Xbox Xbox is failing so horribly, its kind of unbelievable

[Machrider]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

I'm tired of promises, I WANT RESULTS

 

[MissingNo.]

All I'm gonna say is I already feel sorry for Starfield. I am sure it's going to be amazing, but at the same time, I doubt it is going to be a GotG kind of game that is going to single-handedly turn things around for Xbox as a whole.

Expectations for that title are way overblown. But tbh, as long as it ends up being the kind of fun, engaging single player affair I expect to get from BGS, idgaf.

 

[hologram]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

Yeah you're right, the issue is definitely Microsoft treating their workers too well

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

There should be less passion projects like Redfall, a game that Arkane definitely wanted to make.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

But there is just something so late 90's edgy male teenager about the name Xbox. And don't get me started on the naming scheme for their consoles.. I just think it would behove them to rebrand their gaming business to something that signals more broad appeal and something more friendly and approachable. And less edgy teen boy screaming profanities in their mic while shooting virtual guns.

I was just thinking back to another time Microsoft did a big name change but uhh I guess replacing "Internet Explorer" with literally "Edge" isn't a good example of anti-edgy.

 

[EvilChameleon]

Redfall didn't get bad reviews because it's a passion project, it got bad reviews because it's kinda boring and doesn't really add anything unique to the FPS genre.

 

[Machrider]

Yeah you're right, the issue is definitely Microsoft treating their workers too well

Has nothing to do with worker treatment ... is anyone at Nintendo or Sony complaining?

If you want to make your own dream/passion project, then you should put up your own $50 million-$200 million to finance it. If not, well then you can work on a project that's actually going to sell consoles, which is the basis on which Nintendo and Sony greenlight their games.

 

[Armoured_Bear]

All I'm gonna say is I already feel sorry for Starfield. I am sure it's going to be amazing, but at the same time, I doubt it is going to be a GotG kind of game that is going to single-handedly turn things around for Xbox as a whole.

Expectations for that title are way overblown. But tbh, as long as it ends up being the kind of fun, engaging single player affair I expect to get from BGS, idgaf.

Where are these overblown expectations?
All I see is Todd Howard doing his usual hyping and most gamers expecting lots of ancient engine jank.

 

[MissingNo.]

Imagine the absolute scenes if one of the first things Microsoft had done after acquiring Bethesda/Zenimax was cancelling one of their games that had been already in development.

 

[Party Sklar]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

I mean, your last sentence is correct, Xbox Studios need better management, but if you look at the games from Xbox Games Studios that sold well and have critical acclaim, most of the time it’s passion projects (Psychonauts 2) or stuff studios really wanted to make (Flight Simulator), not games for which Microsoft pushed studios to make a GaaS.

 

[Sadist]

At the end of the day though, I also feel that Xbox, as a global brand, just does not have the “it” factor and can’t pull in consumers.

I mean, as a Dutchie and I can’t speak for others, but the Xbox has a miserable presence in the Netherlands. Sure, here comes Microsoft’s messaging into play again to a certain extent, but the market really pulls towards Sony and Nintendo. Especially the latter made some huge steps again in the minds and hearts of consumers. You just don’t see with games

 

[Instro]

So many citations needed.

I can if needed, but why? Nothing I said is particularly outlandish. I'm assuming you cited sources for any of your speculations or assertions made in this thread then?

 

[ngpdrew]

I can if needed, but why? Nothing I said is particularly outlandish. I'm assuming you cited sources for any of your speculations or assertions made in this thread then?

You claimed the Series S to be a failure and alluded to the same being true of the Switch Lite and 2DS. These are pretty strong claims backed by feelings, I can only imagine, and stated as fact.

My only claims were that the Series X was the best hardware I’ve ever owned, which it is, and that I think there is a place for the Series S, which is hard to argue against when almost every hardware manufacturer in the world offers equipment for a variety of entry points. I guess I need to cite that. Should I link the product page for the iPhone SE? Not really sure how to cite something that seems like a given in an economic landscape where $500 is an unobtainable price point for many consumers.

