That's exactly what Sony is probably doing with the PS5 Pro.
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)
- Thread starter Dakhil
- Start date
If Sony/MS were to switch CPUs on their home consoles and break compatibility, I see a high probability that they go RISC-V. More development cost up front, but massive long-term savings for them.
MS already mandates ML hardware for Windows 12 and DirectML can be used to make an ML-assisted upscaler
RedSpring
Boo
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They can easily do it but hardware is only a small portion of dlss. They need to train up an AI to do upscaling which AMD has only recently look into while NVIDIA has been at this for years. Having tensor core without an ai network to run is just wasted space that you could have use to fit in additional traditional gpu core
Darknut85
#TeamRemake
The PSP sold 70 millions less than DS and PS Vita sold practically nothing. PS handhelds sold always less than Nintendo ones. I was half joking, though.
AceBandage
WUST Member
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What benefits would a Sony or MS handheld even have?
Neither company produces software anymore and third parties aren't exactly flocking to handheld development. Especially if they use wildly different SoCs from consoles.
Neither company produces software anymore and third parties aren't exactly flocking to handheld development. Especially if they use wildly different SoCs from consoles.
oldpuck
Koopa
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AMD.
I'm sure that Sony and Microsoft are working on it. But for best performance/results, you want that hardware to live inside the GPU, not beside it. It remains to be seen if AMD can/will deliver on that front.
Now, if the three companies involved we're willing to collaborate, then things would rapidly accelerate. AMD has the hardware to do AI accelerated image reconstruction, they just don't put it in their gaming machines. They don't put it in their gaming machines because they don't have software to take advantage of it. They haven't built the software, because it's expensive and time consuming, and they weren't in a great financial position for a while.
If Sony and MS collaborated on a software solution, then it would be easy for AMD to focus on one hardware solution that worked for all three of their customers - Playstation, Xbox, and PC gamers.
NZZN
#Team2023
Assuming the GPU is RDNA2, 18CUs would be 1152 FP32 cores (1/2 of PS5), or on RDNA3 which has twice the streaming processors per CU, 2304 FP32 cores, the same number as PS5.Not entirely relevant but interesting (if it s true)
New PlayStation Handheld Powered by AMD Is in Early Development; 18 CUs, 1.8 GHz or Slower GPU to Maintain Compatibility With PS4/PS5 Titles
A new PlayStation handheld console is in early development, according to rumors circulating online. It should be compatible with PS4/PS5 titleswccftech.com
Even on N4, which Ryzen 9000 is predicted to use, the GPU alone would be pretty big and with the size of modern x64 cores, I can't see this chip not being way too big and power hungry for a handheld form factor.
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Plus, it's unlikely AMD would go for a GPU that wide in a power-conscious device considering AMD APUs have historically had issues with memory bandwidth becoming a bottleneck way before raw GPU throughput, with increased core counts having little to no affect on in-game performance. (see the original 704-core Vega 11 iGPU sometimes performing worse than the lesser 512-core Vega 8 as its higher core count couldn't clock as high from bandwidth starvation) so instead they prefer to use narrow designs clocked higher such as their current largest Radeon 780m iGPU with 768 FP32 cores and their most graphics efficient Van Gogh APU with 512.
RedSpring
Boo
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I see it the other way. Either they go with x86 cpu for easy compatibility and have a worse performing device or ARM to additional power but is basically a new platform. Having it docked would be additional performance profiles. Why put your game on this handheld which requires supporting 2 platforms instead of the Switch which is only 1?
If it's a common API with another platform, then it's more a matter of tuning and optimization than porting, even if it relies on a different CPU architecture. I guess the bigger issue is getting all the middleware providers to port their middleware from PS4/5 or Xbox to ARM or RISC-V.
Shinespark
Bob-omb
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I mostly agree with you, I'm just leaving room for a few mitigating factors that would allow them to sell handhelds that offer comparable performance to their stationary versions. First, there's been multiple years of hardware advancement. Second, Sony/MS sell hardware at a loss to customers more willing to pay premium prices, and so they have a wider range of tech options available. Microsoft in particular, seems like they'll do whatever it takes to sell subscriptions and get people into their ecosystem.
