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StarTopic Pikmin 4 |ST| In Development and Very Close to Completion
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Tamantayoshi
Bob-omb
I think this game's 87/88 aggregate score is too low, this is one of the best games on switch. Felt the same way about metroid dread a couple years ago.
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Oh, I was just trying to communicate that the Gamecube games (Pikmin 2 especially) probably encapsulate the most moods and complexity that Pikmin has gone for. You can find that same beautiful appreciation of nature in Pikmin 2 as in 3, but you can also find isolation, desperation, dread and just plain weirdness. That's why I posted melancholic tracks from those two games, because I don't find that those tracks are really replicated in future games. I wasn't meaning to imply Pikmin 3 didn't have a good soundtrack, or that it never sounded Pikmineseque. I like Pikmin 3's soundtrack a lot, actually. It also certainly taps into some of the Gamecube weirdness at times, it's just less often.
I don't even really mind having one Pikmin game that is lacking in those elements, honestly. For how much Pikmin's core gameplay has mostly improved thanks to iteration, the series is actually pretty similar to Zelda or 3D Mario, I think, with games that lowkey focus on very different things from one another. The subtext of 3's environments and soundtrack was mostly about an apprecation of nature, I think, and the juxtaposition of Bosses and data logs reminding us how grim or overpowering the Pikmin universe could be was an excellent contrast to that. In that sense, it almost benefited the game because it was surprising when you'd have moments like the Plasma Wraith or the leadup to a boss arena going ambient and focusing on how insignificant you are. But I don't really like the long term consequences, I guess, because 3 allowed 4 to just make Pikmin another homogenized safe series that's too concerned with being clean. It's like they took 3's character writing and cheerier tone and ran with it, but forgot all the ways 3 subverted that.
I'd personally say 3 > 1 > 4 (so far) > 2. As much as I like 2's surface gameplay, the caves are terrible.
I'm blasting through Pikmin 3, what an amazing game. All the rough spots from 1 and specially 2 are gone, the game flows like a charm, though I agree with @AngryAlchemist that it may take a tad too long to introduce all the mechanics, specially when you've already played other games in the series and more or less know what to expect.
Are there any other games like Pikmin, specifically like Pikmin 1? Maybe some unknown indie game?
I do agree with you that caves are contrary to Dandori and that entering one completely destroys everything you have going in the overworld and that may have taken you some time to put into motion, I hate when I have a thing going and I suddenly find a cave at the edge of the map. I don't know if they can be incorporated gracefully into the main gameplay...I'd leave caves in a separate challenge mode and just stick to the overworld for the main story like Pikmin 1 and 3. Or just put them as a completely separate activity of the main story like night expeditions.
Are there any other games like Pikmin, specifically like Pikmin 1? Maybe some unknown indie game?
Lol, I just posted almost the same thing a couple of messages before. Great minds think alike!
I think you may run into memory issues, having to keep both the overworld and the cave in memory at the same time for quick swapping...it could work in Switch 2 if it includes a SSD. Still, I don't know if it would be a good addition: The way caves are currently designed there are very few "down" moments: They're usually not big enough to have to multitask while the other MC travels somewhere, there aren't big distances to transport stuff (and if there are, there are usually shortcuts to get rid of them). Caves are a more "hands-on" activity, so there would be little chance of you having both characters occupied and being able to switch to Dingo outside to do something in the meanwhile. Besides, the whole "time flows differently inside caves" would mess everything up.
I do agree with you that caves are contrary to Dandori and that entering one completely destroys everything you have going in the overworld and that may have taken you some time to put into motion, I hate when I have a thing going and I suddenly find a cave at the edge of the map. I don't know if they can be incorporated gracefully into the main gameplay...I'd leave caves in a separate challenge mode and just stick to the overworld for the main story like Pikmin 1 and 3. Or just put them as a completely separate activity of the main story like night expeditions.
Yup, Dread deserves much more.
Metroid is a series with some real bangers, but Dread tried too much to use music to set the mood and forgot that it should have some motiff, be memorable. and convey what each area is about. Just hear this:
Nothing in Dread comes even close, it's almost background noise in comparison. Dread is an amazing game, but it dropped the ball hard with the music. Hope this is a DKC Returns situation and Mercury Stream redeem themselves with the next one (if they're in fact working on it) like Tropical Freeze did
(Yes, this post is just an excuse to post awesome Metroid music).
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Haha thanks! Also I forgot to respond to your post, but no shame in quitting Pikmin 2. I have no shame in saying it's one of the worst EPD games I've ever played, which is to say it's still 'good', but barely so. Sucks because the surface gameplay is very good (though I can't remember if the puzzles are as good as 2? I think they're good but still a step back, not at the heights of 1 or the very best of 3), but the caves are bad.Lol, I just posted almost the same thing a couple of messages before. Great minds think alike!
Something that didn't dawn on me till a Pikmin 3 replay is that, uh, Pikmin 3 does have caves. It's kind of funny when you think about it, Pikmin 3 has caves that near seamlessly connect with the rest of the level, and Pikmin 1 has an entire level that takes place in a cave. At this point "caves" are so associated with Pikmin 2's implementation that I feel like people forget the other games technically have them. I know they're not the same but, I'm not sure 2's concept was that great to begin with. I kind of wish they'd just go back to how 3 did it, and just made it more complex / a bigger part of the game. I really like how it felt like part of the level in 3, whereas I've always felt 2 and 4's abstraction in its cave themes never really fit with how atmospheric Pikmin is.
