Just Dance VR in Ubisoft Forward made me question something very ridiculous perhaps. Just Dance and Among Us are prominent third party games for Nintendo. Both have a VR game of their series, so what if Nintendo does have VR for Switch 2, because they don't wanna miss out on games like Among Us VR and Just Dance VR. Not purely for those games, but have them as an example. + They experimented with 3D in the past on multiple occasions and even Labo VR exists.

I mean if they are investing into VR it wouldn’t be because they felt like they were missing out. Rather they feel like there is an untapped market.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

I mean if they are investing into VR it wouldn’t be because they felt like they were missing out. Rather they feel like there is an untapped market.

LABO VR has a great concept of removing the joycon and using it as a controller The screen acts as a VR monitor.What they need to address is finding a replacement for cardboard.

 

[HyruleanKnight]

LABO VR has a great concept of removing the joycon and using it as a controller The screen acts as a VR monitor.What they need to address is finding a replacement for cardboard.

LABO VR was already pushing it in terms of front-load weight, holding it up would get tiring very quickly. Do you think they'll revisit this concept with a larger and potentially heavier Switch 2? Only way I can think of is if they do something like a proper VR accessory like Samsung's GearVR with head straps, but the weight is still a concern.

That said, I think the hype around VR has died down since then, even Sony is having trouble selling through their PSVR2 units and are now trying to support PC. Nintendo would have a hard time selling a first party accessory to a niche VR gaming crowd.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

LABO VR was already pushing it in terms of front-load weight, holding it up would get tiring very quickly. Do you think they'll revisit this concept with a larger and potentially heavier Switch 2? Only way I can think of is if they do something like a proper VR accessory like Samsung's GearVR with head straps, but the weight is still a concern.

That said, I think the hype around VR has died down since then, even Sony is having trouble selling through their PSVR2 units and are now trying to support PC. Nintendo would have a hard time selling a first party accessory to a niche VR gaming crowd.

The weight issue is still tied to battery technology, but I think Nintendo's interest in AR is probably the same as VR. Where I think the LABO VR excels is that it's not a vehicle for any standalone VR device, it's basically made up of everything that makes up the switch itself, so it's different from other VRs.

I'm bullish on the future of LABO VR because I think everything so far including cost including the lagging development of battery technology has led to the fact that standalone VR on its own isn't a good enough product to have mass market prospects, and unifying the components of VR itself with those of a portable console is a very good solution.

I think what LABO VR lacks right now is a "Ring Fit" moment.

 

[HyruleanKnight]

LABO VR excels is that it's not a vehicle for any standalone VR device, it's basically made up of everything that makes up the switch itself, so it's different from other VRs.

This is true. I guess it goes both ways. They will need a killer app to sell with the accessory, kinda like the Wii Zapper which was bundled in with Link's Crossbow Training.

I'm bullish on the future of LABO VR because I think everything so far including cost including the lagging development of battery technology has led to the fact that standalone VR on its own isn't a good enough product to have mass market prospects, and unifying the components of VR itself with those of a portable console is a very good solution.

This. Standalone VR solutions have always been far too expensive on top of being a separate purchase after the main device, hence the low adoption rate. Sony had the best run yet with the PSVR on the PS4, but they're still very small numbers compared to the total PS4 population.

But there is also the argument that hybrid VR applications like Samsung's GearVR and Switch LABO VR are quite inelegant and clunky with poor software support. Hence both this and standalone VR have their own demerits that prevent them from mass adoption.

 

[Discostew]

Something I had thought about, which I'm sure was brought up before, but we've talked about the possibility of BC and how they could go about it. The CPU in the Switch 2 is expected to be 100% compatible, but the GPU isn't (75% of calls compatible, and shaders are incompatible). There's the notion about translation layers for the calls, and either recompiling shaders on-the-fly or downloading compatible shaders. There's the possibility of patches to lift the limits imposed on various games so they can hit Switch's peak 1080p60.