In short, if there's a $650 cap for a device launching in 2025 or 2026, maybe they could offer something that doesn't disrupt current game development.
oldpuck
Koopa
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I am going to assume that you are genuinely unaware of how much of the gaming world is owned by these two companies. Just focusing on Microsoft, who is in the best position here (I think).
Forza, State of Decay, Gears of War, Hellblade, Minecraft, Starfield, Elder Scrolls, Doom, Hi-Fi Rush, Quake - all active franchises wholly owned by Microsoft and made by their studios. That's before they bought ABK, which means they now also own Warcraft, Diablo, Overwatch, and motherfucking Call of Duty.
They need places to sell these games, and they can continue to sell them on Playstation and Nintendo consoles (and they will), but they pay Sony and Nintendo a cut to do that. They'd rather own the storefront - better, they rather you never buy a game but instead just buy a subscription to Game Pass. Sony and Nintendo will never let Game Pass onto their hardware in a real way.
So Microsoft needs a console (Xbox), even if it's not the dominant player, and a handheld (this thing) as a way to sell Game Pass subscriptions. They'll keep selling on their competitors platforms, and if you want to buy games there, Microsoft will pay the platform tax, but you have to pay full price for each game. Or you can play on Xbox hardware, and you get all those games for 10 bucks a month. And we'll give you the first year free.
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Per a(n unhidden) post in the Direct thread, apparently GameStop retail has been... Informed? of the Switch 2. It's not clear to what degree this is if any, if there's any volition, but with reveal creeping up on us, retailers and their employees would definitely have to be informed ahead of times to prepare for pre-orders.
famiboards.com
famiboards.com
Nintendo Direct Speculation |ST7| It’s Showtime People! Famiboards Productions Proudly Presents: What Lies Beyond The Door? Act II - Rebirth
I wonder if there is going to be any news on Picross S+, which is set to include all nine Picross e games from the 3DS and was announced last september (https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2023/09/all-nine-picross-e-games-will-make-the-jump-from-3ds-to-switch-next-year-in-picross-splus). I've been...
famiboards.com
Nintendo Direct Speculation |ST7| It’s Showtime People! Famiboards Productions Proudly Presents: What Lies Beyond The Door? Act II - Rebirth
I wonder if there is going to be any news on Picross S+, which is set to include all nine Picross e games from the 3DS and was announced last september (https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2023/09/all-nine-picross-e-games-will-make-the-jump-from-3ds-to-switch-next-year-in-picross-splus). I've been...
famiboards.com
Angel Whispers
Follow me at @angelpagecdlmhq
Well, the SoC is already there… Nintendo was founded on 23rd September 1889. Or 23/9. T239. But I’m sure it’s coincidental.
AceBandage
WUST Member
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Just because they own a bunch of IPs doesn't mean they make a bunch of games.
Also, calling fanchies that have had 1 game in a series or zero games in nearly a decade active is hilarious.
Sony and MS just don't make the bulk of games that would get people to flock to a handheld system. They barely make games that get people to flock to consoles.
- Pronouns
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I trust that things are ramping up (how can they not be), but I really dislike those "saw some chatter" type of comments. It could just be his/her interpretation of the chatter s/he came across. Ideally that "chatter" can somehow be backed up with something a bit more substantial than simply "chatter".Per a(n unhidden) post in the Direct thread, apparently GameStop retail has been... Informed? of the Switch 2. It's not clear to what degree this is if any, if there's any volition, but with reveal creeping up on us, retailers and their employees would definitely have to be informed ahead of times to prepare for pre-orders.
Nintendo Direct Speculation |ST7| It’s Showtime People! Famiboards Productions Proudly Presents: What Lies Beyond The Door? Act II - Rebirth
I wonder if there is going to be any news on Picross S+, which is set to include all nine Picross e games from the 3DS and was announced last september (https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2023/09/all-nine-picross-e-games-will-make-the-jump-from-3ds-to-switch-next-year-in-picross-splus). I've been...