 

[AtomicZach]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

I mean...kinda? Both the Mario Kart director and the Animal Crossing creator got to make their own stuff. It's how we got both ARMS and Splatoon and while ARMS didn't light the world on fire, it sold well and Splatoon simply conquered Japan. Again. There are a lot of passion projects that clearly only exist because directors want to continue the series outside of sales (Metroid, Star Fox, Pikmin) so it's not like Nintendo doesn't push for passion projects that can take decades to see through, even if they aren't mega-successes like Splatoon.

 

[Uniomni]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

They definitely should if they do not imo.

Splatoon is one of the best newer ips in years, so if the people at EPD stretching their creativity and inspiration get more ips like that, I'd be happy to wait longer for a new Zelda/Mario.

And Nintendo should be smart enough to realize this.

Content is king, and more novel content = more eyes and more wallets being opened.

This is largely why I'm so impatient for new Nintendo hardware, as I'm sure they've got a few new ips ready to splash on the market alongside classic mainstay ips for the longtime fans.

It takes a balance of both to pull off an extremely successful generation like Switch had.

 

[Machrider]

They definitely should if they do not imo.

Splatoon is one of the best newer ips in years, so if the people at EPD stretching their creativity and inspiration get more ips like that, I'd be happy to wait longer for a new Zelda/Mario.

And Nintendo should be smart enough to realize this.

Content is king, and more novel content = more eyes and more wallets being opened.

This is largely why I'm so impatient for new Nintendo hardware, as I'm sure they've got a few new ips ready to splash on the market alongside classic mainstay ips for the longtime fans.

It takes a balance of both to pull off an extremely successful generation like Switch had.

Maybe so, but Nintendo recognizes they need their big gun franchises finished in time for their hardware to sell.

MS has to decide if they want games to come out on time or are more interested in being a hobbyist club for its creators.

There's definitely something wrong when your console is almost 3 years old and you don't really have even one AAA console seller from your internal studios.

They need management that is going to crack the whip more and prioritize game projects that are going to be higher profile system sellers frankly. If this continues on like this gen after gen eventually a lot of these studios are going to have shut downs and lay offs, and frankly that's worse, even the employees of these teams have to understand they have an obligation to deliver the goods for the XBox business, not just make their own creative itches satisfied and taking years and years every time to do it.

When the average person on the Zelda or 3D Mario team undertakes a title I think they are aware they have a lot of responsibility to deliver a product that is going to move hardware and do so in a reasonable time frame. Probably not that much different from like devs doing the latest God of War or Spider-Man 2 or whatever.

 

[Mekanos]

Thats a thing ive been thinking a about
Its been 21 years since the release of the Xbox.
21 years after Nintendo released the NES. It was 2004 and they most definitely had a legendary 1st party stable at that point.

21 years after ps1 released it was 2015 and here you began to see Playstation recover from its ps3 days and start releasing banger after banger (i think the last outright flop for a big budget PS game was the Order 1886 earlier that year)

21 years from Xbox and they feel like they never quite got the groove for thier own software management. It seemed so early Xbox 360 but by the end they threw it away and relied on 3rd parties and kinect to carry them

To be fair PlayStation's stable of first party series is not exactly comparable to Nintendo either, it was really only towards the end of PS3/early PS4 they settled on a handful of "core" series (TLOU, GOW, Horizon etc.). There isn't a single game company in the world that can compare to how iconic and beloved Nintendo's game series are, quite frankly their software is the only reason people put up with all the other questionable decisions the company has made over the decades. People will do anything to get their hands on Nintendo games and they almost never drop in price.

But yes, the perception of Microsoft's first party series is largely "Halo and friends." It feels like they've given up on building their own warchest and just trying to buy everyone else's, lol.

 

[Brock Reiher]

Now I'm starting to think... When will Starfield launch for PS5? After this interview, I do think it's gonna happen.
Late 2024/early 2025 in my opinion, probably a definitive version with expansions and Creation Club content.

When Ps5 adds a gamepass app

 

[zumaddy]

OP has been vindicated by Big Phil himself.

