Discussion What was the original source of the 2D Donkey Kong rumor?

[Christo750]

Retro Studios is a great studio no doubt. Their problem is that they can't successfully launch a new IP. They've failed multiple times to do so. I think they're better off working on legacy IPs so we can at least feel confident that those games will release.

Fully agree. I'd even take it a step further and say they can't get a legacy IP off the ground with ideas of their own. They need Nintendo leadership. When they have a vision to work with, they're excellent.

 

[Kartina]

I think that, 2d or 3d, Nintendo wouldn't bring back dk in house and put a new epd to make a brand new dk game just for it to be another dk country game.
So even if it is 2d they'll probably try something new to the series.
Also if it's coming to the switch they already have tropical freeze as a dk country game, they don't really need to make another one. Maybe we're really getting a 3d dk game especially after the amazing success of kirby forgotten land.
The ip has a ton of potential and could easily become a top tier franchise and easily break the 10mil sales

 

[Romancedawn]

I might derail the thread here. Somewhat but not really sorry. But just reading through pages 5, 6 and 7 just got my imagination jump started and my hope in the franchise reignited. Even without these potentially legit insider claims it was always clear to me that DK was being set up for something big in the future. The theme parks and movie was stuff was all I needed to see.

Ever since Retro's concept art of Country Returns I always imagined what big 3D open world Donkey Kong would be like. I imagine being able to climb nearly everything but with a ton a speed and traversal abilities that really give the sense of what it's like to be a primate in the trees. You ever watch real monkeys in action?! Man they living the life! Their fluidity and speed is mesmerizing and taking certain Country & Jungle Beat concepts combined with real life primate mobility and upping that to video game extremes just hypes me to irrational levels.

Remember this Retro art?

What if you could just whip around between the water falls like it was nothing. Get up, get down, get all over like spider-man without the webs. Crazy wide open worlds dense with trees and rocks all interactable with super mobility yeah!

Oh and this one?!

Maybe not one big wide open world but big wide open islands. And getting between them you get on these dueling ships and just do what the DK clan does! Man can you imagine swinging around these masts dodging cannon fire and pirates? Launching yourself with swinging pendulum physics what ever the devil else one might do on a ship!

Ok going to read this last page. I just had to get this out! I miss DK.

 

[Deleted member 4028]

Regarding DK, I think the major problem is that the DK audience hasn't grown at all since the N64 days. Even Returns and Tropical Freeze was marketed as DKC nostalgia when if they really want to tap into the higher echelon of sales figures, they'll have to do something as ambitious as BotW or Odyssey imo

Well, DKC Returns introduced at least 1 person to the series (me)! Lol. Not sure about how the Retro games have brought in a new audience in general though, but I will say I've recently seen some people on the DK discord who have nostalgia for DKCR, or DKCR/TF as their favorite DK games, etc. I think maybe since these games are relatively new, the audience who played them as their first DK games weren't really posting online or anything for a while. Now more of this audience of DK is starting to talk about these games, which I think will increase as time goes on.

 

[Deleted member 4028]

I might derail the thread here. Somewhat but not really sorry. But just reading through pages 5, 6 and 7 just got my imagination jump started and my hope in the franchise reignited. Even without these potentially legit insider claims it was always clear to me that DK was being set up for something big in the future. The theme parks and movie was stuff was all I needed to see.

Ever since Retro's concept art of Country Returns I always imagined what big 3D open world Donkey Kong would be like. I imagine being able to climb nearly everything but with a ton a speed and traversal abilities that really give the sense of what it's like to be a primate in the trees. You ever watch real monkeys in action?! Man they living the life! Their fluidity and speed is mesmerizing and taking certain Country & Jungle Beat concepts combined with real life primate mobility and upping that to video game extremes just hypes me to irrational levels.

Remember this Retro art?

What if you could just whip around between the water falls like it was nothing. Get up, get down, get all over like spider-man without the webs. Crazy wide open worlds dense with trees and rocks all interactable with super mobility yeah!

Oh and this one?!

