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Pre-Release Super Mario Bros. Wonder — Pre-release Discussion Thread

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Thunder84 said:
This is rather obtuse. Even if the broad strokes are similar, there’s significantly more variety within the world theming. The problem with NSMB wasn’t just that the themes were the same, it’s that each theme remained identical across the entire world. Levels were indistinguishable from one another.

Based on what we’ve seen, there’s a legitimate argument to be made that there’s more variety in World 1 of Wonder alone than the entirety of the early NSMB games.
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So, I'll use a specific example of why I don't think I'm wrong about this.

And granted, I haven't seen that much of the game. So I'm just going off the Nintendo Direct.

Odyssey also had a forest world. But actually, there was a really significant twist on the world theme. That's because most of the level involved you climbing a factory.

So far I don't see this kind of inventiveness with the world theming in SMBW - at least not the worlds based on past biomes.
 
LegendofLex said:
So, I'll use a specific example of why I don't think I'm wrong about this.

And granted, I haven't seen that much of the game. So I'm just going off the Nintendo Direct.

Odyssey also had a forest world. But actually, there was a really significant twist on the world theme. That's because most of the level involved you climbing a factory.

So far I don't see this kind of inventiveness with the world theming in SMBW - at least not the worlds based on past biomes.
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That isn’t really relevant though. What Odyssey did doesn’t change the fact that there’s a lot more diversity in the biome art for Wonder.

2D Mario generally doesn’t ground its gimmicks in the level theme, so highly specific theming doesn’t really amount to much anyway. All it needs is more diversity within the more general themes, and Wonder seems to deliver on that in a way that NSMB rarely did.
 
Thunder84 said:
That isn’t really relevant though. What Odyssey did doesn’t change the fact that there’s a lot more diversity in the biome art for Wonder.

2D Mario generally doesn’t ground its gimmicks in the level theme, so highly specific theming doesn’t really amount to much anyway. All it needs is more diversity within the more general themes, and Wonder seems to deliver on that in a way that NSMB rarely did.
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Plus it has a few entirely new themes as well.
 
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Thunder84 said:
That isn’t really relevant though. What Odyssey did doesn’t change the fact that there’s a lot more diversity in the biome art for Wonder.

2D Mario generally doesn’t ground its gimmicks in the level theme, so highly specific theming doesn’t really amount to much anyway. All it needs is more diversity within the more general themes, and Wonder seems to deliver on that in a way that NSMB rarely did.
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Tbh I do think one of my big problems with the recent 2D Mario games is that they haven't taken the lessons I want them to take from the 3D games. One of those lessons is coming up with more unique level/world themes that provide more opportunities for unique mechanics.
 
I’m late but. M gonna throw my “it’s just nee again” in the ring

Tutorial stage is tutorial stage, same goes for all the level 1’s except Mario worlds which is truly excellent.

We know there is a ton of cool stuff just from trailers like the maw maw stealth level, and the torped riding wonder effect, the wonder effects won’t be apparent in the first couple of levels.
 
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LegendofLex said:
Tbh I do think one of my big problems with the recent 2D Mario games is that they haven't taken the lessons I want them to take from the 3D games. One of those lessons is coming up with more unique level/world themes that provide more opportunities for unique mechanics.
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Honestly I’m not to outspent becuase wonder has knocked it iut of the park

Wonders desert is the best Mario desert wholesale

Same with all the other overdone level theme, it also has new level theme like the desert levels (hopefully an apology for layer cake desert)
 
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LegendofLex said:
Speaking for myself:

No more goal poles

Basic blocks and powerups look and behave radically different (think SMB3 -> SMW)

Back to "the challenge is finishing all the levels" rather than "the challenge is getting all the collectibles" as a difficulty design ethos

No "doo doo" vocal track

Any art style besides 2.5D

World theming as off the wall as Mario Galaxy or Odyssey, rather than rehashed versions of classic Mario biomes

...I'm still really excited for this game though.
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Goal pikas we’re in Mario one

Fire flowers are the same in 1 3 and world

There are still going to be challenging elects but for the msot part I agree

This isn’t even an exclusive to new super Mario bros. The tracks here are much more reliance than of sunshine if anything.

