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Spoiler The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom - Pre-Release Spoiler Discussion Thread (Tag Story Spoilers)

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I suppose that it could be breaking the barrier, but to me it just seemed like it was spreading the monsters.
I really don't think that it was because of totk, nintendo tries to have a zelda game of sorts most years and skyward sword was the only major 3d zelda without a HD release.
Additionally, even if the islands are skyloft, I severely doubt the A.Rs have anything to do with them, the use Blue energy (perhaps derived from Nayru), are somewhat sentient, use completely different designs and styling compared to traditional zonai bots, and are only found in the Lanayru region, not Faron where the zonai seem to hail from. (Also the A.Rs are all dead and gone and Zonai architecture doesn't exist during Skyward Sword, so its difficult to know how they would have appeared over time)

But the ancient robots were sent to the Lanayru region to mine timeshift stones, I think. They do not need to be located in Faron as well necesseraly, I think.
Mining is also a very prominent theme in TotK, but that might be reaching. The different artstyle is obvious but that's just Zelda games.

But yeah, skyloft not showing any Zonai tech in Skyward Sword might be the biggest problem. Don't really know where I would place the Zonai otherwise though.
 
Maybe she forms kind of time capsules with Zonai tech and that's how we as link can visit the past or some image of it.
Zeltik noted that Link looks very confused in the trailer when stepping into Hyrule castle looking pristine. There are also golden sparks floating around. Maybe some use of the Recall ability (Zelda has the tear that shows the symbol of Recall).
In this case it would make a lot of sense why the localisation team chose the word "recall" for the ability, both to imply the reversed movement and in terms of "to remember"
 
Yeah, the Zora dungeon for sure takes place in the sky, but I wouldn't equate it to a "Mario level". The water bubbles and low gravity jumping come earlier on in the form of sky island set pieces, which lead you to the large structure at the top, which is the actual dungeon.



Even then, these sky islands and the structure at the top are large enough to house interiors. A grated window into one of these interiors is shown below.



So, the dungeon itself is quite big, is themed, will likely have its own music, has proper interiors, a unique boss fight (the tar shark), and has puzzles using special mechanics. I don't see why anyone would have a meltdown (I do understand what you were saying though).

I remember those pictures of a underground area where the ceiling is the water, I cannot place it anywhere else then the zora temple or lake Hylia... What if a single "dungeon" can take place in 3 different layers being scattered all over?

But yeah, skyloft not showing any Zonai tech in Skyward Sword might be the biggest problem. Don't really know where I would place the Zonai otherwise though.
Wasn't Fi kinda high tech Zonai-like now that we've seen more of Zonai...? It even sounded like those weird pitched voices from the trailer.
 
Yeah, the Zora dungeon for sure takes place in the sky, but I wouldn't equate it to a "Mario level". The water bubbles and low gravity jumping come earlier on in the form of sky island set pieces, which lead you to the large structure at the top, which is the actual dungeon.



Even then, these sky islands and the structure at the top are large enough to house interiors. A grated window into one of these interiors is shown below.



So, the dungeon itself is quite big, is themed, will likely have its own music, has proper interiors, a unique boss fight (the tar shark), and has puzzles using special mechanics. I don't see why anyone would have a meltdown (I do understand what you were saying though).

Good analysis. The Zora one looks cool. Rito one I am not convinced is the entire dungeon. I think there's some stuff before Link boards the ships.
 
I remember those pictures of a underground area where the ceiling is the water, I cannot place it anywhere else then the zora temple or lake Hylia... What if a single "dungeon" can take place in 3 different layers being scattered all over?


Wasn't Fi kinda high tech...? It even sounded like those weird pitched voices from the trailer.
I think I know which one you're talking about. It's this one, right?



Call me crazy but I think this entire interior space could fit into that one large sky island I've circled above. It certainly has the verticality for it.
 
I think I know which one you're talking about. It's this one, right?



Call me crazy but I think this entire interior space could fit into that one large sky island I've circled above. It certainly has the verticality for it.

I think you are right. I wonder what that structure is though. Possibly one of the terminals needing to be activated?
 
I am not even sure Rauru is a Zonai...do we know that for sure?

The Zonai must be much older because they probably helped a lot with the building of the sky islands which goes back to Hylia and the first conflict with Demise.
Rauru is definitely Zonai, he's the figure on the mural standing on the bird stone surrounded by 7 tears. His design has all of the same aesthetic features as he Zonai architecture and constructs.

