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News Yuzu devs have agreed to paid Nintendo 2.4 million to settle lawsuit.

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"yuzu and its team have always been against piracy"

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With the open-source codes already out in the wild though, it's more or less going "dormant" until someone else picks up the project, isn't it?
 
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Revolsin said:
ryujin is still on and well right
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For now, it is. People are saying Yuzu and Citra were taken down because they were making a profit off of early access versions through Patreon. If they weren't shut down for that reason, I can see other emulators being taken down.
 
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Koren Lesthe said:
I don't know what's the funniest ; the people screaming that Nintendo would totally lose and was trying to scare the scene, or this post with the devs "surprised" that their emulators promoted piracy and that they never wanted to do that.

Especially not with a patch for TotK one week before release on their Patreon and a blog post promoting it.
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Before anyone jump on my throat ; I do emulation too. Like, a LOT.

I've been doing it for +20 years. There was a lot of people doing it back then.

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Old Koren talking about people who were doing it.

I even used Citra, Yuzu and Ryujinx (I know, I should write a book called "Koren Lesthe & the audacity of this moron"). I tried. I wanted to see how BotW would feel at least at 60 FPS. I should've known better ; my PC rig couldn't do shit so I didn't go far, like, at all, so it ran worse than BotW on Wii U unpatched. I tried to emulate the Turrican Anthologies while waiting for a patch for the problems I encountered on real hardware and obviously I had them too on the emulators, so it didn't help.

For old system, I'm 400% on it. I'm still using FS-UAE (Amiga), CPCEC (Amstrad & ZX Spectrum), bSnes (SNES), Duckstation (PS1), Bizhawk (multiple systems), PPSSPP (if you guessed PSP, you win !), Mupen64 / 1964 GEPD60FPS (N64) and Fusion (Genesis), among other things. I also recently installed a Saturn & OG Xbox emulators just to play Panzer Dragoon Saga and Jet Set Radio Future, because it is extremely hard to first find a Saturn in Europe AND a copy of the game, and also because JSRF run like shite on the Xbox One / Series emulation.
 
Apparently yuzu had a highly regarded lawyer (so did Nintendo) Them settling like this tells me they were definitely in deep shit and would 100% have lost
 
I think it's perfectly possible to discuss this subject while respecting everyone's opinions, and if it's not possible to do so in a place like Fami, that's very sad.

Preservation does not apply to current consoles. This is the very basis of why emulation is not the same thing as piracy. Companies are not our friends AND It's not anti-capitalist to set up a Patreon to make money from the fact that people can play Totk before it's even released, on PCs that cost more than many people's monthly salary

Some of the ideas expressed on this subject surprise me, but there's nothing to stop us always exchanging views with respect.
 
ohlawd said:
it's not just older games. why's it OK to allow people the ability to pirate and play games a week before they're out?
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One thing to bare in mind is when the game was leaked early, it was evident that the emulators could not run the game very well at the time, given some shots we had going around (and recordings by people). Most of the full leaks often came from either people who'd gotten a copy early or from people who pirated a copy on a hacked/homebrewed retail unit. These were through proper captures of the system via capture cards (one odd note, is some Japanese companies consider using capture cards not legal for recording footage and only in-console, which is absolutely a take, given everything, and we've had a recent where someone got sued recently for recording gameplay, which was the first of it's kind, something even Nintendo hasn't quite gone as far for).

This isn't to absolve how Yuzu promoted Tears of the Kingdom at launch (which seems to been the biggest sticking point in this lawsuit), but rather this is just the nature of how emulated systems work when they come about during the console cycle being active. We saw this with prior emulation generations of Nintendo systems, particularly with their handheld line.

I also need to remind people that the Game Boy Advance had a working emulator BEFORE the system even launched, due to a massive leak of documentation on the system. This didn't seem to have an impact on sales what-so-ever (and judging from sales data we have of Tears, even if we look at Nintendo's numbers with face value, which I suspect not accurate or true for a number of reasons, it's such a small sum for them), though I recognize the PC and Emulation space was very different now compared to back then, but still. DS, if anything, was more impacted by piracy, and that was due to the R4 carts that were wide spread. PSP had a similar problem (and seemingly was more detrimental, despite hardware sales of 80-90 million units nothing to snuff at).