Maybe not one big wide open world but big wide open islands. And getting between them you get on these dueling ships and just do what the DK clan does! Man can you imagine swinging around these masts dodging cannon fire and pirates? Launching yourself with swinging pendulum physics what ever the devil else one might do on a ship!

Ok going to read this last page. I just had to get this out! I miss DK.

I love the Retro concept art, actually I have one of those concept arts as my wallpaper:

I was actually choosing between it and that first one you posted. There are so many great ones. I think it would also be super cool to see something like this prehistoric fish concept in a 3D game:

 

[Dante Kong]

I got roped into the DK series by my older brothers who are geezers in their late 30s/early 40s who loved the arcade games and snes games, so I got hooked up with DKC1 and DK64 early on and the first DK release that I was around to be excited for the launch of was the wii version of Jungle Beat, crazy enough. Then the next year they had DKCR, which was the first game I pre-ordered (and I've only pre-ordered about 4 games since, it's kind of a rip off most of the time lmao), then DKCR 3D, Tropical Freeze on Wii U and Switch I got on day one, then 9 years later here I am still waiting for the next game lmao. So I would say that I have some nostalgia for all the DK games (sans the Switch port) at this point even if that sounds weird to most other people lol.

 

[Mekanos]

DKC1 and DKC2 were some of the first video games I ever played in the mid 90s. The graphics, the sound, the characters, the artwork in the manuals, ever since I was mesmerized by the series and began following Rare closely. I never truly got over the Rare buyout, but it’s safe to say Rare’s games were a huge part of what got me into Nintendo and video games in general, and I hope going forward Nintendo honors Rare’s legacy with the series properly. It’s annoying that one of Nintendo’s longest running and beloved series is being mishandled as badly as it has. I get Nintendo didn’t exactly plan to drop it like a hot potato, but it would be nice to even get a teaser of this game so we know it exists.

 

[KremlingKuthroat]

Yeah DKC on the SNES was the first video game I loved. I'm 31 and the got a SNES when I was like 5 years old. My older brother made all the purchasing decisions. He bought Super Mario World, Super Mario Kart, Super Mario All-Stars, and Donkey Kong Country. I enjoyed the Mario games a lot, but once I popped that DKC cartridge in for the first time, I was mesmerized. I distinctly remember the second stage with the rainstorm, the vine swinging and the incredible bonus room music got me hooked! It's been my favorite franchise since then! It was the most immersive gaming experience I've had at that point. The atmosphere in that first DKC game is something else.

Quick question: How much do you guys think the upcoming Super Mario Bros. Movie will influence the upcoming DK and Mario video games? I think DK is going to be heavily influenced by the Mario movie and a subsequent DK movie much more than Mario. For instance, I think Emperor Cranky is going to be a thing in the games, as well as the aesthetics of Donkey Kong Island as it appears in the Mario movie, which looks a lot like James Cameron's Pandora with its floating islands.

 

[Leo]

The Rare DKC games are my favorite games of all time, next to the first two generations of Pokémon. That was my childhood and what made me love videogames.

My first experience with DKC was playing at my cousin's, it was the second jungle level where it's raining. I remember the rain and the thunder, I couldn't see things very well because it was dark, and the music had wild animals making noises in the background, holy shit that scared me, it immediately transported me to a storm in the middle of a jungle. As scared as I was, I just could not take my eyes off of it. I also remember the menacing feel of the temple levels, as well as getting scared as hell of playing Mine Cart Madness. The Game Over screen in that game also scared me a lot, it really felt like I was being penalized and I felt so guilty for letting the kongs get beaten up like that.

I also remember when I played DKC2 for the first time, I rented the cartridge and it had a save right on Bramble Blast. That was the first level I played and oh boy, what an introduction. Those clear skies on the background in contrast with the menacing looking thorns, and such an ethereal music playing, I think that was probably the first time I ever felt contemplative in my life. As a kid, you're usually all about upbeat action, but I thought that atmosphere was melancholic and beautiful before I even understood those concepts. I was fascinated by the game forever, right there. Discovering everything else in the game was like living a fantastical adventure, DKC2 is a game that has everything a little kid could ever want, its got a theme park, the inside of a beehive, a haunted forest, the evil castle, besides the whole pirate theme, it's absolutely whimsical, of the best settings in a game to this day.