Nintendo Direct Speculation |ST7| It’s Showtime People! Famiboards Productions Proudly Presents: What Lies Beyond The Door? Act II - Rebirth
I wonder if there is going to be any news on Picross S+, which is set to include all nine Picross e games from the 3DS and was announced last september (https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2023/09/all-nine-picross-e-games-will-make-the-jump-from-3ds-to-switch-next-year-in-picross-splus). I've been...
I'd call all of those active, but I don't know anything about Hellblade or HiFi Rush - I don't know if they're major.
Game development cycles are like 4-5 years anymore anyway. I don't think 1 in the last decade is indicative of much. It's sort of the curse of the expectations set by big AAA games.
PatrykPrime
King Dedede Fan
I think the reason why it feels like Sony and Microsoft don't make many games for their consoles compared to Nintendo is the long development times and astronomical budgets they have nowadays. It ain't sustainable in the slightest and I feel like Nintendo has gotten success with weaker hardware for making good games and not just pretty ones.
Lugia667
Manakete
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yeah outside of Astro (Which is basically a tech demo) you don't really see small stuff from Sony/MS these days. Which as dev times become longer and longer will be an issue
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Ultimately a lot of this stuff is under lock and key, quite a bit of it LITERALLY under lock and key. It's extremely unlikely we get anything like leaked training slides or even photography of such, most of the noise produced by retail preparation will likely be purely word of mouth until the materials appear for display, and that would be after reveal. Frustrating, maybe a little, but I'm happy to have something, rather than nothing.
AceBandage
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In what way would you call Starcraft active?
Because there's rumors there might be a shooter in the SC universe sometime in the next 100 years?
The last Elder Scrolls released over 12years ago.
We might get another sometime before the world ends. Maybe?
State of Decay got a game over 5 years ago that no one even remembers. Again. It might get a new game? Maybe? Someday?
These are not active franchises.
And then you have HiFi and Starfield.
Ones an amazing game that I'd a single entry but hey at least it's great.
The other is Bethesda jank that took too long to make and didn't live up to any of its promises.
Again, these aren't active franchises. They're single games.
They are active developers. We only get a new diablo every decade, a new warcraft - has there been a warcraft 4? - Skyrim keeps getting new ports - I can't imagine that there will not be a Elder Scrolls 6 or a Starcraft 3. Red Dead Redemption was like a decade between entries. We're well over a decade on things like GTA, but doesn't mean they're not active. These are Zeitgeist level properties, and they don't flood the market. Call of Duty floods the market - they have multiple teams working on them and they put out a new scenario every year under a new name. Same goes for EA sports games. Any game that gets a yearly entry is a new map set or player roster anymore.
Active does not mean flood the market. Active means that they're more or less celebrated when they come out and there will always be a next one. Which one comes next depends on where the publisher thinks they can make the money.
Most people buy 1-2 games a year, and one of them is madden and the other is call of duty. I haven't bought a Madden since it was on a the Sega Genesis on a EA manufactured cartridge, and I last bought a call of duty to play zombies on the 360 with some friends.
ohlawd
bruh
fuck you man State of Decay 2 was so good and addicting. I trust the devs to make a brilliant 3rd game
real ones know
I've never played it, but I love the passion about it.
the middleware already supports ARM. Unity and Unreal Engine export for ARM. most major studios' engines support ARM in some way as well.
tuning and optimization is the bulk work of ports to begin with. the issue is that devs will have to do this regardless. a Switch-like setup isn't happening unless the devs make for the low end first
Shinespark
Bob-omb
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270m people downloaded Call of Duty mobile in its first year. I'm not sure what the distinction is between owning and making games, but Microsoft owns the studio that made a mobile game that's generated over $1b on mobile platforms alone.
On consoles, CoD was so big that governments decided it was time to scrutinize anti-competitive behavior. It's an annualized release that's caused Sony to panic about losing. That's just one IP, but there are plenty more that people would enjoy playing on a handheld.
Like low-end PCs? I know that Spider-man and Final Fantasy 7 Remake work on the Steam Deck.
