winstein
Bob-omb
Does it mean that the development team might not all be listed, as in it's not the full credits? Also, does it mean that Kyoto Report is not wholly reliable?
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StarTopic Nintendo First Party Software Development |ST| Nintendo Party Superstars
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Thank you for reading.
Nemesis24
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I dont understand, I thought EPD2 dont develop their own games and just produce them? are they now co-developing titles too?
Adulfzen
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So I'm reading conflicting reports in the last page, is ArtePiazza the main development team behind the remake with Nintendo assistance/supervision (EPD, Nintendo Pictures, etc) and Square Enix employees also involved ?
If Nintendo was the main development force, I would have sooner expected them to use their own internal engine/tools that could have probably yield similar visual results but with better performance overall.
If Nintendo was the main development force, I would have sooner expected them to use their own internal engine/tools that could have probably yield similar visual results but with better performance overall.
Gingerbread Man
Paratroopa
Kyoto Report is the most reliable source for Nintendo credits, after official ones, and run by the trustworthy @EAD Ninja. But someone might be missing from the pages of games lacking proper credits (mostly mobile games, and some from EPD4).
From what I understood, it's not really internal because ArtePiazza did the grunt work, but it's not really external either because EPD2 is heavily involved in the game direction and art direction (alongside Nintendo Pictures).
Looking at the taxonomy proposed by @MagiCarbo and @EAD Ninja some pages ago, I'd say it's with Metroid Dread and WarioWare.
Adulfzen
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Not too oversimplify things too much but this sounds like another Eighting/Pikmin 4 situation where the choice of engine was mainly guided by what the third party dev team behind most comfortable with to speed things up rather than learning something like the Bezel engine. (and ultimately Nintendo wouldn't care as long as it gets things done).
It doesn't sound too much like Pikmin as Nintendo was using UE4 in house. Mario RPG sounds like all of it was programmed by external studios. Sounds more like the way Mistwalker developed games
TheMoon
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it's all because of Reggie being buddies with Geoff that they even brought significant stuff in the past.
(also, y'all, if we're including stuff like bravely and third party games that happen to be exclusive like ghosts n goblins, then yea sure they'll have something I guess)
I mean, EPD Ninja literally said EPD2 "-production" - EPD1/2 games still have co-directors and such on the projects, depending on the title.
boodream
Paratroopa
I’m not thinking of new games but rather HD remasters that could complete the schedule of the first half of 2024. I’m thinking mainly of Prime 2/3 or WW/TP HD to target licenses that are of particular interest to Games Awards followers. Xenoblade chronicles x would be another candidate, but it might speak a little less to a western audience.
Nintendo is also using and teaching Unity in house since WiiU era
Yes, I know. But it doesn't seem like this is one of those games. I haven't seen the full credits list yet though
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
maybe for this TGA, Nintendo will anounce the next remake of the Legend of Zelda franchise or something minor like a indie game
TheMoon
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None of this is something they would reveal(!) at TGA. This is Nintendo Direct content. If they'd announced it somewhere already and we'd be due a new trailer, sure. Maybe. Low chance but maybe.
Otherwise no. Again, expect something on the scale of "we're publishing this game for Square Enix again because they can't be arsed" or some random third party license collab. Or I guess if y'all count random third party games that happen to be exclusive or games that have marketing deals with Nintendo as "Nintendo at TGA" then like a Demon's Crest HD remaster or whatever.
Reveals of core new (incl. remaster stuff) Nintendo IP projects? Hard no, not happening at any Keighleys.
100% no. Absolutely no chance.
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
agreed, i saw people delusional expecting a huge anouncement for Nintendo at TGA 2023, that will never happen even if Tears of the Kingdom win GOTY,
boodream
Paratroopa
We'll see. I'm not talking about third-party games at all, which are outside the scope of this thread. On the other hand, I think that finally getting those long-awaited remasters in the first half of 2024 is a fairly credible hypothesis since this kind of release lends itself well to filling the schedule . Perhaps, as you say, this will happen during an upcoming Nintendo direct, but the reason I'm asking people feeling about TGA is twofold:
1) I want to think that the next Direct will announce Nintendo's new console, and will focus on announcements of titles that will accompany its release.
2) it's possible that Nintendo will be heavily featured at the ceremony (with several games nominated/possibly awarded), and this is basically free marketing exposure to use.
From what I have seen, all the management/directors positions and much of the work is done by EPD and Nintendo Pictures, it seems like a development like those of Mistwalker or Pikmin 4, where an external studio (in this case Artepiazza) was hired to provide manpower support to an internal project.
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TheMoon
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Consoles don't get announced in Directs amidst a bunch of games. That's a trailer drop across all socials (like Switch) or press event.