Lugia667 said:
Apparently yuzu had a highly regarded lawyer (so did Nintendo) Them settling like this tells me they were definitely in deep shit and would 100% have lost
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Another thing to consider is that this case could've potentially set a presentence, and I suspect Yuzu wanted to avoid this. If they would've lost it, even if they had a good chance to do so, it could've caused more damage to the emulation scene than just what happened here.
 
Losing Citra sucks. Yuzu is whatever, Ryujinx was always the better emulator for accuracy, which matters if you actually care about preservation, yuzu mostly cared to get games running as soon as possible for ..reasons.

I do hope Ryujinx manages to stay alive though.
 
Not a fan of the chilling effect this will have.

Also, if this much is true:

They are asking a federal judge to say yes to this, specifically:

Developing or distributing software, including Yuzu, that in its ordinary course functions only when cryptographic keys are integrated without authorization, violates the Digital
Millennium Copyright Act’s prohibition on trafficking in devices that circumvent effective technological measures, because the software is primarily designed for the purpose of circumventing technological measures.
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Doesn't this whack Dolphin too? If Nintendo dares to go for Dolphin I'm 100% done with them.
 
From what I’m reading it really seems like these morons skirted around the lines of what makes emulation legal and Nintendo was justified in pursuing them. There’s a reason other emulator groups do not put up patreons.
 
BotenAnna said:
I don't really want to downplay the major efforts made by people who want to actively engage in the levels of preservation that need to happen to keep things preserved in as much historical context as possible. I do really understand what that is. Still, I think trying to untie what having pirated media in active circulation does for preservation and media access in general from an academic setting is kinda foolish. I understand the notion of some random person going on the internet and downloading an NES rom to throw on their smartphone and going "I'm a preservationist" is really dumb. That still doesn't divorce the fact that keeping media that is no longer sold or easily accessible in circulation has been an important part of media being preserved since forever. There are several examples of film, music, and TV that would be considered lost media today if not for pirated copies of said media having existed around the time of release. Games aren't any different really.

Again, I'm not trying to downplay what the archivists and librarians and scholars of the world are doing. I'm also not trying to broad strokes paint pirates as folk heroes who are doing the hard preservation work. There's a lot of degrees to this from where I'm sitting and a reality that piracy and preservation will always be tied to each other, and I'm just going to accept it in my approach to the whole idea.
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Posting rom is NOT going to preserve anything, it is just a sharing of pirated rom.
 
Mendinso said:
Another thing to consider is that this case could've potentially set a presentence, and I suspect Yuzu wanted to avoid this. If they would've lost it, even if they had a good chance to do so, it could've caused more damage to the emulation scene than just what happened here.
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Nintendo would have wanted to avoid a precedent too, the case reaching court would have been a massive gamble for them too if there was even a small chance of a precedent of ‘actually, emulation software is 100% OK, you have no case against the defendant for these claimed losses’. As such there’s a lot of theatre here, in that I suspect Nintendo wanted to be seen to challenge it, but I doubt they wanted to be in court either, even if they felt this was the strongest case they’d likely have for a very long time. So we’re back in the grey area of it not really suiting anyone to have a legal precedent set anywhere on the topic due to the risk of it going heavily against either side.

Also I’m not really sure Yuzu cared as much about potential damage to the emulation scene with a Nintendo court victory as just economic survival and bankruptcy vs a company with near unlimited pockets.
 
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PixelKnight said:
Nintendo would have wanted to avoid a precedent too, the case reaching court would have been a massive gamble for them too if there was even a small chance of a precedent of ‘actually, emulation software is 100% OK, you have no case against the defendant for these claimed losses’. As such there’s a lot of theatre here, in that I suspect Nintendo wanted to be seen to challenge it, but I doubt they wanted to be in court either, even if they felt this was the strongest case they’d likely have for a very long time. So we’re back in the grey area of it not really suiting anyone to have a legal precedent set anywhere on the topic.
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Ultimately legal precedent doesn't matter, especially not in the US, that shit gets over turned on a whim. What matters is eventually emulators need to be legalized by law makers for them to have true protection.
 
