PikminSnezkov
ピクミン ファン
Hope you all have a brilliant Thursday.
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Rumour Paper Mario Thousand Year Door HD in development
- Thread starter Sunshinemario
- Start date
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Hope you all have a brilliant Thursday.
Dark Cloud
Warpstar Knight
Do you know when the remaster will be announced?
Hope you all have a brilliant Thursday.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
PM:TOK has a jammin' OST though. I had it looping as my background music at work for a few weeks after release.
Decoyman
Bob-omb
Ironically, Rawk Hawk's theme I think would work immensely well in a TOTK style rearrangement.
Origami King's soundtrack was so eclectic and varied. The boss music (just like DK Tropical Freeze) emphasized that Mario needs to include more rock music. Hell I think even Rogueport could have a fantastic rearrange if Snif City is of any indication.
clay_ghost
Piranha Plant
Add playable Luigi side story and I will buy this. Else I may wait for a sales, too many great games to play lol.
I hope its true I’m gonna buy it 3 times. Once digitally, one physical copy for my indulgence, and another physical copy to have sealed on display.
Hope you all have a brilliant Thursday.
Linkstrikesback
Bounty Hunter
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- He
In all likelihood it won't even come close and Nintendo is well aware what kind of games people actually want.
They've not taken paper mario in the direction they did on a blind whim.
I could easily see a TTYD remaster outselling TOK. It hasn't been re-released in 20 years and is well regarded as a classic. TOK only sold 3~ million copies, which is alright but not spectacular considering the massive Switch Sales Boost other franchises received. SPM is still the best selling game in the franchise, and both PM & TTYD's sales numbers are close to TOK despite releasing on systems that sold a fraction of what the Switch has. It's better clear the old formula performed better both critically and financially.
I mean, they kind of did. Sticker Star set the groundwork and turned out the way it did because Miyamoto disliked how similar it was to TTYD and thought it wasn't bland enough. The only business reason they've ever given (only after CS's release) was they thought having two Mario RPG series running concurrently was unnecessary, which isn't the case now. And that argument doesn't even hold water sales-wise as the bestselling entries for both franchises were released in-tandem during the 5th/6th gens.
Smash Kirby
Bob-omb
The same song composer did Powerful Foe and Tearing Shadows, two of my absolute favorite Fire Emblem Tracks.
Lucifer
Like Like
Changing a genre completely almost never turns our well. And they did that twice in a row with PM. SPM still had some reckognisablity but after that it was too different and the battle systems remain a random mess.
The art style and characters aren't nearly as big of a problem as the boring and sleep inducing battles.
The art style and characters aren't nearly as big of a problem as the boring and sleep inducing battles.
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~1.3m and ~1.9m respectively are close to ~3.3m?
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
One, the direction change was not a blind whim. Two, Miyamoto wasn't the sole arbiter of the choices made. Paper Mario fans need to stop blaming him as if he and he alone is the reason for the direction change of games he's not even directly involved in making.
Three, Switch sales boosting other franchises would not intrinsically result in a TTYD remaster outselling TOK by any significant margin. That's not how this works.
Linkstrikesback
Bounty Hunter
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- He
That's not clear at all. If anything, the writing on the wall is they should have stuck to making super paper Mario by that logic.
https://nintendoeverything.com/pape...poser-led-the-way-on-the-origami-kings-music/
Interesting fact here.
Interesting fact here.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
And Custom Robo! Don't let Custom Robo be forgotten before its laid to rest!
(and Pikmin 1 and 2, and Luigi's Mansion)
Vantell
Does several things in the gaming industry
I don't know. I don't think that Nintendo would change designs in this game. But colour me surprised if they do.
Mr Doggo
Anti oof
you know your argument is silly lmao, you re comparing a gamecube game to a switch one.
Metroid Dread in its first three months of 2022 sold 160k. 300K is a pitiful number for a game that had a higher debut, in comparison.
- Pronouns
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Dread was a GOTY nominee. It got a slight bump afterwards and then vanished. I don't think this comparison tells us anything other than that too few people have played Dread.
Mr Doggo
Anti oof
If we were talking about a goty winner then i'd agree, but nobody remembers the nominated games. They only remember who won.
Comparing to another game that had a lower debut and went on to sell much more than the paper mario game: Fire Emblem 3H.
Or Xenoblade, which went on to have much better legs too!