I keep seeing people say this has to connect with Skyward Sword but I don't think there's any hint of a connection here, beyond the gameplay idea of floating islands. TotK is set so far in the future that there's really no way they can connect so directly.

I'm going to put forward a story theory based on absolutely nothing: Goat man (Rauru) was the ancient hero, Basket-chan was the ancient princess, and Ganondorf was Ganondorf. Rauru will probably be friendly to Zelda at first but will betray us in a story twist. He's the true final boss.
Rauru is more of a sage figure IMO, having the owl motif and being names after the Sage of Light from OoT. I don't think he's meant to be analogous to the ancient hero.

Baskets is a bigger question mark. She looks more like the great fairy from TP than anything else to me but I doubt that's intentional.
 
There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

EDIT: Also I now realize that we haven't seen the Gerudo dungeon yet, just the exterior. It seems like they are hiding it as opposed to the rest...
 
i wonder if there will be loading to enter them. I keep going back to skykeep in Skyward Sword where it was much much larger from inside than outside, i hope they are more proportional this time lul.
 
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There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

EDIT: Also I now realize that we haven't seen the Gerudo dungeon yet, just the exterior. It seems like they are hiding it as opposed to the rest...

I would be dissapointed if there's only 4 dungeons again. But I also think there will be other optional ones. Caves and such underground will probably alleviate some of that feeling as well.
 
There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

I think to only have 4 would be a little underwhelming. But it really depends on its size and complexity—if we had 4 major, very large dungeons to get through, each with lots of puzzles to solve and those puzzles are actually stimulating enough (not as easy as most shrines were for example), sprinkled with some fighting sequences and a unique end-boss, then I'd say it's worth. The only gripe I had with BOTW was how similar in architecture and design the divine beasts were. Sure, they had their own mechanics of operating the beasts but those beasts just didn't give me that same feeling of older Zelda dungeons, but that's my personal opinion.

I'm of the opinion there'll be more than just 4, and that the Zelda team really wanted to flesh out the game extra hard to make it very clear that this isn't just a DLC. I also think that while there may be more than 4 dungeons, I think certain ones will be a requirement for story progression, while others may be entirely optional and lead to extra upgrades or abilities
 
I think to only have 4 would be a little underwhelming. But it really depends on its size and complexity—if we had 4 major, very large dungeons to get through, each with lots of puzzles to solve and those puzzles are actually stimulating enough (not as easy as most shrines were for example), sprinkled with some fighting sequences and a unique end-boss, then I'd say it's worth. The only gripe I had with BOTW was how similar in architecture and design the divine beasts were. Sure, they had their own mechanics of operating the beasts but those beasts just didn't give me that same feeling of older Zelda dungeons, but that's my personal opinion.

I'm of the opinion there'll be more than just 4, and that the Zelda team really wanted to flesh out the game extra hard to make it very clear that this isn't just a DLC. I also think that while there may be more than 4 dungeons, I think certain ones will be a requirement for story progression, while others may be entirely optional and lead to extra upgrades or abilities
Good point, maybe only the dungeons with the 4 races are required. You collect their tears for story purposes and then can beat the game.

It does make me wonder though how much effort Nintendo would put into non-story related dungeons. I'd think they would want to create fewer more ambitious ones if it meant everyone got to experience them.

I would be dissapointed if there's only 4 dungeons again. But I also think there will be other optional ones. Caves and such underground will probably alleviate some of that feeling as well.

I wouldn't be disappointed with the number, I think, but I would be disappointed that they follow the same races as before and are roughly located in the same areas of the map.

I would've preferred all new themes and locations for the dungeons, like an overgrown temple in Faron, or a temple of Shadow deep beneath Hryule Castle town.
 
See that i never understand the concern about the Dungeons cause that's really the most easy way for zelda team to add, and 6 year is really really a long development time

What we should really concern is that where are too much stuff inside Totk, too many mechanism (like I not a big fan of creating stuff or any building things
 
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Just an observation and some reminiscing:

In the scene from trailer #3 where Zelda is looking down while Rauru is approaching her, the moment he calls the name "Link" she glows up with familiarity.

Which makes me wonder whether Zelda is indeed in the past and has no clue who all those weird creatures are and doesn't even trust them until Rauru utters the name of Link, there seems to be a 180 degrees turn in attitude immediately. As if she hasn't heard the name in ages.
 
One theory I had is that the underground mirrors the sky. As above so below.

