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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

After hearing the Mario Movie did amazingly well at the box office on opening night, it seems a lock that it will be a financial success. Which again brings me back to pricing for Switch 2. This time around Nintendo is going to have a few more revenue streams than last gen (theme park, movie, and mobile games) Could they safely afford to sell at a slight loss this time around? I’m hoping so, not for affordability, but for a bit more advanced tech for a lower price (LPDDR5X, bigger emmc, etc.) yes, these decisions were already made months ago, and Nintendo would have had to gamble with unknowns back then, but the price of REDACTED can change late in the game, right? $399 looks a lot better than $449.
Nintendo can afford to sell at a loss, far easier than other companies, even ignoring all of their other revenue streams.

The reason? Their games sell. Not just well, extremely well. Just have a couple of games crossgen and your launch period is solid gold.
 
After hearing the Mario Movie did amazingly well at the box office on opening night, it seems a lock that it will be a financial success. Which again brings me back to pricing for Switch 2. This time around Nintendo is going to have a few more revenue streams than last gen (theme park, movie, and mobile games) Could they safely afford to sell at a slight loss this time around?
What they can afford to do and what is the financial "best" move are different things. Short term wins like good sales on Zelda or the Mario Movie are different from long term increases in revenue, or reliable revenue streams, and pricing their console for the next 7 years based on a single successful year is probably not a wise move.

I think Nintendo might sell at a loss simply because inflation may drive the price/profitability numbers away from their original target and moving units in the short term is more important than short term profit, but I doubt they'll position the device as a long term loss unless they absolutely have to.

I'm betting on $400 because, adjusted for inflation, that has been the launch price of basically every TV console they've ever made, dating back to the GameCube, and there is every reason to believe that is how much REDACTED would cost.
 
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FSR 1.0 (and I'm emphasizing the 1.0 nature here) has a bad temporal stability problem. That's not surprising as it is trying hard to push the scaling factor. I don't think stills make FSR's flaws clear, but I also think how poorly FSR interacts with cel shading is obvious in even the stills. Breath of the Wild, like most Nintendo games, is built for sharpness, and I think FSR looks particularly awful, though I admit that is personal preference

The reason it's pretty clear that Tears isn't using FSR 1.0, despite the YouTube compression artifacts, is that while YouTube compression can eliminate the smoothness FSR adds, it can't eliminate the temporal instability. My eye isn't so trained that I'm 100% convinced, but I don't see any of FSR 1.0's tell-tale wobble. it would be easier if we had any rain effects in the video we've seen, where Breath of the Wild has a particularly obvious aliasing fizz that is distinctively different from FSR's temporal artifacting.
Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's something to do with Yuzu's implementation of FSR, but I really don't see much in the way of temporal instability when playing. No real wobble at all, discounting the wobble that's obviously just caused by the underlying graphics having no anti-aliasing. Maybe one or two bits in menus, but Nintendo almost always render the UI on top of the 3D graphics, so they'd have the advantage of not applying it to the menus.

And besides, the temporal instability of having no anti-aliasing is already terrible. I'd say that obviously FSR is noticeably worse than native rendering, but it's not worse than rendering the same image at the same resolution using bilinear upscaling.
 
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After hearing the Mario Movie did amazingly well at the box office on opening night, it seems a lock that it will be a financial success. Which again brings me back to pricing for Switch 2. This time around Nintendo is going to have a few more revenue streams than last gen (theme park, movie, and mobile games) Could they safely afford to sell at a slight loss this time around? I’m hoping so, not for affordability, but for a bit more advanced tech for a lower price (LPDDR5X, bigger emmc, etc.) yes, these decisions were already made months ago, and Nintendo would have had to gamble with unknowns back then, but the price of REDACTED can change late in the game, right? $399 looks a lot better than $449.
The fact that consumers are willing to pay $299 for the OG Switch and $349 for the OLED pretty much incentives Nintendo to sell the Switch 2 at $399. If they gave a simple Switch refresh a $50 premium, they can sell a successor at a $100 premium. Especially if said successor has brand new chips instead of the two year old tech the 2017 Switch had. In terms of product differentiation, it also helps them make the Switch 2 standout as a successor console and evade the Wii U era hiccups.