The world in DKC3 has this mysterious and menacing aura that is at the same time calm and peaceful, just like the ocean, which was a very scary thing for me as a kid and is still scary today. Not by coincidence, the game's world has a lot of water, and its water levels are by far the most dreadful in the series. The game is a constant mix of feeling lost, in danger, but also enthralled by so much natural beauty. The cave levels, the forest levels, the waterfall levels, everything evokes the treacherous beauty of nature, encapsuled in a game. It's like hiking, climbing, exploring and feeling that adrenaline rush of "I know it's dangerous but I just gotta see more", but in a videogame. It's fantastic.

Whatever the new game is, I hope we get some of these vibes back.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

My first experience was DKC was actually the VHS tape from Nintendo Power promoting the first DKC, which I never could play. But I knew DK was out there, and I wanted the game.

Of course the game I ended up getting was DKC on the Gameboy Color. I loved the game to death, though I would never go back to it. It's a worse version of the SNES game and really suffers from screen crunch. But I loved it at the time, janky hitboxes be damned.

Well, DKC Returns introduced at least 1 person to the series (me)! Lol. Not sure about how the Retro games have brought in a new audience in general though, but I will say I've recently seen some people on the DK discord who have nostalgia for DKCR, or DKCR/TF as their favorite DK games, etc. I think maybe since these games are relatively new, the audience who played them as their first DK games weren't really posting online or anything for a while. Now more of this audience of DK is starting to talk about these games, which I think will increase as time goes on.

I think Returns has the problem in that it introduced people to DK, but it didn't really interest people in him. Especially since most casuals couldn't even get past the first world I bet. It also doesn't help that Returns kind of straightforward enemy, and world design that doesn't really inspire a kid to get to know more about DK and his world.

The Rare team did a very good job making you get invested in the Kremling Krew and the Kong family.

 

[KremlingKuthroat]

Agree with most of what you've said. The Rare DK games are my favorite games of all time including Diddy Kong Racing and DK64 (don't judge me)! The atmosphere in those games is unmatched. You felt like you were a part of nature. The second rain stage and Gorilla Glacier are so immersive. Everyone talks about bringing the Kremlings back, but it's equally egregious that Zingers were completely removed too. They're just as iconic as the Kremlings. That buzzing noise they make is so haunting and mesmerizing and really taps into that fear of bees.

Rare's sound design was so incredible in those games. They don't get enough credit for that. That and the worldbuilding and atmosphere is what makes the Retro games seem lacking imo even though I still think they're great games.

 

[Dante Kong]

Quick question: How much do you guys think the upcoming Super Mario Bros. Movie will influence the upcoming DK and Mario video games? I think DK is going to be heavily influenced by the Mario movie and a subsequent DK movie much more than Mario. For instance, I think Emperor Cranky is going to be a thing in the games, as well as the aesthetics of Donkey Kong Island as it appears in the Mario movie, which looks a lot like James Cameron's Pandora with its floating isislands.

Some things I definitely see crossing over, but not everything. It's worth mentioning that we already have some movie/Super Nintendo World influence in the games, as most of the environments in Mario Strikers on Switch match up with the parks pretty spot on (specifically the blocky hills, Bowsers castle and the kong treehouses), which we later saw reflected in the movie trailers in some ways. So there definitely will be some parity between the media formats.

I'd bet the design for DK in the next game is a blend of the current game design and the movie design, that leans more towards the movie design overall. Emperor Cranky I'm kind of 50/50 on, it's a great concept but if they want to make him Playable again I think they'd use the classic design. Of he's a NPC I'd say the emperor garb is more likely. Can't explain my reasoning behind that prediction, just a hunch tbh. And as far as the floating islands go, I'd be surprised if they were in the game outside of postgame/bonus levels. The floating islands just seem to be everywhere as part of the movies lore, at least that's how I'm interpreting it as of now. And I'm sure there's more stuff in the full movie that we could bet on seeing in the games as well as time passes.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Quick question: How much do you guys think the upcoming Super Mario Bros. Movie will influence the upcoming DK and Mario video games? I think DK is going to be heavily influenced by the Mario movie and a subsequent DK movie much more than Mario. For instance, I think Emperor Cranky is going to be a thing in the games, as well as the aesthetics of Donkey Kong Island as it appears in the Mario movie, which looks a lot like James Cameron's Pandora with its floating islands.

