StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

[oldpuck]

DF talking about PS5 vs Xbox Series X

The question is, why do PS5 games often fun better than the inarguably more powerful Series X? The standard answer is "PS5 is the primary and more optimized platform." The long and the short of it is that's basically true, but DF has some more insight from talking to developers.

The primary reason seems to be DirectX. The DirectX API on Xbox resembles the PC DirectX sufficiently close that you can "just" run DX12 code unchanged on Xbox. This makes cross-platform development for Xbox very easy, but at a cost of using the PC's higher level, "run on any hardware" API.

Xbox has support for deeper, lower level optimizations, but that work can't be shared with the PC version. If Microsoft were "winning" the console generation in terms of install base, perhaps more games would take advantage of this lower level API. But as it stands, many games essentially start with the PC code, with PS5 equivalent settings, and tune from there.

The toolchain appears to be a separate issue. According to John, multiple developers have cited the Playstation's shader compiler as generating higher quality output. This is deeply interesting to me, because I'm surprised that AMD isn't providing the shader compiler to both companies. If I had to guess, I would bet this is a benefit to Sony's approach of maintaining compute unit parity between the PS4/PS4 Pro/PS5 GPU designs - Sony's compiler has had years to optimize for scheduling warps over a fixed number of compute units.

Finally, Alex speculates that PS5's design favors older engine technology. Sony has preserved the PS4 Pro's GPU layout in the PS5, and the Pro itself was a doubling of the PS4's GPU layout. In order to make the PS5 faster than last generation, the clock speed was pushed higher. Microsoft instead took the strategy of adding many more compute units, and leaving the clock speed relatively low.

This means despite the fact that Series X has a bigger GPU overall, they have the same number of rasterization blocks. And because Sony pushed power by increasing clock speeds, the PS5 runs that older rasterization pipeline faster than Series X. Ironically, the Xbox Series X, which had no exclusives at launch, is much better built for next-gen-only engines.

 

[Hermii]

will Switch successor struggle, if a PS6 game is ported to the console? or not.

I think were already at the point where budgets, not hardware is the limiting factor for graphics.

 

[Lancelot]

so are you implying/sugesting the next 3D Mario could have a visual quality similar to Ratchet e Clank(2016)? is this real?is difficult to imagine Nintendo putting games with this such quality, they rely on cartoony stylized art style for most of it franchises, Metroid maybe, since is more of a stylized realism.

Better, 2016 is a long time ago and even Insomniac has showed a generational leap of their own for the PS5 title. The PC port of RA runs on Steam Deck very well, that should give you an idea.

 

[oldpuck]

Follow up - what does the PS5/Series X comparison mean for Switch 2.

Well, it's a solid reminder that FLOPS matter, but they're not the whole story. I think that's the primary thing we can take away. Even for those of us who are game developers (hobbyist or pro), we can only ballpark the quality of things like Nintendo's shader compiler. At least without signing an NDA.

Another thing to see is the double edged sword of Sony and Microsoft's relationship with third parties. Sony "believes in generations" but they designed a piece of hardware which is tremendously accomodating to cross-gen, even if it meant that PC development would leave them behind at a faster rate. Microsoft designed a piece of hardware which more closely aligned with the future of PC gaming - while their own games were solidly cross-gen.

Nintendo is the primary developer/publisher on their own platform. That, historically, has lead to hardware decisions that can be difficult for third parties, but they've never had this kind of mismatch between their hardware philosophy and their software philosophy.

Nvidia has leaned into - and helped to create - the "compute over rasterization" approach. And Nintendo has decided to go with a fully mature design, rather than a deeply custom GPU architecture, so they've inherited an approach similar to Microsoft's. PS4's pixel fillrate will top Switch 2, and that might require challenging optimizations for last gen ports, even if otherwise Switch 2 is a more powerful machine.

 

[gabeplays]

When I think of Hi-Fi Rush, the modern Spyro remakes, Crash Bandicoot 4, Ratchet and Clank 2016...gosh, Nintendo fans and fans of cartoony/stylized animations are going to be feasting.

 

[ShadowFox08]

You guys talking about Ps4 like it's good be that kind of power. But, the truth is that it's not.

But switch 2 can run this:

No Ps4 or Steam Deck can run this, so Switch 2 is stronger than both.

The problem now is not if the games looking good or not. They will, even many switch games can look good even today. The true problem is what games Switch 2 will have.

That machine will live the second half Ps5's life and Ps6's first half. It need to get enough power for thirds bring their games somehow to it. And a mere Ps4 can't archive it.

For luck, the machine that thread is helping uncovering will be capable enough to receive current and many future games. A Future-proof hybrid is what we really need to expect from Nintendo, not a "PS4 at best because Nintendo...".