Gobias-Ind
Rattata
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This is bizarre lol
Sol
Bob-omb
Didn't Apple pretty much prove this isn't an issue with Rosetta? During Apple's early transition to ARM there were x86 apps that ran better than on Apple's ARM machines than they did natively on x86 hardware.
If Microsoft, Sony, or AMD can write a binary translation layer that's equally as efficient then I don't see why it would be an issue. We would get to play all of our games on the go and would get the power and thermal efficiency of ARM at the same time.
AceBandage
WUST Member
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Microsoft didn't own Acti when they made CoD Mobile. What a weird argument.
Also would that success overlap to a dedicated handheld system? Did Call of Duty Vita sell huge?
It's also one IP that now has to be on all systems. So, again, would this cause people to flock to an MS handheld?
Out of curiosity, why the Valve boycott?
===
In this age of handheld gaming PCs, I can 100% see the case for an Xbox-branded "flagship" device. Many of their games are already on PC (probably all their stuff going forward). MS ultimately just wants you in their ecosystem someway-somehow. And ofc they have the super-power of being the biggest corp in the world (by market-cap, on any given day).
I do wonder if they would allow Steam install on this theoretical Xbox portable.
But Sony?
I don't believe any rumor that has them entertaining a standalone portable again. While the interest in their brand in that space may exist, I do not see that they have the capability to support a second standalone platform with adequate software. They can barely put out enough modified titles for the PSVR at this point.
They are certainly not alone in that limitation. Nintendo can't pull that off anymore, either. Just too dang expensive given the modern might of mobiles.
Evil Lucario
Star Successor
Nintendo and Sony both found more success than ever consolidating their businesses around one singular platform versus dividing up resources to support two platforms at once. Game development is so intensive to the point that handheld games could be the length of like 5th-6th gen game cycles.
You can already see this happening in real time with PSVR, where Sony barely has any internal development on it, relying on third-parties. It's simply not possible to support more than one bespoke platform at a time.
Not to mention, Microsoft and Sony all do not play to handheld strengths like Nintendo does. This is where without a complete shift in their main console, we'll never see a handheld from them do good. At best, they all move to hybrids like the Switch.
You can already see this happening in real time with PSVR, where Sony barely has any internal development on it, relying on third-parties. It's simply not possible to support more than one bespoke platform at a time.
Not to mention, Microsoft and Sony all do not play to handheld strengths like Nintendo does. This is where without a complete shift in their main console, we'll never see a handheld from them do good. At best, they all move to hybrids like the Switch.
Darknut85
#TeamRemake
Probably because Gabe isn‘t a „pro gamer“ guy like Phil Spencer./s
omniryu
Koopa
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Oh, sorry, lol I need to catch jokes better.
yes, but the problem with PCs is that they have no bespoke optimizations. they're rather high level because devs can't predict the hardware the games are going to run on. devs could do the same for consoles, but then they'd run like shit. those per-system optimizations are why games on consoles look and run as good as they do. but that also takes time and resources
Shinespark
Bob-omb
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The point I'm trying to make is that Microsoft owns studios that make extremely popular games and the success of Call of Duty mobile suggests that there's a large market for Call of Duty on handheld devices. That's certainly more relevant to a future Xbox handheld than a Vita version that didn't have online multiplayer and arrived before battle royale games took off.
I think you're being a bit dismissive of one of the biggest IPs in all of gaming. In a similar vein, I'm not sure how you can ignore Elder Scrolls 6, when marketing a late port of Elder Scrolls 5 was a key marketing point for the Switch. These are just two IPs among many that Sony/Microsoft would be able to market on a high-end handheld.
I don't think you're overblowing the difference between picking what graphic and CPU optimization options that they've already written vs changing to use a different engine or graphics API. Choosing which options they they've already written for PC is way less time intensive than writing big chunks of code.
Well it could push them to have to release an actual Switch 2 Pro this time around (with better specs) for example.
Foltzie
Uncle Muji
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I wonder if Z1 Extreme would be sufficient to run Series S builds w/o modification to existing Series software.
then people should expect worse efficiency from these handhelds. MS, this is expected since their console plans are questionable and there are rumors of them Steam Machining Xbox. Sony, they have the problem of getting devs to go back and make their games runs. Phawx brings up this issue in his video on the topic
So you're saying that Sony and Microsoft can't get wholly owned studios to update their games? I mean, of course Borderlands 2 would never come out on Vita, it's by a 3rd party, right?
