There were a number of conversations I had meant to jump into a little while ago, but just didn't get to doing so, so here's some of that now.
On Plot and Story
I think people need to stop expecting/hoping for good plots out of metroid games (and zelda as well for that matter), the best you can get is some decent lore and worldbuilding with the prime games. Nintendo's classic games aren't built for that, only xenoblade (and maybe FE I don't play that series) have stories worth a crap (mother 3 was pretty good too).
For a while, I've suspected that
Metroid might best be served by having the overarching story in the back. It sets up why Samus is in a particular location doing a particular thing, perhaps. Maybe it presents an outside force that changes how the gameworld feels. What is happening in the bigger picture, perhaps, contributes to different theming. It could add in further problems to deal with throughout a game or a countdown during which Samus must escape at the end.
But I do think the less narrative-centric take can highlight strengths of
Metroid and of video games in general. Video games are not books. They are not movies or television shows or radio dramas. Each of these mediums has its own strengths and weaknesses, and they are best when they learn to work with that.
I see no reason there can't be decent story, though. This is carried in any number of ways: how Samus reacts to different circumstances, the lay of the world and what it says about its past and however that interacts with the present, different elements that coalesce into themes. A game doesn't need to be narrative heavy to achieve these things.
However, for as much as
Metroid generally isn't narrative-heavy, and as much as I think that works, I do wish it would pay that overarching narrative a bit more consideration. For instance, where
Fusion-to-
Dread is concerned, there was room for dramatic development of Samus' relationship with the Federation -- even if Sakamoto is still intent on the Federation being good at heart. But I was glad that
, yes, Samus is the titular Metroid, the last one in fact, following the events of Fusion, even if Sakamoto had indicated at the time that Samus was back to normal at the end of the game, and I'm hopeful for the implications of that. It's interesting to me that I've seen a lot of attribution of this development to
Dread, when it was the obvious way to go since
Fusion.
On Sylux
His design is very generic, his plan looks incredibly generic (the plot of four prior Metroid games), and Tanabe has been trying to build him up for 17 real life years with no real interest from anyone. 2/3 of Sylux's appearances being from Hunters and Federation Force probably doesn't help.
Tanabe does for some completely insane reason. Sylux got to be a post final boss tease twice now, in prime 3 where his ship was following Samus, and then again when they stole a Metroid egg or some nonsense at the end of federation force and is likely going to be a main villain in Tanabes vision of the upcoming prime game(s?).
I'd note that Tanabe has been pushing Sylux like this, and indicating the intent to push Sylux, but it hasn't done anything to make Sylux actually interesting or provided reason to think that will be the case in the future.
And for how this plays out in narrative, these teases don't even add anything noteworthy for that. Following Samus at the end of
Corruption? It's not particularly impactful and would work just as well, if not better, to just have that play out when it becomes relevant. Stealing the metroid? If you're going to have that be a thing, there's no reason to bother showing it happening; it can be the state of events as Samus discovers them, something that already happened and is now playing out, certainly not an event that needs a whole
Federation Force to explain and tease.
These stingers are only impactful if one cares about Sylux, and we've not been given reason to save for Tanabe's focus on the character -- that and they might suggest a need to fill in every gap or explain extraneous details, which I'm not sure is the best way to handle narrative for
Metroid or for most things, really.
I'm actually kinda surprised everyone keeps talking about Sylux in a negative sense. To me, there's like... nothing there. The character is undefined enough to practically be a blank slate. They could do whatever they want with him / her / them, which is intriguing.
I think part of this might be, as noted above, that Tanabe has had a particular focus on this character, building Sylux up as a major player and talking up how this might play out, but pointing to this with appearances that are, ultimately, nothing. The blank slate is only really intriguing if there's cause to believe it'll end up being interesting in some way.
On World Layout
Would you guys prefer the multiple planets design like in prime 3 or the interconnected world of prime 1 and 2, I personally didn't like the multiple planets design and its one of the reasons prime 3 is ny least favorite of the trilogy, that and how it feels less isolate than the others with all the npcs cutscenes
I would prefer a single, more fleshed out planet. Give it character and and a sense of depth and history, and make it feel like it could be a real place regardless of how unreal it is in reality.
Multiple planets, but every one of them is as big and varied as Tallon IV.
I know that's never happening and I know many people would call such a design bloated. But I can dream.
I mentioned in the hardware thread
the long-ongoing question of whether a system could use multiple cartridges at a time. Consider each game in a trilogy has its own planet, but they also have different abilities among them, which can carry over and allow Samus to access new areas on each planet. It would have to be carefully planned so it all fits together. It would be incredibly ambitious.
It would never happen.