Personally me and my friends use Switch for console gaming and PC for anything that isn't on there, and we're happy with that. A few have Playstations but none have all 3 consoles. Of course this is a small sample but definitely something I noticed changing when no one around me had an Xbox.

 

[asagami_]

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

That was the reason Sony let Japan Studio die. It's a pretty miserable mindset imho

 

[Linkstrikesback]

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Counterpoint from the minds behind mario kart:

However

That was the reason Sony let Japan Studio die. It's a pretty miserable mindset imho

It doesn't matter if it comes off as miserable, it's reality. Much as I think Gravity rush 1/2 are easily my favourite games to have come out of Sony this century, if the titles a given studio are making have limited appeal, the resources they are eating up could be used better elsewhere for something the audience is more interested in buying. They reorganised Japan Studio around the products that were successful (i.e. astrobot) and the others went their own ways well before the studios reorganisation, such as several key members of the gravity rush team going off to work on a new horror game.

They definitely should if they do not imo.

Splatoon is one of the best newer ips in years, so if the people at EPD stretching their creativity and inspiration get more ips like that, I'd be happy to wait longer for a new Zelda/Mario.

And Nintendo should be smart enough to realize this.

Content is king, and more novel content = more eyes and more wallets being opened.

Splatoon isn't really a new IP now, it's 8 years old at this point. It doesn't matter if you are fine waiting, the majority aren't. They need Mario and they need Zelda and they need Pokémon to sell their system, not Arms and Labo. They didn't really make many new IP this gen, and that's with them being able to recycle a bunch of Wii U content easily, that they won't get to do again.

 

[FeiFongWong]

Thinking more on the interview it's really hilarious that Phil is talking another year about learning from mistakes. Dude, wake up. You're "CEO of microsoft gaming" head of xbox - you've been for almost 10 years and before that he lead microsoft studios. This is not a position for learning how to steer the company. He sounds like a young adult coming from school at his first job. Pathetic.

I also cant believe what I heard about mock reviews. Either he lied and they knew it will score low or... they really though it will be ok, which is even worse, because it means they don't know what makes games good. Phil is not a real gamer. Yeah, he turns some games on for few minutes and plays basic things like vampire survivors (look up his gamertag), but he definitely has no idea if a game clicks or not. He is visiting studios and playing their early builds. He must have know for a long time how this game plays. What is Matt Booty doing there anyway? They have so much money but cant compete because they have no clue what gamers want.

 

[Dcubed]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

Yes, let’s repeat what happened with Rare and Lionhead. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[FeiFongWong]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

100%. People need to feel that there's a possibility of losing a job if they slack off. Right now it feels like everyone there is just draining microsofts money and there is no work done.

 

[Koyota]

That interview is so surreal...
It feels like a combination of a CNBC interview / Investor Conference / Game Biz Interview.
Except directed at fans.

You don`t have the Netflix CEO coming on to influencer shows when Bright gets bad reviews.

The Keighley Reggie interviews from G4TV are about as close as we have seen to this?

 

[Ryunosuke Naruhodo]

Ultimately I haven't used my Xbox in a long time (like months) and am a big supporter of GP in particular so this is disheartening but I'm not that surprised. Nintendo kinda nailed having that inherent appeal that their systems are worth buying to play their (often great) games from the start decades ago, and Sony might have relied on being the only/main place to play GTA/Final Fantasy/Kingdom Hearts/Metal Gear Solid initially but pivoted more towards Nintendo's approach when ND got big success with Uncharted and TLOU, whilst not necessarily having to directly compete against Nintendo either because their console/games are often so different. They can succeed with this similar approach at the same time.

Unfortunately Xbox are kinda in a quagmire now that will be hard to get out of. They too pivoted several years ago in their approach with the introduction of GP and especially by committing to release all their games their from launch. It's a big commitment, one that PS have gone on record as not being able to commit to specifically because they don't want that to diminish the success their big budget games are getting despite having a subscription service that is similar in a lot of ways to GP except that one big difference. It was in some ways an easier commitment for Xbox to make as their games never sold 20 million in a couple of months (Pokemon Scarlet/Violet) or 5 million in a weekend (GoW Ragnarok) but it still undeniably has an impact on how their games are developed/released.