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That wasn't just good software or something, M series chips have specific hardware optimisations for running x86 code. Microsoft or Sony would have to design their own SOCs more or less from the ground up, and while Microsoft maybe could, they're years behind on the matter, and realistically they'd both have to contract the work out as they usually do.
A hybrid x86-ARM future for Gen10 consoles sounds like a bit of a nightmare and if the silicon design goes "wrong" we could have a generation of backwards compatible consoles that run the previous generation's games... Just a bit shitty?
Nintendo needed and got their clear break away from the Pico and PowerPC, but they're more or less already in the clear. The only real architectural hurdles for them will be handled by Nvidia by default, and Nvidia isn't exactly bad at virtualisation.
oldpuck
Koopa
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Every single one of the games I mentioned in the "Active franchises" was made by studios that Microsoft owns. Who do you think is making these games?
Forza Horizon 5, 2021, Turn 10 Studios, a studio founded and still owned by Microsoft
Forza Horizon Motorsport, 2023, Turn 10 Studios
State of Decay 2, 2018, Undead Labs, a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft
State of Decay 3, announced 2020, Undead Labs
Gears 5, 2019, The Coalition, formerly known as Microsoft Game Studios Vancouver, still wholly owned by Microsoft
Gears Tactics, 2020, The Coalition
Hellblade, 2017, Ninja Theory, a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft
Senua's Saga: Hellblade II, 2024, Ninja Theory
Minecraft Dungeons, 2020, Mojang, wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft
Minecraft Legends, 2023 Mojang
Starfield, 2023, Bethesda, wholly owned subsidiary of ZeniMax, itself a wholly owned subsidiary of Microsoft
Elder Scrolls: Blades, 2020, Bethesda
Elder Scrolls VI, announced 2018, Bethesda
Doom Eternal, 2020, id Software, a wholly owned subsidiary of ZeniMax
Hi-Fi Rush, 2023, Tango Gameworks, a wholly owned subsidiary of ZeniMax
Quake Champions, early access since 2018, full version 2022, id Software
The only two franchises with one game are Starfield and Hi-Fi Rush, critically acclaimed games released in the last year that Microsoft has said made them lots of money via Game Pass. Every other game has had entries in the last 6 years, typical development time for a AAA game. And all of these games were made by Microsoft who presumably wants to sell them.
Last year, Microsoft owned studios released 11 new games: Minecraft Legend, Forza Motorsport, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare III, Warcraft Rumble, Redfall, Forza Horizon 5, Mighty Doom, Hi-Fi Rush, Crash Team Rumble, Diablo IV, Starfield
This might be a legitimate take! It might be a problem for them, but it's not a problem because they don't "make software." But Microsoft doesn't need them to "flock" to their handheld to make money. MS doesn't use the software to sell consoles, they use consoles to sell software.
And right now, the majority of the most played games on Steam Deck are big-ass RPGs, with Fallout 4, Skyrim, Starfield, and Diablo IV all on the list. Right now, all those games are bought through Steam, and Valve gets a cut, and the MS gets no more money, despite the fact that people keep playing these games for years. But if there was a Game Pass handheld, not only would MS get all the money, they'd charge people 10 bucks a month for access forever and ever.
That's why MS would be looking at a handheld. Not because it would even sell well. But because ceding the handheld space to a company who will put their own storefront in the way is a threat to Game Pass. They lost that battle when they fucked up the Xbox One, and now everyone is locked into Playstation if they want their legacy library. Microsoft would be dumb to make that mistake again.
MS wants your legacy library in Game Pass, where you don't have to worry if you bought the game or not on their platform, it's just there, for one low price. And Game Pass is on every category of device. There is a Game Pass TV console, and a Game Pass handheld console, and Game Pass on your phone and your tablet and your PC, and your saves are in Microsoft's Cloud.