We see some structures in the art book deep underground which have the same aesthetic design as some of the sky islands, notably some of the Zora structures. What if the dungeons each have two sections, one in the sky and one in the deep underground, and you need to do stuff in both areas to complete it?

I think we're missing a large piece of the puzzle still, in that the underground kinda has to be a major focus of the game considering we likely have 15 of those drilling towers leading to it.
 
There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

EDIT: Also I now realize that we haven't seen the Gerudo dungeon yet, just the exterior. It seems like they are hiding it as opposed to the rest...

I'm thinking a bit more than 4 main dungeons (the final dungeon and perhaps one or two specifically focused on the Zonai, though those could be blended). I think we'll also get a fair amount of themed mini-dungeons though like the towers in the sky and the pirate ship in Lurelin
 
If Zelda is the past and she has that time period's version of the Master Sword, will we will able use fuse to combine the present Master Sword with the past Master Sword? Wait, that's what the logo is depicting. I'm so smart.
 
What if the Tar Shark isn't just a shark, but a shapeshifting mass that assumes many forms as we fight it.

I just had a pipe dream of you getting it's healthbar low and it charging Link off the island in a cutscene. As you both fall (it clogs up you flider in the cutscene) you have to finish it off in a skydiving battle before you both hit the ground.

Fuck, I might have overhyped myself for that boss now.

There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

EDIT: Also I now realize that we haven't seen the Gerudo dungeon yet, just the exterior. It seems like they are hiding it as opposed to the rest...

Four story-critical dungeons with epic lead-ins and champion involvement.

Plus at least three or four more random dungeons you can just happen upon while exploring.

That would be ideal for me.

That said, there are six more tears, assuming we get Time in the beginning.
 
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There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

EDIT: Also I now realize that we haven't seen the Gerudo dungeon yet, just the exterior. It seems like they are hiding it as opposed to the rest...


After the last trailer, I think that the game will have 4 main dungeons + 1 final dungeon. The main thing supporting more than 4 dungeons were the 7 tears, but now that we know that Zelda and Ganondorf each have 1 already, I'm doubting that the number of tears correspond to the number of dungeons.

The other thing is that BotW had 4 main dungeons + 1 final dungeon and the game was 50 hours long according to howlongtobeat, which makes BotW by far the longest mainline Zelda. I think people are still thinking of dungeons in terms of the old games. OoT has like 3 child dungeons + 5 adult dungeons + several minidungeons but the game's only 26.5 hours long according to howlongtobeat because OoT has little else to do. TotK having more than dungeons than BotW would probably bloat the game to a length that's beyond pretty much all single player AAA games outside those Persona level JRPG epics.
 
One theory I had is that the underground mirrors the sky. As above so below.

We see some structures in the art book deep underground which have the same aesthetic design as some of the sky islands, notably some of the Zora structures. What if the dungeons each have two sections, one in the sky and one in the deep underground, and you need to do stuff in both areas to complete it?

I think we're missing a large piece of the puzzle still, in that the underground kinda has to be a major focus of the game considering we likely have 15 of those drilling towers leading to it.
This is where I have been leaning for awhile, I think the glyphs on the ground tie into part of the puzzle we are missing and just don’t have enough info about. The glyphs are too much of a prominent feature not to have a large game play loop mechanic tied into with them. We know there are 11 and one of them is basket and Gannon and they have tears mixed into their designs in art book as well. So I really think they will have a large story element to them relating to however the past and the present are handled which I think will involve some type of dungeon type experience for us with each one.
 
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Woops, meant to put this in the other Zelda thread but oh well.
Riju doing Fi style dancing moves is awesome. I liked Urbosa most of the old Champions, but always preferred Riju as she was portrayed a bit more down-to-earth. Riju's design is also an awesome blend of Middle Eastern and Buddhist, a mashup that inspired the modern Gerudo according to Creating A Champion.
Zelda is shown standing outside in the open world with Hyrule landmarks in the background. Unless it's a big trailer edit where none of the dialogue matches with what is shown on screen, then if she were in the same Hyrule as Link, why would Link need to find her? She's not captured but she's in a place can't access and the obvious scenario is that she is in a different time period. When she says "You must find me", I don't think she's saying that because she needs to be rescued but because she has something that Link needs to defeat Ganondorf.

If what Reddit speculation a few pages back is true and she is standing in a structure where the Temple of Time currently is in present day, then this may suggest that this is the place where they can travel between time periods. However, Link's means of traveling through time, the Master Sword, is broken. So he can't open the gate to get to Zelda.