They aren’t goiing to make a big budget game with a pixelated artystyle

Eh form what I’ve seen it comes pretty close, oddyssey creative worlds were massively overblown as it still falls into the Grasslands, desert, forest, beach, lava, snow, world archetypes with a couple unqiue oens thrown in, it’s super creative doesn’t get me wrong but the gold palace here and the food levels , and savannah are all pretty interesting for Mario.

Imo
 
I’d like keys/keyholes to come back. I feel that set up led to more interesting secret exits than finding another flagpole.
 
Mekanos said:
I’d like keys/keyholes to come back. I feel that set up led to more interesting secret exits than finding another flagpole.
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While that set up could lead to more interesting secret exits if you had to carry the key to the keyhole, I'm always surprised that it has to be pointed out that not a single level in SMW actually did that. The key was ALWAYS right next to the keyhole.


Screenshot_2023-10-09_at_11-18-35_Mario_Wonders_Jet_Run_Badge_Is_Wonderfully_Broken.png


No different than if it was just a pipe leading to a different goal pole. In fact it's often a pipe leading to the key and keyhole and finding the pipe is the challenge. They might as well have just made it a magic ball. The only substantive difference between how SMW and NSMB handle secret exits is SMW levels end as soon as you find the keyhole whereas NSMB levels might have extra level before the goal pole.



While the concept could lend itself to interesting exits if you had to carry the key across some distance that's only ever been done in ROMhacks and I'm not sure Nintendo would want to make players do that kind of thing.
 
RagnarokX said:
No different than if it was just a pipe leading to a different goal pole.
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I disagree. Requiring finding a secret pipe means the level layout has to facilitate a specific gap for it that often limits the level design. Whereas keys and keyholes can be put in smaller corners (and often were in SMW) that are less likely to interrupt the level and are a bit more challenging to find at times.
 
Mekanos said:
I disagree. Requiring finding a secret pipe means the level layout has to facilitate a specific gap for it that often limits the level design. Whereas keys and keyholes can be put in smaller corners (and often were in SMW) that are less likely to interrupt the level and are a bit more challenging to find at times.
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The amount of space the key and keyholes take up in even the smallest setup in SMW is still bigger than a hidden pipe.

Screenshot_2023-10-09_at_11-42-33_Mario_Wonders_Jet_Run_Badge_Is_Wonderfully_Broken.png


There is no hidden key room smaller than this, for example.
 
1 minor nitpick is that I do think they could've replaced the flagpole with something different at the end of the levels to spice things up.

The flagpoles honestly feel like an overplayed element now between the "New" series and 3DL/3DW compared to SMB3 and SMW which each had unique end of level challenges whether its the spinning roulette or cutting the tape at the right height.
 
Gartooth said:
1 minor nitpick is that I do think they could've replaced the flagpole with something different at the end of the levels to spice things up.

The flagpoles honestly feel like an overplayed element now between the "New" series and 3DL/3DW compared to SMB3 and SMW which each had unique end of level challenges whether its the spinning roulette or cutting the tape at the right height.
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I agree with your point, though I'd say that the item boxes always felt aesthetically ugly in Super Mario Bros. 3. Also the poles in SMW weren't as interesting as the poles in normal Mario games. They should have just come up with a new idea altogether honestly.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
I agree with your point, though I'd say that the item boxes always felt aesthetically ugly in Super Mario Bros. 3. Also the poles in SMW weren't as interesting as the poles in normal Mario games. They should have just come up with a new idea altogether honestly.
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Yeah I agree it should've been something totally different. I feel like so many level design ideas have already been done about how to reach the top of the flagpole in unique ways that the concept feels played out. Then of course if it's like 3D World and getting top of the flagpole is tied to a collectible, well if you mess it up that means you have to replay the entire level for another chance.
 
Gartooth said:
1 minor nitpick is that I do think they could've replaced the flagpole with something different at the end of the levels to spice things up.

The flagpoles honestly feel like an overplayed element now between the "New" series and 3DL/3DW compared to SMB3 and SMW which each had unique end of level challenges whether its the spinning roulette or cutting the tape at the right height.
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Agreed on this. It actually kind of sticks out to me compared to how much else Wonder has changed. Same ol flagpoles is actually a bit jarring.
 