BassForever said:
Ultimately legal precedent doesn't matter, especially not in the US, that shit gets over turned on a whim. What matters is eventually emulators need to be legalized by law makers for them to have true protection.
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That’s true but companies can pursue these cases in whatever country they like. Agree that no true protection exists without legalisation, which is why Nintendo really doesn't want to be in court on the topic and forcing more legal debate on the issue, they’d rather just keep scaring people off.
 
Concernt said:
With Nintendo, at least from what I've seen, and I may be wrong, so someone please correct me if I am, it tends to be they target things that are replacements or alternatives to what they currently offer, which Nintendo also believes infringes on their IP.

So, fan games that are nothing like the latest game are usually fine, but release a fan remake of a game the same month Nintendo does and it probably won't be ignored.
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At least from that side, there's a discernible pattern that can be derived.

There's of course the infamous example that exists for the unfortunate timing of AM2R and Samus Returns, but another one that sticks out for me is the late, original version of Mario Royale (a browser based game that had 75 players racing through Super Mario 1 levels at the same time) that got DMCA'd likely because Nintendo was preparing the somewhat-similar (and also late) Mario 35 a year later.

Conversely, there's a pretty neat StarFox fangame out there called "StarFox Grounded" that's been available for 4 years, now, and Nintendo's done nothing to it. I guess it's safe to presume Nintendo was, at no point, trying to produce a turn-based StarFox RPG of any sort in the last few years...

PixelKnight said:
That’s true but companies can pursue these cases in whatever country they like. Agree that no true protection exists without legalisation, which is why Nintendo really doesn't want to be in court on the topic and forcing more legal debate on the issue, they’d rather just keep scaring people off.
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Yeah, I think it's safe to say that taking that L from Galoob waaaaaaaaaay back in '92 over the Game Genie case will always make them just a bit gun-shy when it comes to the notion of letting a court rule on something of this nature.
 
TreIII said:
Yeah, I think it's safe to say that taking that L from Galoob waaaaaaaaaay back in '92 over the Game Genie case will always make them just a bit gun-shy when it comes to the notion of letting a court rule on something of this nature.
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Absolutely.
 
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ns156 said:
Doesn't this whack Dolphin too? If Nintendo dares to go for Dolphin I'm 100% done with them.
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AFAIK, Dolphin doesn't run the emulator development as some kind of profitable business (they don't even accept donations), and Dolphin doesn't target currently-released games?
 
Let's not pretend that emulation doesn't help in preserving some games that are too obscure are too hard to license to ever be re-released but let's also not pretend some of these "preservationists" just feel entitled to free games and they're gonna see any legal option as inherently inferior.
 
MisterSpo said:
It's a shame to see Citra getting caught in this - hopefully somebody picks that up and continues with it.
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I think anyone who wants to do 3ds or Switch emulation should stay far away from Yuzu and Citra. It might put them behind to start their own, but you don't want to leave yourself vulnerable by trying to fork off something that has legal action against it.
 
Koren Lesthe said:
or this post with the devs "surprised" that their emulators promoted piracy and that they never wanted to do that.
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For what it counts, this type of language usually comes moreso from lawyers than from the actual developers.

That kind of oddly terse, weirdly emotionally distant language that seems to state either obvious falsehoods or banal truthisms isn't how humans write, it's what you get after a lawyer has checked the message 20 times to make sure they won't get another lawsuit for sending it.
 
jariw said:
AFAIK, Dolphin doesn't run the emulator development as some kind of profitable business (they don't even accept donations), and Dolphin doesn't target currently-released games?
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No, but dolphin provides keys for the Wii side of the emulator to work, which the quoted part of my post seems to enshrine into law as something targetable.
 
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gonna become a RETVRN guy but for this: https://famiboards.com/threads/nint...illion-times-before-release.9030/post-1025969

Folks gotta re-learn shut the fuck up Friday and stop trying to fly so close to the sun. Whether you're actually doing it for "preservation" purposes or the other reason, folks gotta accept this all exists in a vaguely shady grey area and don't make a point of poking the damn bear. Just make your emulator, download your roms, don't have a patreon, if you can you should avoid having anything public that they could even send a cease and desist to, and definitely don't post about all the stuff you're pirating in a goddam discord
 
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Yeah I can imagine why Yuzu didn't want this to go to discovery ☠️

Not only would Nintendo know how many people played TotK early, but literally every Switch game ever. I'm sure a bunch if 3rd party publishers would love that information too.
 