So Nintendo has zero reasons to sell at a loss. If anything, they MAY discount already existing Switch models to get rid of that inventory so Switch 2 space.
 
Except for, you know, the fact that the device could (should) cost more than $400 for them to produce.
It'll likely cost more than 400 bucks to make, but we actually just... don't know. $399 makes sense on paper to sell for, and it makes is extremely competitive with the nextgen consoles. However, Nintendo could benefit from selling at a loss due to the sheer amount of game sales they make in recent years.
Additionally there's the fact that the original Switch still exists. They can make money off the sales from that system to make up the potential losses made from the Switch 2.

Idk, the choice is theirs.
 
Very nice comparisons @alfiehicks , it's always good when people can support their argument with actual data.

Nintendo has a good thing going on with Xenoblade 3 and its apparently custom upscaling solution. I wonder why they didn't use it for Zelda.
 
Nintendo can afford to sell at a loss, far easier than other companies, even ignoring all of their other revenue streams.
This is absolutely untrue. Microsoft is a 2.15 trillion dollar company. Nintendo is ~50 billion. If the Xbox consoles were as profitable per unit as the Switch, instead of operating at a loss, they would still make so little money that they would not be listed on Microsoft's annual balance sheet.

Sony is a giant media company. Spiderman alone makes Sony enough money that the loss on Playstation 5 hardware is effectively a write-off on the No Way Home marketing budget.

This is why the success of the Super Mario Bros. Movie is not enough to move the needle on REDACTED prices.
 
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Have they ever really marketed the legacy editions, though? If they're tweeting about it on the main NOA account, then surely it has to be a bigger deal than a literal reskin, right?
I mean Nintendo had FIFA Legacy Edition as their NSO game trial just a few weeks ago. Does that count as marketing?
 
My guess is this is in response to the fact that the NSO trial of FIFA Legacy was causing the game to bump up to #7 on the e-shop’s bestsellers.

Which is depressing because it means EA is getting rewarded for their Legacy edition bullshit.

No it's cause EA Sports FC (EA's new soccer brand) was officially announced like 30 min before Nintendo tweeted that.

 
I mean Nintendo had FIFA Legacy Edition as their NSO game trial just a few weeks ago. Does that count as marketing?
Not really. I checked for myself, and no, they haven't done a tweet hyping up an upcoming Fifa release on Switch since Fifa 18...

...which was the last non-legacy edition

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
 
This means nothing.
For marketing purpose, nobody at NoA will add the word ‘legacy’ in such a tweet.
And most importantly, it's not the next Fifa, it's the first game of a new license that didn't exist before, so there's literally no "legacy".
 
Indeed.

I imagine Metroid Prime 4 could be a showcase for lighting as well.

Metroid Prime 4 will be an interesting one, assuming it is cross-gen and doesn't sneak in just before [redacted] comes out. It started as a Switch game, and even if it was re-targeted as a cross-gen game relatively early, it's still something they have to release on Switch. As much as it makes sense as a lighting showcase for [redacted], going all-out on lighting on the new console while also running and looking well on the original Switch won't be easy. As an example, let's say Retro come up with a cool real-time global illumination technique that allows for fancy dynamic lighting on the new hardware. They're not going to be able to use this technique on the original Switch, so they'll have to fall back to other techniques like baked GI there. This doesn't have to look as good as the fancy lighting on [redacted], but it has to look consistent with it, and that's a challenge. If a room is well-illuminated from indirect light on [redacted], it shouldn't be pitch black on Switch.

This becomes trickier the more you leverage [redacted] version's dynamic lighting for dramatic effect. Say you have a scene where you want to gradually let in light, say from a window or door slowly opening, as a dramatic reveal for whatever's inside. Fancy dynamic GI handles this well with few issues, but it'll be more work on the original Switch. You can't use static baked GI, because it won't respond to the change in illumination of the scene. If everything's scripted, then maybe you can bake lighting for specific keyframes and blend between them, or if you're using a probe-based system then maybe you could fade in probes in different parts of the room as you expect them to become illuminated. It's definitely doable, but doing it requires work, and doing it in a way that's consistent with the [redacted] version requires extra work.