8dc454a69ed12fa8e3575d75739f089cf92f9014.gif


Notice that the Master Sword is glowing, seemingly reacting to the golden glow in front of Link, the same golden glow when Link uses some of his abilities and when Zelda falls. My guess is that one of the main objectives is to repair the Master Sword to access the Gate of Time at the Temple of Time. This will allow Link to go where Zelda is and bring back the power he needs to defeat Ganondorf.
Such a shame the "new landmass opposite to Faron" theory is out of the window again, as Looygi Bros' video was crystal clear on her location being the Temple of Time. Curious how deep the time / dimension hopping goes - wouldn't say no to parts of Hyrule shifting around or having playable Zelda parts in her pocket of Hyrule, but honestly I'm more inclined to think it's limited to narrative.

This story is going to be bonkers - so many moving parts! Curious if they can pull it off (not likely though, Zelda games usually are a mess story-wise - although outliers of excellence like A Link Between Worlds offer hope) .

Loving Goat Guy's Mononoke Forest Spirit look! I hope we get to meet him in-game outside of cutscenes - or maybe even recruit him!
One theory I had is that the underground mirrors the sky. As above so below.

We see some structures in the art book deep underground which have the same aesthetic design as some of the sky islands, notably some of the Zora structures. What if the dungeons each have two sections, one in the sky and one in the deep underground, and you need to do stuff in both areas to complete it?

I think we're missing a large piece of the puzzle still, in that the underground kinda has to be a major focus of the game considering we likely have 15 of those drilling towers leading to it.
I now expect underground to be as big of a focus as skylands in-game. Maybe they focus on the latter in marketing because it's more immediately impressive. Hateno Village is completely themed after the underground after all, with all those mushrooms, and the drilling towers have a similar aesthetic up-close.

I might be even more hyped for the underground at this point...
 
There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

EDIT: Also I now realize that we haven't seen the Gerudo dungeon yet, just the exterior. It seems like they are hiding it as opposed to the rest...

Who calls Majora's Masks dungeons the best? Because they're wrong. Lol

Also I'd be pretty disappointed if there's only four, especially if they're themed around the same races. We should have at least a Sheikah dungeon, and maybe a Korok/Kokiri dungeon.
 
There's a big structure housing the actual dungeon above a path of smaller sky islands, just like with the Water Temple.


The trailer's emphasis on the 4 elements (Wind & Rito, Water & Zora, Fire & Goron, Spirit & Gerudo) for each of the dungeons makes me wonder if we truly are getting just 4 of them again.

If that did happen how would y'all feel about it? Majora's Mask only has 4 dungeons and they are considered by some to be the best. On the other hand, with a world as large as BotW's you'd expect there to be more of them hiding around.

EDIT: Also I now realize that we haven't seen the Gerudo dungeon yet, just the exterior. It seems like they are hiding it as opposed to the rest...

Didn’t we already suspect dungeons based on these themes plus the additional ones with the other tears? I think they just simply haven’t shown them

I wasn’t following it too closely, but did the trailer go against any theories that had sprung out from that hub room/the nazca lines?
 
Who calls Majora's Masks dungeons the best? Because they're wrong. Lol

Also I'd be pretty disappointed if there's only four, especially if they're themed around the same races. We should have at least a Sheikah dungeon, and maybe a Korok/Kokiri dungeon.
In the Art book we see at least 4 possible dungeon styles and the mine cart scene confirms at least one of them. I mentioned glyphs as a possibility as well. I look at it like this, Nintendo showed a few things in the art book but not much in the last trailer and the Art book has a very narrow focus in my opinion and is mostly from the beginning of the game. It doesn’t even show one picture of Hdry Gannondorf or Zelda really for that matter.
So we have already seen probably 4 or 5 possible dungeon themes, which means there will be a lot more because Nintendo isn’t going to spoil everything. I’m sticking with 11 of various sizes.
 
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I don't see how Skyward Sword won't play a great role on this. I can see Zelda learning that her first incarnation was Hylia herself (maybe the other girl is Hylia) and getting back several years in the past just like she was trapped 100 years in the past from Link in SS.

I think it would suck if she "sacrificed" herself once again and was trapped in the past, while we only actually meet her again in the ending where she supports Link with her light to destroy Ganon like in BotW or OoT.

The companions fighting alongside Link make me hopeful Zelda will join him somewhere in the middle of the game, like a "it's actually the beginning" moment.