I'd be willing to bet SD can run this game, if CPU is the main bottleneck (Considering it runs on switch 2, as we heard from rumors ). Will need some optimization, but it could play out similarly to handheld Switch 2 without DLSS (some FSR equivalent at best)

so are you implying/sugesting the next 3D Mario could have a visual quality similar to Ratchet e Clank(2016)? is this real?is difficult to imagine Nintendo putting games with this such quality, they rely on cartoony stylized art style for most of it franchises, Metroid maybe, since is more of a stylized realism.

Absolutely. It's going to be exciting to see how Nintendo stylizes it in PS4 level fidelity or even higher quality (lower resolution + DLSS can work) in portable mode. Odyssey looks great for a Switch game and has stood the test of time as an early switch game.

Will be interesting if the first 3D Mario game is multi plat, cause if it is, then we'll have to wait a bit longer or of course for a 3d Mario game for switch 2.

 

[Shoulder]

You're missing my point. The Switch 2 will do at least what a PS4 can do at minimum. Uncharted 4, The Last of Us, etc portably on the go.

Sit on that for a second. That's... amazing. That's really, really, amazing!

The march of technology goes on and a lot of fantastic looking games have come out recently, but we've long since hit a point of diminishing returns. I doubt anyone can look at what the PS4 can do and say that looks terrible and we're going to be getting that as a starter. It's why I'm happy they're still making ports for that black beast. Half of the players on PSN are still rocking a PS4 and when you look at the images below, can you blame them?

Here's a comparison between a PS4, a PS4 Pro, and a PS5. At minimum? the Switch 2 going to be getting the far left image (in portable mode). Docked Mode will be somewhere in middle image. Most of the debates are how close to the far right the Switch 2 will get and imo it'll probably float somewhere between the middle and far right at it's best.

Maybe I'm speaking as an older player, but this is beyond huge. I can barely see the difference between the PS4 Pro version and the PS5 version. Even if the Switch 2 hypothetically could ONLY give us the far left image, is anyone really going to be dissatisfied with that? half of the 118 million players on PSN are still using a PS4 so clearly they don't think so: Kratos is sitting pretty on all of these machines!

There will always be lazy ports regardless of how powerful a console is just as there will always be lazy games. For every RetroStudios or Monolith Soft making black magic on the Switch's limited hardware, you have Gamefreak doing whatever the heck they're doing. But my point is not to miss the forest for the trees. It legit doesn't matter exactly where on the spectrum Switch 2 lands on. We're going to be getting visuals that look like the above images and that is huge.

Here's another way of looking at it too. Base PS4 is 1.84TFLOPs, and PS5 is around ~10TFLOPs (let's forget all the architectural differences for a moment for the sake of discussion). By simply cranking up the resolution from 1080p to 2160p (a 4x increase), that 1.84TFLOP figure is now 7.36TFLOPs (assuming everything is scaled perfectly, and evenly).

Interestingly, in the case for GOW: Ragnarok, PS5 with Quality Mode runs at native 4k, but at 30fps, and details are practically maxxed out. And A performance mode gies you 60fps, but with a dynamic resolution range of 1400p-2160p. Base PS4 by comparison is 1080p30, and details less so accordingly based on GPU differences. Even looking at the comparisons between the different modes on PS4/Pro/PS5, it all interestingly scales a bit more accordingly than some might expect:

There is an elephant in the room, and that is GOW:R ultimately is a cross-gen title, and not a bespoke PS5 exclusive. But even still, I don't see much in terms of what GOW can do outside of the usual improvements in storage speeds, which would naturally result in less loading across the board, plus maybe a redesign on how the world is built, and rendered to benefit the SSD speeds. But in terms of the graphics themselves? There isn't a massive difference. Heck, going from 30fps up to 120fp (GOW:R unfortunately only gets to ~80-90FPS when frame rate is unlocked) is probably the biggest upgrade from PS4 to PS5 IMO for GOW:R.

When I do eventually upgrade my PC monitor to something beyond 60hz, I'll be looking forward to joining that realm of gaming. Whether it's 120hz, 144hz, or even a 240hz monitor, I want to see how that all plays, and feels.

It does make me hopeful Switch 2 will at least support 120hz modes for docked play (doubtful we'll see it in handheld), but we'll see.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

Since it's only been a couple years since the industry has been getting into true 9th gen games in general, I think it would be most interesting to see what these 9th gen games would look like when they're brought to the switch2.Also the 9th gen games are still actually a visible improvement over the 8th gen games, especially with the explosion in geometry and the introduction of RT, better textures all make the difference visible, compare the difference between doom eternal as a cross gen and doom the dark ages .That's why I said switch2 with mesh shaders could bring first party games closer to 9th generation graphics standards compared to 8th generation graphics.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

Additionally graphics technology still exists a technology puzzle before it gets out of the race completely, it is path tracing. The introduction of this technology will truly end the race for meaningful graphics. Yes I think the difference in graphics technology between the 9th and 8th generation is still visible to the naked eye, although the diminishing returns are obvious, but that doesn't mean the 9th generation is just an average step forward, the introduction of RT and the introduction of virtual geometry were both groundbreaking.