Again, look at how they've handled this show in the past. They don't care how many GOTYs they have in the bag. That's not gonna give their trailer more views. They simply don't need this show. Whatever they've given Geoff before was more a favor for him and his show and otherwise fit the marketing schedule nicely.
They're currently all set through March, they don't really need to announce anything right now until it's time for the Q2/3 line-up preview around February again.
The reason I'm shooting this always down so hardline is that history has shown us fairly clearly how to evaluate this and expecting anything of larger significance is unrealistic. Though I'm very sure we'll get another round of insiders who don't actually know this sort of thing run around banging on doors about having heard it's a great time to announce that WW/TP HD bundle that totally exists this time. A new trailer for Splat3 Side Order DLC? Would be weird, but sure. Anything we don't already know that exists? No.
boodream
Paratroopa
I get your point. We'll see. If I remember correctly, the Switch OLED was actually announced during a Nintendo Direct, but it was indeed a new model, not a brand new console.I should add that I have no particular sympathy for TGA or Geoff, far from it. My question was quite the opposite: I'm looking for an excuse to give a damn 
Yeah it's a Nintendo EPD Production Group No.02 "joint" with ArtePiazza doing main development with Digital Media Lab, Nintendo Pictures, and others. I wouldn't call it in-house, but Nintendo put together the game if that makes sense.
Credits with Tags/Company
The site has been a credit/staff research archive for the past 10 years. I would call it the most accurate - as we research and cross-reference everything from Japanese credits, hidden credits, developer interviews, Linkedin profiles, Japanese developer blogs, patents, to direct information (from developers themselves). A lot of games that don't have official staff credits have partial credits from our research - so they are obviously incomplete but projects we continue working on.
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~okapi
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Switch OLED was a separate announcement. Nintendo has announced new models within Directs in the past, but the only thing that comes to mind is the New Nintendo 3DS and it’s XL variant (first in a Japan-only 2014 Direct, then Reggie pulled it out during the January 2015 Direct).I get your point. We'll see. If I remember correctly, the Switch OLED was actually announced during a Nintendo Direct, but it was indeed a new model, not a brand new console.I should add that I have no particular sympathy for TGA or Geoff, far from it. My question was quite the opposite: I'm looking for an excuse to give a damn
TheMoon
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That's the other reason I'm so adamantly B&W about this. I see people stay up and lose sleep over TGA every year and it always ends in sighing and moaning when there's no metroid or zelda-tier trailer that the social media engagement machine has been hyping up in the weeks ahead^^I get your point. We'll see. If I remember correctly, the Switch OLED was actually announced during a Nintendo Direct, but it was indeed a new model, not a brand new console.I should add that I have no particular sympathy for TGA or Geoff, far from it. My question was quite the opposite: I'm looking for an excuse to give a damn
Switch OLED was a stealth drop youtube video.
the N3DS was announced in a dedicated (3DS) Direct. It had games in there that take advantage of it, but it was about the 3DS hardware (started with the announcement of home menu themes). Hardware announcements like that are generally broken out. What I'm saying is they don't squeeze that inbetween a mario party trailer and indie game #586.
Kyoto Report is pretty much the only reliable source for this sort of thing online. You might not realize it but this thread (in its original incarnation on era) originated from and is frequented by basically the same people
It's where other websites and wikis copy their info from^^
~okapi
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They actually started that Direct with a Smash reveal (+ Club Nintendo rewards), trailers for Bravely Second and Etrian Odyssey which were already announced, and a One Piece game that was not N3DS-exclusive. They didn’t start talking about the New 3DS until almost halfway through the Direct, and closed with the big reveal of Xenoblade 3D. Plus, that was only the Japan reveal. February 2015 was a full-on general, with Wii U and 3DS games, before Reggie launched into New 3DS talk!
Obviously it’s not a 1-1 comparison because that was a pro model rather than a new generation, and 2014 was still a very different era for Nintendo. That said, I don’t think it’s entirely out of the question that Nintendo could spend the first 20 minutes of a Direct unveiling the next Switch and discussing it’s features before rolling out some games coming that will take advantage of the hardware (with most being playable on the original Switch as well). Overall it kind of depends on how much they have to work with on the base Switch for next year beyond March.
TheMoon
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hmm must've skipped over that, I only found a rehosted video of it since they took that down (or at least the link I found was privated)
Nemesis24
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I was looking through the credits for Mario RPG and Im very surprised Square Enix is involved. I imagined their only involvement would be giving ok for nintendo to be able to publish the remake but it seems a fair bit was involved in supervision, including surprisingly tetusya nomura.
Are you conflating other staff? Because the SQE supervisory team is very small.