For now I think the strange girl is Hylia herself, she can go to the present(as seen in the section of her light destroying monsters), Rauru is the original hero, Zelda goes to the past with Rewind to save herself from death on the falling, can't go back for a while and Link has to meet her in the far past or a parallel world. Also think the sky island's might be what was Skyloft. Or it's the past of Skyloft, when Hylia was "alive".
 
Listening to the recent GameXplain video and I think I popped a blood vessel when one of those morons said Nintendo should gate Dunegons behind other Dungeons and shouldn't let you go to the end boss immediately.

Yeah that's a great fucking idea, let's go against the entire design ethos that rejuvenated the series and makes BoTW so easy to pick up and play. Who cares about free form game mechanics, player driven exploration and pacing when you can have an A to Z story shoved down your throat.

Fuck off with that Horseshit.
 
Listening to the recent GameXplain video and I think I popped a blood vessel when one of those morons said Nintendo should gate Dunegons behind other Dungeons and shouldn't let you go to the end boss immediately.

Yeah that's a great fucking idea, let's go against the entire design ethos that rejuvenated the series and makes BoTW so easy to pick up and play. Who cares about free form game mechanics, player driven exploration and pacing when you can have an A to Z story shoved down your throat.

Fuck off with that Horseshit.
People just need to replay Elden Ring and get it out of their system
 
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Listening to the recent GameXplain video and I think I popped a blood vessel when one of those morons said Nintendo should gate Dunegons behind other Dungeons and shouldn't let you go to the end boss immediately.

Yeah that's a great fucking idea, let's go against the entire design ethos that rejuvenated the series and makes BoTW so easy to pick up and play. Who cares about free form game mechanics, player driven exploration and pacing when you can have an A to Z story shoved down your throat.

Fuck off with that Horseshit.
Dungeons having to be done in a certain order is a no-no, but eh, I’m fine if the final boss isn’t accessible from the start. There wasn’t much to that for me in BotW besides it being neat that it was an option

I’d be totally fine if they experimented with putting progression back in TOTK, I think something like completing a dungeon affecting the world would be cool. We’ve already seen the world in various states (labyrinths on the ground vs labyrinths in the sky, some sky islands missing when they’re there in other shots) so I’m not surprised if they do something like that beyond just seeing a new laser in the sky everytime you beat a Divine Beast
 
Dungeons having to be done in a certain order is a no-no, but eh, I’m fine if the final boss isn’t accessible from the start. There wasn’t much to that for me in BotW besides it being neat that it was an option

Eh, I wouldn't have liked BotW remotely as much if I had to do all of the dungeons first. The linear quest chains leading up to the dungeons are pretty much the worst content in the game for, and I just think every aspect of the Goron quest chain is outright bad. I beat the game without seeing two of the dungeons, and only finished those up dozens of hours later.
 
Dungeons having to be done in a certain order is a no-no, but eh, I’m fine if the final boss isn’t accessible from the start. There wasn’t much to that for me in BotW besides it being neat that it was an option
To me, if they take that option away from the player, then no matter whether or not I overall like ToTK more than BoTW, I'll always think of it as a lesser open world game. Even as someone whose favorite Zelda is Wind Waker, the last thing I want is for Nintendo to change directory from this new game design ethos. I already have a dozen classical style Zeldas, give me something that pushes what you started with BoTW even further.

They have expanded the player's mechanical freedom so much that it just feels wrong to put them on a guided path. When they showed the fuse mechanic, everyone on Twitter joked about defeating Ganon with a rock on a stick from the beginning. Why the fuck would you rob us of that joy and freedom? It even goes against the mantra of the player's imagination being the only limit.

I have some faith in the Zelda team to stay dedicated to their design philosophy above everything else. Sure make the dungeons more varied and interesting, add enemy variety, expand the mechanical options, etc. All those things don't go against the spirit of "open air". Making the dungeons mandatory does.
 
Eh, I wouldn't have liked BotW remotely as much if I had to do all of the dungeons first. The linear quest chains leading up to the dungeons are pretty much the worst content in the game for, and I just think every aspect of the Goron quest chain is outright bad. I beat the game without seeing two of the dungeons, and only finished those up dozens of hours later.
Well, a lot of that seems to come down to the quality of the dungeon quests themselves, which have lots of room for improvement here.