I think the main problems with Pikmin 2's caves are the procedural generation and the randomness:
- Procedural generation creates simple layouts that will never be as interesting as a manually authored design. 4 is proof of this: The caves in 4 are alright and they even provide a nice change of pace; Their problem is that this change of pace clashes too much with what the game is trying to do in the overworld.
- Randomness is a core component of procedural generation. The problem is that, in a game that's all about the player making plans, throwing in random elements that can irreversely destroy these plans goes against everything the series stands for. There were many situations in 2 were I was punished hard for trying to optimize a plan after carefully checking everything.
Ohhhh I hadn't thought about it that way, you're totally right! Caves can be a small, independent puzzle, so in that regard it's true that Pikmin 3 features them. And most of them are reached through tunnels with a fade to black transition, so just put a cutscene entering the cave and it's 100% a cave. Only difference would be that some/most of them have a separate exit, but that's a minor detail.
I think that the decision of not putting the caves in 4 into the overworld like in 3 may have been deliberate: Switch is a handheld, so maybe this was a way to put bite-sized chunks of gameplay for shorter sessions. Like Shrines in BotW and TotK. Maybe that's also why they're much shorter than the caves in Pikmin 2.
I saw the credits roll last friday and now I'm busy with some of the post-game. I loved the game. I wasn´t sure of picking it up because I played the Pikmin 3 Deluxe demo and I didn't enjoy the prominent strategic component the game seemed to have, but I really liked the rest. Now with 4, I appreciated the more laid-back gameplay and relaxed rythmn. It's one of those games that just feels so good to play. I understand that veterans of the series might feel a bit uncomfortable with the streamlining and the lack of difficulty, but as a first-timer in the series, I'm quite sure I prefer this approach better.
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Check The Wild At Heart, it's the most Pikmin-like game I know so far and I had a great time with it. Not the same feeling as you play it but the mechanics definitely are very close to Pikmin's. Also you have a sorta-vacuum like Luigi's Mansion, that's cool.
Also I already talked about Tinykin which is often brought to the table when we talk about Pikmin-like, and since you have all these minions with different abilities with you, I couldn't say it's not heavily Pikmin inspired, but as I said last time remember this is more of a collectathon platformer than a real time strategy treasures collecting game. But I would recommend you to check this one too!
I don’t really agree with this caves sentiment. 1 and 3 have indoor environments, but “caves” as they are implemented in 2 and 4 are explicitly separate areas where time is much less a concern. The caves in 2 stop the clock completely and you can go start one when the timer is about to hit 0 and spend the next hour running through it. Then it dumps you back out in front of your ship. In 4 they’re almost like checkpoints where time moves slower but you can never run out of time while in one. When you enter and exit you basically get a reset to your Pikmin setup which is great since you can leave Pikmin wherever and then enter a cave without having to worry about getting them. 1 and 3 work nothing like that. In 3 they’re a clear continuation of the rest of the map and seamlessly transition from one spot to another. They also make sense in the context of where they are whereas 4 can be completely random environments compared to where you dove into them.
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I basically said what you just said word for word in the reply you're quoting ...
Whole point was that it's funny that the series has become known for only having caves in 2 games, when all 4 games have them, it's just that caves as a Pikmin 2-like feature is only in 2 games. Which I'm not sure was a great feature to begin with. I mean I even mention the abstraction of cave themes. We basically wrote the same thing.
The second part I’ll give you but the change in how the time functions feels like a major distinction that feels like the whole point of the caves in 2 and 4. I guess I didn’t take people saying “caves are back!” To mean they were happy about indoor environments so much as all the other things it does differently.
Stilt Village
GBA
In the past I've described the problem with Pikmin 2's caves as jury-rigging a resource management game onto a time management game. Nothing about Pikmin's gameplay is particularly geared towards this. The Pikmin are a resource you need to be mindful of, but only because poor use of them costs time, which is truly finite and valuable.
In 1 you have infinite Pikmin so long as you have enough time, and in 2 you have infinite time so long as you have enough Pikmin. The caves are defined by the fact that they limit you only to what you brought in with you. This makes them inclined to be endurance challenges with the goal of killing you outright, rather than concentrating the difficulty more in proper planning to overcome obstacles efficiently, and so the cave meta just naturally becomes leaving your Pikmin at the start of the sublevel and running around punching everything to death and triggering all the traps you can before even thinking about putting your squad in harm's way. This, of course, is not fun.
Cheap as these mystery dungeon-ass levels were, they did do one very important thing for Pikmin back then. It's important to remember that for a very long time, Pikmin 2 was by far the largest Pikmin game, and it was the only one to have the Piklopedia. It's the game that gave Pikmin a whole fleshed out world and let you take the time to really appreciate it, and the change in structure and focus is why. The reduction in scope is possibly the single most common complaint with 3, but there's only so long you can reasonably make a game with a hard time limit meant to be replayed and perfected.
4 identified the need to compromise on this front if Pikmin games were ever to be any bigger, but was probably too uncreative about it. Giving caves actual level design and at least paying lip service to the idea of time passing helps, but I'm not sure why the concept was brought back at all besides it being the only precedent we had for a larger Pikmin game. Now that they require bespoke level design, it's difficult to say what is actually being gained from this approach specifically over just having more areas to explore. The cave sublevels are sort of more focused challenges than the overworld offers, but that mostly just means they resemble traditional Pikmin levels a bit more than a lot of the kind of aimless overworld areas in this one. I can't tell if that was a purposeful division or not, but if it was, no thanks.