 

[franzen23]

After seeing Nintendo end of year schedule, I really doubt Switch 2 was ever supposed to come out this holiday. It doesn't seem likely that they would release these games AND squeeze in a Switch 2 console launch with whatever games it also has.

If the holiday was just a bunch of remastered games or re-releases, then yeah maybe it was meant for this year. But not with a new Zelda, Mario Party, and Mario RPG. Pretty sure everyone just expected it to come out this year, and the rumor was never based on actual substantial sources. Maybe just a guy from some third party was told it was most likely coming in Q4

 

[Tioc]

After seeing Nintendo end of year schedule, I really doubt Switch 2 was ever supposed to come out this holiday. It doesn't seem likely that they would release these games AND squeeze in a Switch 2 console launch with whatever games it also has.

If the holiday was just a bunch of remastered games or re-releases, then yeah maybe it was meant for this year. But not with a new Zelda, Mario Party, and Mario RPG. Pretty sure everyone just expected it to come out this year, and the rumor was never based on actual substantial sources. Maybe just a guy from some third party was told it was most likely coming in Q4

something to keep in mind though, is that none of the big direct switch 1 titles are nintendo epd titles, they're seemingly all by second or third parties

mario party: ndcube
zelda: highly likely to be grezzo due to the links awakening remake artstyle being reused
mario and luigi: epd has never developed a title in this series before, likely its ilca
metroid prime 4: retro studios
nintendo world championship: if its epd, it would be a very small team
all of the "hd" branded ports announced this year were done by third parties like tantalus and forever entertainment

also, most of these titles can pretty confidently be labeled as mid-tier titles and not absolutely major projects, like 2023 had with totk and mario wonder, therefore it would be fairly easy to envision a switch 2 launch with a mario party, 2d zelda, and mario and luigi on last generation hardware playable on switch 2 via backwards compatibility, while the nintendo epd team hammers on major switch 2 exclusive titles that would be a far bigger deal

it would be a fun alternate timeline to think about, though in retrospect it's probably better the switch 2 comes in 2025 and gives the aforementioned switch 1 titles more time in the spotlight

 

[Triistan]

After seeing Nintendo end of year schedule, I really doubt Switch 2 was ever supposed to come out this holiday. It doesn't seem likely that they would release these games AND squeeze in a Switch 2 console launch with whatever games it also has.

If the holiday was just a bunch of remastered games or re-releases, then yeah maybe it was meant for this year. But not with a new Zelda, Mario Party, and Mario RPG. Pretty sure everyone just expected it to come out this year, and the rumor was never based on actual substantial sources. Maybe just a guy from some third party was told it was most likely coming in Q4

They could still have had Zelda for September, Mario & Luigi for October and Mario party cross gen on switch 2 launch for November alongside Mario 3D (only switch 2). December is empty, maybe there was a switch 2 release planned for that month. Or maybe Dk was planned for December as cross gen while there was a switch 2 exclusive planned for January.

Not saying that’s what happened but a switch 2 planned for this November doesn’t sound so crazy to me, especially with a Nintendo that potentially sits on several finished project for months/years.

 

[ILikeFeet]

the biggest problem with using the City Sample demo to guesstimate Drake performance is that it's not a proper demo. it's a UE5 project file that folks have taken the time to export. it's the same project file that Epic used to generate the console versions and the same file that The Coalition used to make Series S optimizations. it's also the same one Nintendo/Nvidia used to make optimizations to for Drake. but the project files won't have any optimizations. it's the rawest version of the demo we'll get

honestly, it's probably better to look at stuff like Immortals of Aveum or The Talos Principle 2 or something for a better measure. or, best yet, the upcoming Black Myth

 

[oldpuck]

After seeing Nintendo end of year schedule, I really doubt Switch 2 was ever supposed to come out this holiday. It doesn't seem likely that they would release these games AND squeeze in a Switch 2 console launch with whatever games it also has.

Seems pretty easy to me. The first half of the year was pretty dry, and these release dates were announced at the last possible minute. It's not hard for me to imagine that they pushed every halfway decent sized title into the holiday season to maximize holiday sales at the expense of the first half of the year.