Gartooth said:
Yeah I agree it should've been something totally different. I feel like so many level design ideas have already been done about how to reach the top of the flagpole in unique ways that the concept feels played out. Then of course if it's like 3D World and getting top of the flagpole is tied to a collectible, well if you mess it up that means you have to replay the entire level for another chance.
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The flagpole also honestly doesn't work well with a game that's all about creativity. In a game all about how many different and unique levels there are, having an eyesore at the very end of your level everytime doesn't make much sense. At least the Super Mario World poles didn't stand out much and didn't feel like they overtook the level theme.
 
At this point, I've accepted that the Goal Pole is just part of the Mario Brand, not just a NSMB nostalgia thing anymore. It's in the 2D games, it's in the 3D games, it's in the movie, it's in theme park ads, it's just Mario at this point. It's as Mario as the basic power up trio or coins or Question Blocks. It would have been cool to see a new Goal - I'm not particularly attached to the 3 and World goals that are more based on precise timing - but the Goal Pole works and it works well.

I will say that this is the first game since the original Super Mario Bros. that actually gives a compelling contextualization for the end of level fort that appears alongside the Goal Pole. Them being the transformed homes of Popplins that you restore makes clearing a level feel just a bit more meaningful beyond just "reaching the goal" - your platforming is actually helping people as you restore the chaos that Castle Bowser wrought across the land. They also work it in mechanically by having the Popplin give you a Wonder Seed for reaching an exit for the first time (something that also gives secret exits extra utility beyond making a new path, too). Even a basic, reused element has a new twist that gives it more of a character and sense of place in the world, and that's neat!
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
At this point, I've accepted that the Goal Pole is just part of the Mario Brand, not just a NSMB nostalgia thing anymore. It's in the 2D games, it's in the 3D games, it's in the movie, it's in theme park ads, it's just Mario at this point. It's as Mario as the basic power up trio or coins or Question Blocks. It would have been cool to see a new Goal - I'm not particularly attached to the 3 and World goals that are more based on precise timing - but the Goal Pole works and it works well.

I will say that this is the first game since the original Super Mario Bros. that actually gives a compelling contextualization for the end of level fort that appears alongside the Goal Pole. Them being the transformed homes of Popplins that you restore makes clearing a level feel just a bit more meaningful beyond just "reaching the goal" - your platforming is actually helping people as you restore the chaos that Castle Bowser wrought across the land. They also work it in mechanically by having the Popplin give you a Wonder Seed for reaching an exit for the first time (something that also gives secret exits extra utility beyond making a new path, too). Even a basic, reused element has a new twist that gives it more of a character and sense of place in the world, and that's neat!
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Yeah, this is where I'm at. It would have been nice to see a new type of goal, but it's pretty clear at this point that Nintendo views the alternative goals in 3 and World as experiments they've decided not to pursue.
 
RagnarokX said:
The amount of space the key and keyholes take up in even the smallest setup in SMW is still bigger than a hidden pipe.

Screenshot_2023-10-09_at_11-42-33_Mario_Wonders_Jet_Run_Badge_Is_Wonderfully_Broken.png


There is no hidden key room smaller than this, for example.
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Personally my issue with this is that I don't consider the NSMB games to be all that interesting when it comes to negative space. Using this secret as an example, it is indeed a small enclosure, but it's also quite literally the only part of this area where this type of secret could exist because nothing in the surrounding vicinity points to the potential of an alternate exit, so you either arbitrarily run up to investigate or you don't.

Part of the issue is the unavoidable format of it all; the fact that these are games designed for big 16:9 screens and 4-player means the game space will always have to be mindful of exhibiting either the full y or x-axis depending on the level. Games like Super Mario World and Donkey Kong Country 2 were predominantly so compelling with secrets because it often times involved having to survey what was beyond your field of view (I like David Sirlin's writeup on this topic where he analyzes the latter game). It's an often unappreciated, if not abstract sense that you could only find secrets by moving beyond what the camera shows, and that you genuinely did not know what awaited around the corners of subtle tells.

You still get glimpses of these in some of the modern games from those series, but I've had a far more memorable time finding concealed stuff in games like Metroid Dread because of it. I am curious how Wonder will fare, especially because the developers said they're consciously highlighting secrets to be a big thing with this game.

As far as the lock and key aspect themselves are concerned, World still had some occasionally minor puzzles at times in order to get the key to the hole, and I think everyone can appreciate something that presentationally differs more from a standard exit, even if it's minor. Makes it feel a bit more special and rewarding to have that instant association.
 