I would have preferred something that played into the time mechanics rather than bringing back something designed to sidestep them (it still kind of does, if you enter just before sunset time won't pass at all). By all means, have a game with infinite days again, but give more specific time goals to reach. Have changing weather, changing seasons, migrational patterns, something like that. Things to instill a sense of urgency or satisfaction upon reaching a self-imposed goal, cyclical things you can punish a player for missing without just resorting to a game over. Might have said it before, but kind of like the famous "imagine a bus" Mario speedrun analogy.
Instead of caves, have smaller areas like past games and 5-10 more of them, or have 5 or so much larger areas with multiple landing sites to discover. Not for the purpose of constantly moving your base around to be closer to the action like in this game, but because the area is so huge you need to be able to choose where to work from.
In 1 you have infinite Pikmin so long as you have enough time, and in 2 you have infinite time so long as you have enough Pikmin. The caves are defined by the fact that they limit you only to what you brought in with you. This makes them inclined to be endurance challenges with the goal of killing you outright, rather than concentrating the difficulty more in proper planning to overcome obstacles efficiently, and so the cave meta just naturally becomes leaving your Pikmin at the start of the sublevel and running around punching everything to death and triggering all the traps you can before even thinking about putting your squad in harm's way. This, of course, is not fun.
Cheap as these mystery dungeon-ass levels were, they did do one very important thing for Pikmin back then. It's important to remember that for a very long time, Pikmin 2 was by far the largest Pikmin game, and it was the only one to have the Piklopedia. It's the game that gave Pikmin a whole fleshed out world and let you take the time to really appreciate it, and the change in structure and focus is why. The reduction in scope is possibly the single most common complaint with 3, but there's only so long you can reasonably make a game with a hard time limit meant to be replayed and perfected.
4 identified the need to compromise on this front if Pikmin games were ever to be any bigger, but was probably too uncreative about it. Giving caves actual level design and at least paying lip service to the idea of time passing helps, but I'm not sure why the concept was brought back at all besides it being the only precedent we had for a larger Pikmin game. Now that they require bespoke level design, it's difficult to say what is actually being gained from this approach specifically over just having more areas to explore. The cave sublevels are sort of more focused challenges than the overworld offers, but that mostly just means they resemble traditional Pikmin levels a bit more than a lot of the kind of aimless overworld areas in this one. I can't tell if that was a purposeful division or not, but if it was, no thanks.
I would have preferred something that played into the time mechanics rather than bringing back something designed to sidestep them (it still kind of does, if you enter just before sunset time won't pass at all). By all means, have a game with infinite days again, but give more specific time goals to reach. Have changing weather, changing seasons, migrational patterns, something like that. Things to instill a sense of urgency or satisfaction upon reaching a self-imposed goal, cyclical things you can punish a player for missing without just resorting to a game over. Might have said it before, but kind of like the famous "imagine a bus" Mario speedrun analogy.
Instead of caves, have smaller areas like past games and 5-10 more of them, or have 5 or so much larger areas with multiple landing sites to discover. Not for the purpose of constantly moving your base around to be closer to the action like in this game, but because the area is so huge you need to be able to choose where to work from.
In addition to the ones already mentioned, there's also the old cult classic Wii game Little King's Story, which is available on Steam these days. I can't say which specific Pikmin game it might resemble most, but I have played a bit of it in the past and definitely remember it hitting a similar vibe of cutesy yet very weird and slightly dark/unsettling. Instead of Pikmin, you order around a mob of your citizens and give them different jobs as they work and fight and die for you, which is kind of saying the quiet part out loud.
Ironically, all of those Metroid tracks are from the DKC Returns composer.Hope this is a DKC Returns situation and Mercury Stream redeem themselves with the next one (if they're in fact working on it) like Tropical Freeze did
(Yes, this post is just an excuse to post awesome Metroid music).
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There's nothing to "give" though, I wasn't making some ground point about how the use of caves in 1 or 3 is underappreciated. Or that they had the same feature. I was pointing out that it's kind of funny how caves have become so synonymous with the Pikmin 2 feature that people only associate 2 and 4 with having caves. I already know the Pikmin 2 feature is very popular and that the reason people were hyped for caves in 4 wasn't just because of indoor environments but because of the feature from 2 returning. That wasn't what I was saying, I don't know how you get that, it was an amusing observation.
SpaceGodzilla
Did You Get that Thing I Sent You?
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Not bothering to @ everyone for the Pikmin 2 slander because my cup runneth over.
The caves offer a different, equally valid variant of Pikmin. The series was exactly one game old at that point, so it's silly to say that Pikmin 2 was some crazy divergence for the franchise. Pikmin 1 went really hard on time management, kind of. It's ultimately pretty superficial because it's tough not to get enough parts in 30 days. It also really turned a lot of people off, thus Pikmin 2 naturally walked some of that back.
Pikmin 2 offers variety. The time management elements return, though they admittedly walked them back pretty severely by limiting the amount of content in the overworld areas. The caves focus more on combat, which the first game didn't explore nearly as much. In Pikmin 1, you manage time. In Pikmin 2, you manage units. Both are valid, and neither is more quintessentially Pikmin.
Many of the complaints about Pikmin 2 boil down to taste. Maybe you don't like the procedural generation (which is really pretty limited as it mostly just adjusts layout, not the number of enemies or treasures). That's fine! Maybe the "randomness" frustrates you. Granted, those obstacles are typically something you can scout out and/or plan around. But, hey, they aren't everyone's cup of tea.
It's a hard game. It's not for everyone! That's cool. It's just as much of a Pikmin game, though, and a few creative choices don't make it any less so. I find it a little frustrating that these are interpreted as "bad" choices. Don't forget that this is still the most critically acclaimed game in the franchise!