Hell Dread itself is probably going to, when we get the White Papers report. Is it just difficult to accept that it had depressing legs, and that maybe just maybe there wasnt an interest in it after people realized they didn't enjoy what they got?
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I'm not really making an argument or a comparison, I'm trying to find out what your frame of reference for good or acceptable legs for a Paper Mario game is. You were the one who made the claim that the "lack of legs" is indicative of the market somehow rejecting the new style. Wonder how this line of argumentation will serve you in the future.
Mr Doggo
Anti oof
We dont know, that is true, until we get another PM game that plays like the originals (or this remaster) we wont know. But TOK was very quickly forgotten so we can assume people didn't really enjoy what they played, am i saying it is the only reason? No, not really, but it definitely isnt far fetched.
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The game had mostly positive critical acclaim and if nothing else has a good number of people here who sure like it. I think it's a little weird to project your personal misgivings onto other people based on limited data!
O. W. Funnyname
Currently stranded on an escalator for 19 hours.
All this talk about "lack of legs" reminds me of how Thousand-Year Door started depicting Paper Mario without visible legs, Rayman-style.
DittoM
Bob-omb
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PM fans: FUCK Nintendo, we don’t want these new Paper Mario games, we want TTYD!
This rumor: There might be a TTYD remake
PM fans: How DARE Nintendo even think about approaching the masterpiece that is TTYD, they’re obviously gonna make everything paper, remove all of the character designs, make other characters out of arts and crafts supplies, get rid of EXP, include a bunch of arts and crafts puns, poison out water supply, burn our crops, and deliver a plague upon our houses!
I know “New Paper Mario bad” is the prevailing opinion on the internet but we may be jumping the gun here. This is a rumor. And one that I just don’t think makes much sense. As far as I’m aware, Tanabe is still lead producer of PM, and he historically hates RPGs, so I don’t see them remaking classic PM with him in charge unfortunately.
This rumor: There might be a TTYD remake
PM fans: How DARE Nintendo even think about approaching the masterpiece that is TTYD, they’re obviously gonna make everything paper, remove all of the character designs, make other characters out of arts and crafts supplies, get rid of EXP, include a bunch of arts and crafts puns, poison out water supply, burn our crops, and deliver a plague upon our houses!
I know “New Paper Mario bad” is the prevailing opinion on the internet but we may be jumping the gun here. This is a rumor. And one that I just don’t think makes much sense. As far as I’m aware, Tanabe is still lead producer of PM, and he historically hates RPGs, so I don’t see them remaking classic PM with him in charge unfortunately.
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
Fire Emblem had been trending upward since the 3DS era. Both Awakening and Fates set subsequent franchise sales records. Shadows of Valentia was released in the shadow of the Switch when 3DS game sales in general fell off a cliff. Three Houses didn't sell as well as it did just because of a Switch bump.
Linkstrikesback
Bounty Hunter
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- He
I dunno, apparently you think it's not possible to accept that people actually liked Origami king.
Like I already said, you want to know what caused games like Fire emblem and Xenoblade to have longer legs? I already told you; those games had extended support through content released through a long period after release, whereas paper mario was a one and done release. And TH also got a smash character too while it was still in the peak of discussion.
This is the XenoblaDE nonsense all over again, where people swore up and down prior to the game releasing about how it was going to dethrone 2 in sales, that finally we were getting a good game again, and other nonsense like that.
And then it came out, and didn't even get close. It turns out people actually do like 2 just for being 2.
The exact same thing is going to happen here, and if TTYD does get a remaster, it's going to make Origami kings legs look like they belong to a giraffe in comparison.
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
Honestly, given this thread, I wonder how many TTYD superfans even gave The Origami King an honest shot. Not to say that TOK is inherently better or that TTYD fans would necessarily like it for its own merits, but a lot of the posts in this thread are just so dismissive of it. Arguments come off as though the game is Soulless Nothing while Unrestrained Genius languishes on the GameCube, and would surely blow TOK out of the water, setting all kinds of sales records if only it were re-released, exactly as is.
Ozeiyo
Paratroopa
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- He/him
Yeah, the hate on Origami King is wild. Origami King is a fantastic game in its own right.