BooDestroyer
Shriekbat
Remember when Pikmin used to be obscure?
TreeSign
Piranha Plant
Here is to Nintendo doing this for their other franchises as well.
Hero of Legend
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From plucked little sprout to full bloom. You love to see it!
Giancarlo
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Nintendo please do it to Metroid(a franchise amazing as Metroid, need to be successful, that great for Pikimin, no more waiting for a Pikimin 5 until 2199, now that Pikimin has reached a core Nintendo franchise status, future games of the franchise will no longer take decades to release
TheMoon
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re: Metroid -They already have. Besides, Japan is carrying the Pikmin 4 performance here. I actually find those numbers a bit sad with regards to the Western sales compared to Japan's.
Pikmin 5 will still take ages because you know that they don't do assembly line development on these. Pikmin 4 didn't take a decade because the previous ones didn't sell, it took a decade because we had a hardware switch in between, development wasn't going as hoped and then the pandemic also hit on top of it all. We'll be lucky if Pikmin 5 releases before Avatar 5.
Lelouch0612
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From Tezuka's mouth:
So I wouldn't be so sure about your Avatar 5 bet. The fact that Pikmin 4 is on its way to sell 2m copies in Japan gives it a big strategic role for Nintendo in terms of software planning.
Adulfzen
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also if we just went to a new pikmin game every 4 years rather than every 10 years it'd still be an improvement without making it feel like they're making those games on an assembly line.
Maybe even try a spin off game inbetween and then you have Pikmin stuff slightly more often without "diluding the brand".
TheMoon
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I mean, yea. We had Aonuma say something similar after BotW came out and look how that panned out (took even longer^^)
Just wouldn't go in assuming we're getting a regular cadence of Pikmin all of a sudden.
Remaster Hey! Pikmin for HD in the meantime. That game secretly rocks.
boodream
Paratroopa
Absolutely. I'm not entirely sure that Pikmin 4 will end up selling more than Metroid Dread. Just as Metroid is a series that speaks much more to the Western market overall, Pikmin is overwhelmingly a phenomenon in Japan, much more so than elsewhere in the world. Even if the franchise obviously also has Western fans, we know that well here, the same way there are Japanese Metroid fans.
Raccoon
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I think if Pikmin 4 had been a runaway success Pikmin 5 would've started planning immediately. They may have continued with Eighting but if they weren't available maybe Nintendo would have found a new partner. As it stands I imagine Pikmin 5 will once again be a matter of resource availability, both internally and at Eighting (or others).
In the meantime it may be worthwhile to let Kando back out of the Pikmin cave and onto other projects. IIRC he had a Triforce of the Gods 2 credit. Maybe if an outsourced 2D Zelda is going to happen in the future he could be involved
In the meantime it may be worthwhile to let Kando back out of the Pikmin cave and onto other projects. IIRC he had a Triforce of the Gods 2 credit. Maybe if an outsourced 2D Zelda is going to happen in the future he could be involved
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
But Pikmin 4 is already a runaway success for the franchise. Even if they started up immediately & found someone else it would still take somewhere around 4yrs to complete. So, we wouldn’t even be hearing about Pikmin 5 until the midpoint of Redacted’s life.
Raccoon
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I'm not sure if I'm even expecting it in the successor's life. The game seems to have done well but it hasn't been an overwhelming success. Like most Nintendo series it'll just be a matter of what resources are free when
Nintendo's staff implied otherwise, as well as Nintendo's continued push for Pikmin to have presence anywhere and everywhere. the animated shorts are still popular, and Nintendo Pictures are still making stuff with them (the Pikmin Bloom commercial being a recent one). Pikmin show up in Super Mario World in Universal Japan. Pikmin has a new line of merch at some boutique stores.
if anything, Pikmin is becoming more like Kirby: the games do good, but not amazing, numbers; but as a brand, they are very valuable.
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
I would say that for the franchise Pikmin 4 has been an overwhelming success. With that in mind I doubt Nintendo wants to squander the momentum they have built here; so I fully expect a new game for the successor now that they have a studio + someone batting for it.
Raccoon
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I recognize that there are many factors that I don't know here but as an outsider I disagree. They threw a partner contract, a huge production increase, and loads of promotion at the series to only mild success.
Do they? From my understanding Eighting does a lot of work for various companies
This, though, makes sense to me. I'd love to have a better understanding of how well the merchandise has done and how correlated the sales have been to the game
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
For a series that struggled to reach 2mil until recently to now having the best selling entry in the series in little over two months; with a shot to leg it past 3mil? If that is considered only mild success then I question when we talk about some of the other franchises in this category Pikmin finds itself in.