 

[franzen23]

something to keep in mind though, is that none of the big direct switch 1 titles are nintendo epd titles, they're seemingly all by second or third parties

mario party: ndcube
zelda: highly likely to be grezzo due to the links awakening remake artstyle being reused
mario and luigi: epd has never developed a title in this series before, likely its ilca
metroid prime 4: retro studios
nintendo world championship: if its epd, it would be a very small team
all of the "hd" branded ports announced this year were done by third parties like tantalus and forever entertainment

also, most of these titles can pretty confidently be labeled as mid-tier titles and not absolutely major projects, like 2023 had with totk and mario wonder, therefore it would be fairly easy to envision a switch 2 launch with a mario party, 2d zelda, and mario and luigi on last generation hardware playable on switch 2 via backwards compatibility, while the nintendo epd team hammers on major switch 2 exclusive titles that would be a far bigger deal

it would be a fun alternate timeline to think about, though in retrospect it's probably better the switch 2 comes in 2025 and gives the aforementioned switch 1 titles more time in the spotlight

It's possible, but I'd argue Mario Party is a major project, at least in terms of sales. And even though Echoes is by Grezzo, it's still a new mainline 2D Zelda. Releasing 3 Switch games PLUS a system and however many launch games is like a 3 month span is too much. And 2 of them are Mario titles- if Switch 2 were to release with a new 3D Mario, then that would be 3 Mario games in 2 months. That's insane.

Also new consoles need to have some buffer space for ads and to build up hype. Nintendo would have to juggle advertising a zelda, and 2 Mario games release a few weeks before a new console launch. If you're a consumer or even a Nintendo fanboy, why would you rush to buy a new system when the old one just had 3 attractive games come out weeks before?

Look at what Sony did with PS5 - Ghosts came out in July, which gave them space and time to advertise the PS5. DKRHD in January and then Switch 2 being in March just makes sense

 

[franzen23]

Seems pretty easy to me. The first half of the year was pretty dry, and these release dates were announced at the last possible minute. It's not hard for me to imagine that they pushed every halfway decent sized title into the holiday season to maximize holiday sales at the expense of the first half of the year.

But if the rumor was to be believed, the Switch 2 was pushed to 2025 from holiday 2024 in mid February. So the first half of the year (or at least the slowest periods before Paper Mario came out) was already set in stone and not a last minute thing.

First half of the years have always been slower in the Switch's lifespan too. 2018, 2019, 2021 didn't have that much in the first half

 

[navierStokes]

The primary reason seems to be DirectX. The DirectX API on Xbox resembles the PC DirectX sufficiently close that you can "just" run DX12 code unchanged on Xbox. This makes cross-platform development for Xbox very easy, but at a cost of using the PC's higher level, "run on any hardware" API.

Xbox has support for deeper, lower level optimizations, but that work can't be shared with the PC version. If Microsoft were "winning" the console generation in terms of install base, perhaps more games would take advantage of this lower level API. But as it stands, many games essentially start with the PC code, with PS5 equivalent settings, and tune from there.

I haven't seen the video yet, but based from what I'm reading here, I'd assume that this also had a knock-on effect on the Series S also, and not only the Series X.
Of course, the more limited RAM pool hurts, but most of the touted DX12 ULTIMATE and marketing talk for the Series console hasn't materialised, especially SFS, which I understand should've been a difference maker. Directstorage is also sparsely implemented. Of course they're both not buttons you just turn on, so it's not that simple.
Variable Rate Shading has seen mixed results so far.

Perhaps Xbox is also unique in its position, due to the shared API with the PC platform, which for other consoles isn't as feasible (apart from Vulkan, but even then there are platform differences/integrations?). So you can "skip" the particular platform integration and optimisation.

I probably should watch the clip ..

the biggest problem with using the City Sample demo to guesstimate Drake performance is that it's not a proper demo. it's a UE5 project file that folks have taken the time to export. it's the same project file that Epic used to generate the console versions and the same file that The Coalition used to make Series S optimizations. it's also the same one Nintendo/Nvidia used to make optimizations to for Drake. but the project files won't have any optimizations. it's the rawest version of the demo we'll get

honestly, it's probably better to look at stuff like Immortals of Aveum or The Talos Principle 2 or something for a better measure. or, best yet, the upcoming Black Myth

Yeah in the end it's a futile effort, because you can't even use the lowest-end GPU to approximate any data properly.
I just tried it, because I could .

edit; this reply is probably rhetorical to both of you haha

 

[Steve]

architecture, so they've inherited an approach similar to Microsoft's. PS4's pixel fillrate will top Switch 2, and that might require challenging optimizations for last gen ports, even if otherwise Switch 2 is a more powerful machine.

which makes sense, the positive is we’ll be getting handcrafted ports from scratch, that’ll utilise all of the Switch 2 trinkets.

After that latest reports from digital foundry, I’m even more curious how developers are feeling about the hardware, since I always find that to be the most interesting part of any console generation, is hearing from the people who’re developing for it.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

After that latest reports from digital foundry, I’m even more curious how developers are feeling about the hardware, since I always find that to be the most interesting part of any console generation, is hearing from the people who’re developing for it.

Unless the epd devs are actively discussing it, we don't have a full picture because it's clear that switch2's hardware is customized to epd's own needs.