But, what is the possibility of going beyond that, and making them Switch 2 games in digital-only form? What kind of work would it take to convert a Switch game over to Switch 2 on Nintendo's side of things? Not saying anything about using Switch 2's capabilities that Switch does not have, but at most, going beyond 1080p. Maybe even incorporate DLSS for games that already have an opening like the Xenoblade games that use TAA? A physical version of a Switch game could still run on the Switch 2 by means mentioned earlier without an internet connection, but it could be used as a key for a digital Switch 2 version for those with online access.

 

[DEsteves]

Any modifications to the switch games would need to be done by the original developers. If there is BC it should work like with the ps4 -> ps5 the games will run on the upper limits of what they where on the switch 1 (dynamic resolutions should drop less, frame rate hitting the max target etc...)

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I wonder if Nintendo's looking into a feature very similar to Miracast if the Nintendo Switch's successor does use a custom Wi-Fi/Bluetooth chip from Mediatek.

I know there's Mediatek Ultracast, but I don't think Mediatek Ultracast had gaming in mind.

That would be cool.

Would give my switch another usecase

 

[GuardianStalker]

Any modifications to the switch games would need to be done by the original developers. If there is BC will work like with the ps4 -> ps5 the games will run on the upper limits of what they where on the switch 1 (dynamic resolutions should drop less, frame rate hitting the max target etc...)

It would be great if this were the case. It would be even better if we had the option to play the Switch's docked mode in Switch 2 handheld mode.

 

[Thombias]

I think a second iteration of a VR-Kit like the LABO-VR can work out for Nintendo. My only gripes with the LABO-VR were the fact you have to hold the entire headset with attached joy-cons on the switch to your face which gets tiring very quickly.

Let us use the next iteration like a standard VR-headset. The Switch 2 is still the screen, but now the joy-cons are detached and we don't have to hold the entire thing with our hands, only the joy-cons this time. That would work out much better than what they did the first time and they can still cheap out on parts, they just need a headset with straps so it fits on the head, but the entire hardware is still the Switch 2 and the joy-cons that you already have lying around.

 

[IamPeacock]

I believe Nintendo really sees potential in AR/VR, they're one of those few companies who I believe can make unique content for it.
But they'll probably wait until the hardware improves, consolidates and becomes cheaper.

In the meantime, we could see some side efforts like Labo.

 

[godsforgiveme]

Does anyone have a link to that document that was a summary of everything in this thread with general estimations of the final specs of the Switch 2?

Is this the one?

 

[beaglor]

I believe Nintendo really sees potential in AR/VR, they're one of those few companies who I believe can make unique content for it.
But they'll probably wait until the hardware improves, consolidates and becomes cheaper.

In the meantime, we could see some side efforts like Labo.

I think a smart approach would be to have the dock transform into a headset that the screen could slot into, with the joycons as the controller. Either the fock or screen would have a gyro. That's an efficient use of resources for a Labo-like solution. VR right out of the box, no extra hardware.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

I believe Nintendo really sees potential in AR/VR, they're one of those few companies who I believe can make unique content for it.
But they'll probably wait until the hardware improves, consolidates and becomes cheaper.

In the meantime, we could see some side efforts like Labo.

Cheap enough for a solution like LABO, as it doesn't require any additional standalone VR parts.

 

[IamPeacock]

I think a smart approach would be to have the dock transform into a headset that the screen could slot into, with the joycons as the controller. Either the fock or screen would have a gyro. That's an efficient use of resources for a Labo-like solution. VR right out of the box, no extra hardware.

Won't happen, if they value ergonomics and the direction the industry is heading.
XR industry is moving towards very tiny OLED of MicroLED screens, some of which are only a few inches small.
Having a regular big screen in front of your eyes to serve as a VR screen is not the future.

In 5-10 years, Labo will seem prehistoric.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

Won't happen, if they value ergonomics and the direction the industry is heading.
XR industry is moving towards very tiny OLED of MicroLED screens, some of which are only a few inches small.
Having a regular big screen in front of your eyes to serve as a VR screen is not the future.

In 5-10 years, Labo will seem prehistoric.