A good recent example of this is Satisfactory, which is being upgraded from UE4 to UE5. They're going to allow people to toggle on Lumen (UE5's GI solution) as an "unofficial" option, but the devs have said that they're not going to change the lighting to account for it, because getting the lighting right both with and without Lumen would be too much work. They talk about it here, and also show some screenshots of the game with and without Lumen, which I think are a pretty good illustration of how big of a difference real-time GI can make in lighting a scene.

Also, and this is an opinion thing so... idk feel free to disagree somewhere that isn't here, but I don't think the Switch 2 needs RTX. Like... cool beans if you do add it for select games, but it's far from a requirement. Literally having any game from the current 9th generation (that being literally any modern AAA game) run on the Switch 2 would be a good enough selling point.

I don't think ray tracing is strictly necessary on the new hardware, but as the hardware's there I expect developers (particularly first party devs making games exclusively for the console) to make use of it.

I should emphasise that I don't think [redacted] games will be hitting people over the head with a big stick that says "Hey, look! Ray tracing!". In part because it's just 12 RT cores running at pretty modest clocks, but also because I don't see developers making heavy use of the more obvious use-cases that people associate with ray tracing today, in particular ray traced reflections. Ray traced reflections don't typically scale down well to lower-end hardware and also don't work well with temporal upscaling solutions like DLSS. You can reduce the resolution of your ray traced reflections, but they're already typically performed at sub-native resolutions, and you can only go so far before they're so blurry they're no longer worthwhile. They do scale down with the complexity of scene geometry, but taking a hacksaw to your geometry just so you can get ray traced reflections to work doesn't seem like a good trade-off.

We'll probably see RT reflections here and there where they make sense, but I'd expect more [redacted] devs will put those RT cores to work on lighting, and in particular dynamic GI like we see in Lumen. There are plenty of RT-based GI techniques which scale down well to lower-end hardware, and even a relatively lo-fi RTGI solution will be a dramatic improvement over existing (mostly baked) GI techniques. Perhaps more importantly, moving to fully dynamic GI can be very beneficial from a production standpoint. Rather than having to spend huge amounts of time faking and baking lighting, artists can simply build assets and let the real time lighting engine do its job, potentially being able to see the impact of changes immediately without having to wait for offline rendering. If you look back at Epic's announcement of UE5 with Lumen and Nanite, you'll notice that, although they definitely showed off how good games could look with them, a lot of what they were talking about was how much time and effort they would save for artists.
 
I hope it’s not another legacy edition because then that means the response to legacy edition selling a bunch since the trial was “oh actually there is an audience of people willing to buy our sports games on Nintendo consoles” which would be good news for third party support on Redacted.
 
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Except for, you know, the fact that the device could (should) cost more than $400 for them to produce.
It'll likely cost more than 400 bucks to make, but we actually just... don't know.
We don't know but we have a really good idea. Consumer hardware follows a pretty clear pattern where "upgrades" just match the cost adjustments that happen in the rest of the hardware market.

8GB of RAM costs as much now as 4GB did when the Switch was made. 64 GB eMMC costs as much now as 32GB cost when the Switch was made. A 1080p LCD costs about as much now, adjusted for inflation, as the 720p LCD did. The Orin NX devkit costs about the same as the Jetson TX1 devkit did at launch, adjusted for inflation.

In other words, a REDACTED device that looks like the Switch with leaked/rumored specs should cost about the same as the original Switch to make adjusted for inflation. We know that at launch, the Switch was nearly 0% margin, with Nintendo making profit over time as costs came down.

Switch cost $299.99 at launch. Adjusted for inflation, that is $372.71 adjusted for inflation*. Here are the inflation adjusted prices of other Nintendo consoles.

N64: $379.44
GameCube: $336.35
Wii: $370.98
Wii U: $389.61
Switch: $372.71
Switch OLED: $386.42

Look at how close these prices are to each other - look at how close the Switch and the OLED are to each other. Nintendo's pricing has been pretty consistent, and in other mobile hardware (phones, tablets) generational upgrades track with density upgrades in the market. Assuming Nintendo makes "another Switch" then we can make good guesses about manufacturing costs, likely upgrades, launch price and profitability.

This talk of 450-500 dollar SKUs are either pessimistic about pricing or extremely optimistic on specs. And the folks who think that Nintendo can ignore inflation and sell REDACTED at essentially a price cut over the original Switch (by keeping the MSRP the same), are ignoring the fact that Nintendo simply doesn't have the large number of parallel revenue streams of it's competitors, none of whom are video game companies first.