The caves offer a different, equally valid variant of Pikmin. The series was exactly one game old at that point, so it's silly to say that Pikmin 2 was some crazy divergence for the franchise. Pikmin 1 went really hard on time management, kind of. It's ultimately pretty superficial because it's tough not to get enough parts in 30 days. It also really turned a lot of people off, thus Pikmin 2 naturally walked some of that back.
Pikmin 2 offers variety. The time management elements return, though they admittedly walked them back pretty severely by limiting the amount of content in the overworld areas. The caves focus more on combat, which the first game didn't explore nearly as much. In Pikmin 1, you manage time. In Pikmin 2, you manage units. Both are valid, and neither is more quintessentially Pikmin.
Many of the complaints about Pikmin 2 boil down to taste. Maybe you don't like the procedural generation (which is really pretty limited as it mostly just adjusts layout, not the number of enemies or treasures). That's fine! Maybe the "randomness" frustrates you. Granted, those obstacles are typically something you can scout out and/or plan around. But, hey, they aren't everyone's cup of tea.
It's a hard game. It's not for everyone! That's cool. It's just as much of a Pikmin game, though, and a few creative choices don't make it any less so. I find it a little frustrating that these are interpreted as "bad" choices. Don't forget that this is still the most critically acclaimed game in the franchise!
You're right, those are big differences. My point however was that, if you understand caves as separate puzzles/challenges from the overworld, then instances of that are also present in 3. Meaning that it's not just a seamless overworld like 1 where, even if the map is composed of independent puzzles, they are all related because the way you reach them and how you transport the treasure back to the ship are all linked through the overworld. The overworld can directly affect those seemingly independent puzzles by requiring that you use fire Pikmin to reach where the puzzle is, or forcing you through a watery path on the way back so you have to use blue Pikmin, while the puzzle itself requires yellow Pikmin. However in 3, there are a lot of challenges that are self-contained, separated from the main part of the overworld through a tunnel and, once you've cleared the path (which is something you usually do to reach this "cave") they're their own independent challenge separated from the overworld like caves in 2 and 4.
But you're right, there are still many differences with caves in 2.
This is a very good way to put it, completely agree with all of this.
I'm starting to see Pikmin levels like Zelda dungeons: A lot of small, independent puzzles (how you get the treasure) in a greater layout that is also a bigger puzzle (opening the paths/creating shortcuts), with the added ingredient of time management, so you can't just explore everything forever but you need to strategize a bit. In that regard, I think adding more landing sites could be a way to alter this bigger puzzle and making each are more distinct. You can have a medium-sized area with just one landing site, a big area comprised of 2 smaller semi-isolated areas with 2 landing sites, a single huge area with 3 landing sites...just like how in Zelda dungeons the main puzzle plays a big part in defining the identity of the dungeon.
Thanks, I'll check it out!
I didn't know that! BTW, I wasn't throwing any shade to the DKC Returns music, it's just that Tropical Freeze's is sooo good it seemed like a good example of the kind of improvement I wish to have between Metroid Dread and the next one.
One thing I imagined while playing Pikmin 1, is that the game could change the deadline if you were doing too well. Just put a cutscene saying that Olimar's suit has been damaged in battle and now you have 5 days less or something. The number of days is something that could be dynamically estimated with how well the player has been doing.
I do think that some of the choices done in caves, are bad design choices. @Stilt Village summarized it perfectly:
This is my main gripe with caves, that the playstyle they propose is not fun. Usually games try to teach you the way the developers intend you to play them, because they've spent years fine-tuning that desired playstyle and they think it's fun. But I don't think that the developers were aiming for players to leave all of their Pikmin at the base and explore the cave with Olimar alone.
I'm OK with caves proposing a different playstyle from the overworld or Pikmin1; In 4 you have caves, dandori challenges, battles and night expeditions, they're absolutely fine and I don't think less of any of them for not being like Pikmin1. They advocate for different playstyles all based on the Pikmin mechanics and they're all fun in different ways.
And I'm also not saying that Pikmin 2 is a bad game, by any means!
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Pikmin 2 is a great game and absolutely a valid Pikmin game, but being the most critically acclaimed game in the franchise (a point I think is a bit irrelevent given
the changing state of games criticism from 2004 to 2013 to now, and the relatively tiny gap that covers all four mainline games) doesn't make it immune to critiques about its design. People thinking some creative choices are bad are fine and, as you mentioned about other issues, boil down to taste as well so I don't think it's anything to get frustrated about. It's just different people having different opinions.
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I don't agree with that user's post even a little. Running around punching enemies with a captain is by no means the optimal strategy, and the user is making their own experience worse by choosing that route. The only reason you would do that is if you are dead set on losing 0 Pikmin, which is a personal choice you made (and not one really encouraged by the developers).
I have no issues with anyone not liking the game or the caves, but I think arguments like that are disingenuous. It isn't the game's fault if the player elects to have a bad time trying to adhere to a hardcore playstyle.
I said as much. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just take issue with the statements claiming that elements they don't like are "bad design". It's a common element of online discourse that I don't particularly enjoy.
And yeah, the critic thing is whatever. Obviously a Metascore from 2003 is meaningless today; I was just trying to underscore that clearly the game has merits, or at the very least it was perceived to have them.