However standalone VR doesn't have mass market prospects at the moment, and LABO is a great solution that also suits Nintendo.

 

[P4bl0]

Switch to Switch 2 will be like N64 to Gamecube

And Switch 2 to Next-gen will be like Gamecube to Wii with VR being the main thing most likely

My two yens.

 

[Shoulder]

I agree Nintendo does not want to make another 3DS style pricing error, but your frame of reference is off.
I think $399 is the low end of the pricing and $450 is much more likely with $500 being a high outlier price.

@JoshuaJSlone summed it up best with his post here.

I've bookmarked it and will link to it everytime someone suggests anything above $399 is bad. I think $399 was a reasonable price for a Switch Pro ,... in 2022 but we're well past that now. And inflation that happened during COVID has shaped general prices in the economy. A lot of people still think we're in 2019 speculating about Switch Pro.

Keep in mind even if Switch 2 launches at $450 it will be priced competitively with the reduced priced PS5 (digital slim) and still less expensive than the PS5 Slim Disc version at $500. For comparison, Switch OG launched in 2017 priced higher than the PS4 slim.

I read his post, and I use inflation a lot when making comparisons as well, though inflation does not account for any human/psychological factors. There's just something about Nintendo crossing that threshold well above 400 dollars, something they have never done in terms of nominal pricing. And when you combine all main handhelds, and consoles from Nintendo, the numbers are quite interesting.

Adjusted for inflation, the average introductory cost of Nintendo's handhelds from the original Game Boy to the Nintendo 3DS (launch systems) is $160. Very reasonable.

For their consoles adjusted for inflation, the average introductory cost from NES to the Switch (only launch systems) is $417. Part of that though comes down to the NES's really high $520 (adjusted), as well as the SNES's $460. Fun fact, the Nintendo 64 was originally going to be priced at $250 dollars ($498 adjusted), but Nintendo saw real competition from Sony, and Sega, and reduced it to $199 ($398 adjusted). In fairness, the original PSX sold for an eye-watering $299.99 back in 1995, or $615 adjusted, but Sony offered so much for developers, plus CDs were so much cheaper to produce and manufacture, on top of the oodles of storage, it didn't matter at that point. Plus, Nintendo had developers by the scruff of their necks during those days, but that's a whole different conversation.

$450 isn't impossible here for Switch 2, but everyone knows $400 dollars would be a real mic drop. And nothing that I'm seeing really suggests it'll actually cross into $450. Oldpuck earlier provided some comparisons with the Steam Deck + its Dock, which as of right now is $480 if you go for the base model. Though if you consider the base 400 dollar model when it launched in Feb 2022, plus the original $89 introductory price of the Dock several months later, all adjusted for inflation, comes out to almost $537.

So in the span of two years, Valve has cut nearly $60 dollars off the cost of the Steam Deck. And wouldn't be surprised if the Van Gogh APU is the single most expensive component in the Steam Deck, given the potential yields, and economics of scale involved. Valve by comparison to Nintendo are a start-up when it comes to designing hardware. Though it should be stressed heavily the Steam Deck is a fantastic piece of hardware, and a real contender in helping to shape the future of PC Gaming as a whole, especially with SteamOS likely to eventually be downloadable for anyone to install on their own PC like other Linux distros in place of Windows. It is the closest thing I've come across that blends the pick-up-and-play nature of consoles, with the versatility of a PC.

 

[RennanNT]

What kind of work would it take to convert a Switch game over to Switch 2 on Nintendo's side of things? Not saying anything about using Switch 2's capabilities that Switch does not have, but at most, going beyond 1080p. Maybe even incorporate DLSS for games that already have an opening like the Xenoblade games that use TAA? A physical version of a Switch game could still run on the Switch 2 by means mentioned earlier without an internet connection, but it could be used as a key for a digital Switch 2 version for those with online access.

Think of the NVN as a middleman between the game and the hardware. They will accept specific instructions and reply to specific questions.

As they go updating the NVN, new instructions and questions becomes available, some of the old one are advised to not be used anymore and some others will simply stop being accepted. Replacing the later is where the headaches comes from.