Nintendo will launch their next piece of hardware at $350-400. They may take a slight loss or make a slight profit depending on where they splurge on better-than-market upgrades (12GB of RAM, more storage, an OLED screen, for example), or where inflation and the exchange rate take them. But ballparking it all is pretty easy.

*These numbers are a couple months old, actually, but a quick check suggests that they've come down a couple dollars, but are otherwise consistent
 
Not really. The Steam Deck is sold at that price, at a loss, and I want it to be more powerful than the Steam Deck.
What does more powerful than the Steam Deck mean to you?

More powerful in handheld mode? More powerful in docked mode? More powerful at the CPU level? At the GPU level? RAM speed? Quantity? Storage access speed? Do you ignore DLSS/RT or is that part of your measuring.

Steam Deck to Switch isn't apples to oranges, its apples to tomatoes. Still both technically fruits, and I ate both in my salad today, but not really comparable. How much it costs to squeeze a gaming PC into a handheld, and how much power developers need for a system that can, by design, never have exclusives or be directly targeted is vastly different from making a gaming tablet that can plug into a TV, that, by design, provides developers with a custom platform for optimizations and has a massive studio making exclusives.
 
What does more powerful than the Steam Deck mean to you?

More powerful in handheld mode? More powerful in docked mode? More powerful at the CPU level? At the GPU level? RAM speed? Quantity? Storage access speed? Do you ignore DLSS/RT or is that part of your measuring.

Steam Deck to Switch isn't apples to oranges, its apples to tomatoes. Still both technically fruits, and I ate both in my salad today, but not really comparable. How much it costs to squeeze a gaming PC into a handheld, and how much power developers need for a system that can, by design, never have exclusives or be directly targeted is vastly different from making a gaming tablet that can plug into a TV, that, by design, provides developers with a custom platform for optimizations and has a massive studio making exclusives.
Yeah, I'm fully aware that it's not apples-to-apples. What I mean is that I want it to make the funny pictures on the glowy rectangle look nicer 😎

But seriously - I'm not really talking about anything specific, I just generally want it to be capable of running games at a higher level of visual fidelity than the Steam Deck can.

And I'm mostly talking about docked mode - the Deck's perfomance as a handheld is excellent: I'd be happy if [REDACTED] matches it in handheld mode.
 
We don't know but we have a really good idea. Consumer hardware follows a pretty clear pattern where "upgrades" just match the cost adjustments that happen in the rest of the hardware market.

8GB of RAM costs as much now as 4GB did when the Switch was made. 64 GB eMMC costs as much now as 32GB cost when the Switch was made. A 1080p LCD costs about as much now, adjusted for inflation, as the 720p LCD did. The Orin NX devkit costs about the same as the Jetson TX1 devkit did at launch, adjusted for inflation.

In other words, a REDACTED device that looks like the Switch with leaked/rumored specs should cost about the same as the original Switch to make adjusted for inflation. We know that at launch, the Switch was nearly 0% margin, with Nintendo making profit over time as costs came down.

Switch cost $299.99 at launch. Adjusted for inflation, that is $372.71 adjusted for inflation*. Here are the inflation adjusted prices of other Nintendo consoles.

N64: $379.44
GameCube: $336.35
Wii: $370.98
Wii U: $389.61
Switch: $372.71
Switch OLED: $386.42

Look at how close these prices are to each other - look at how close the Switch and the OLED are to each other. Nintendo's pricing has been pretty consistent, and in other mobile hardware (phones, tablets) generational upgrades track with density upgrades in the market. Assuming Nintendo makes "another Switch" then we can make good guesses about manufacturing costs, likely upgrades, launch price and profitability.

This talk of 450-500 dollar SKUs are either pessimistic about pricing or extremely optimistic on specs. And the folks who think that Nintendo can ignore inflation and sell REDACTED at essentially a price cut over the original Switch (by keeping the MSRP the same), are ignoring the fact that Nintendo simply doesn't have the large number of parallel revenue streams of it's competitors, none of whom are video game companies first.