 

[Tioc]

It's possible, but I'd argue Mario Party is a major project, at least in terms of sales. Releasing 3 Switch games PLUS a system and however many launch games is like a 3 month span is too much. And 2 of them are Mario titles- if Switch 2 were to release with a new 3D Mario, then that would be 3 Mario games in 2 months. That's insane.

not saying all of the switch 1 titles would necessarily be released in the same window, considering most of the 2024 switch 1 titles look essentially complete it would be pretty easy to imagine that they were held off and placed for release in holiday 2024 when the switch 2 was delayed, rather than a potentially earlier 2024 date, plus the surplus of nintendo published titles would be fairly comparable to the switch's launch in 2017 when considering the 3ds 2017 lineup as well

also mario party definitely is a high selling franchise, especially in the switch 1 generation, but these are party games designed for multiplayer occasions, it would be very unwise to give such games a high budget and major project status, considering a second party mid-size developer can very reliably pump them out every 3 years as is

 

[Danny]

Funny how clickbaity some Nintendo youtubers are.

 

[Hermii]

Funny how clickbaity some Nintendo youtubers are.

This person put some effort into it.

 

[Jerm411]

I think were already at the point where budgets, not hardware is the limiting factor for graphics.

Well that and also, how much better can we make things look? I mean seriously...not only that but do we really want it?

I've always been kind of turned off by super photorealistic graphics to begin with, for the most part I want my games to be something different...it's why I gravitated to Nintendo early on and have been there ever since and always will be. People lament them for their style of games and graphics and often try to denigrate them by calling it "for kids" or what ever you see people say but part of gaming for me is escapism and that's what I'm looking for...

I don't need realistic graphics, insanely featured models, realistic violence and gore, etc. all the time...now there's a place for those things, don't get me wrong.

I'm rambling now but I think everyone will know what I mean lol.

 

[Steve]

This person put some effort into it.

Really like how he displays the magnets, will it work similar to the videos shown, not really, but it’s interesting we might be getting a different start up sound.

 

[monkeygotyou]

Funny how clickbaity some Nintendo youtubers are.

WHY'D YOU POST THAT, I THOUGHT IT WAS REAL FOR A SPLIT SECOND

 

[Lancelot]

Well that and also, how much better can we make things look? I mean seriously...not only that but do we really want it?

I've always been kind of turned off by super photorealistic graphics to begin with, for the most part I want my games to be something different...it's why I gravitated to Nintendo early on and have been there ever since and always will be. People lament them for their style of games and graphics and often try to denigrate them by calling it "for kids" or what ever you see people say but part of gaming for me is escapism and that's what I'm looking for...

I don't need realistic graphics, insanely featured models, realistic violence and gore, etc. all the time...now there's a place for those things, don't get me wrong.

I'm rambling now but I think everyone will know what I mean lol.

I get what you mean here, but at the same time... Are you really talking about graphics here? Nintendo games will have all the things you listed with the exception of M rated content and even then, second party partners like Platinum exist. What you're trying to say is that you like their artstyles more which is totally fine, but I don't see how this has anything to do with graphics... Things can look way better than they look right now, but neither the hardware or flexibility of development is there yet. However, it's key to stress that this is not the case for Switch 2 at all and resources shouldn't be an issue for Nintendo at all this generation.

 

[Polmo]

Unless the epd devs are actively discussing it, we don't have a full picture because it's clear that switch2's hardware is customized to epd's own needs.

This is a bit of myth, while some features on past consoles where disclosure with some specific teams, other team were not took in consideration and only get access to the devkit when the console was finalised.
Also, Nintendo never actually created hardware with only it's team in mind, especially with the Switch and the new managements

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

Also, Nintendo never actually created hardware with only it's team in mind, especially with the Switch and the new managements

I need to clarify that in my opinion only epd's own re-built pipeline around the hardware as well as the generic engine can realize the true potential of switch2, third parties will of course come along with ports that also utilize the potential of the hardware, but I don't believe they know better than epd.

 

[Jerm411]

I get what you mean here, but at the same time... Are you really talking about graphics here? Nintendo games will have all the things you listed with the exception of M rated content and even then, second party partners like Platinum exist. What you're trying to say is that you like their artstyles more which is totally fine, but I don't see how this has anything to do with graphics... Things can look way better than they look right now, but neither the hardware or flexibility of development is there yet. However, it's key to stress that this is not the case for Switch 2 at all and resources shouldn't be an issue for Nintendo at all this generation.

Yeah you're def. not wrong about artstyle and how I prefer Nintendo's easily but also I do mean graphics....like I know things can look better but by how much? When does this become diminishing returns? I feel like we're already there...

 

[Hermii]

WHY'D YOU POST THAT, I THOUGHT IT WAS REAL FOR A SPLIT SECOND

That's on you.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

Yeah you're def. not wrong about artstyle and how I prefer Nintendo's easily but also I do mean graphics....like I know things can look better but by how much? When does this become diminishing returns? I feel like we're already there...