Stopdoor
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I love Pikmin 2 but I feel like by saying "it's just as much a Pikmin game" sidesteps the objective criticism that Pikmin 2 actively hurts the "Dandori" Nintendo now is trying to emphasize as being core to Pikmin's fun and is so obvious to see in the first game. The caves do offer their own fun, but the the 100 Pikmin thing just works so innately well at a design level to exploit the joy of multi-tasking and efficiency that anything that hurts that is hard to stomach. The design of caves as has been brought up actively chafes against the the overworld with how activities need to be called off, time semi-paused in a opaque way, and so it's easy to see that it's the real threat to what people like about "Dandori". It's not just additive design, it's compromising, and the Dandori seems to be in an existential battle against people who just want to chill and not feel some tension means you're gonna get people not content to just say "well, everyone likes what they like".
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The game offers plenty of "Dandori", both in its overworld and in its challenges. Furthermore, Dandori as a philosophy isn't restricted to having a time limit on your activities; it is the pursuit of efficiency and organization for the sake of efficiency and organization. Certainly some folks need a deadline hanging over their head to make them embrace "Dandori", but for others you can embrace the practice no matter the circumstances.
Stopdoor
????
Yeah, it offers it, but offers it worse than Pikmin 1 & 3. I don't actually think a deadline is necessary tbh - the day count is actually the genius of the design imo, because it makes Pikmin games kind of like "baby's first speedrun" - you can measure your run purely in day chunks instead of getting down to the microsecond, making it much more approachable to challenge yourself to beat your record. Unfortunately, Pikmin 4 even more than 2 makes this factor feel even more compromised with all the hub fluff, the night missions factoring in, as well as the caves. It's hard to imagine replaying it because it's just too bloated. Olimar's Shipwreck Tale is a beautiful olive branch for people like me and I appreciate it, but it's a little too small scale unfortunately.
I think Pikmin 1 and 3 are just much cleaner a design, and as some people have said it feels like the challenge of caves could be folded more into the main game naturally so I don't see the need for them to so closely follow a Pikmin 2 template to incorporate that. Caves would make a better challenge mode really, fully divorced from the main game Dandori. They pretty much already are divorced which is why it's so awkward as it is. Offering to remix your Pikmin counts before and after feel like a direct admission it doesn't really gel.
Anyway, sorry, I know we're probably not going to convince each other of anything. It's just painful to love a series where the core appeal (the full game Dandori) feels under threat, I think. It drives more passionate opinions. I'm afraid we might never get something quite as pure as Pikmin 1 & 3 again
Enough fighting! Start competing!
I started a thread for Dandori challenge times if people missed it and want to see how their scores compare to others here.
famiboards.com
I started a thread for Dandori challenge times if people missed it and want to see how their scores compare to others here.
Dandori Challenge Hi-Scores
Alright everyone. Pikmin 4 is out and some of us may have gobbled it up so quick we want some new challenges. Pikmin 3 had hi scores and nice charts showing how you did a challenge compared to everybody else. But for some reason not Pikmin 4. So let’s see those Dandori Challenge Hi Scores...
famiboards.com
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All fair points. At the end of the day, if they cut caves or replace caves...hey, at least they're still making Pikmin.Yeah, it offers it, but offers it worse than Pikmin 1 & 3. I don't actually think a deadline is necessary tbh - the day count is actually the genius of the design imo, because it makes Pikmin games kind of like "baby's first speedrun" - you can measure your run purely in day chunks instead of getting down to the microsecond, making it much more approachable to challenge yourself to beat your record. Unfortunately, Pikmin 4 even more than 2 makes this factor feel even more compromised with all the hub fluff, the night missions factoring in, as well as the caves. It's hard to imagine replaying it because it's just too bloated. Olimar's Shipwreck Tale is a beautiful olive branch for people like me and I appreciate it, but it's a little too small scale unfortunately.
I think Pikmin 1 and 3 are just much cleaner a design, and as some people have said it feels like the challenge of caves could be folded more into the main game naturally so I don't see the need for them to so closely follow a Pikmin 2 template to incorporate that. Caves would make a better challenge mode really, fully divorced from the main game Dandori. They pretty much already are divorced which is why it's so awkward as it is. Offering to remix your Pikmin counts before and after feel like a direct admission it doesn't really gel.
Anyway, sorry, I know we're probably not going to convince each other of anything. It's just painful to love a series where the core appeal (the full game Dandori) feels under threat, I think. It drives more passionate opinions. I'm afraid we might never get something quite as pure as Pikmin 1 & 3 again
JorgenRaft
Chain Chomp
If we end up getting Dandori map DLC, I hope we get some above ground stages.
SpaceGodzilla
Did You Get that Thing I Sent You?
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Metroid is a series with some real bangers, but Dread tried too much to use music to set the mood and forgot that it should have some motiff, be memorable. and convey what each area is about. Just hear this:
Nothing in Dread comes even close, it's almost background noise in comparison. Dread is an amazing game, but it dropped the ball hard with the music. Hope this is a DKC Returns situation and Mercury Stream redeem themselves with the next one (if they're in fact working on it) like Tropical Freeze did
(Yes, this post is just an excuse to post awesome Metroid music).
personally i would say dread was a reverse tropical freeze because i really liked Samus returns soundtrack, especially the boss music
Thunder84
Gerudo
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Count me in the camp that would rather have caves set as their own expedition type. Attaching them directly to the overworld leads to all sorts of pacing problems, whether that be sitting around waiting for your Pikmin to complete your tasks, or switching gears from the overworld gameplay to the cave gameplay on a dime, or just finding the willpower to deal with one at all given how long they can be. The pacing of each day is really satisfying, lengthening it with a cave, no matter how well designed, has always left an icky taste in my mouth. So then I just hold off on caves until I set aside a full day specifically for them, but then that day in particular is egregiously long. Just have Dingo be the Rescue Corps Spelunker or something, and have the caves be separate entirely. Discover them in the overworld, and then take them on by talking to Dingo at the start of a new day.