Nintendo will launch their next piece of hardware at $350-400. They may take a slight loss or make a slight profit depending on where they splurge on better-than-market upgrades (12GB of RAM, more storage, an OLED screen, for example), or where inflation and the exchange rate take them. But ballparking it all is pretty easy.

*These numbers are a couple months old, actually, but a quick check suggests that they've come down a couple dollars, but are otherwise consistent
Thanks for your analysis. I’m sure they’ll sell the Switch 2 at $399. What worries me is Nintendo’s thoughts on the general economy for the next 12 months. I think they’re stuck on $399 and $449. Either $100 more than OG or $100 more than OLED.
 
If nintendo were to announce a Switch 2 Presentation for September just like the one from January 2017, what games would you realistically want to see?

3D Mario, Mario Kart, New IP, a couple of heavy-hitter 3rd party games, wildcard.
 
If nintendo were to announce a Switch 2 Presentation for September just like the one from January 2017, what games would you realistically want to see?
First off, above anything else, exclusive first party games. A new 3D Mario, a new IP, something stunning. A clear indicator of why a Switch 2 can deliver far above what the current Switch can.

Second, but almost of the same importance in my mind would be games that are clearly incapable of running on the current Switch. Stuff like Elden Ring, Cyberpunk 2077, Metro Exodus.

Finally, you could show off the kinds of upgrades to expect with things like Witcher 3, Doom Eternal, Xenoblade 2/3, Pokemon, etc. "Impossible ports" shown running on Switch vs Switch 2. Mostly games that have a clear improvement through visuals and/or framerate vs. their original versions.

A presentation like that, in my mind, would clearly and immediately set the expectations for the system with no confusion over why to buy the new system, not just because it's more powerful and brings updates to existing games, but because it has new, impressive games that are only possible on it.
 
I think Nintendo is probably more concerned about the huge number of consumers who might be put off by an expensive price tag than the limited audience that not only knows what the Steam Deck is but also cares about it. On the other hand, the situation may become problematic if Nintendo's internally planned specifications (Nvidia Soc, RAM, storage etc) become too expensive for a maximum sales price of $400 to be viable.
 
What does more powerful than the Steam Deck mean to you?

More powerful in handheld mode? More powerful in docked mode? More powerful at the CPU level? At the GPU level? RAM speed? Quantity? Storage access speed? Do you ignore DLSS/RT or is that part of your measuring.

Steam Deck to Switch isn't apples to oranges, its apples to tomatoes. Still both technically fruits, and I ate both in my salad today, but not really comparable. How much it costs to squeeze a gaming PC into a handheld, and how much power developers need for a system that can, by design, never have exclusives or be directly targeted is vastly different from making a gaming tablet that can plug into a TV, that, by design, provides developers with a custom platform for optimizations and has a massive studio making exclusives.
I can’t speak for @alfiehicks but personally my hopes (optimistic expectations) are that in both handheld and docked mode it’s powerful enough that it can easily get ports of third party PS4 games that were not able to be ported to switch. And by easily I mean devs not having to spend time downgrading assets from the PS4 versions of titles. This is important because it’ll help ensure third party support for Redacted simply due to the fact that many third parties are still making PS4 versions of games.
 
Have they ever really marketed the legacy editions, though? If they're tweeting about it on the main NOA account, then surely it has to be a bigger deal than a literal reskin, right?

Maybe, maybe not. The tweet went up at the same time as identical tweets (with different colours) from the Playstation and Xbox twitter accounts. It could just be that EA is making a big marketing push to make sure the rebrand goes smoothly, and Nintendo don't want to piss them off by refusing to participate.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that EA might surprise us and put an actually decent version of EAFC on [redacted] when it launches, but they didn't even bother bringing the Mass Effect trilogy to Switch, so my expectations are set to zero for any kind of EA support until I see it with my own eyes.
 
Not really. The Steam Deck is sold at that price, at a loss, and I want it to be more powerful than the Steam Deck.

Any less powerful, and it'll just find itself in the same situation as the Switch: so underpowered that it ends up stifling developers' creative ambitions.
Can you give some examples of what kinds of ambitions would be stifled if the Switch 2 was as powerful as the steam deck or a little lower?