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Magic-Man said:
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Been excited for the game but after watching this it feels like something’s missing. I haven’t played a 2d Mario since Mario world but there’s a frantic feeling to the old games that’s not here. Maybe it’s the music
 
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Slash said:
How are we feeling about the soundtrack so far?
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I love how dynamic it is. The trumpets that play for Elephant Mario, build up with Mario's momentum, the music notes, etc. However, aside from the main theme, nothing has stood out. Granted, I've only heard the music from the ice level, the cake(?) level, and one of the cave themes.
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
At this point, I've accepted that the Goal Pole is just part of the Mario Brand, not just a NSMB nostalgia thing anymore. It's in the 2D games, it's in the 3D games, it's in the movie, it's in theme park ads, it's just Mario at this point. It's as Mario as the basic power up trio or coins or Question Blocks. It would have been cool to see a new Goal - I'm not particularly attached to the 3 and World goals that are more based on precise timing - but the Goal Pole works and it works well.

I will say that this is the first game since the original Super Mario Bros. that actually gives a compelling contextualization for the end of level fort that appears alongside the Goal Pole. Them being the transformed homes of Popplins that you restore makes clearing a level feel just a bit more meaningful beyond just "reaching the goal" - your platforming is actually helping people as you restore the chaos that Castle Bowser wrought across the land. They also work it in mechanically by having the Popplin give you a Wonder Seed for reaching an exit for the first time (something that also gives secret exits extra utility beyond making a new path, too). Even a basic, reused element has a new twist that gives it more of a character and sense of place in the world, and that's neat!
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Outside of 3D Land/3D World(technically Bowser's Fury to an extent), there are no goalpoals in the 3D titles. They're not much of a staple there. And I think the only reason those two had it was only because they were purposefully adhering to the 2D game design philosophy despite being mostly classified as 3D titles.
 
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Played the demo at my local Target today! I liked it, one major complaint though. The base speed is still way too slow. I hate having to hold a button just to have a reasonable speed, especially when it's also the action button for the elephant trunk. Just make the run speed faster Nintendo!
 
Magic-Man said:
Played the demo at my local Target today! I liked it, one major complaint though. The base speed is still way too slow. I hate having to hold a button just to have a reasonable speed, especially when it's also the action button for the elephant trunk. Just make the run speed faster Nintendo!
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Use the run badge
 
Magic-Man said:
Played the demo at my local Target today! I liked it, one major complaint though. The base speed is still way too slow. I hate having to hold a button just to have a reasonable speed, especially when it's also the action button for the elephant trunk. Just make the run speed faster Nintendo!
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But this is how Mario has always been. I think that would be too radical of a change on the basic feel of such an iconic and established franchise.
 
Magic-Man said:
Played the demo at my local Target today! I liked it, one major complaint though. The base speed is still way too slow. I hate having to hold a button just to have a reasonable speed, especially when it's also the action button for the elephant trunk. Just make the run speed faster Nintendo!
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Huh, I honestly thought it was a bit faster than normally from what I played.
 
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I have never been anywhere near this excited for an upcoming 2D Mario

This game looks to be bursting with joy.
 
Raccoon said:
no offense but aren't you like 19

last time one was even coming out you were 8

which I guess is old enough to be excited for a video game but that was so not me lol
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None taken! I’m 21 actually, so I was 10 when NSMBU originally released.

I got into Nintendo as a kid and been a huge fan ever since. I guess it’s fair to say that there’s not much for me to compare this excitement to (within my fandom-lifetime), but I’m hoping to illustrate the point that I’ve never been terribly thrilled about the “New” series and Wonder looks to be turning a new leaf for me.

That being said, this still blows NSMB2, NSMBU, NSMBU Deluxe, and Super Mario Maker 1 & 2 out of the water for me.
 
switchum said:
None taken! I’m 21 actually, so I was 10 when NSMBU originally released.

I got into Nintendo as a kid and been a huge fan ever since. I guess it’s fair to say that there’s not much for me to compare this excitement to (within my fandom-lifetime), but I’m hoping to illustrate the point that I’ve never been terribly thrilled about the “New” series and Wonder looks to be turning a new leaf for me.

That being said, this still blows NSMB2, NSMBU, NSMBU Deluxe, and Super Mario Maker 1 & 2 out of the water for me.
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This hurts my soul. I was older than you are now when NSMBU came out hahaha. God what happened to time. My back hurts.
 