Also like the idea of limiting certain Pikmin types a lot, but it feels like they take it a bit too far. Not being able to get four of the onions until the postgame, with two of them being locked behind a different mode entirely, is kinda silly. Looking for new onions was really fun early on, probably my favorite progresion track in the game, but they go cold turkey really quickly which made subsequent caves and expeditions more disappointing than they should've been.
Also like the idea of limiting certain Pikmin types a lot, but it feels like they take it a bit too far. Not being able to get four of the onions until the postgame, with two of them being locked behind a different mode entirely, is kinda silly. Looking for new onions was really fun early on, probably my favorite progresion track in the game, but they go cold turkey really quickly which made subsequent caves and expeditions more disappointing than they should've been.
That's why I stopped playing, because the game was pushing me towards doing something like that and I didn't find that way of playing fun. I had one unavoidable situation where I lost 35+ Pikmin. Being ridiculously careful is not something you need to do to not lose any Pikmin, is something required in case you get bad RNG, which is something completely out of your control and that you can't strategize about. Caves are very long, so if you get 2 instances of stuff like this that's 50+ Pikmin you lose in unfair ways. Trying to play the game honest results in disproportionate punishment, so what the developers are encouraging with that is that you only take with you the minimum amount of Pikmin you can lose and you stay with them at all times. Both of these things cripple the Dandori severely; They discourage multitasking and they make everything much slower and tedious to do.
Leaving all the Pikmin at the base sounds dumb, but it really is what the game is pushing for. Killing everything with punches is overkill, but going through the level with the captain first, or with a tiny group of Pikmin you agree to sacrifice seems to be what the game is advocating for. One optimizes time and the other resources, but there's no way of playing that optimizes anything and still adheres to what can be considered "fun".
There's a quote form Sid Meier that goes “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game” and its continuation: “One of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves”. So, the fact that so many of us are saying that the way to play in caves is leaving all the Pikmins on the base, is proof enough that the design is faulty. If that wasn't the intended way to play it, then the designers should've done things differently to help us determine the intended way to play. And most of all, if the intended way to play is not fun, then that's on the designers as well.
I understand what you say about people claiming something they don't like is "bad design", but in this case I think we're presenting valid arguments as to what we think there are faults in the design.
What do you think is the optimal way to play in caves?
I don't think anyone is saying that Pikmin 2 is a bad game, IMHO it's great but it has some shortcomings, just like 1 has dated elements that make it rough to play today, 3 has no urgency with the overabundance of food, or 4 is a bit of a slog with all the back-to-back interruptions and cutscenes.
amiigo
Tektite
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Having had some time to reflect after finishing, this is gonna sound entitled, but I'll try not to. The game feels complete and fleshed out, but it left me wanting more, so I really hope we get some DLC. Louie's tale? Koppaite's tale? More dandori battles/challenges? A rogue-lite experience? The possibilities are endless and the foundation is there.
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I think that Sid Meier quote is great, but our very online culture makes that a pretty daunting task for developers. How many videos have you seen of people deliberately playing a game incorrectly for the memes? How many people try to replicate that in their own downtime? No Death Runs are a fan initiative, and no amount of developer intervention is going to eliminate those. For their part, the developers have tried to ease those players' burdens with rewinds and streamlined combat and with, well, making games like Pikmin 3 and (most of) Pikmin 4 that are really damn easy.
Their actually were choices made with Pikmin 2 to protect players, too. I think it's no accident that the game saves between cave floors, so players can reset after a bad outcome without having to redo everything. The floor resets, yeah, but the only thing that really changes is the layout. The enemies, treasures, and obstacles are all the same; they just move around.
There are also geysers on some floors to give you an out if shit goes south. You will have to redo any floors before the geyser, but if you collected everything you can just walk to the floor you left off on in moments. If you don't want to fully exit, then usually there are floors for you to regroup and replenish your army at least a little bit.
As for optimal play, I'm probably not the guy to ask. I'm not great at Pikmin; I lost 40+ Pikmin on certain floors and just kept on trucking. It is what it is, as they say. If I was especially concerned about a floor, I did disband and use smaller groups. That said, those smaller groups consisted of at least 20 or more Pikmin so I could scout and do damage, as needed. The only time I ran around as a captain was when the game presented those worms that shoot homing rocks you can redirect back at them with careful movement.
Generally, this was a good practice in the first Pikmin, too. Running around with a full army was a luxury earned with careful planning. Otherwise, it was just begging for trouble. The Pikmin AI was far too dumb and it was easy to lose big numbers when carrying 100 of the little guys.
Anyways, I have no interest in changing anyone's mind. I just hate to see something I loved as a youth (and still enjoy quite a bit today) being accused of being bad, actually, because it doesn't adhere to some players' sensibilities. As you said, you aren't saying it's bad, but I've seen it all over here and elsewhere.
For me, Pikmin 4 was like coming home. Pikmin 3 was such a retreat from all of the interesting innovations brought about in Pikmin 2, in my opinion, and Pikmin 4 brought most of that back (sans the sometimes unforgiving difficulty). I don't really want to see the pendulum swing the other way. But, as I said in another post, if that's the cost of more Pikmin, then so be it.
If we get DLC I'm pulling for Bulbmin to return, even though they don't really have a purpose with Glow Pikmin existing. Maybe they could expand on them and allow more enemies to get "converted".
That or they could make another side story around them like Olimar's Tale. They haven't returned since Pikmin 2 though so it's not looking great for our parasitic pals.