Game structure has roughly been the same since the 360 gen in the AAA space, not even the PS5 has shaken that up. Are you strictly talking back end behind the scenes methods of rendering and code? If that's the case then I guess but at that point, I struggle to see what's being held back in this case beyond things just being larger in scope and more efficient. If those things improved beyond the deck, how much room will actually be used creatively if once again, the PS5 doesn't even have examples of core game design evolving beyond what we've been playing for a decade plus
 
Can you give some examples of what kinds of ambitions would be stifled if the Switch 2 was as powerful as the steam deck or a little lower?

Game structure has roughly been the same since the 360 gen in the AAA space, not even the PS5 has shaken that up. Are you strictly talking back end behind the scenes methods of rendering and code? If that's the case then I guess but at that point, I struggle to see what's being held back in this case beyond things just being larger in scope and more efficient. If those things improved beyond the deck, how much room will actually be used creatively if once again, the PS5 doesn't even have examples of core game design evolving beyond what we've been playing for a decade plus
I never mentioned game design.

Even though they stick to weaker hardware and produce games with simpler visuals, Nintendo do still have a graphical standard that they stick to. It would be a lot cheaper and easier for them to keep making games with N64-level graphical fidelity, but they can't.

The Switch obviously struggles with running games that are both ambitious and up to a high visual standard.

And in the case of Pokémon, it even struggles to run games that are neither ambitious nor good looking! 😁
 
Can you give some examples of what kinds of ambitions would be stifled if the Switch 2 was as powerful as the steam deck or a little lower?

Game structure has roughly been the same since the 360 gen in the AAA space, not even the PS5 has shaken that up. Are you strictly talking back end behind the scenes methods of rendering and code? If that's the case then I guess but at that point, I struggle to see what's being held back in this case beyond things just being larger in scope and more efficient. If those things improved beyond the deck, how much room will actually be used creatively if once again, the PS5 doesn't even have examples of core game design evolving beyond what we've been playing for a decade plus
The more of a hassle it is to port PS4/Deck versions of games to Redacted due to having to spend significant time downgrading assets, the less likely major third parties are to support the Redacted.

Devs are rapidly shifting to focusing on PS5/XS development but are still often making PS4 and/or Deck versions of games. If the hardware is powerful enough to easily get ports of those versions that will help ensure more third party support for Redacted.

Edit: ignore the first part I accidentally left in.
 
If the hardware is too weak that porting PS4 versions of games is much more of a hassle on Redacted than it is on Steamdeck then that will definitely have an effect on third party support. Steam deck has the benefit of its SoC being from the same manufacturer as PS4 so
the architecture isn't as much of a benefit as you think it is.

The more of a hassle it is to port PS4/Deck versions of games to Redacted due to having to spend significant time downgrading assets, the less likely major third parties are to support the Redacted.

Devs are rapidly shifting to focusing on PS5/XS development but are still often making PS4 and/or Deck versions of games. If the hardware is powerful enough to easily get ports of those versions that will help ensure more third party support for Redacted.
while these would be issues, we don't have any reason to believe Drake is going to be on this level. you have to work from the hypothesis that Drake isn't going to be uses and something else (a weaker SoC) will be used in its place to make this hypothesis work
 
I never mentioned game design.

Even though they stick to weaker hardware and produce games with simpler visuals, Nintendo do still have a graphical standard that they stick to. It would be a lot cheaper and easier for them to keep making games with N64-level graphical fidelity, but they can't.

The Switch obviously struggles with running games that are both ambitious and up to a high visual standard.

And in the case of Pokémon, it even struggles to run games that are neither ambitious nor good looking! 😁
When you talk about creative ambitions again I'm not sure what ambitions we've seen stifled within Nintendo's first party. The issues that have popped up recently could definitely be remedied with tech on the level of the deck and there's no reason to believe there would be another massive leap in fidelity between what we've seen the last few generational transitions. I don't think theres any reason to suggest Nintendo's jump in capability from Switch to Switch 2 fidelity will be greater in comparison to what we saw from the Wii U to Switch jump.

Pokémon seems to be the exception rather than the rule, and the reasoning is not exclusively hardware related as GF is a big component here.
 
Not really. The Steam Deck is sold at that price, at a loss, and I want it to be more powerful than the Steam Deck.