Slash said:
How are we feeling about the soundtrack so far?
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It seems about average for 2D Mario, which frankly has never had a history of really great music in the grand scheme of things. It's better than a lot of recent Nintendo games because it's a more traditional video game soundtrack, but it's nothing special either, and it kind of sounds 20 years out of date. 10 years ago Mario music was 3D World with live instruments, so this makes the Wonder soundtrack seem kind of like an afterthought in comparison. It'll probably be better than NSMBWii/2/U at least.

Also, the "main theme" thing that a lot of platform games seem to find obligatory, where a significant portion of the soundtrack is entirely arrangements of one singular piece in different styles, is a huge pet peeve of mine.

I feel like Yoshi's Story should have put an end to the practice forever because like, it's clear there is just no further you can take it. No matter how creative you are with your arrangements, music is the sum of all its parts, and the underlying composition is one of the more important ones. The same recognizable arrangement of notes simply cannot serve every mood and circumstance equally.

It, like a lot of platformer trends I dislike tbh, can be traced back to Super Mario World. Super Mario World is the original "we only wrote one song" soundtrack, and every subsequent Mario game that so much as has a main theme that gets an athletic variation is following in its footsteps to at least some extent. It hit Yoshi the hardest and most infamously, but it's not limited to Mario World's direct legacy. Some other examples would be Sly 2, Kirby and the Forgotten Land, and Celeste.

I love recurring motifs and all, but in my opinion, if no one ever did this again it would be too soon.
 
Is it just me or does the Game sometimes experience certain slowdowns? Just like for a few frames. Maybe it‘s just the video recordings or the video stream over YouTube though.
 
My initial impression from the demo is it still reads as closer to a NSMBW sequel than the full fresh reboot I feel the series needs, but it's definitely what NSMBU should've been. It'll still probably be the best 2D Mario in ages, but as someone who quickly grew tired of the style of level design they've been doing ever since prioritizing co-op play, I'm not super hyped to get the game right away. Also the fact that it's still using the exact same spin-jump/jump-twirl setup really undermines the whole new animation style, the newness wears off quick and it feels like I'm back playing another Wii/Wii U entry. I gladly would've traded in multiple new power-ups for a bit of retooling of the core mechanics.
 
Stilt Village said:
Also, the "main theme" thing that a lot of platform games seem to find obligatory, where a significant portion of the soundtrack is entirely arrangements of one singular piece in different styles, is a huge pet peeve of mine.
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Absolutely, the Mario World soundtrack is annoyingly monotone. In many ways including this one, Yoshi's Island is the pinnacle of what EPD has done internally in the 2D Platforming space - including the soundtrack. Yoshi's Island already went back on the "one single motif for most of the game" concept, so it's puzzling that they often went back to it afterward.

Having recurring motifs is awesome, but you're going to need more than one :p.

It's a little early to tell for Mario Wonder, I'm hoping that we've mostly heard the main motif and there's plenty of variation beyond that.
 
Ripfeld89 said:
My initial impression from the demo is it still reads as closer to a NSMBW sequel than the full fresh reboot I feel the series needs, but it's definitely what NSMBU should've been. It'll still probably be the best 2D Mario in ages, but as someone who quickly grew tired of the style of level design they've been doing ever since prioritizing co-op play, I'm not super hyped to get the game right away. Also the fact that it's still using the exact same spin-jump/jump-twirl setup really undermines the whole new animation style, the newness wears off quick and it feels like I'm back playing another Wii/Wii U entry. I gladly would've traded in multiple new power-ups for a bit of retooling of the core mechanics.
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Yeah I think visually it‘s more of an evolution than a huge departure.

Like I‘d say while the NSMB games had the visual style of Frutiger Aero (Windows XP/7 co.), Wonder is much more comparable to the aesthetics of our current Zeitgeist: Based on Flat Design, though using subtile gradients and lighting to give everything a bit more depth to have an almost plastic like look.

Nintendo seems to follow current Design Trends in their games and are sometimes even shaping it. They never go back and try to mimic one of their past styles too much, which is sometimes a bit disappointing when you are missing a certain optic.

Gladly, Nintendo never went too much in the flat design direction. Though UI wise some games like Mario Odyssey or Arms felt a bit too bland. The Wonder UI looks amazing!
 
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