That or they could make another side story around them like Olimar's Tale. They haven't returned since Pikmin 2 though so it's not looking great for our parasitic pals.
DenkeyKong
banana
Yeah, I think it is one of the game's strongest points. I think the creatures play a large part in that feeling as well. They are all so fleshed out and there are so many that look so nice and all have unique behaviour and attacks. Magnificient really! They're also quite sparcely used, which is good for the freshness, but on the other hand I feel like there is still a lot of potential to use them in new set-ups and combinations.
Also, on the point of DLC, at the start of the game I would have sworn the final challenge would be accessed via the cave that is visible from the main hub, especially when the area of the main hub started to be expanded. Well, that did not pan out. But it might be an option for DLC, I mean just look at it, it must have reason right?
Stilt Village
GBA
I'm someone who grew up loving 2, experienced a sort of homesickness for it with 3, but then 4 actually failed to replicate what I liked about it moreso than 3 ever did. They improved the level design of the caves, and... that's it, that's the only thing about it I think is as good or better than 2. It's a pretty major thing granted, which I think makes it way more consistently enjoyable to play, but...
Earlier I ranked the games specifically by how fun they were to play, and that's because for me that's only half of Pikmin. The other half is the writing and general "experience" as a piece of art, and if I'm ranking them on that, 2 is in first place, but 4 is dead last.
BlackthornOrion
#theprocessbroke
I think it'd be neat to do something with the Koppaites in DLC. They could use it as an excuse to bring back Pikmin 3's "day limit determined by collected fruit" approach so that every previous format is represented (hard limit, endless, and resource-dependent).
Plus an end-of-day conversation has a line of dialogue referencing an impending food crisis on Koppai, so they kinda already laid some groundwork there.
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I don't think anyone was being elitist about Pikmin. In fact, I don't think people were even really calling it a crazy divergence. What people, myself included, were saying is that the things Pikmin 2 added felt counter to what they liked about Pikmin 1's design. That given what they liked about the series, Pikmin 2 did not help much with some of its design choices. It did change some fundamental design choices, that's pretty much undeniable. But I don't think just the very fact it changed things was being used against it ... it's that they weren't liked by the people commenting. I also don't think Pikmin 2 is bad. It's a good game.
Besides, all complaints ultimately boil down to taste. One thing I can give Pikmin 2 is that I feel like 4 kind of missed some of the point of caves in general. I mean without caves being hard or having some sort of challenge ... there's really not much strategy in caves anymore. It's great that they added actual level design, but like Stilt Village said, the fact that's all they said isn't enough.
I'm almost finished with Pikmin 3: Finished the main story, got all fruits, finished the Side Stories and am now going through the missions. The missions are fire! I've platinumed the first 4 after several tries and it's been amazing. I didn't try this hard in any other entry, but after going through the whole series I now have a Dandori fire burning inside me Once I'm done with 3 I'll probably replay Pikmin 1, play a bit with tis extra content and then jump back into 4 to try to improve my records in the Dandori Challenges, Night expeditions and such.
I like the 3 captain system, but like what happened with Pikmin 4, I feel that the games takes away a lot of the interesting decisions you had to make in Pikmin 1 in favour of simplified systems. It has to be this way because otherwise it would be really messy to micromanage everything with 3 captains. I don't think this is necessarily worse than 1, I see it as a different, valid approach, even though I think I still prefer the style of 1 more (if only it had better AI and camera!). Pikmin 4 however I feel like it oversimplifies too much, Oatchi is almost a cheat code and there aren't as many opportunities to multitask as in Pikmin 3 (outside of Dandori Challenges and Night Expeditions, that is). I feel like the focus in Pikmin 3 was precisely in multitasking: You have 3 captains that are functionally the same, you can make them go to places on their own or throw them to reach high ledges and none is better than the rest. The game uses this as a base for a lot of puzzles. Also, the food requirement tries to instill some urgency so you try to do things quickly, even though it's completely irrelevant after a couple of days. In Pikmin 4 however, Oatchi is much more capable than the MC, which is useless in some situations (like when having to break pots or bringing Pikmin other than blue/pink across water). There not being a time limit or sense of urgency makes it so the player will tend to just ride on Oatchi all the time and just explore everything leisurely, so there's nothing really pushing you to multitask.
The main campaign was fine, but again, there was no urgency at all once you get enough fruit, which can easily be done in a couple of days. I may be wrong, but I think that the game doesn't give you any reason to return to already visited areas, except when Louie steals the fruit but he unlocks new parts of the level so you don't really return to the "same" area. You can just follow the main story beats while you recover the fruit you find along the way and that'll take you to the final boss. I loved how when in Pikmin 1 you unlocked a new onion your first impulse was to think about those unattainable ship parts on other areas and how you could now get to them, almost like how a map opens in a Metroidvania game once you get a cool ability like bombs or walljumping. But, as you can perfectly do with the fruit you already have, there's no such big reward in revisiting other areas. You may need to do so to unlock a new Pikmin type (not sure about this), but it's just a key to a lock, rather than a new tool for cool puzzles like in Pikmin 1. True, you need everything to get all fruits so you'll find your puzzles there, but that's a self-imposed goal and not something the game creates any need for, unlike ship parts in 1. So the hype for new types is a bit diminished.