I played it. It definitely wasn't a "soulless" game lol. I enjoyed the characters who join in on the adventure. The world itself is very vibrant too. With that said I did not finish it because of the battle system. I came into the game with low expectations and was surprised with how much I was enjoying it. But the battle system wore me down, especially halfway through. I'd say the fun I was having with the game was more on a Super Paper Mario level than TTYD but I loved SPM lol. I actually think they'll eventually settle on future paper mario games playing like Super Paper Mario. Origami King is a good game.
On the argument front, are some of you not tired of minging about the same things lmao? It's years of this. The constant back and forth and replaying of worn out talking points is so annoying.
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I gave it a go. Pretty sure I did at least 4 streamers before I fell off. I had had enough of the battle system, ha.
Common Knowledge
Bob-omb
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TOK is good, they just need to stop trying to do weird shit with the combat system and just make it a full action-adventure game.
Rareware
Koopa
I played TOK… for awhile. The humor and everything is as good as it has ever been, but that battle system… turning every battle into its own timed puzzle was just way too much for me. I like puzzles, but I have a limit and TOK far exceeded that. And I’ve played through every PM and M&L game prior to this one.
The puzzle system is easy...
And at least it means that you always have something fun to do for every combat. In previous PM games, especially PM64 and TTYD, the game is basically a rpg, it means that apart the bosses you don't even have to think about what you are doing, it's just random trash combats.
Btw I don't think that the combats are the main thing in the last games, they are more exploration focused games. With great presentation, music, and really good dialogues. Even the story, Olivia is maybe the best sidekick ever made.
Basically what TOK is.
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It's a bit different especially with boss battles. Some of the "puzzles" are supposed to feel gratifying when you do it right but it loses that feeling pretty quickly. It just drags.The puzzle system is easy...
And at least it means that you always have something fun to do for every combat. In previous PM games, especially PM64 and TTYD, the game is basically a rpg, it means that apart the bosses you don't even have to think about what you are doing, it's just random trash combats.
Btw I don't think that the combats are the main thing in the last games, they are more exploration focused games. With great presentation, music, and really good dialogues. Even the store, Olivia is maybe the best sidekick ever made.
Basically what TOK is.
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I've been meaning to! Got a copy. But I haven't gotten a chance to. I watched a friend play through the whole game over a stream. He was getting tired of the standard battles, but the boss battles, music, and Bobby were all highlights. But yeah, TTYD and TOK both hit different beats, I see why one who likes one wouldn't like the other.
Bowser Sr.
Bob-omb
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- He Him
I recall this making me a bit sad as a kid, never dug the art style shift, but I get why they went with it under mere development reasons, I pressume tweening puppet characters are easier to do than various pre-made sprites.All this talk about "lack of legs" reminds me of how Thousand-Year Door started depicting Paper Mario without visible legs, Rayman-style.
MusicProposition
Bob-omb
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- he/him
I’m one of the few TTYD super fans who really liked Sticker Star. But with every other new Paper Mario game I’ve played they just didn’t manage to hook me. They look great and have very good music and writing, but for me it turned out that new gameplay innovation is not very interesting compared to story/character/game world innovation. For this type of game, I find it much more sustainable to have a deeper story and battle system which the newer games didn’t provide. Sticker Star was something new at least.
entut1
Bob-omb
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well believe it or not, with Sticker Star onward they went back to doing mostly sprites for the characters
entut1
Bob-omb
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I honestly began like many others. Paper Mario 64 was my first PM game. Played it in 2016, then sit out for a bit. When PM rumors resurfaced, I did TTYD in 2020, and went on doing SS, SPM and OK from beginning to beating the final boss the following years. The main appeal in PM64 and onwards mainly was the exploration aspect of the series for me (that's what drew me to it in the first place), so the series never lost me as a fan because I could really put up with any battle system they attempted as long as good exploration was there (and I guess funny dialogue too?). It does make sense people in it for the combat would exit the series after TTYD (but at this point the series has not been the same for almost 20 years). I guess you could compare that series as Nintendo's equivalent of Final Fantasy. Several different gameplay styles over the course of the series.
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Mango
Eltit Motsuc
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- She, Her
I played it from start to finish, I tried to enjoy it but it just kept feeling like it was way too childish even for a Mario game, like I felt too old to being playing it. I don't think it's an awful game but i definitely don't think it's fantastic or great.