Gamerz: "I can't leave Sony's ecosystem, I invested $1000 bucks in video games over the last decade, I can't rebuy them."
Microsoft: "Don't worry about it, all those games are on GamePass, you don't have to rebuy them"
Gamerz: "That's great for my PC, but I play games on my TV, and Sony won't let you put Game Pass on their hardware"
Microsoft: "The Series S is $300, and we'll give you the game pass for free for a year."
Gamerz: "I want to play on handheld, and I have this huge Steam library..."
Microsoft: "We have a handheld, it comes with free Game Pass"
Gamerz: "Sometimes I play on the train to work..."
Microsoft: "We have game pass on your phone."
Gamerz: "I want to bounce back and forth..."
Microsoft: "Your saves are in the Azure cloud."
Gamerz: "Girlfriend's computer - "
Microsoft: "Xbox Cloud Gaming with Game Pass"
Gamerz: "I really just play CoD-"
Microsoft: "It's on Game Pass"
The streaming service, the handheld, the console, the phone app - none of them need to be successful. They just need to make sure that Microsoft has Game Pass everywhere, and that Microsoft prevents any other store front, streaming service, or archive from becoming so dominant that MS is forced to share their cut forever.
Valve: "You're not special, Microsoft, we'll take the same cut off your games as everyone else. We're the dominant PC sales platform."
MS: "I think we'll keep Elder Scrolls VI exclusive to Game Pass."
Valve: "...or we could work out a deal."
Sony: "You're not special, Microsoft, we're the dominant console platform."
MS: "You know we literally give Call of Duty away with our console, through Game Pass."
Sony: "Fuck!"
MS: "Hey Nintendo. U up?"
Nintendo: "Yeah man. Heard you're making a handheld. How's that going?"
MS: "It's losing money but it pisses Gabe off, lol. Say, listen, you uh, you want Call of Duty or anything?
Nintendo: "Not really our jam, but it doesn't compete with anything we make. So, sure."
MS: "It would really piss Sony of, and it's basically free money for both of us."
Nintendo: "Already said sure."
MS: "Cool. You're so cool, Nintendo...."
Nintendo: "..."
MS: "Gonna buy you one day <3"
Nintendo "Get out."
MS: whispers "mario on game pass wen?"
Darknut85
#TeamRemake
I generally agree. They‘ve got a kinda good position with all that acquistions lately, but it‘s Microsoft, so you never know. Also I personally would never suscribe to Gamepass.
HankyPanky
Like Like
Bring on the Funcles, Buncles, Runcles somethings gotta happen soon!
I really don't want the redneck and bad uncles.
RumHamRigRunner
Giant
- Pronouns
- any
Sony and Microsoft rumored to enter the handheld space makes me wonder if Valve is considering giving the home console space another go, perhaps under a moniker different from ‘Steam Machine’.
Could run something like an updated SteamOS 4 that includes the Proton compatibility layer that 3 already does. Different Steam Controller/support for many different controllers. Games can be optimized for it like Steam Deck and get ‘verified’ status on the store. The RDNA2 and RDNA3 APUs are already fairly decent in a desktop/mini PC context, imagine something using Zen 5/RDNA4 that is maybe closer to PS5 performance in a form factor similar to that of Series S.
Valve has the experience of making Steam Machines and the Steam Deck, one of which they were actually very successful with so I can’t imagine that wouldn’t at least revisit the idea of a dedicated SFF PC that has a console-like interface that you can play your Steam games on as plug and play as possible.
Could run something like an updated SteamOS 4 that includes the Proton compatibility layer that 3 already does. Different Steam Controller/support for many different controllers. Games can be optimized for it like Steam Deck and get ‘verified’ status on the store. The RDNA2 and RDNA3 APUs are already fairly decent in a desktop/mini PC context, imagine something using Zen 5/RDNA4 that is maybe closer to PS5 performance in a form factor similar to that of Series S.
Valve has the experience of making Steam Machines and the Steam Deck, one of which they were actually very successful with so I can’t imagine that wouldn’t at least revisit the idea of a dedicated SFF PC that has a console-like interface that you can play your Steam games on as plug and play as possible.
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