My current Pikmin ranking:
Pikmin 1>Pikmin 3>Pikmin 4>Pikmin 2
Once I'm done with 3 I'll probably replay Pikmin 1, play a bit with tis extra content and then jump back into 4 to try to improve my records in the Dandori Challenges, Night expeditions and such.I like the 3 captain system, but like what happened with Pikmin 4, I feel that the games takes away a lot of the interesting decisions you had to make in Pikmin 1 in favour of simplified systems. It has to be this way because otherwise it would be really messy to micromanage everything with 3 captains. I don't think this is necessarily worse than 1, I see it as a different, valid approach, even though I think I still prefer the style of 1 more (if only it had better AI and camera!). Pikmin 4 however I feel like it oversimplifies too much, Oatchi is almost a cheat code and there aren't as many opportunities to multitask as in Pikmin 3 (outside of Dandori Challenges and Night Expeditions, that is). I feel like the focus in Pikmin 3 was precisely in multitasking: You have 3 captains that are functionally the same, you can make them go to places on their own or throw them to reach high ledges and none is better than the rest. The game uses this as a base for a lot of puzzles. Also, the food requirement tries to instill some urgency so you try to do things quickly, even though it's completely irrelevant after a couple of days. In Pikmin 4 however, Oatchi is much more capable than the MC, which is useless in some situations (like when having to break pots or bringing Pikmin other than blue/pink across water). There not being a time limit or sense of urgency makes it so the player will tend to just ride on Oatchi all the time and just explore everything leisurely, so there's nothing really pushing you to multitask.
The main campaign was fine, but again, there was no urgency at all once you get enough fruit, which can easily be done in a couple of days. I may be wrong, but I think that the game doesn't give you any reason to return to already visited areas, except when Louie steals the fruit but he unlocks new parts of the level so you don't really return to the "same" area. You can just follow the main story beats while you recover the fruit you find along the way and that'll take you to the final boss. I loved how when in Pikmin 1 you unlocked a new onion your first impulse was to think about those unattainable ship parts on other areas and how you could now get to them, almost like how a map opens in a Metroidvania game once you get a cool ability like bombs or walljumping. But, as you can perfectly do with the fruit you already have, there's no such big reward in revisiting other areas. You may need to do so to unlock a new Pikmin type (not sure about this), but it's just a key to a lock, rather than a new tool for cool puzzles like in Pikmin 1. True, you need everything to get all fruits so you'll find your puzzles there, but that's a self-imposed goal and not something the game creates any need for, unlike ship parts in 1. So the hype for new types is a bit diminished.
My current Pikmin ranking:
Pikmin 1>Pikmin 3>Pikmin 4>Pikmin 2
Stilt Village
GBA
You do need all of the fruits for the best ending, so it is similar to the first game in that regard. Although the optional ship parts are a fairly pointless concept as they don't cut anything out besides the final boss and there's no real indication or reasoning for which specific four parts you can do without. It's more just "if you never killed the Breadbug and you missed a couple things in the Distant Spring there's a chance Olimar will live when time runs out", which is like, eh? It's a bit weird the game even has a median ending.
I do think you're exaggerating how much backtracking was a thing in 1 though, you need to return to the Forest of Hope and Impact Site (for one part) after getting Blue Pikmin, and that's it. 2 actually had the most involved area hopping. Go back to Awakening Wood with Yellows for Blues, then return to both Perplexing Pool and Valley of Repose to finish them.
I was pretty surprised backtracking was entirely absent from 4 after the first area seemed to lean so hard into it though as you gather all the initial Onions, teach Oatchi to swim, etc. It has so many mechanics that seemed designed to introduce way more metroidvania progression than ever before, and then they just don't at all.
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The golden bar has made me given up on this development team
I'm joking, but even though I figured it was coming, this is the absolute worst Pikmin 2 reference you can make.
I'm joking, but even though I figured it was coming, this is the absolute worst Pikmin 2 reference you can make.
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I hope the dude that said there would be no Pikmin 5 is eating CROW
This game is a wonderful experience
This game is a wonderful experience
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It's honestly barely an issue if you do something specific first
But granted you have to know to do that thing before going for it
Phosphorescent Skeleton
draw a white chalk baphomet
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100% Cleared pikmin 4 and my review is....
Buppy dog buppy dog bup bup buppy dog
Awoooooo
Buppy dog buppy dog bup bup buppy dog
Awoooooo
SpaceGodzilla
Did You Get that Thing I Sent You?
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with the game looking to blow past Pikmin 3 deluxe as the best-selling game in the franchise by a VARY large margin he could not have been more wrong
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I mean, I knew about the other way to circumvent when I posted (didn't know about it at the time it happened though, had to look it up).
But from a game design standpoint ... I'm, not sure what that solves? It's either you grind for purple Pikmin, or you do a 1-2 hour long side campaign. As much as I like the side content, that's not a particularly compelling list of choices for one treasure.
Why does this sound like the ReviewTechUSA opening sung by Oatchi
Clov
An ethernet cable girlfriend
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I feel like I need to give everyone more context for this. Phos spent the last three days doing almost nothing but playing Pikmin 4. We had just finished a drunken double feature of The Running Man and Ingmar Bergman's The Magic Flute, when we decided to turn in for the night. Or at least I did. As I lost consciousness on our futon, my last memory of that night was Glow playing her Switch beside me, chanting "Buppy Dog, Buppy Dog" over and over.
Needless to say she's a big fan of Oatchi and Moss
Phosphorescent Skeleton
draw a white chalk baphomet
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Arararara achooachoo rararaw!
linkwashere
Space Warrior
Time limit is just a way of creating some kind of urgency. What they probably will take from the sales, if the feedback is positive, is that a more streamlined and less challenging experience is better received by the general public.
Yeah, Pikmin 3 missions are so great. The best the series has been. It's pure Dandori.
D
Deleted member 645
Guest
I need dlc for this like yesterday. The game was way too short.
