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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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ZonaiResearcher said:
Super Nintendo: No CD drive
Nintendo 64: No dedicated sound chip, no CD drive
GameCube: No full-DVD size game disc, no online support
Wii: No HD support
Wii U: Using the same core design as Wii, slow UI
Switch: No support for 4K or HDR output despite X1 supporting it, limited cartridge sizes for publishers, downclocked cores holding back performance, no USB-3 support, Wi-Fi chip held back by system limitations

There's always been a "because Nintendo" since the very beginning. Going way back to NES, Kutaragi thought it was old technology and underpowered which is why he lobbied Nintendo to build the SNES sound chip and then the SNES CD add-on.
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GC had a spot for a modem (made sense, most players did not use the online features of the PS2), N64 hat a CPU that was bored most of the time cause to little ram and comparatively weak GPU. Wii definitely, salvaging GC dev cost, trying to be cheap and reach a broader audience

Wii u was an overall Desaster, the timing, the forced backwards compatibility, the highly expensive tablet, the horrendous OS...

Switch: arguably to not confuse customers, but it still annoys me that support of her and 4k was artificially limited.
 
Serif said:
March - November 2022: Stolen data from Nvidia reveals GPU spec for Switch 2 including architecture, # of CUDA / tensor / RT cores, confirmation of DLSS, Git commits reveal CPU configuration
Internet: * i sleep *

May 2024: Hey we uncovered the RAM + storage type and amount, a built-in mic and here are those specs from two years ago again
Internet: * real shit? *

It feels like we were the only ones that cared back then lol.

The new info is definitely exciting but it's a little odd to see information that's been thoroughly exhausted with analysis get a new bunch of reactions and reading a whole lot of 'too good to be true'. I guess people stopped paying attention to Switch 2 leaks due to feeling burned from Switch 4K reporting even though that Nvidia data is straight from the horse's mouth (or rather, computer).

But it's probably for the better for a lot of people to find out now, they'll only have to wait another year for the real thing and Nintendo did officially speak up about it which makes it more of a concrete thing to look forward to.
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It's due to the fact that we now know the Switch 2 will be announced this fiscal year.

It's hard to get excited over leaked specs when you don't even know if those specs will ever make it out of the internal prototyping phase. For all we knew, that device could have met the same fate as the rumored Switch Pro.
 
Oz is the perfect code name and follows the NX 2 letters trend, makes sense for a successor.

This thing is about to do some real magic
 
Puikko said:
It's due to the fact that we now know the Switch 2 will be announced this fiscal year.

It's hard to get excited over leaked specs when you don't even know if those specs will ever make it out of the internal prototyping phase. For all we knew, that device could have met the same fate as the rumored Switch Pro.
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Customs data says otherwise. That's the point. I guess the general public doesn't understand the tangibleness the customs data offer. It's not a "notion", what we see in that type of data.

With those kind of numbers (# of units in the shipment data), we've been reasonably sure they're past prototyping phase since September 2023, starting the pre-mass-production timeline (which admittedly have lasted longer than we thought it would).
 
Individualised said:
I'm skeptical. How has this person verified for sure that it is the real codename? Is there anything inside the file that suggests that?
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The files ssl_TrustedCerts.info and ssl_TrustedCerts.Ounce.info are exactly the same minus the 'data_offset' field for each certificate and the addition of

{'id': 65536, 'status': 1, 'data_size': 0x5AE, 'data_offset': 0xF834, 'x509': {'fingerprint': '0cc7ce50a8876f3c753b1c9536ec9cf13b6270e486bea42f0991bc9f22fdbc0c', ' serial_number': '0x6E0F9F9E662F3CA45EE146D9B2B3D4F4EA20B3A5', 'not_valid_before': '2022-09-07 08:25:15', 'not_valid_after': '2023-09-01 08:59:59', 'issuer': '<Name(C=JP,ST=Kyoto,L=Kyoto,O=Nintendo Co.\, Ltd.,CN=Nintendo Temp Root CA G4)>', 'subject': '<Name(C=JP,ST=Kyoto,L=Kyoto,O=Nintendo Co.\, Ltd.,CN=Nintendo Temp Root CA G4)>', 'signature_algorithm_oid': '<ObjectIdentifier(oid=1.2.840.113549.1.1.12, name=sha384WithRSAEncryption)>'}}
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in Ounce.info.