I’ve always been a staunch defend of BotW’s extremely open design and the presentation of its story going hand to hand - it couldn’t have been done any other way and it worked extremely well for that game. It was amazing proof of concept like “yes, it can absolutely be done like this”

But the thing is, if every game forward goes like that (being able to go straight to end game from the tutorial) it runs the risk of getting state from a story and game design perspective.

for design, it pretty much necessitates the world remaining in a static state. I think massive world changing implications for doing things would be very cool to experiment with. BotW definitely had a problem with escalation in difficulty as well, even though it tried to get around that with the hidden scaling. BotW was a melancholic game about a world in ruins 100 years after an apocalypse, so keeping everything static worked well for a game like that. But I don’t think every future Zelda game will necessitate that tone.

From a story perspective, it would obviously be contrived as hell to, each time, come up with a reason the final boss will just be sitting on his ass waiting for you the whole game. The justification was perfectly fine in BotW as Zelda holding back this massive force of nature, but even in TOTK, we already have an intelligent, active human villain ready to resume his conquest.

I guess everyone mileage may vary, but for me the essential hallmarks of this new Zelda style are the massive world and the extremely interactive physics and chemistry systems. As long as those stay in place, I’m fine with them experimenting with the structure a bit on a game by game basis.
 
Listening to the recent GameXplain video and I think I popped a blood vessel when one of those morons said Nintendo should gate Dunegons behind other Dungeons and shouldn't let you go to the end boss immediately.

Yeah that's a great fucking idea, let's go against the entire design ethos that rejuvenated the series and makes BoTW so easy to pick up and play. Who cares about free form game mechanics, player driven exploration and pacing when you can have an A to Z story shoved down your throat.

Fuck off with that Horseshit.
They could at least have 4 beginner dungeons that you can complete in any order before completing 4 advanced dungeons in any order, that would be a good compromise, adding somewhat of a difficulty curve and progression, but still giving the player choice.

And I'm almost certain that you won't be able to go straight to the final boss. "Link, I'm not sure you'll be able to stop him", why would the game tell you this if you actually can go straight to Ganondorf and kill him with a meat stick and no armor. My bet is you need the 7 tears and/or repaired master sword. I also think Ganondorf will do something halfway through the story to become rehydrated, rather then becoming hydrated whenever you choose to fight him.

Going to the boss whenever you want worked in breath of the wild because the entire story was in the past. It looks like in totk we might see more of an active story in the present. Plus it would just feel like too much of a repeat of breath of the wild.

It also worked because Calamity Ganon was kind of just a generic evil force, but Ganondorf is a character who has always had a character arc surrounding him in previous games he was in. It would suck if Ganondorf is finally back and instead of witnessing his rise to power throughout the game; we just chose to engage in the final fight with him whenever we wanted.
 
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They could at least have 4 beginner dungeons that you can complete in any order before completing 4 advanced dungeons in any order, that would be a good compromise, adding somewhat of a difficulty curve and progression, but still giving the player choice.

And I'm almost certain that you won't be able to go straight to the final boss. "Link, I'm not sure you'll be able to stop him", why would the game tell you this if you actually can go straight to Ganondorf and kill him with a meat stick and no armor. My bet is you need the 7 tears and/or repaired master sword. I also think Ganondorf will do something halfway through the story to become rehydrated, rather then becoming hydrated whenever you choose to fight him.

Going to the boss whenever you want worked in breath of the wild because the entire story was in the past. It looks like in totk we might see more of an active story in the present. Plus it would just feel like too much of a repeat of breath of the wild.

It also worked because Calamity Ganon was kind of just a generic evil force, but Ganondorf is a character who has always had a character arc surrounding him in previous games he was in. It would suck if Ganondorf is finally back and instead of witnessing his rise to power throughout the game; we just chose to engage in the final fight with him whenever we wanted.
Then just make him obscenely difficult. Or maybe throw in 2 Lynels that accompany him during the fight. Anything, that makes it nearly impossible for a beginner but still doable for an experienced player. This is Nintendo, gamplay comes first. And I'm sure they can invent some reason why you can do it and make it fit.

Like Botw was the first open world game to let you do this since Morrowind back in 2002. 15 fucking years prior. And still nothing has replicated it. I'm willing to accept a certain degree of ordering for the dungeons for difficulty purposes but only if the option to go to the end is always accessible.