How many changes you need to move to NVN2 will depend on the game, the NVN version they're currently on and the effort from Nvidia/Nintendo to keep the same naming, structure, instructions and questions working as much as possible. Effort on documenting how to migrate can speed up things a lot too.

But it's also possible to make an update to NVN which doesn't remove anything and is really simple to update. Patched BC games using new profiles and outputting up to 4K60 shouldn't be that hard to implement IF Nintendo find the dev costs (for the NVN) worth it.

Doing things on BC mode that a Maxwell GPU can't do, like DLSS, is almost certainly not worth it. Even more so when FSR2 exists.

 

[windyoshi]

Is this the one?

Yeah, thanks!

 

[kingman]

Switch to Switch 2 will be like N64 to Gamecube

I think the jump to switch 2 won't be that big, but it will certainly be substantial.

Remember, we went from this:

To this:

Which is honestly really amazing looking back how far we were able to go after only one generation of 3D graphics.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

I think the jump to switch 2 won't be that big, but it will certainly be substantial.

It's just an analogy, no one will ever be able to replicate the giant leaps of the early 3d era again, and we all recognize that the graphics race is on the verge of ending, but I personally think the relationship between switch1 and switch2 is better described by the relationship between fc and sfc. Also I don't agree that Nintendo will simply focus on VR on the next gen after switch2, to me the LABO model just shows that Nintendo wants to make VR a component similar to the Ring Fit parts, and for LABO VR2 the portable console also is its core component.

There's no way Nintendo is going to put their eggs entirely in the VR basket for the next 10 years.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Switch to Drake would be more like Xbox 360 to Series S

 

[Dekuman]

I think the jump to switch 2 won't be that big, but it will certainly be substantial.

Remember, we went from this:

To this:

Which is honestly really amazing looking back how far we were able to go after only one generation of 3D graphics.

SNES > N64 > GC were the 3 biggest leaps.

I think in part because the industry itself was going through a shift. Both SNES/Genesis/TG-16 and consoles designed in the 1980s focused on pulling off the shelf parts and adding a custom chip to do what the mfg wanted to do. The Motorola 68000 in the Genesis was 10 years old by the time Genesis launched in 1989 and was widely adopted by home computers like Atari ST/Amiga as well as arcades at the time.

The SNES CPU design was 6 years old by the time it released and contained a core going back to the 6502 from the 1970s as well.

Starting with the N64, game companies starting adopting bleeding edge, sometimes not yet released chips to their consoles and it contributed to the leaps we saw at the time.

 

[Shoulder]

SNES > N64 > GC were the 3 biggest leaps.

I think in part because the industry itself was going through a shift. Both SNES/Genesis/TG-16 and consoles designed in the 1980s focused on pulling off the shelf parts and adding a custom chip to do what the mfg wanted to do. The Motorola 68000 in the Genesis was 10 years old by the time Genesis launched in 1989 and was widely adopted by home computers like Atari ST/Amiga as well as arcades at the time.

The SNES CPU design was 6 years old by the time it released and contained a core going back to the 6502 from the 1970s as well.

Starting with the N64, game companies starting adopting bleeding edge, sometimes not yet released chips to their consoles and it contributed to the leaps we saw at the time.

Reminds me of this rather old photo:

We’ll never see the leaps we used to see ever again. It’s only when you start skipping generations do you really see the differences now.

And there’s also the factor with resolution, and frame rate, which has slowed that progression in terms of raw fidelity. Had we stuck with 1080p into this decade, we might’ve seen far more progress.

But maybe that’s where things like DLSS can come in…

 

[ILikeFeet]

~ 10 year

from

to

and from this

to

 

[VagrantValmar]

Regarding the price. I'm on the 399 camp.

It just makes more sense for the worldwide audience. Even I, as a hardcore fan, someone that reads Switch 2 rumors and is hyped for the system, will have doubts to pay anything above 400usd. For non-rich countries more than 400usd is just too much of an ask.