So nothing inside the file, just the name of the file - which is the only appearance of 'Ounce' that I can find.

Puikko said:
It's due to the fact that we now know the Switch 2 will be announced this fiscal year.

It's hard to get excited over leaked specs when you don't even know if those specs will ever make it out of the internal prototyping phase. For all we knew, that device could have met the same fate as the rumored Switch Pro.
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I mention that first point at the bottom of my post. Also, there were several GitHub commits made after the NVN2 leak related to T239 and customs data related to T239 prior to Nintendo's announcement, we have been sure these specs were not for an internal prototype for a while.
 
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darthdiablo said:
Not a fake codename, if Muji was in fact an actual placeholder. maybe.
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Codenames are usually decided right at the beginning of a system's development though. If a piece of hardware is so far in development as to have SDK support it will have a codename.

I'm wondering if this is another Indy/Iris situation. Perhaps one of these codenames was for a piece of cancelled hardware, like the rumoured T214 Switch Pro.
 
I have a quick question, what’s the problem with the Wii U backward compatibility? Is it that the Wii and Wii U were different architecture?

Because I’ve seen it mention here that Wii U backward compatibility was a mess.

Like I’m guessing we won’t face the same problem the backward compatibility the Wii U faced with the Switch 2
 
ILikeFeet said:
a cpu clock increase would definitely put the Switch in spitting distance of the latest Iphone. I said before that I feel like the big games on iphone feel like what a switch version would be, resolution and all
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It’s gonna be funny seeing Switch 2 massively out perform more powerful phones just like Switch did.
 
Steve said:
I have a quick question, what’s the problem with the Wii U backward compatibility? Is it that the Wii and Wii U were different architecture?

Because I’ve seen it mention here that Wii U backward compatibility was a mess.

Like I’m guessing we won’t face the same problem the backward compatibility the Wii U faced with the Switch 2
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There's no problem with Wiii U BC, it's 100% accurate as far as Im aware.

The problem was all the sacrifices Nintendo made to make it so.

Instead of going with an APU like the 2 others and getting a lot more bang for buck, they made a Frankenstein mcm along with IBM, AMD and Renesas.
 
Individualised said:
I'm skeptical. How has this person verified for sure that it is the real codename? Is there anything inside the file that suggests that? They're a dataminer, not necessarily someone with industry connections as far as I can tell.

I just don't understand the point of Nintendo trying to obscure the codename to the point of coming up with a fake one (Muji); and then using it in SDK filenames which they will have to replace and edit code to point to the new ones. That seems a bit counter-productive. They're also apparently using it on the dev portal. How would this benefit Nintendo? The whole point of a codename is so you can refer to something without using its real name - so Nintendo could refer to the next system to developers without a chance of the retail name being leaked.
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Doubt it is, they wouldn't make it a whole secret if it was
 
OctoSplattack said:
What would the point be to have a codename for a codename?
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As I and couple of others suggested, is there a possibility "Muji" was in fact an actual placeholder?

Something like that has to be ruled out, because some here were insistent that "Muji" sounds exactly like placeholder shortly after "Muji" came out in the discussion here.

Assuming of course this (Oz thing) is real and we're not all being bamboozled. I am kind of sus of the way it came up (someone posted a riddle and now here we are)
 
Hermii said:
There's no problem with Wiii U BC, it's 100% accurate as far as Im aware.

The problem was all the sacrifices Nintendo made to make it so.

Instead of going with an APU like the 2 others and getting a lot more bang for buck, they made a Frankenstein mcm along with IBM, AMD and Renesas.
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Hopefully we don’t see that happening, since I think Nvidia is able to help Nintendo to created a functional BC.

If not, maybe they’ll do the Xbox route and use emulation.
 