BassForever said:
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Yeah I can imagine why Yuzu didn't want this to go to discovery ☠️

Not only would Nintendo know how many people played TotK early, but literally every Switch game ever. I'm sure a bunch if 3rd party publishers would love that information too.
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These Yuzu guys were really that stupid?

Nintendo would have annihilated them in front of a judge.
 
BassForever said:
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Yeah I can imagine why Yuzu didn't want this to go to discovery ☠️

Not only would Nintendo know how many people played TotK early, but literally every Switch game ever. I'm sure a bunch if 3rd party publishers would love that information too.
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oh yeah they were 100% screwed
 
BassForever said:
image.png


Yeah I can imagine why Yuzu didn't want this to go to discovery ☠️

Not only would Nintendo know how many people played TotK early, but literally every Switch game ever. I'm sure a bunch if 3rd party publishers would love that information too.
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Okay, yeah, if this went to court, they would've been deader than dead, full stop. There would be no feigning ignorance here.
 
BassForever said:
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Yeah I can imagine why Yuzu didn't want this to go to discovery ☠️

Not only would Nintendo know how many people played TotK early, but literally every Switch game ever. I'm sure a bunch if 3rd party publishers would love that information too.
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I'm learning so much, wow.

Are many modern emulators like this?
 
BlackthornOrion said:
gonna become a RETVRN guy but for this: https://famiboards.com/threads/nint...illion-times-before-release.9030/post-1025969

Folks gotta re-learn shut the fuck up Friday and stop trying to fly so close to the sun. Whether you're actually doing it for "preservation" purposes or the other reason, folks gotta accept this all exists in a vaguely shady grey area and don't make a point of poking the damn bear. Just make your emulator, download your roms, don't have a patreon, if you can you should avoid having anything public that they could even send a cease and desist to, and definitely don't post about all the stuff you're pirating in a goddam discord
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emulators used to be made by 3 guys with usernames like supersaiyanmario784, their real name with their birth year and a single cool looking word that they once saw in an anime all posting on a forum with less than 300 users. now we got full LLCs and shit with patreons raking in millions distributing someone else's work. what happened 😠 😡
 
people deserve money for developing such critically important software to appreciation of video games as an artform as emulators are
 
thoughthaver said:
emulators used to be made by 3 guys with usernames like supersaiyanmario784, their real name with their birth year and a single cool looking word that they once saw in an anime all posting on a forum with less than 300 users. now we got full LLCs and shit with patreons raking in millions distributing someone else's work. what happened 😠 😡
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I genuinely think it's irresponsible how brazen some of these devs are getting

stuff's way more precarious than they wanna admit and all it really takes is one dumbass flying a little too close to the sun to potentially ruin things for everybody. Feels like a lot of folks are hoping to start a fight they are by no means guaranteed to win
 
Not too surprising, but it is surprising how quickly it all ended. Wonder what they saw that the people saying Nintendo didn't have a case didn't see.
 
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Here's my take on this whole thing

Emulating old games that companies are not providing official access to in modern day? Go ahead, emulate it. I'm not gonna expect anyone to dish out $300 for Path of Radiance on eBay.

Emulating games that are currently available for official purchase by the company? Best to support the devs who worked hard to create it and buy it officially. Nobody should be able to play TotK for free through emulation right now (or especially before launch!) when devs worked their asses off for years to deliver a project with passion and love. If you're not going to shoplift a physical product off store shelves, I don't see why you'd pirate their hard work either.

(EDIT: The only case where I see this getting a bit tricky is with remakes/remasters. For example, is it unethical to emulate original TTYD when TTYD remake is on store shelves? I'm actually not sure about that one)

And yeah if Yuzu was profiting off of Nintendo devs' work through Patreon and whatnot, that's fucked. Surprised this didn't happen sooner.
 
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