Considering that Nintendo's extensive semi-realistic rendering of environments is very much a test of graphical standards, I think Nintendo will still need to have path-tracking before getting rid of graphical upgrades altogether (Nintendo doesn't engage in graphical competitions, but they do upgrade their graphics as much as they can without compromising the gameplay design as the centerpiece of the development model, and it's usually pretty good.Mario Odyssey's graphical standards are a commendable presence even when placed in the 8th gen).

 

[Hermii]

Considering that Nintendo's extensive semi-realistic rendering of environments is very much a test of graphical standards, I think Nintendo will still need to have path-tracking before getting rid of graphical upgrades altogether (Nintendo doesn't engage in graphical competitions, but they do upgrade their graphics as much as they can without compromising the gameplay design as the centerpiece of the development model, and it's usually pretty good.Mario Odyssey's graphical standards are a commendable presence even when placed in the 8th gen).

We also know NVN2 was in a decent state in March 2022 when the leak happened. Which means by the time this will release, they had at least 3 years to tool their engine technology around NvN 2s featureset. EPD Tokyo also haven't released a game in that time.

I think the next 3D Mario will surprise some people.

 

[Lancelot]

Yeah you're def. not wrong about artstyle and how I prefer Nintendo's easily but also I do mean graphics....like I know things can look better but by how much? When does this become diminishing returns? I feel like we're already there...

Well, my guess? Next gen, but not for Nintendo specifically. Currently, it's accurate enough to say that Nintendo is formally entering 8th gen territory with the defining characteristics of the current one, which are huge and very noticeable across the board when actually used. I can confidently say that although you're not going to see literal TLOU2s and GOWs from them, the "technology" (as a grouping term) in upcoming Nintendo games will be significantly more advanced despite their more "kiddy" artstyles like some would say. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised DF will be the first to point it out for whatever BOTW equivalent title we get day one.

 

[kasparov77]

Funny how clickbaity some Nintendo youtubers are.

speakers at the bottom of joycons
wiibros we back?

 

[Discostew]

You guys talking about Ps4 like it's good be that kind of power. But, the truth is that it's not.

I was putting things into perspective. When referring to a minimum of PS4's raw GPU power, I was speaking in the simplest terms, like TFlops which don't really explain anything other than it can do so many operations per second. I then expanded on that by mentioning the technical advances in architecture of at least 7 years. Newer architectures provide instruction sets that are more optimized for workloads used in today's designs. What might have taken 2-3 operations to produce a wanted result on GCN 2.0 (used in the PS4) might take one less operation on Ampere. Not necessarily for every task, but a high probability for sequences of operations often used. So, whatever PS4 could produce, Switch 2 could do it with less.

Then adding onto that was newer technologies like RT and DLSS, but those are just the talk of the town. There are plenty of others on Nvidia's side since Maxwell. For instance, Turing presented variable rate shading, which provides a means to increase performance by changing the rate of shading in different sections of a render in 16x16 pixel tiles. An area that wouldn't need 1x1 pixel precision could opt for something like 2x2 pixel shading (where 4 pixels in box formation are shaded the same). Also 4x4, 2x1, 1x2, 4x2 and 2x4. This, and other features, push what Switch 2 will be able to do that PS4 could not.

Again, we were talking about the bare minimum for portable mode in the most simplest terms.

DF talking about PS5 vs Xbox Series X

The question is, why do PS5 games often fun better than the inarguably more powerful Series X? The standard answer is "PS5 is the primary and more optimized platform." The long and the short of it is that's basically true, but DF has some more insight from talking to developers.

The primary reason seems to be DirectX. The DirectX API on Xbox resembles the PC DirectX sufficiently close that you can "just" run DX12 code unchanged on Xbox. This makes cross-platform development for Xbox very easy, but at a cost of using the PC's higher level, "run on any hardware" API.

Xbox has support for deeper, lower level optimizations, but that work can't be shared with the PC version. If Microsoft were "winning" the console generation in terms of install base, perhaps more games would take advantage of this lower level API. But as it stands, many games essentially start with the PC code, with PS5 equivalent settings, and tune from there.

The toolchain appears to be a separate issue. According to John, multiple developers have cited the Playstation's shader compiler as generating higher quality output. This is deeply interesting to me, because I'm surprised that AMD isn't providing the shader compiler to both companies. If I had to guess, I would bet this is a benefit to Sony's approach of maintaining compute unit parity between the PS4/PS4 Pro/PS5 GPU designs - Sony's compiler has had years to optimize for scheduling warps over a fixed number of compute units.

Finally, Alex speculates that PS5's design favors older engine technology. Sony has preserved the PS4 Pro's GPU layout in the PS5, and the Pro itself was a doubling of the PS4's GPU layout. In order to make the PS5 faster than last generation, the clock speed was pushed higher. Microsoft instead took the strategy of adding many more compute units, and leaving the clock speed relatively low.