Individualised said:
I'm skeptical. How has this person verified for sure that it is the real codename? Is there anything inside the file that suggests that? They're a dataminer, not necessarily someone with industry connections as far as I can tell.

I just don't understand the point of Nintendo trying to obscure the codename to the point of coming up with a fake one (Muji); and then using it in SDK filenames which they will have to replace and edit code to point to the new ones. That seems a bit counter-productive. They're also apparently using it on the dev portal. How would this benefit Nintendo? The whole point of a codename is so you can refer to something without using its real name - so Nintendo could refer to the next system to developers without a chance of the retail name being leaked.
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MAYBE, both codenames are right, and possibly even more so, different codenames would be used with different partners to make it easier to detect where a leak came from.
 
OctoSplattack said:
What would the point be to have a codename for a codename?
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It was pointed by a japanese person here that "Muji" probably wasn't a codename, but simply a word to refer to something not specified. People didn't listen to them, but they were apparently right.

Maybe in some documents they couldn't use the codename because they would be accessed by outside people, so they referred to the system as "nondescript" ("Muji") in those, and that's what we got.
 
darthdiablo said:
As I and couple of others suggested, is there a possibility "Muji" was in fact an actual placeholder?

Something like that has to be ruled out, because some here were insistent that "Muji" sounds exactly like placeholder shortly after "Muji" came out in the discussion here.

Assuming of course this (Oz thing) is real and we're not all being bamboozled. I am kind of sus of the way it came up (someone posted a riddle and now here we are)
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Obviously I don't know the full context of the code snippet shared and I obviously don't have SDK access, but if "Muji" is a placeholder for something, I imagine it's something more along the lines of a non-existent/sample target platform for SDK testing purposes. Though that wouldn't explain why it's apparently mentioned on the dev portal.
 
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I know it's unlikely, but since it's something I've never seen asked before...

How would you guys feel if a stylus pen were packaged with the Switch 2?


Playing ports of games for the Nintendo DS that made heavy use of the stylus pen (for example, "The World Ends With You") has taught me the best results are on portable mode and using my finger in place of a pen. Basically playing the game as if I were playing on a DS sans the pen. Since the Switch 2 will undoubtedly get more ports of DS/3DS games, be backwards compatible, and basically have most of the greatest hits from across Nintendo's whole history....I wonder if throwing in a pen for the sake of playing those DS ports would be a good idea.

I know it probably won't happen, but I'm curious how people feel about it.
 
Steve said:
Hopefully we don’t see that happening, since I think Nvidia is able to help Nintendo to created a functional BC.

If not, maybe they’ll do the Xbox route and use emulation.
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We know it's not happening. Evidence seems to point to some sort of software translation layer between Maxwell and Ampere.

Might not be 100% accurate like the Wii U solution, but 99% of games should work fine.
 
gabeplays said:
With regards to RAM:

One of the worst decisions Nintendo could do is make a SKU that has more RAM because it means a number of their customers who purchased another model can't play a certain game. For example, if there's a "Switch 2 Pro" will 16gigs of RAM at $500 and a very popular game was developed for it, what about the majority of users who bought the base model at launch? or the Lite digital-only version at launch?
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It's been done many times before by Nintendo. Going all the way back to the Game Boy Color, which had 2x CPU and 4x RAM compared to Game Boy, only 30% of GBC games were compatible with GB and the rest were exclusive. Nintendo and others consider the GBC to be part of the GB family and not a new generation. Also the DSi, more CPU, more RAM, exclusive software digitally and even physically. New 3DS, much more powerful CPU, double the RAM, some exclusive games.

Also Xbox Series X and S is predicated around having one model with less RAM, a lower price, and running the same games at lower resolution or framerate.
 