For the record I'm not one of these people that thinks that games are being rushed through quality control because GP has lowered people's standards or whatever nonsense but there is a value proposition between all of MS games being on GP forever, and Sony and even now Nintendo's being $70 only at launch at least. The latter 2 need to justify that insane pricing and if/when they do they reap the rewards as Nintendo's 5/6/whatever years developing TotK will be when it sells 20/30/40 million copies at $70. That is a definitive success that justifies this approach and then some. Whilst MS generate a lot of revenue from GP it's hard (especially for us) to comprehend the individual success stories that justify sequels/MS's approach in general. Like we all knew for years that Horizon Zero Dawn would get a sequel because it sold and reviewed very well indeed but will that Hi-Fi Rush get one when we have no clue about the former? Maybe, maybe not? What about Tango's other game Ghostwire Tokyo? Maybe someday? See what I mean?

So yeah I feel MS's approach isn't aligned with what a lot of people might want and TBF it's been that way for a while, from Kinect to the TVTVTV approaches of their previous consoles, at least for a while, they are clearly reluctant to try to compete directly against Nintendo and especially Sony so have this weird approach where you don't really need their console to buy their games and you don't even really need to buy buy their games anymore (see also Halo going F2P). It's just not as entrenched as Nintendo's approach and so will take a while to perfect I feel.

/rant.

 

[Ozeiyo]

100%. People need to feel that there's a possibility of losing a job if they slack off. Right now it feels like everyone there is just draining microsofts money and there is no work done.

I wish we lived in a world where the workers guide the type of product that a company makes, tbh. The world that you think we live in.

 

[Machrider]

Counterpoint from the minds behind mario kart:

However


It doesn't matter if it comes off as miserable, it's reality. Much as I think Gravity rush 1/2 are easily my favourite games to have come out of Sony this century, if the titles a given studio are making have limited appeal, the resources they are eating up could be used better elsewhere for something the audience is more interested in buying. They reorganised Japan Studio around the products that were successful (i.e. astrobot) and the others went their own ways well before the studios reorganisation, such as several key members of the gravity rush team going off to work on a new horror game.



Splatoon isn't really a new IP now, it's 8 years old at this point. It doesn't matter if you are fine waiting, the majority aren't. They need Mario and they need Zelda and they need Pokémon to sell their system, not Arms and Labo. They didn't really make many new IP this gen, and that's with them being able to recycle a bunch of Wii U content easily, that they won't get to do again.

The main reason I think ARMS even got off the ground is because they could port Mario Kart 8 Deluxe so they didn't need a new Mario Kart game any time soon.

Nintendo throws their studios a bone now and again, but generally speaking it's business as usual.

The Zelda team is likely getting a nice vacation right now, but once that's over it's back to work on Zelda for Switch 2. Not "hey lets make some randomly different game and push the next Zelda's release date to 9 years from now".

 

[Machrider]

That interview is so surreal...
It feels like a combination of a CNBC interview / Investor Conference / Game Biz Interview.
Except directed at fans.

You don`t have the Netflix CEO coming on to influencer shows when Bright gets bad reviews.

The Keighley Reggie interviews from G4TV are about as close as we have seen to this?

Yeah that too ... like not often a company exec will just let themselves be the punching bag in an interview, it's almost kind of unprofessional.

Like OK, that game didn't turn great, so what, not every game/movie/book/album is a 9/10, there are 6/10s too. It happens. The sun still rises the next day.

 

[FeiFongWong]

I wish we lived in a world where the workers guide the type of product that a company makes, tbh. The world that you think we live in.

No, I don't and I think that's stupid. There has to be one person or a small circle with an idea leading hundreds of developers. If everyone had a say in how to make a product nothing would be done. Well, that would be no different than now with incompetent managers at MS.

 

[Ozeiyo]

No, I don't and I think that's stupid. There has to be one person or a small circle with an idea leading hundreds of developers. If everyone had a say in how to make a product nothing would be done. Well, that would be no different than now with incompetent managers at MS.