Most of these countries are dominated by PS and people are only willing to drop that cash on the PS ecosystem. Be it for status, consumerism, or whatever, but that's how people behave, at least in the Latin American side.

450 not only looks bad but is too much money. And when you could get a used PS5s for like 400usd, like I did or a used Series S for around 240usd, a 450usd (or more, up to 600, due to things being more expensive around here), the purchase just isn't worth it.

400usd looks better. Is a price people are more used to seeing here (it would be like paying for a digital ps5 which is like 500usd new here). I think it would allow the international mass market to more easily consider purchasing it within the first or second year.

 

[kasparov77]

I mean if they are investing into VR it wouldn’t be because they felt like they were missing out. Rather they feel like there is an untapped market.

the untapped market being: fun with vr, rather than vr as a means of achieving higher immersion

 

[Pokemaniac]

Something I had thought about, which I'm sure was brought up before, but we've talked about the possibility of BC and how they could go about it. The CPU in the Switch 2 is expected to be 100% compatible, but the GPU isn't (75% of calls compatible, and shaders are incompatible). There's the notion about translation layers for the calls, and either recompiling shaders on-the-fly or downloading compatible shaders. There's the possibility of patches to lift the limits imposed on various games so they can hit Switch's peak 1080p60.

But, what is the possibility of going beyond that, and making them Switch 2 games in digital-only form? What kind of work would it take to convert a Switch game over to Switch 2 on Nintendo's side of things? Not saying anything about using Switch 2's capabilities that Switch does not have, but at most, going beyond 1080p. Maybe even incorporate DLSS for games that already have an opening like the Xenoblade games that use TAA? A physical version of a Switch game could still run on the Switch 2 by means mentioned earlier without an internet connection, but it could be used as a key for a digital Switch 2 version for those with online access.

In principle, running fully natively on Switch 2 could be achieved in the scope of a patch (and I mean a normal patch, not Xbox's weird redownload the game thing), but that is the minimum amount of work required to go beyond the limits of the existing builds. Most likely any enhancements of the sort will require original developer involvement.

 

[YolkFolk]

~ 10 year

from

to

and from this

to

I don’t think you could have chosen a worse screenshot for BotW haha

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

the untapped market being: fun with vr, rather than vr as a means of achieving higher immersion

That’s kinda how they are treating it currently. The untapped market in this case would be one from a business case.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I don’t think you could have chosen a worse screenshot for BotW haha

I wanted something at least comparable in composition. and image search these days is ultra fucked. looking for a picture of Wind Waker on GCN that didn't look like it was ran through an emulator or upscaled from 16x12 pixels was hard as it is

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

Regarding the price. I'm on the 399 camp.

It just makes more sense for the worldwide audience. Even I, as a hardcore fan, someone that reads Switch 2 rumors and is hyped for the system, will have doubts to pay anything above 400usd. For non-rich countries more than 400usd is just too much of an ask.

Most of these countries are dominated by PS and people are only willing to drop that cash on the PS ecosystem. Be it for status, consumerism, or whatever, but that's how people behave, at least in the Latin American side.

450 not only looks bad but is too much money. And when you could get a used PS5s for like 400usd, like I did or a used Series S for around 240usd, a 450usd (or more, up to 600, due to things being more expensive around here), the purchase just isn't worth it.

400usd looks better. Is a price people are more used to seeing here (it would be like paying for a digital ps5 which is like 500usd new here). I think it would allow the international mass market to more easily consider purchasing it within the first or second year.

The pricing discussion needs to understand that it's impossible for Nintendo to sell a gaming console at a loss, and we simply don't know if $399 will reap enough profit margins on every unit sold on the switch2.

 

[Dekuman]

The pricing discussion needs to understand that it's impossible for Nintendo to sell a gaming console at a loss, and we simply don't know if $399 will reap enough profit margins on every unit sold on the switch2.

I think they can eat small losses and make it up on software

If they sell 10 million +of hardware launch year and keep selling at those levels it won't be a problem. They ran into issues with that model with Wii U because software.volume was very low due to poor hardware sales.