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ZonaiResearcher said:
Super Nintendo: No CD drive
Nintendo 64: No dedicated sound chip, no CD drive
GameCube: No full-DVD size game disc, no online support
Wii: No HD support
Wii U: Using the same core design as Wii, slow UI
Switch: No support for 4K or HDR output despite X1 supporting it, limited cartridge sizes for publishers, downclocked cores holding back performance, no USB-3 support, Wi-Fi chip held back by system limitations

There's always been a "because Nintendo" since the very beginning. Going way back to NES, Kutaragi thought it was old technology and underpowered which is why he lobbied Nintendo to build the SNES sound chip and then the SNES CD add-on.
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(Wow, my first ever post, and it's to tell someone they're wrong and that I'm right! What a way to make a first impression)

Could you provide a source for Kutaragi's thoughts on the SNES? It sounds like it'd be an interesting read.

Also, of all the things to criticise the SNES for, I'm not sure I'd agree that missing a CD drive is at the top of the list, especially since none of the (successful) competition at the time used CDs either AFAIK.

There's much that can be said about the use of a dated CPU architecture, the woes of needing a more expensive cart to use the full memory clock speed, or the painful ordeals of moving data into the audio RAM...
My personal single biggest gripe about the SNES, though, is that it could use an extra 32 bytes.

So you see, the SNES's sprites rely on a fixed amount of attribute memory (OAM) to know its position, palette, location in VRAM, and size, among a couple other things. There's enough OAM per sprite to let it select one of two sizes. So out of your options of 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, and 64x64 sprite sizes, you pick two of those and then every sprite has to pick one of those two. So far, so cool, right?

Well, there's also only enough attribute memory per sprite to be able to locate it inside one 16KB window of 64KB total VRAM. This means that in your entire VRAM setup, only one quarter of it, a mere 512 8x8 tiles (just double the 256 sprite tiles that could be simultaneously accessible on the 1983 Famicom), can be for sprites.

This 16KB limitation makes it very hard to resist using smaller tiles to minimise the amount of wasted space around each sprite. As a result, 8x8 and 16x16 is the only seriously used sprite setup in nearly every SNES game, which really limits how much stuff can be onscreen at once - 128 16x16 sprites is barely half a single screen.

Alternatively, you could go with 16x16 and 32x32 - if you like having huge amounts of empty, wasted space as part of the 16KB you're given to store the graphics for every moving element on your screen.
(This is where I'd attach a VRAM screenshot showing exactly what I mean, but I'm typing this on my phone at 4am.)

So whether it's one of those sprite size pairs or any of the others that you might try to pick, the amount of big, cool, moving stuff you're generally allowed to have simultaneously happening in your game is seriously constrained.
Meanwhile, the Sega Genesis can parade 64KB of sprites at whatever sizes it wants, easily covering double or quadruple the surface area in large sprites without having much of a raw quantity deficit at all (Genesis: 80 sprites. SNES: 128).

And what would it have took for the SNES to pretty much not have this flaw? Let's say we add one extra bit of OAM per sprite to double the total available sprite memory to a roomy 32KB, and one more bit per sprite to double the selectable sprite sizes, letting us choose whatever size we want for every sprite.
This would require a total of 256 bits of additional OAM. Which is 32 bytes.
 
darthdiablo said:
As I and couple of others suggested, is there a possibility "Muji" was in fact an actual placeholder?

Something like that has to be ruled out, because some here were insistent that "Muji" sounds exactly like placeholder shortly after "Muji" came out in the discussion here.

Assuming of course this (Oz thing) is real and we're not all being bamboozled. I am kind of sus of the way it came up (someone posted a riddle and now here we are)
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Its weird that people would have heard it being referred to as Muji by their dev friends, if its a placeholder.
 
Hermii said:
Its weird that people would have heard it being referred to as Muji by their dev friends, if its a placeholder.
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I agree and don't know what to make of the whole thing. That dataminer Michael seems confident it's not "Muji" and has created a hash to be revealed at a later time.
 