Any less powerful, and it'll just find itself in the same situation as the Switch: so underpowered that it ends up stifling developers' creative ambitions.
Not quite the same. The Steam Deck is a far more niche product than the Switch. Its lower sales numbers, and as a result its lower production numbers, means the economy of scale is lower. They can very well make something that costs the same price as the Deck to make, but have higher margins and/or higher specs due to prices potentially being lower.

The Deck also operates as a way to get people who may not be fully interested in getting/building a PC into the Steam ecosystem. They've had some hardware experiments over the past few years, but they make almost all of their money off of running a storefront. They don't need the Deck to make a profit or have millions of users because they have an active install base elsewhere to fall back on.

That's not to say that software isn't important to Nintendo, but hardware sales are more important to them than they are to Valve. Their software attachment rate is obnoxiously high, but the only way for Nintendo to make money off of their software is to get people to buy their hardware. As long as you don't sail the high seas, the eShop can't be downloaded on any PC at any price range like Steam can. Nintendo doesn't port their first party games to PC like PlayStation or Xbox do, nor do they have the other revenue streams like Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo does not have the luxury of taking losses on their systems to get people invested in them; sooner or later, that system is going to have to turn a profit.
 
The bigger question for EA Sports Club is UT. If that is still Legacy then it doesn’t matter if Sports Club isn’t from EA’s perspective.

Nintendo could eat consoles at a loss but I doubt they will unless they absolutely have do, & for reasons not entirely of their own making, even if they have other revenue streams. Why randomly just start taking loses when your already making some money about as close to the margins already.
 
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the architecture isn't as much of a benefit as you think it is.


while these would be issues, we don't have any reason to believe Drake is going to be on this level. you have to work from the hypothesis that Drake isn't going to be uses and something else (a weaker SoC) will be used in its place to make this hypothesis work
Then Nintendo will have to hope that first party and indie games are enough to make Redacted sell as well as its predecessor, which is entirely possible but it’s looking like Nintendo will be facing much more handheld competition than the switch did.
 
I don't think theres any reason to suggest Nintendo's jump in capability from Switch to Switch 2 fidelity will be greater in comparison to what we saw from the Wii U to Switch jump.
What are you smoking?!

The Switch is in the same technological generation as the Wii U! It's only just slightly more powerful than a console that wasn't even on par with the Xbox 360!

The next console from Nintendo is going to be the single biggest generational leap we've seen in recent memory. The Switch is so woefully underpowered that it's impossible for that to not be the case.
 
Then Nintendo will have to hope that first party and indie games are enough to make Redacted sell as well as its predecessor, which is entirely possible but it’s looking like Nintendo will be facing much more handheld competition than the switch did.
I mean I really don't know if they will. The Deck is still incredibly niche so I highly doubt these glorified streaming handhelds and deck competitors will do better than the STEAM one. And then PlayStation if true, streaming only is more niche than handheld PCs for a mass market especially if you need a $400 PS5 ontop of whatever they charge for it.

And the reality is, none of these will have the next Mario, Zelda, or Pokémon
 
Then Nintendo will have to hope that first party and indie games are enough to make Redacted sell as well as its predecessor, which is entirely possible but it’s looking like Nintendo will be facing much more handheld competition than the switch did.
There is no handheld that can provide the value that Nintendo will be able to. Valve will be the closest, but they intentionally suppress their output in addition to being a general pc rather than a dedicated system. All these other handheld pcs suffer the same issue but worse because they have to make money on hardware. The Sony handheld will be an expensive ps5 accessory first and won't get its own games.

There's no relevant competition other than Nintendo fucking up.
 
Yeah, I'm fully aware that it's not apples-to-apples. What I mean is that I want it to make the funny pictures on the glowy rectangle look nicer 😎

But seriously - I'm not really talking about anything specific, I just generally want it to be capable of running games at a higher level of visual fidelity than the Steam Deck can.

And I'm mostly talking about docked mode - the Deck's perfomance as a handheld is excellent: I'd be happy if [REDACTED] matches it in handheld mode.
I can’t speak for @alfiehicks but personally my hopes (optimistic expectations) are that in both handheld and docked mode it’s powerful enough that it can easily get ports of third party PS4 games that were not able to be ported to switch. And by easily I mean devs not having to spend time downgrading assets from the PS4 versions of titles. This is important because it’ll help ensure third party support for Redacted simply due to the fact that many third parties are still making PS4 versions of games.
Exceeding Steam Deck when docked is basically a given. Steam Deck doesn't get "more powerful" when docked, it's the same handheld just with an external screen. A PS4 is still more powerful than the Steam Deck in raw performance, and I think getting there in docked mode is underutilizing T239 by a lot.