But this is what is happening in Microsoft. It isn't people wanting to make games that don't sell. It's a core team of managers guiding the team into making bad and incomplete games because they think this is what will sell. I don't believe for a second that Redfall was born from devs that were treated too nicely, or from the team at Arkane Austin saying "hey let's make a looter shooter instead of the games we usually make".

The failure of Halo: Infinite can 100% be attributed to managers that don't know what product they want to release (a game that is both a AAA tentpole game and a f2p product? only on Microsoft) because they don't understand what players want their games to be. The campaign is fun, the multiplayer was decent at launch, and yet the "roadmap" killed the product.

I can100% guarantee that the best games released on the Xbox have also been those in which the teams developing them have had more liberty.

 

[JazzPotatoes]

There is absolutely no reason to start assuming Redfall was pushed on the team from Microsoft, not least because as far as I can tell, it began development at Arkane before the Bethesda buyout.

Sometimes developers don't want to keep developing the same thing all the time, and want to try making something outside their normal wheelhouse. Harvey Smith has been making immersive sims for decades. I can find it perfectly believable he wanted to have a go at making a more Far Cry style of game, and it just didn't come together as it should have done.

 

[Monster Mash]

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Like no, they don't ask that because they know that they have a duty to the company even as a business.

They need someone else brought on who will crack the whip and get their studios pushing out content that makes sense and will move hardware and get those projects done in a reasonable time frame too.

Like there's just something wrong in how they are managing these studios, they need new management.

Nah. Re-think this

 

[Machrider]

Nah. Re-think this

The results speak for themselves. Phil is probably gonna be fired too, he had the look of a guy who knows he's not going to be there much longer.

If you're working for one of the three hardware manufacturers (Nintendo, Sony, MS) ... the bottom line truth is you need to understand the software needs to serve the hardware, if you're just there because you want tens of millions of dollars for passion projects, it likely is not going to work out well.

Hardware needs specific software to sell delivered on time, if your hardware is not selling then layoffs are probably not far behind, so you know for person who wants to dig in and die on the hill of being a noble creative ... it's all fun and games until people start getting laid off because of poor decision making.

MS has to manage their studios a lot better than this, this is a gong show right now. 0 killer apps almost 3 years into a hardware product cycle is horrendously bad studio management.

 

[Monster Mash]

There should be less passion projects like Redfall, a game that Arkane definitely wanted to make.

Right? That was wild to read.

In all sincerity, if capitalism was a functional economic system there would be plenty of room for all the current platform holders, a lot more publishers of various sizes, and several times as many active development studios and indie devs. They would be able to sustain themselves in perpetuity in the same way even the most niche media like horror films have survived - By not overspending, and playing the numbers game. That in turn gives developers more freedom to try things, and we, people who enjoy this medium, would have so many more possible experiences available, and it wouldn't cost us increasingly more money with more and more fees tacked onto the backend. Instead, over time, the industry has consolidated and, especially in the AAA space, homogenized chasing the specter of infinite growth.

The solution to this is not to do even more brutal capitalism. It's socialism. It's workers uniting in solidarity to reclaim their work places, their creativity, and their lives. It's people looking out for each other en masse.

 

[Monster Mash]

The results speak for themselves. Phil is probably gonna be fired too, he had the look of a guy who knows he's not going to be there much longer.

If you're working for one of the three hardware manufacturers (Nintendo, Sony, MS) ... the bottom line truth is you need to understand the software needs to serve the hardware, if you're just there because you want tens of millions of dollars for passion projects, it likely is not going to work out well.

Hardware needs specific software to sell delivered on time, if your hardware is not selling then layoffs are probably not far behind, so you know for person who wants to dig in and die on the hill of being a noble creative ... it's all fun and games until people start getting laid off because of poor decision making.

MS has to manage their studios a lot better than this, this is a gong show right now. 0 killer apps almost 3 years into a hardware product cycle is horrendously bad studio management.