The highlights for me was the stage play with Birdo, the Disco scene, and exploring the abandoned cruiser. However, that's really about it imo, as the rest of the game felt pretty mid to downright annoying. The desert is a good example of the latter in fact, as it's so big, but utterly barren, and traversing it is not fun, especially when the pay off to the whole big mystery of the "ancient civilization" is some dumb gag about a Toad using various refrigerators to freeze itself...which really on its own merits, I think it's stuff like that that pisses me off the most about the game, I don't like being teased with world-building or intriguing plot threads only to be rewarded with puns and quips.
All in all, I enjoyed Olivia, and Bobby was ok, but could've been better. I don't enjoy the writing however as it felt way more juvenile and silly than any of the other PMs or the M&L games I've played, and in regards to gameplay, I enjoyed the motion control hand segments, and the first two or so boss battles were fun, but the actual nature of the battling was genuinely awful imo.
Decoyman
Bob-omb
Re: Paper Mario sales,
You're most likely never going to see a Paper Mario game ever exceed the sales of Super Paper Mario. That entire game practically hit the Wii like a lightning bolt in the way that it marketed itself off of people's burning desire for more 2D Mario in the wake of NSMB DS, on top of more or less being the first Mario game in general on the Wii depending on what territory you were in. I'd actually go so far as to argue that this is the main reason Nintendo felt palpable survey pushback on the game's narrative focus; most casual consumers likely purchased the game with the expectation that this would be a standard platformer with Mario and pals. At a surface glance it is still the most accessible Paper Mario out of any of the games, until you actually play it and get suffocated by its wildly encumbering Romeo & Juliet narrative.
Every Paper Mario since then has been a strong seller and outside of Super their sales numbers have all been pretty reflective of every console's general attach ratio (even Color Splash was a million seller on Wii U oops no it wasn't), but it's clear that the series is extraordinarily frontloaded in the same way other Mario spinoffs are; the Mario & Luigi series' sales ceiling is Dream Team at 2.62 million copies sold which is generally in line with the sports games Bowser's Inside Story at 4.56 million, which marginally beats Paper Mario's peak although that series in general has trended marginally higher the one time they shared a platform. Origami King got to boast records of being the "fastest selling entry in the series" at first, until its legs fell off a cliff like most non-Nintendo evergreens are known to do because they never cut their prices, though that's not to diminish its strong 3.3M haul.
At the end of the day, while I don't think Paper Mario would be hurting from embracing RPGs, I don't see the ceiling being raised by them. Nintendo's already got to taste the peak and it was from them deciding to push passed the RPG moniker. As for whether a TTYD remaster would outdo TOK at this stage, I imagine that to be unlikely. If Xenoblade DE is of any indication, I don't think cult status benefits repackaged games as substantially following a successful breakout title. Despite a loving remaster with new story content, the game was basically the bacon betwixt a KFC double down sandwich in how XB2 and XB3 were substantially meatier in outperforming the more critically storied original, despite the remaster releasing between those two games (and even having Smash representation at that point).
You're most likely never going to see a Paper Mario game ever exceed the sales of Super Paper Mario. That entire game practically hit the Wii like a lightning bolt in the way that it marketed itself off of people's burning desire for more 2D Mario in the wake of NSMB DS, on top of more or less being the first Mario game in general on the Wii depending on what territory you were in. I'd actually go so far as to argue that this is the main reason Nintendo felt palpable survey pushback on the game's narrative focus; most casual consumers likely purchased the game with the expectation that this would be a standard platformer with Mario and pals. At a surface glance it is still the most accessible Paper Mario out of any of the games, until you actually play it and get suffocated by its wildly encumbering Romeo & Juliet narrative.
Every Paper Mario since then has been a strong seller and outside of Super their sales numbers have all been pretty reflective of every console's general attach ratio (
At the end of the day, while I don't think Paper Mario would be hurting from embracing RPGs, I don't see the ceiling being raised by them. Nintendo's already got to taste the peak and it was from them deciding to push passed the RPG moniker. As for whether a TTYD remaster would outdo TOK at this stage, I imagine that to be unlikely. If Xenoblade DE is of any indication, I don't think cult status benefits repackaged games as substantially following a successful breakout title. Despite a loving remaster with new story content, the game was basically the bacon betwixt a KFC double down sandwich in how XB2 and XB3 were substantially meatier in outperforming the more critically storied original, despite the remaster releasing between those two games (and even having Smash representation at that point).
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- Pronouns
- She/They
No it wasn't, lol. Not even close I have to imagine; being a late 2016 Wii U release, and one controvertial with the core fanbase (the only people supporting Wii U in 2016) at that.