Here's an analogy; You walk into a restaurant and they give you two options. 5 cups of the best ice cream in the world followed by the best pizza imaginable. You're options are being forced to eat all the ice cream before being allowed to eat the pizza OR eating as much ice cream as you want, if any, before going ham on the pizza. BotW was the latter and it's hard for me to stomach the former afterwards no matter how good that ice cream is.
 
Then just make him obscenely difficult. Or maybe throw in 2 Lynels that accompany him during the fight. Anything, that makes it nearly impossible for a beginner but still doable for an experienced player. This is Nintendo, gamplay comes first. And I'm sure they can invent some reason why you can do it and make it fit.

Like Botw was the first open world game to let you do this since Morrowind back in 2002. 15 fucking years prior. And still nothing has replicated it. I'm willing to accept a certain degree of ordering for the dungeons for difficulty purposes but only if the option to go to the end is always accessible.

Here's an analogy; You walk into a restaurant and they give you two options. 5 cups of the best ice cream in the world followed by the best pizza imaginable. You're options are being forced to eat all the ice cream before being allowed to eat the pizza OR eating as much ice cream as you want, if any, before going ham on the pizza. BotW was the latter and it's hard for me to stomach the former afterwards no matter how good that ice cream is.

I mean if you want to skip the whole game that badly you could always just not play it and watch the boss fight on youtube

not being able to complete the game 5 minutes in strikes me as such a weird thing to get up in arms about, especially if the alternative would lead to a better story
 
Then just make him obscenely difficult. Or maybe throw in 2 Lynels that accompany him during the fight. Anything, that makes it nearly impossible for a beginner but still doable for an experienced player. This is Nintendo, gamplay comes first. And I'm sure they can invent some reason why you can do it and make it fit.

Like Botw was the first open world game to let you do this since Morrowind back in 2002. 15 fucking years prior. And still nothing has replicated it. I'm willing to accept a certain degree of ordering for the dungeons for difficulty purposes but only if the option to go to the end is always accessible.

Here's an analogy; You walk into a restaurant and they give you two options. 5 cups of the best ice cream in the world followed by the best pizza imaginable. You're options are being forced to eat all the ice cream before being allowed to eat the pizza OR eating as much ice cream as you want, if any, before going ham on the pizza. BotW was the latter and it's hard for me to stomach the former afterwards no matter how good that ice cream is.
I just don't think it's going to happen. Not only would having the boss being obscenely difficult would completely ruin the entire point of being able to access it from the first place, but it would feel like a rehash of botw. It worked well in botw, but there are other ways to give the player freedom without letting them skip the entire game.

I really don't think this game is gonna just tell you "yep, you can go to ganondorf anytime you want" and then a cutscene plays where he rehydrates himself and you fight him. Like I said, it worked in botw because calamity ganon is literally just "evil thing", while Ganondorf is an actual character who can't just go from being a mummy underground to being restored with no explanation.

If that was the case, then the trailers have probably shown us everything there is to this version of Ganondorf already. You find the mummy; he rehydrates; you fight him whenever you want. In my opinion, it's a terrible choice to do Ganondorf like that.. He deserves a character arc that progresses throughout the game like his previous appearances, and that can absolutely still be compatible with botws player-driven open world gameplay.
 
The idea of being able to face the villain from start was a cool gimmick but really limited how the story could be told. No attach to this concept.
 
I mean if you want to skip the whole game that badly you could always just not play it and watch the boss fight on youtube

not being able to complete the game 5 minutes in strikes me as such a weird thing to get up in arms about, especially if the alternative would lead to a better story
Well, a lot of that seems to come down to the quality of the dungeon quests themselves, which have lots of room for improvement here.
This isn't about skipping the whole game or low quality. This is about being able to skip or delay whatever you want and personal preferences/mood.

People who don't like the Koroks can skip the Koroks. People who don't like stealth can skip the stealth parts. People who don't like divine beasts can skip them. And so on.

And for people who like all of it but don't feel like doing some parts of it, they save it for when they feel like doing it.

As someone who has no plans to face the final boss straight away and who will likely do at least 90% of the content before that, being forced to follow arbitrary rails again would remove the very thing which made BotW such a magical game for me.
 
Listening to the recent GameXplain video and I think I popped a blood vessel when one of those morons said Nintendo should gate Dunegons behind other Dungeons and shouldn't let you go to the end boss immediately.

Yeah that's a great fucking idea, let's go against the entire design ethos that rejuvenated the series and makes BoTW so easy to pick up and play. Who cares about free form game mechanics, player driven exploration and pacing when you can have an A to Z story shoved down your throat.