This means despite the fact that Series X has a bigger GPU overall, they have the same number of rasterization blocks. And because Sony pushed power by increasing clock speeds, the PS5 runs that older rasterization pipeline faster than Series X. Ironically, the Xbox Series X, which had no exclusives at launch, is much better built for next-gen-only engines.

Now this brings a thought to mind. We all have been going back and forth on Switch 2's potential, like docked mode possibly hitting Series S graphical levels (or higher) with making use of Switch 2's features like RT and DLSS, but it ultimately ends with the thought that it either won't hit it, or there are some tradeoffs. Yet, this discussion between PS5 and Series X indirectly points out that not only is Series X held back on the developer side, but Series S as well. While theoretical performance numbers for a platform are generally higher than what developer can achieve, developers using DirectX on MS consoles to provide that cross-development ease with PCs makes that gap even greater. It's already that way on PC platforms, including portable PCs, as performance on a PC with specs equivalent to a console tends to be lower (not including many ports from consoles also have other issues).

So, while Switch 2's theoretical docked mode numbers may not match Series S's numbers, the use of the higher-level API on the latter would favors the former from the use of the low-level API for optimizations.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

We all have been going back and forth on Switch 2's potential, like docked mode possibly hitting Series S graphical levels (or higher) with making use of Switch 2's features like RT and DLSS

I actually think dlss is just a kind of upgrader made around resolution and frame rate（Resolution is only part of the performance）measure the thing that will probably help switch2's RT the most is the RR of dlss 3.5, so it does have a good potential to outperform xss in terms of RT results. but i'm more curious if nintendo can utilize virtual geometry to reach the level of geometry that xss can achieve, and since switch2has hardware accelerated virtual geometry, it will go further in graphical detail compared to the 8th gen games, but how far it can progress I don't know yet.

 

[TLZ]

Funny how clickbaity some Nintendo youtubers are.

It's funny how some people have absolutely zero imagination.

 

[Aufhebung RPG]

We also know NVN2 was in a decent state in March 2022 when the leak happened. Which means by the time this will release, they had at least 3 years to tool their engine technology around NvN 2s featureset. EPD Tokyo also haven't released a game in that time.

They should be starting next gen oriented development around 2020, 2022 into development they won't be able to release it next year, 2020-2022 should be making the game while developing the next gen engine.

 

[Dekuman]

which makes sense, the positive is we’ll be getting handcrafted ports from scratch, that’ll utilise all of the Switch 2 trinkets.

After that latest reports from digital foundry, I’m even more curious how developers are feeling about the hardware, since I always find that to be the most interesting part of any console generation, is hearing from the people who’re developing for it.

What's new from DF? THe latest thing i've seen from them Switch 2 related was a discussion about if 1080p screen is too much for the Switch 2

 

[Hermii]

They should be starting next gen oriented development around 2020, 2022 into development they won't be able to release it next year, 2020-2022 should be making the game while developing the next gen engine.

Yea they probably did, but just pointing out the graphic api was in a fairly mature state 3 years before the consoles launch.

I don't know if this is normal for consoles, but something tells me it isn't.

 

[Steve]

What's new from DF? THe latest thing i've seen from them Switch 2 related was a discussion about if 1080p screen is too much for the Switch 2

DF Weekly: If Xbox Series X is more powerful, why do some PS5 games run better?

On paper, the Xbox Series X is a considerably more powerful piece of hardware than PlayStation 5, so why are we looking…

www.eurogamer.net

Nothing about the Switch 2, but how the PS5 is easier to make games for, compared to the Xbox series X.

Oldpluck made a great post talking about it.

 

[Triistan]

But if the rumor was to be believed, the Switch 2 was pushed to 2025 from holiday 2024 in mid February. So the first half of the year (or at least the slowest periods before Paper Mario came out) was already set in stone and not a last minute thing.

First half of the years have always been slower in the Switch's lifespan too. 2018, 2019, 2021 didn't have that much in the first half

Yeah, H1 had one game per month, nothing very big for “core” gamers but commercially they had 4 easy million sellers and 2 “minor” games. H2 has two empty months (august and December) and July will have only a budget title (nes championship).

I see a slowdown on H2, not H1.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

WHY'D YOU POST THAT, I THOUGHT IT WAS REAL FOR A SPLIT SECOND

don't worry, the site will be completely unusable when it's actually announced

 

[eye0h]

It's funny how some people have absolutely zero imagination.

switch 2 content is some of the worst slop on youtube

 

[oldpuck]

But if the rumor was to be believed, the Switch 2 was pushed to 2025 from holiday 2024 in mid February. So the first half of the year (or at least the slowest periods before Paper Mario came out) was already set in stone and not a last minute thing.

First half of the years have always been slower in the Switch's lifespan too. 2018, 2019, 2021 didn't have that much in the first half

At this point, I'm just assuming that Nintendo has 8-12 more Switch 1 games. From a technological perspective, it makes sense to slow roll the transition amongst their partners, so they don't all halt on cross-gen development at the same time. Years ago, everyone was asking "what will replace the Wii U ports we got last time, while Nintendo gets their full next gen development up and running." The answer seems to be "more Switch 1 games".