Mario & Luigi's peak is ironically above Super Paper Mario; Bowser's Inside Story at 4.56m.
SpaceGodzilla
Did You Get that Thing I Sent You?
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- him
Yup, according to VGcharts color splash failed to pass 1 million and considering VGcharts sales indicator is always inflated then it's probably even lower then what they reported
Decoyman
Bob-omb
Looks like famous Featured Article nominated Paper Mario (series) on Wikipedia lied to me with its CESA White Paper sourcing. I have so much egg on my face now you can slap a frying pan on me and call me an omelette, and there's no redemption for me.
Thankfully on the second part I can still pull out my master thesis on how Mario & Luigi has more presentational appeal than Paper Mario.
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- Pronouns
- She/They
After like 20 minutes of research i've finally figured out the source of the number! A deeper rabbit hole than I ever could've expected; brace yourselves everyone.
So naturally I started by checking the edit history of that Paper Mario series page; since the number isn't referenced anywhere else on Wikipedia right now (not on the game's own page or the best-selling Wii U game page), nor anywhere else on the internet in general. The sales figure was added in November 2022 (already a bad sign given the reference cites it as being available since at least 2020), with the edit caption "(Added Color Splash sales figures, via source used for List of best-selling Wii U games (The 2020 CESA Games White paper))". Like I said before though, that number isn't on that best-sellers page right now; the only game with 1.19m is Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games; so another edit history search began!
Mario & Sonic 2016 was added to page in February 2021, with the exact same CESA citation used for Color Splash on the Paper Mario series page; curious start. In August 2022, in an edit that also added numbers for Minecraft: Wii U Edition, the Mario & Sonic listing was bizarrely edited to be a totally different game, only retaining the same number... Paper Mario Color Splash. This was eventually caught and reverted all the way in February 2023; but during this six month period of inaccuracy, someone spotted the number on the best-seller page and added it to the Paper Mario series page. Mystery solved; a false edit on one page was carried over to another and has remained unnoticed and uncorrected since.
...except, where does the 1.19m listing for Mario & Sonic 2016 come from in the first place? Despite the Wikipedia citation, it isn't listed in the CESA White Papers either. The first result with this number on Google is a random SEO bait article that, in turn, cites the Video Game Sales Wiki's page for Mario Sports. The 1.19m number is in fact here; as the combined total of the Wii U and 3DS versions, that is. Where do they get this combined total though? Both versions individually sold under 1m sold, which means their numbers never would've shared officially. Thankfully, the number has two handy citations, which lead to... the VGChartz pages for both versions. 0.49 for Wii U + 0.70 for 3DS sure does add up to 1.19m; from the most unreliable video game sales source on the internet, and falsely reported on Wikipedia as coming from CESA and being the Wii U number alone.
So to summarise the full chain of events here: incorrectly cited, false information about Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games was edited into incorrectly cited, false information about Paper Mario Color Splash, which then ended up on the Paper Mario series page. So both pages still, right now, have the same false number for different Mario spin-off titles.
There's one more factor left to cover though; we all love a good chekhov's gun, right? What about the Minecraft numbers added in that Wikipedia edit alongside Color Splash? It still remain on the Wii U best-sellers page today as well despite the other information added in the same edit being debunked. Thankfully this number has a handy citation that sources... CESA. The Japanese organisation for the Japanaese video game industry... with the numbers for a Microsoft game? Microsoft, who don't even share sales numbers for individual games anymore; only player count (including Game Pass downloads)? Where did this 1.47m number come from? We don't even have an up-to-date number for the current Switch version, or any console version of the game individually elsewhere. Surely the source couldn't be VGChartz again, despite coming from a different editor, right? Hahaha
hahaha, ha...
Someone should probably fix those articles.
Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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I don’t care about a sales debate, I just would like to see some sort of traditional Mario RPG again even if it’s an entirely new series. But I know that’ll never happen so I’ll settle for a TTYD remaster, and definitely not a remake that replaces the entire score for no good reason.
Also SMRPG on NSO but that seems even less likely.
Also SMRPG on NSO but that seems even less likely.
Weiss
Unwise
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Okay I hear you but what if I told you that you are a tiny diaper baby obsessed with nostalgia and Nintendo is kinobasedpoggers because they won't make Mario RPGs anymore and your Hat Goomba is dumb.
Does that help any.
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