Fuck off with that Horseshit.

Yeah, there is deff a section of the fanbase are slowly demanding that Nintendo 'de BotW-ifies' the Zelda series. First it was "bring dungeons back", which is like, ok fine, now it's turning into "oh but make us do the dungeons before the final boss", which is more 'hmm', next will be "enclose the dungeons and make us do them in a strict order again", "is free exploration really important to Zelda?", "centre each dungeon around a specific item :mad:", and then finally "I want my three hour arrow dungeon, followed by my three hour bomb dungeon, followed by..." and we're back to Twilight Princess again.

There are genuinely some people out there that would have the next Zelda be one giant 80 hour dungeon, with at least 20 of those hours dedicated purely to bombs.

Nintendo should ask Capcom to do another 2D Zelda, if only to keep these people quiet for a few years.
 
4 main dungeons + a final dungeon/Hyrule castle is straight up unacceptable after 6 years of development. BotW pulled that off in 5 years, starting from scratch, while porting the game from Wii U to Switch midway through development.
 
Perhaps the most ridiculous thing about the whole dungeon debate is people insisting that the puzzle design of 'traditional' Zelda dungeons was that much better. Or that the ramp up in complexity within a particular dungeon was well executed most of the time. I'm assuming this is because:
  1. They haven't played an older 3D Zelda game in years.
  2. They are being purposely obtuse.
Just looking at the structure of the dungeons themselves, you really don't lose that much (if anything) by making them non linear as they were in BotW. Most Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword dungeons for example just have a few branching paths with one inexplicably locked until you do the first one. Each one has a few puzzle concepts, but the degree of advancement in complexity is rarely handled well. You'll typically be introduced to the overarching puzzle design concept at the beginning then have to repeat that in slightly more protracted and contrived ways. Rarely did it ever feel like the puzzles were more difficult in terms of raw intellect or thought required. Rather, you'll walk into a room, likely completely disconnected from the others, recognize a mechanic that you've seen before in a more basic form and as such already realize what the end goal is, then spend your time going through the motions. The coveted eureka moment wears thin when it's the same each time, only with more steps. First I put the ball in the slot to open a door, then I had to throw a ball into the slot on a moving platform, then I had to put a ball on a conveyor belt, run around the room fighting off enemies, shoot an arrow to open a door, then pick the ball up and put it in the slot. This is fine puzzle design, but it's not very interesting. It feels like you're performing a series of steps from an instruction book. Compared to the Divine Beasts, you aren't losing much by having a non linear set of separate puzzles with consistent difficulty. Especially when that non-linearity allows for puzzles with different core ideas, making you think and arrive at a different "I know what to do" moment each time.

This probably comes of as overly negative of older Zelda design, but I still think it's generally some of the best out there. I do think that it started to suffer from it's own success. It almost felt like they were just going through the motions with puzzle design.

I am much, much more interested in seeing how they expand on the puzzle concepts introduced in BotW than reverting back to the old style.
 
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I dunno where this idea that there are only 4 dungeons is coming from. Just from the art book we can see a lot more different types of dungeon-like architecture than 4.
 
This isn't about skipping the whole game or low quality. This is about being able to skip or delay whatever you want and personal preferences/mood.

People who don't like the Koroks can skip the Koroks. People who don't like stealth can skip the stealth parts. People who don't like divine beasts can skip them. And so on.

And for people who like all of it but don't feel like doing some parts of it, they save it for when they feel like doing it.

As someone who has no plans to face the final boss straight away and who will likely do at least 90% of the content before that, being forced to follow arbitrary rails again would remove the very thing which made BotW such a magical game for me.

having the freedom to say "i'm bored of this game now time to go fight the final boss" sounds like a VERY poor trade for forcing the world to remain static and severely limiting what can be done with the story to me
 
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I dunno where this idea that there are only 4 dungeons is coming from. Just from the art book we can see a lot more different types of dungeon-like architecture than 4.
The tears are this game's macguffins. There are 7 macguffins. Zelda and Ganondorf each have a macguffin. You get Zelda's at the start, and likely "get" Ganondorf's at the end. That leaves 5, and 4 are clearly associated with the 4 races from BotW. That means 4 or 5 segments where you're accompanied by a hero of each race, beat a boss, and obtain a macguffin. Hence, 4 (or 5) dungeons, plus a final dungeon for Ganondorf.

Some architecture design from an artbook that comes with the game is far less compelling evidence than what this trailer has shown.
 
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