Handheld mode is a bit more of an open question, but @Thraktor has made a compelling argument about optimum battery life for T239 that would set the minimum handheld performance somewhere in the middle of Steam Deck's performance range - Steam Deck doesn't have one flat performance level.

Steam Deck's cost is driven up by lots of things that aren't REDACTED issues. It has to have Zen CPUs in order to run PC games. Zen CPUs eat power like crazy, and generate craploads of heat. That means a bigger battery - 40Wh over the Switch's 16Wh - and a bigger fan. It also means it weighs more, about twice as much as an OLED model, which means, yeah, twice the shipping costs. It's got a custom screen, trackpads and joysticks with capacitive touch, and 16GB of RAM.

Nintendo has some disadvantages, too - the joycons need their own batteries, that rail is tricky to manufacture, it's gotta ship a docking system which the Deck doesn't need and sells separately. But Nintendo has huge architectural advantages.

I don't know exactly what hardware Nintendo will ultimately ship, but outperforming the Steam Deck and the PS4 when plugged into a TV is something that Nintendo can do without taking a beating on the hardware cost.
 
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What are you smoking?!

The Switch is in the same technological generation as the Wii U! It's only just slightly more powerful than a console that wasn't even on par with the Xbox 360!
I don't have much input on the overall conversation at hand but I gotta jump in and say the Wii U was definitely more powerful than the X360. More RAM, slightly more FLOPs (352 vs 240 from what I've found), and at the time the system came out most ports were running better on WiiU, with better lighting, particle effects, and in some cases more characters able to be rendered on screen.
 
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No it wasn't. In some ways, it was, but it wasn't better than the Xbox 360 as a whole.
Sorry, I went back and edited my post before I saw you responded, but I went ahead and found and listed the ways in which it's better and I'm not sure how it wasn't better "as a whole" with all those things. In what way do you mean "as a whole" if the specs were better and the games ran better?
 
I don't have much input on the overall conversation at hand but I gotta jump in and say the Wii U was definitely more powerful than the X360. More RAM, slightly more FLOPs (352 vs 240 from what I've found), and more RAM. And at the time the system came out most ports were running better on WiiU, with better lighting, particle effects, and in some cases more characters able to be rendered on screen.
Similar CPU, MUCH better GPU.

The Wii U's main CPU was a total mess, but the GPU in 2012? Wasn't terrible, actually.
 
No it wasn't. In some ways, it was, but it wasn't better than the Xbox 360 as a whole.
Only place it lagged behind was the CPU. A crucial disadvantage, yeah, but it had a much newer and faster GPU, as well as 4x more memory and double the bandwidth.
 
Sorry, I went back and edited my post before I saw you responded, but I went ahead and found and listed the ways in which it's better and I'm not sure how it wasn't better "as a whole" with all those things. In what way do you mean "as a whole" if the specs were better and the games ran better?
It didn't NECESSARILY run games better, since the CPU was slower (better in other ways, but slow). It did have a lot more juice on hand.

If we think of Nintendo Switch as "about 2 Wii Us", Wii U was "about 2 360s".

Now [REDACTED] is no less than SIX Nintendo Switches, likely more. It's one of Nintendo's largest generational leaps in pure compute.
 
It didn't NECESSARILY run games better, since the CPU was slower (better in other ways, but slow). It did have a lot more juice on hand.

If we think of Nintendo Switch as "about 2 Wii Us", Wii U was "about 2 360s".

Now [REDACTED] is no less than SIX Nintendo Switches, likely more. It's one of Nintendo's largest generational leaps in pure compute.
I just remember reading a lot of reviews at the time that pointed out a lot of ways in which ports on WiiU were superior, so as far as what the CPU held back I don't know, again I'm just going off memory from the time.

But yeah, WiiU was a small jump over its generation, Switch was a small jump over WiiU, then Drake aughta be an absolute leapfrog.
 
Please read this new, consolidated staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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