So you propose that the people making the games should be punished en masse via layoffs to discipline them to deliver better games in a more timely fashion? Do you recognize that these failures to deliver over and over across all of MS' studios speaks to a systemic issue and a failure of leadership and management?

I wrote my post above while you were responding to my other post, but please scroll up to it because it addresses your post incidentally.

1) Get some perspective. I love games, but if good games aren't coming out frequently enough I don't think we should be putting the screws to the people making them. That seems unconscionable. I don't want the people who makes the games I love to live in stress and terror and constant crunch. That seems disrespectful of their effort and creativity.

2) The solution to the problem of AAA games being shit right now is not to turn the capitalism dial up. Historically, turning the capitalism dial up has only made the industry worse. It's how we got here!

 

[Machrider]

So you propose that the people making the games should be punished en masse via layoffs to discipline them to deliver better games in a more timely fashion? Do you recognize that these failures to deliver over and over across all of MS' studios speaks to a systemic issue and a failure of leadership and management?

I wrote my post above while you were responding to my other post, but please scroll up to it because it addresses your post incidentally.

1) Get some perspective. I love games, but if good games aren't coming out frequently enough I don't think we should be putting the screws to the people making them. That seems unconscionable. I don't want the people who makes the games I love to live in stress and terror and constant crunch. That seems disrespectful of their effort and creativity.

2) The solution to the problem of AAA games being shit right now is not to turn the capitalism dial up. Historically, turning the capitalism dial up has only made the industry worse. It's how we got here!

No I'm saying the results of mismanagement at this level is people inevitably getting laid off.

You can't have this many studios with this low of output and expect to be bankrolled forever without changes happening.

This really doesn't even have anything to do with my personal tastes, this is just looking at the business of it, you can't be a hardware maker and 3 years into a product cycle have 0 killer apps for the new hardware. Like sorry, it isn't gonna work and that's a management failure in how they are handling their studios and projects.

Gaming is always rooted in extreme capitalism, video games are as capitalistic as Coca-Cola or Nike Air Jordans, Nintendo and Sony and Microsoft aren't in this business for charity sake.

 

[Arrietty]

The results speak for themselves. Phil is probably gonna be fired too, he had the look of a guy who knows he's not going to be there much longer.

If you're working for one of the three hardware manufacturers (Nintendo, Sony, MS) ... the bottom line truth is you need to understand the software needs to serve the hardware, if you're just there because you want tens of millions of dollars for passion projects, it likely is not going to work out well.

Hardware needs specific software to sell delivered on time.

Accusing the devs of not trying and then saying Microsoft "shouldn't be nice" to them is a real rancid take. Do you know what actually went down in the game or do you just have no respect for video game developers?

 

[Machrider]

Accusing the devs of not trying and then saying Microsoft "shouldn't be nice" to them is a real rancid take. Do you know what actually went down in the game or do you just have no respect for video game developers?

I'm saying the management of these studios is clearly not going well.

0 killer apps in almost THREE YEARS for a hardware on the market. How do you think that would go if Nintendo or Sony did that?

MS is going to have to change how they manage their studios because what they're doing right now is not sustainable. Phil is probably fired soon, I mean dude is even half joking about it in interviews, it looks like a sports head coach who knows he's done as soon as the last regular season game is played. It's kind of sad to see.

 

[Arrietty]

I'm saying the management of these studios is clearly not going well.

0 killer apps in almost THREE YEARS for a hardware on the market. How do you think that would go if Nintendo or Sony did that?

MS is going to have to change how they manage their studios because what they're doing right now is not sustainable.

You opened your argument at the beginning of this page by saying "Microsoft is too kind" and strongly implied the devs aren't even trying by saying they are treating it like a school hobby club. You are not fucking fooling me here.

 

[Machrider]

You opened your argument at the beginning of this page by saying "Microsoft is too kind" and strongly implied the devs aren't even trying by saying they are treating it like a school hobby club. You are not fucking fooling me here.