On Time Travel
Compromise: it's one in-depth world, but you zap between the past, present and future of it.
If they seriously stick with the "time travel" concept they spoke of a long while ago, that's the main way I could see them being able to have "multiple worlds" again.
My thought on this is that it risks losing out somewhat on the aura of a time-worn world, with the mysterious depth of an unknown past. It's an element that's easy to overlook but which cultivates a stronger verisimilitude, a sense of place, of history.
That and my general take that time travel is incredibly difficult to do well and is, more often than not, to the detriment of the overall piece.
On the Prospect of Alternate Universes
I used to feel the same, but I kinda want Prime to be a separate timeline because eternally existing between M1 and M2 really limits what it can do. And even if future Prime games were to take place elsewhere in the timeline they still will have to tiptoe around whatever Sakamoto is doing. Prime should be liberated so it can do it's own thing.
The answer is not giving a shit about the timeline. It doesn't add anything of note to the game and hand wringing over it can only ever hold things back.
Yeah, I don't think
Metroid is, as a whole, heavy enough on plot that this is a strong concern. Most of the events and outcomes aren't likely to weigh terribly much on new games as things have been, except that the writers choose to engage with those elements. Even
Fusion gave an excuse for games set anywhere in the timeline to not feature the metroid creature
given Samus is become the titular Metroid.
All it should take is the consideration of how things can feasibly fit and a modicum of communication between teams, and the vastness of space lies before Samus. It's a big system, and most of it is void of established plot details.
I'm not convinced you actually gain very much from separating them. Nintendo just hasn't explored the potential of recognizing the connection.
On the Zelda Connection
Prime 2 also does this, except imagine each area being a super insane Zelda dungeon.
Yeah, Prime 2 always felt like the Metroid game that leaned in the most into Zelda structure. Perhaps a lot of that comes down to Samus straight up collecting items called “temple keys” to progress lol. But yeah, the separation of each area and how you mostly explore one at a time instead of zig zagging across the map like typical Metroid definitely made them feel like massive dungeons
Yeah, there've been a number of times I've commented on how interestingly different the
Prime games are, and the surpringly
Zelda-esque direction of
Echoes is always one of the points.
I like the note about each area being a super insane
Zelda dungeon. Perhaps one could suggest a collection of interconnected super insane
Zelda dungeons, forming altogether one larger mega-dungeon.
I know this is a joke, but there’s actually something to be said for Metroid taking up that mantle without actually having to change much.
Like the number one gameplay/structure complaint that BotW & TotK haters have compared to the old Zelda games is the lack of item based progression/dungeon items I feel, which is like… something Metroid has always done better than Zelda in the first place lol. Like the entire series is built off of that sense of progression in a way that Zelda never was.
On the same note, Skyward Sword almost returned the favor by being the most Metroid-leaning Zelda. If it was less tutorialized and story-gated - and maybe even the three big surface areas interconnected - it would be much more obvious and almost a spitting image of Prime 2’s structure. The “overworld” in that game feels soooo Metroid-y at times
This, yeah. In the past, thoughts on how
The Legend of Zelda might improve in its formula trended toward similarities to
Metroid. It would have made unlocking and discovering new parts of the world feel more organic, using new items and abilities in a similar way to
Metroid. The overworld would have remained a differentiating factor, but even that would have pockets that were more like levels and dungeons.
In some ways,
Skyward Sword looked in that direction, but it ultimately fell short if one assumes that to be the goal. All the story-gating and the lack of using new tools to organically explore in new ways are strong points against its
Metroidification, but I appreciate where it did start to investigate the possibility.
This is how we convince the Zelda traditionalists who were burned by BotW/TotK to buy MP2 remastered when it comes! It needs it
You know what needs to be done.
On Optional Content
One of my biggest wants for the series is optional bosses. By far one of the best aspects of Metroid for me is going for that 100% completion and getting all of those expansions.
Even finding one of the plenty missile expansions is satisfying, but I always think back to how neat it was to find the beam combos in Prime 1 & 2. Completely optional unique weapons. Imagine if they went even further and had those guarded by a unique, optional boss. They could even hide a superboss that’s designed at a difficulty level for players with 100% of Samus’ arsenal
I mentioned this somewhere around here, but this is a sentiment I tend to agree with. Whole optional areas can provide ample opportunity for exploration, environmental storytelling, even lore. They can open up pathways and shortcuts connecting other areas, even as they wind into their own. And, of course, optional bosses are necessary.
In my mind, post Fusion -- well, Dread, now, I guess -- Samus would obtain new upgrades and abilities by absorbing them from defeated boss creatures
I'm not sure who the VA is, but I feel like maybe another take could've been used.