I think the PS5 slim being in the $450 To $500 range raises the likelihood they don't go out at $400. There are negatives to being seen as the cheapest system as well and it hasn't helped Series S.

 

[ziggyrivers]

I think they can eat small losses and make it up on software

If they sell 10 million +of hardware launch year and keep selling at those levels it won't be a problem. They ran into issues with that model with Wii U because software.volume was very low due to poor hardware sales.

I think the PS5 slim being in the $450 To $500 range raises the likelihood they don't go out at $400. There are negatives to being seen as the cheapest system as well and it hasn't helped Series S.

$424.99

 

[Dario]

I think a smart approach would be to have the dock transform into a headset that the screen could slot into, with the joycons as the controller. Either the fock or screen would have a gyro. That's an efficient use of resources for a Labo-like solution. VR right out of the box, no extra hardware.

This IS a great idea! I don't know if it's feasible but let's imagine : It would mean that buying a Switch 2 IS also buying a VR equipment! That could be the New "gimmick" of the console.

Edit : Metroid Prime 4 VR would be a killer app

 

[Concernt]

Regarding the price. I'm on the 399 camp.

It just makes more sense for the worldwide audience. Even I, as a hardcore fan, someone that reads Switch 2 rumors and is hyped for the system, will have doubts to pay anything above 400usd. For non-rich countries more than 400usd is just too much of an ask.

Most of these countries are dominated by PS and people are only willing to drop that cash on the PS ecosystem. Be it for status, consumerism, or whatever, but that's how people behave, at least in the Latin American side.

450 not only looks bad but is too much money. And when you could get a used PS5s for like 400usd, like I did or a used Series S for around 240usd, a 450usd (or more, up to 600, due to things being more expensive around here), the purchase just isn't worth it.

400usd looks better. Is a price people are more used to seeing here (it would be like paying for a digital ps5 which is like 500usd new here). I think it would allow the international mass market to more easily consider purchasing it within the first or second year.

I'm not opposed to regional pricing, so that brings up two "problems":

The tax inclusion means that Japanese and (even moreso) European pricing will look inflated. It's 23% where I live. Nintendo can't just eat that! The exchange rate sure can't!

The worldwide audience will be paying in their local currencies, even the relatively pessimistic on price fully admit that the JPY price will have to be relatively lower.

But the US market isn't a non-rich country. It has higher incomes than many countries but the market in the US consistently displays a much higher degree of price sensitivity.

Countries dependent on the USD in place of a local currencies tend to be either essentially marketed in as part of the US for purposes of product prices, or entirely outside of Nintendo's target market. Places outside North America where you pay in USD over the odds for an imported console are not a target audience, as unfortunate as that might be for the many people in disadvantaged regions who like to play games!

In countries where a $450 pricetag is unachievable for so many people it cannot penetrate the market, a $400 pricetag wouldn't be a salve. Nintendo either has to engage in aggressive regional pricing or simply not launch it there until the price comes down or the country's market develops. This is something they already engage in.

When people bring up USD price expectations, they do so in the context of selling the console in the US without making a loss, ideally, making a profit.

I think $399 is entirely POSSIBLE, but I think it's also true to say $449.99 would make not making a loss easier, while also still undercutting the competition (at least the top two tiers of each's stratified strategy).

 

[Serif]

I think Twilight Princess is a mostly pretty game that shines in interiors or 'manmade' environments like castle town and dungeons. But I never quite vibed with how the overworld looked, aside from the smaller areas like Lake Hylia and Snowpeak.

When looking for BotW screenshots I was just dazzled by how consistently beautiful the game is.

I want 4K patches for BotW/TotK, and I want another Zelda game that gives the Twilight Princess artstyle another go. And I want another Toon Link 3D game. And And And...

I do think the Wii U Zelda tech demo was maybe a bit too 'glossy', but I liked the approach. Would be neat to see how a full open world game could look with it.

 

[Aether]

I think they can eat small losses and make it up on software

If they sell 10 million +of hardware launch year and keep selling at those levels it won't be a problem. They ran into issues with that model with Wii U because software.volume was very low due to poor hardware sales.