Bandai also does a lot of work for other companies & yet still makes plenty of games for Nintendo. They can be contracted & negotiated with again to find a spot where resources are free to make another game.
Raccoon
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A relevant point of comparison may be Donkey Kong Country, which is getting a theme park and, iirc, a movie despite not having a new game since early 2014.
One of the missing pieces in Pikmin 4's development is the concurrency of those credits. Some of the contracted work, and even some within Nintendo, must have been for only a small portion of overall development. That vast credit count may be spread across development such that only a typical number of people worked on the game at any one time
Bandai also has about 500 more employees than Eighting, but otherwise the point is taken
One of the missing pieces in Pikmin 4's development is the concurrency of those credits. Some of the contracted work, and even some within Nintendo, must have been for only a small portion of overall development. That vast credit count may be spread across development such that only a typical number of people worked on the game at any one time
Adulfzen
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We should view successes relative to how games in a franchise sold historically, in the same way Metroid Dread was still a big success despite being "only" 3 millions.
This is certainly how I expect Nintendo to view things, to put things in perspective Nintendo budgeted Animal Crossing New Horizons with the expectations to match New Leaf sales.
Finally in regards to finding staff, it's entirely possible Nintendo already had plans lined up with Eighting for future games in the Pikmin franchise so they could get the ball rolling sooner than you expect.
This is certainly how I expect Nintendo to view things, to put things in perspective Nintendo budgeted Animal Crossing New Horizons with the expectations to match New Leaf sales.
Finally in regards to finding staff, it's entirely possible Nintendo already had plans lined up with Eighting for future games in the Pikmin franchise so they could get the ball rolling sooner than you expect.
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I think if Eighting are free and want to continue, and if Nintendo hit on a Pikmin 5 concept they're happy with, the game will proceed in a relatively straightforward fashion. The desire is clearly there, internally, to keep the franchise going, and now the resources and development arrangement may well be in place. That, and a solid concept, are the necessary ingredients.
Nintendo worked to keep MercurySteam on Metroid rapidly following Samus Returns because the Dread concept was there to be built up and fleshed out, and given Dread was then a much bigger success, I'd assume Metroid 6 is in the works (especially given Sakamoto more or less said he knew what he wanted to do next). I don't think we should get hung up on Pikmin being a ~3 million selling title. Nintendo are the one publisher who see value in titles like that.
Nintendo worked to keep MercurySteam on Metroid rapidly following Samus Returns because the Dread concept was there to be built up and fleshed out, and given Dread was then a much bigger success, I'd assume Metroid 6 is in the works (especially given Sakamoto more or less said he knew what he wanted to do next). I don't think we should get hung up on Pikmin being a ~3 million selling title. Nintendo are the one publisher who see value in titles like that.
Kando isn't an external producer or coordinator though. He is a programming lead, who programmed the base of Pikmin 4 (after years of working on different prototype ideas) with a few other EPD programmers. They needed more resources to work with their small EPD team so thankfully Eighting along with other contractors helped form that bigger production group. I would call Eighting a good shadow partner because their best work has been co-developing with established developers on proven system/ips (Capcom on Monster Hunter, Marvel vs Capcom for ex.). As long as Pikmin maintains its programming core and a few of the art leads, they could find the same success contracting a myriad of other contractors to fill that role.
As for Kando himself, I would assume he stays on as Director and Program Director for Pikmin 5, maybe Eighting is involved or maybe someone else. Maybe his small core team grows for next game given that the franchise is showing some returns.
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Raccoon
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wait, seriously? woah
alright have him code some pikmin prototypes it's probably fun
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
i believe Nintendo will consider Pikimin a priority franchise, even if Pikimin 5 release on year 4/5 of Switch sucessor
TheMoon
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small correction: Donkey Kong. Not Donkey Kong Country. "Donkey Kong" is getting a new game in a few months (Mario vs DK remake, which in 2024 is basically a new game like how Mario RPG is a new game to everyone but a few middle aged nerds like those who post here [points at self] who played the SNES game). Donkey Kong is inherently an extension (or obviously actually the origin point) of the Mario IP and was featured in the massively popular Mario movie.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Mario vs. DK is an extremely low budget remake of a spinoff that was not that well liked 20 years ago though, lol.
TheMoon
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Irrelevant to the point of being a new release for the IP. Besides, Mario vs DK not being well-liked is a recent thing when they just kept making them with increasingly distracting gimmicks on top of the fundamental acrobatic puzzle platforming.
Superstarxalien
pfp by @ShiiNoctua
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mario vs donkey kong is a remake of a predominantly mario game that has donkey kong in it. it doesn't come anywhere close to promoting the donkey kong brand