I'm not saying there was definitely a delay. I buy your argument. I can just see a scenario like this:

Nintendo gives a fiscal year window to third parties, internally targeting Holiday 2024. Nintendo is banking Switch 1 titles to cover the gap while all their partner studios get up to speed on Switch 2 development, and to continue to make money off the existing Switch install base (since there isn't a 3DS equivalent to tap instead).

Zelda is supposed to anchor H1 2024, with next gen the anchor for H2, but by the end of 2023, they decide that they need to delay. Zelda gets moved back, Endless Ocean gets moved forward, and some post launch support titles (Brothership?) get moved up by a couple of months. DKCR HD is commissioned as a cheap title to cover the gap, and by February, the schedule is locked. The new fiscal is about to begin, and it's time to inform devs of a final release date, which they are shocked to discover is the absolute tail end of the fiscal, and not the holiday that they expected (or Nintendo was internally targeting).

 

[Steve]

switch 2 content is some of the worst slop on youtube

yea, mostly because there isn't much excitement in the gaming space right now, the only noticeable thing happening is a a console that hasn't been revealed.

Like... Switch, PS5 and Xbox isn't much hype surrounding these devices, especially the Switch, since it's the last year.
Plus most Nintendo yotubers are feeling the ,,Fuck, we have nothing of worth to talk about'' Especially Switch centric youtubers.

You can to the Scott the woz approach and make a 6 hours trilogy about the Wii U and why it conceptionally failed right from the start.

Heck, the second half of the year seems quite slow, with the exception of Zelda and Indiana jones (Indian jones will most likely be delayed)

I think that's why some of us are surprised by the banger direct, since Nintendo will most likely to the Sony approach and end the system life with a bang.
It's important to remember, the reason PS5 was a huge success in the beginning, was because Sony kept a smooth momentum, by releasing last of us 2 and ghost of tsushima in the PS4 last year.

 

[ILikeFeet]

They should be starting next gen oriented development around 2020, 2022 into development they won't be able to release it next year, 2020-2022 should be making the game while developing the next gen engine.

these new features won't prevent them from releasing. current techniques are still good. I mean, we're still seeing a slow rollout of RT and meshlet geometry on other systems

 

[neoplanet]

i think first year for switch 2 will be sustained by the retro new lauches , like ZA and metroid prime 4 with some games like the mario 3d and AA for switch 2 (with is gonna be bigger whann switch 1 AA)

second year we gonna see more of switch 2 games really lauching

 

[Steve]

At this point, I'm just assuming that Nintendo has 8-12 more Switch 1 games. From a technological perspective, it makes sense to slow roll the transition amongst their partners, so they don't all halt on cross-gen development at the same time. Years ago, everyone was asking "what will replace the Wii U ports we got last time, while Nintendo gets their full next gen development up and running." The answer seems to be "more Switch 1 games".

I feel like Nintendo are going to release older ports and smaller Switch 1 titles for cross gen games, games like WW and TWP seems like huge candidate for cross gen titles.

Nintendo gives a fiscal year window to third parties, internally targeting Holiday 2024. Nintendo is banking Switch 1 titles to cover the gap while all their partner studios get up to speed on Switch 2 development, and to continue to make money off the existing Switch install base (since there isn't a 3DS equivalent to tap instead).

Makes sense

Zelda is supposed to anchor H1 2024, with next gen the anchor for H2, but by the end of 2023, they decide that they need to delay. Zelda gets moved back, Endless Ocean gets moved forward, and some post launch support titles (Brothership?) get moved up by a couple of months. DKCR HD is commissioned as a cheap title to cover the gap, and by February, the schedule is locked. The new fiscal is about to begin, and it's time to inform devs of a final release date, which they are shocked to discover is the absolute tail end of the fiscal, and not the holiday that they expected (or Nintendo was internally targeting).

I feel like only smaller Dev team are shocked by Nintendo not releasing in holiday 2024, since it's pretty much been a stable for ages to release a console in the holiday, but Nintendo doing the Switch approach and releasing it in march seems way better for the consumers and Nintendo, since Nintendo can stockpile Switch 2 for the holiday and also make great software for the holiday.

and lastly i think Nintendo will do the Sony approach and end the Switch Era with a bang, since releasing Zelda, Mario party and M&L for this holiday will make consumer continuing thinking about the Switch and keep the momentum strong, similar when Sony released Last of us part 2 and Ghost of tsushima in 2020.

 

[Secu]

Nintendo will no longer invest too much effort into the Switch, as the system is currently facing serious cracking issues. After the successor of the Switch is released, they will directly abandon the Switch due to their excessive protection of copyright. This is Nintendo's approach.