I think the PS5 slim being in the $450 To $500 range raises the likelihood they don't go out at $400. There are negatives to being seen as the cheapest system as well and it hasn't helped Series S.

no, there are no negatives being the cheapest system, Series S has other problems (not 4k while being tv bound, that some games work worse, it not being that far of from the "real deal", microsoft not reaching the marked they had in mind (the more causally minded), so if they only reach theyr core audience, those are more interested in the X)

it only is a negative if you not only are the cheapest , but also "feel" like the value is the lowest, people don't like to buy the "entry" product. Those are usually there to give a baseline.

Switch 2 has the huge benefit: only one that plays nintendo games, AND you can play them on the go..while not much behind S in looks (probably). Imho its a huge value if its cheaper then the other consoles.

 

[Concernt]

$424.99

Yeah, odd prices aren't off the table. Nintendo Switch has had "weird" (non-50/100) pricing in Europe since launch.

€329.99
€239.99 (Nearly $300! For a Lite!)
€364.99

Given it's been a huge hit here, they didn't seem to hurt it.

I think $429.99/€479.99/¥56,980 are within the range of reasonable possibilities.

 

[Dekuman]

I think Twilight Princess is a mostly pretty game that shines in interiors or 'manmade' environments like castle town and dungeons. But I never quite vibed with how the overworld looked, aside from the smaller areas like Lake Hylia and Snowpeak.

When looking for BotW screenshots I was just dazzled by how consistently beautiful the game is.

I want 4K patches for BotW/TotK, and I want another Zelda game that gives the Twilight Princess artstyle another go. And I want another Toon Link 3D game. And And And

I do think the Wii U Zelda tech demo was maybe a bit too 'glossy', but I liked the approach. Would be neat to see how a full open world game could look with it.

TP was from that PS2 generation where outside spaces feel like giant rooms with a sky box rather than a true outside space. A lot of games from that era felt like that

There's the proverbial tunnels and narrow passages between wide areas to hide LOD management

Some PS2 games did push the limit however like the zone maps in FFXI were massive for the time. It felt like a giant level map. Still not quite open world but you got the sense of scale because stuff was happening somewhere in the zone you could not see.

 

[Concernt]

Note on regional pricing:

Even with both including sales tax, Nintendo Switch Lite is €110 equivalent cheaper in Japan than the Eurozone.

 

[Hosermess]

This IS a great idea! I don't know if it's feasible but let's imagine : It would mean that buying a Switch 2 IS also buying a VR equipment! That could be the New "gimmick" of the console.

All this talk about the hardware aspect, but I think consolidating their development pipeline from 2 lines into 1 seems to have worked out for Nintendo. So I doubt they are looking (or even able at the moment) to split it up again after only one (hugely successful) generation.

 

[oldpuck]

SNES > N64 > GC were the 3 biggest leaps.

I think in part because the industry itself was going through a shift. Both SNES/Genesis/TG-16 and consoles designed in the 1980s focused on pulling off the shelf parts and adding a custom chip to do what the mfg wanted to do. The Motorola 68000 in the Genesis was 10 years old by the time Genesis launched in 1989 and was widely adopted by home computers like Atari ST/Amiga as well as arcades at the time.

Yeah. The earlier generations were basically defined by large leaps in multiple areas, simultaneously.

Node shrinks were still huge leaps just by themselves. Moore's Law was fully active in the 80s, if you did nothing but ride the node shrink you could expect performance doubling every 18 months.

But we were also still coming up with new ideas and architectures at a crazy rate. There was money and research pouring into a new space - real time graphics - but also the personal computer explosion was still pushing CPU architectures forward.

And we were still learning software techniques too. There is a reason that you seemed to have generational leaps within the generation. The software side of real time graphics was still being learned and developed. You can see that with the guy who has been rebuilding Super Mario 64 using modern techniques. He's pushing vastly more frames and polygons than the original game, on original hardware, just by applying 25 years of software know-how to the thing.