I've never used a stylus while playing Kid Icarus: Uprising, partly because I can't find it and partly because I feel more comfortable swiping with my thumb
 
0
P4bl0 said:
Oz
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P4bl0 said:
Project Oz
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Serif said:
Is it Ounce / Oz? In version 16.0.0 released on Feb 21 2023, there's a file added named "ssl_TrustedCerts.Ounce.info"

+ the hint given by @finite
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LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
The_Wizard_of_Oz_-_Beyond_the_Yellow_Brick_Road_Coverart.png
 
Jbone916 said:
This thread is basically a detective novel at this point.
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[Noire music playing]

[Old fashioned detective noire voice]

Those were the times. Those days of piecing together thread of an upcoming sweater of a console, the machine ever whirring to natural red and white array of stiches and seemingly endless material, running out sooner than you think. The gears grinding for around 500 days without a word from the company, claiming it'll be "announced at a later date" like the death of a famous and aging novelist. The worm turned eventually. The past week has been flooded with so much work and information that the Misses had to sent letters to my work address to proclaim she misses me.

All these talks of Random Access Memory and Storage has led me to forget those hard times, sitting in my swivel chair waiting for the day to come where we had something do discuss. All those talks of the die made me want to die myself.


Okay seriously that's enough, i'm not a good enough writer to even make a half-decent butchering of a Noir story.
 
Scires said that if you knew the code name, you could brute force the hash, right? We've got some good hints and a lead, it might be worth checking if Ounce/Oz is it. Heck if I know how to do anything with that, I'm just a hardware guy.

If Ounce really is the code name, it's unfortunate since I'll never not be able to associate it with anything besides the late Big Ounce, may he rest in peace.
 
Steve said:
GTA6 dream somehow still lives with all these reports.

But I’m actually excited seeing developers working on an entirely different architecture, compare to the similar PS5 and Xbox.

We might see some port (especially PS4) run similarly or even better. I’m also intrigued seeing our first impossible port, since the Witcher 3 on switch was quite a nice experience (I’m saying this as someone who completely beating the game)
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GTA6 won’t come to the Switch for the same reasons GTAV never did.

Witcher 3 is a good touchstone. Any Xbox One game could have been ported to the Switch. There is no reason to expect any greater percentage of games ported to the new hardware running on Series S.

darthdiablo said:
OLED won't remain $350 when Switch 2 launches (maybe it will, but I doubt it).

Nintendo I trust won't go over $399. Go higher, then the Switch 2 would not really be accessible for majority of people (not in their budget). $399 is already a high price point to begin with.
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Switch was DOA at $299.

OLED was DOA at $349

Apparently the ceiling for Switch hardware pricing is higher than many people think,

Nintendo can absolutely go over $399 for a premium model.
 
oldpuck said:
The highest end cards right this second have 24 GB of RAM, and run $1500+ USD
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Honestly, its not the best example since its a common tactic in the PC market so they can force you to upgrade every 1-2 generations. You can get the 1 of the lowest tier, the 7600 xt, that has a 16gb SKU (+50-75$ than the 8gb) in a clamshell mode (doubling the RAM capacity with the same 128bit bandwith). I dont know the BoM for every Gb of RAM but I bet it isnt a lot...

To all of you guys who have quoted me although I do agree on some things, I bet the ports from next-next gen (haha) within the next 4-5 years are going to need a lot of memory. Anyway, I don't think we will suffer that much with the low performance we have noticed in some games the last couple of years with the OG switch !
Perhaps we wont need to wait 8 years to see the next device after Drake so those problems wont exist.

PS2: A PRO model with more RAM isnt good for the ecosystem IMO. It's not as easy as lowering the graphics, look at the ps5 pro that keeps the same amount of RAM (almost) and CPU.
PS: English isnt my native language as you can tell so excuse my language.
 
lowbattery said:
Scires said that if you knew the code name, you could brute force the hash, right? We've got some good hints and a lead, it might be worth checking if Ounce/Oz is it. Heck if I know how to do anything with that, I'm just a hardware guy.

If Ounce really is the code name, it's unfortunate since I'll never not be able to associate it with anything besides the late Big Ounce, may he rest in peace.
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How can you brute force an hash knowing only one word? i'm not an expert, in fact i'm researching on the subject right now for the first time in my life but from what i've come to understand having one word in a full sentence isn't enough?
 
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