They're running a loose ship, management needs to be better than this, to me it doesn't look like they are managing their shit. I mean sorry but what do you expect when you can't even deliver ONE killer app in three years? You're clearly failing at managing studios and managing their product pipeline, so sure maybe being "too nice" or too loosey goosey is part of the problem. Maybe you need someone with a more concise vision, maybe there is a leadership issue some along the line.

This doesn't just happen by accident.

And this isn't even a new thing or a one-off phenomenon... like this is a new low for the XBox division sure, but they've had content problems really since the XBox 360 era wound down.

Nintendo or Sony would likely never allow this type of thing IMO.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

You opened your argument at the beginning of this page by saying "Microsoft is too kind" and strongly implied the devs aren't even trying by saying they are treating it like a school hobby club. You are not fucking fooling me here.

Lighten up, that's not what they said at all and nobody is trying to fool you, bar maybe yourself. There's a massive difference between "not trying" and "they're trying, but their leadership is giving them no real assistance and is therefore letting them down and they're not reaching their potential as a result" when the second thing is obviously what they were saying.

There's a world of difference between a helpful guiding hand and one that doesn't exist at all, see Next level games non- Nintendo games Vs their ones made in partnership with them, for an obvious example.

 

[Arrietty]

Lighten up, that's not what they said at all and nobody is trying to fool you, bar maybe yourself. There's a massive difference between "not trying" and "they're trying, but their leadership is giving them no real assistance and is therefore letting them down and they're not reaching their potential as a result" when the second thing is obviously what they were saying.

There's a world of difference between a helpful guiding hand and one that doesn't exist at all, see Next level games non- Nintendo games Vs their ones made in partnership with them, for an obvious example.

I hate to say it too but MS seems to me like too nice to their dev studios.

This isn't an after school hobby club where you get to do whatever you want. This is a business.

You think Nintendo just lets the Zelda team say "hey we don't feel like doing another Zelda, lets just do a random passion project with limited sales appeal". Even Sony, like you're making the next God of War or Spider-Man or Gran Turismo, tough shit if you want to do something else but consoles need to be sold.

Uh-huh. Sure.

 

[Deleted member 1141]

Well, this thread is absolutely showing people's true colors.

 

[Monster Mash]

Gaming is always rooted in extreme capitalism, video games are as capitalistic as Coca-Cola or Nike Air Jordans, Nintendo and Sony and Microsoft aren't in this business for charity sake.

It's rooted in extreme capitalism in that capitalism has existed for longer than video games, yes. So what? That doesn't change a single thing about what the solution needs to be, and the solution is not more capitalism.

 

[Monster Mash]

I'm saying the management of these studios is clearly not going well.

0 killer apps in almost THREE YEARS for a hardware on the market. How do you think that would go if Nintendo or Sony did that?

MS is going to have to change how they manage their studios because what they're doing right now is not sustainable. Phil is probably fired soon, I mean dude is even half joking about it in interviews, it looks like a sports head coach who knows he's done as soon as the last regular season game is played. It's kind of sad to see.

But your problem with the management seems to be that they aren't putting the screws to the devs hard enough. That's the issue

 

[Arrietty]

But your problem with the management seems to be that they aren't putting the screws to the devs hard enough. That's the issue

This!! There are ways to improve management without resorting to whatever gross idea that was suggested.

 

[Machrider]

Well, this thread is absolutely showing people's true colors.

The market shows the results in black and white.

People lost their shit when Nintendo didn't release a killer app for the 3DS for 5 measly months. Mr. Iwata had to apologize how many times for that?

What does MS expect people to say when you're 3 freaking years into a hardware cycle and you still are waiting for your 1st in-house killer app?

Like what do you want? A bouquet of roses? That's a monumental failure of management and product delivery in this business. Not even sure how you can sugar coat that.

 

[Machrider]

But your problem with the management seems to be that they aren't putting the screws to the devs hard enough. That's the issue

It's not about "putting screws" to anyone, but is there any leadership here? At all?

Do you think the Zelda team doesn't know for example after ToTK that they're going to be working on Zelda for the Switch 2? No I'm sure they all know that full well, I get the sense with Microsoft they're just all over the place. No one knows what's happening next or what the direction is or anything.