These things were not just additive, they were multiplicative. More transistors meant more room for crazy new hardware designs, which fueled new experimentation with software techniques, which informed the next generation of hardware designs.

That's where this meme of "learning the hardware" comes from. There are still little tricks and optimizations buried inside each console, but for the most part, there isn't the big leaps in software techniques happening over the course of the generation.

Now we live in an era where the movie and television industry (see: Pixar) has already figured out the next generation of software techniques, because they can throw more and more hardware at the problem, and they use the same tools as the game industry (see: Unreal). It's just waiting for the hardware to catch up, and the hardware is limited by node shrinks.

If we still had Moore's Law era shrinks, we'd be into real time path tracing on consoles already. Just as we got rid of 2D acceleration hardware, we'd get rid of current 3D hardware, and just reimplement the visuals (or even emulate it) on top of a GPU made entirely of ray tracing cores. We know how to do it software wise, we even have pretty good architecture designs, there just isn't enough transistors to put it in a device that fits in a computer, much less under your TV.

 

[Dario]

All this talk about the hardware aspect, but I think consolidating their development pipeline from 2 lines into 1 seems to have worked out for Nintendo. So I doubt they are looking (or even able at the moment) to split it up again after only one (hugely successful) generation.

Well I just edited my message saying Metroid Prime 4 VR would be awesome. I don't see this as spliting in 2 lines but as proposing some VR games and VR versions of games on the same piece of hardware. Like they proposed motion control games since the Wii.

 

[Secu]

At present, the VR gaming market is generally quite unsuccessful. As far as I know, Sony has just laid off the team responsible for producing Horizon VR due to low sales of this game. So, I doubt Nintendo's willingness to create separate VR games for a small portion of hardware now.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

At present, the VR gaming market is generally quite unsuccessful. As far as I know, Sony has just laid off the team responsible for producing Horizon VR due to low sales of this game. So, I doubt Nintendo's willingness to create separate VR games for a small portion of hardware now.

I've already argued that Nintendo can't make standalone VR at a huge risk to the market, but they've found a new direction with LABO.

Both standalone VR and PCVR are facing the same problems that the wii encountered back in the day, when the fashionable wind was over and no one need for it.

 

[Secu]

I've already argued that Nintendo can't make standalone VR at a huge risk to the market, but they've found a new direction with LABO.

I didn't see it.

 

[MP!]

Reminds me of this rather old photo:

We’ll never see the leaps we used to see ever again. It’s only when you start skipping generations do you really see the differences now.

And there’s also the factor with resolution, and frame rate, which has slowed that progression in terms of raw fidelity. Had we stuck with 1080p into this decade, we might’ve seen far more progress.

But maybe that’s where things like DLSS can come in…

I think diminishing returns are real... Even though each generation I say things can't get much better and there is SOMETHING that ends up amazing me... It's a lot harder to impress me each time.


However this (really old) picture doesn't exactly represent the way the industry has actually gone (even at the time)... it's sort of misleading.
1. it's only talking about polygons, which a long time ago was a majorly important part of performance, and is basically not a problem anymore.
2. that last model should have the jacket fully modelled for example as well as the bow tie and the hair should be tons of planes, that stuff was happening even in the 360 era, take a look at Assassin's Creed for example.

Edward had a poly count of just under 40,000 for the whole character. And there's a lot more detail in it that the bust in the picture.

Not to mention the realization of new rendering technologies... The returns are diminishing... It's just that we got REALLY good at faking it, (lighting is a good example here) now that hardware has caught up and we can do it a real way (ray tracing) the change is huge technically ... but visually sometimes you have to strain to see the differences.

I think there's still plenty of things that can be improved, things like actual hair, actual fluid simulation, better cloth sim so your character actually is wearing clothes instead of the clothes being skinned to the rig. Better real time volumetrics for fog and clouds and weather stuff. Again we're pretty good at faking this stuff ... I'm excited to see how we tackle these aspects in the future.

Also I hope I didn't trounce your post, just adding to the conversation and pointing out some things I noticed that's all.