Hard to say.

The movie has been in development since Iwata's time, along with the Universal projects when Returns/TF were the most recent games media and visual style. While Miyamoto has been very on hands with both the movie and this product, we also know he's the kind of guy who likes to keep a firm boundaries between media depictions.

I mean, the Mario movie's motif seems to still have heavy 3D World influence but that didn't stop us from getting the radical Mario Odyssey.

 

[Christo750]

Yeah DKC on the SNES was the first video game I loved. I'm 31 and the got a SNES when I was like 5 years old. My older brother made all the purchasing decisions. He bought Super Mario World, Super Mario Kart, Super Mario All-Stars, and Donkey Kong Country. I enjoyed the Mario games a lot, but once I popped that DKC cartridge in for the first time, I was mesmerized. I distinctly remember the second stage with the rainstorm, the vine swinging and the incredible bonus room music got me hooked! It's been my favorite franchise since then! It was the most immersive gaming experience I've had at that point. The atmosphere in that first DKC game is something else.

Quick question: How much do you guys think the upcoming Super Mario Bros. Movie will influence the upcoming DK and Mario video games? I think DK is going to be heavily influenced by the Mario movie and a subsequent DK movie much more than Mario. For instance, I think Emperor Cranky is going to be a thing in the games, as well as the aesthetics of Donkey Kong Island as it appears in the Mario movie, which looks a lot like James Cameron's Pandora with its floating islands.

another 1991 baby; nice.

given the redesign from Miyamoto himself, I say majorly. he made a point to talk about how DK hasn't had a redesign since the 90's and how this one is more of a hybrid between Country and the arcade series, which I think is the vibe we can expect from his games from now on.

 

[Nathan Little]

Quick question: How much do you guys think the upcoming Super Mario Bros. Movie will influence the upcoming DK and Mario video games? I think DK is going to be heavily influenced by the Mario movie and a subsequent DK movie much more than Mario. For instance, I think Emperor Cranky is going to be a thing in the games, as well as the aesthetics of Donkey Kong Island as it appears in the Mario movie, which looks a lot like James Cameron's Pandora with its floating islands.

Can't see it very well in the poster, but I kind of dig Diddy's new attire look I think. Switching out his tank top with what looks to be a jersey is a fun way to make the character fresh imo. Dixie, on the other hand, is a little harder to judge at the moment. I'll have to see both in motion of course.

In terms of clothing, the side Kongs seem to be getting the biggest redesign change from the rest of the cast. Makes me wonder if the reason we haven't seen the new game yet is because the new game will borrow heavily from the movie. I still suspect DK will look closely to the games, but the movie might be a glimpse of what Diddy, Dixie, and Cranky will look like in the new game in terms of attire.

Not to say tank top Diddy will disappear entirely considering that is the look they are going for in the parks. Gotta have that synergy still.

 

[Moltres006]

 

[Christo750]

i know cool things have been made in Dreams but really most stuff looks terrible

 

[Deleted member 4028]

I think Returns has the problem in that it introduced people to DK, but it didn't really interest people in him. Especially since most casuals couldn't even get past the first world I bet. It also doesn't help that Returns kind of straightforward enemy, and world design that doesn't really inspire a kid to get to know more about DK and his world.

The Rare team did a very good job making you get invested in the Kremling Krew and the Kong family.

Well I disagree that kids weren’t interested in DK’s world from DKC Returns, since this game did get me really interested in his world. I loved the environments and overall they’re still my favorite environments in a DK game to this day.

But yeah I guess the Tikis could have been more interesting, I don’t think they were the best villain group design wise. I think they get a little too much hate but I don’t think they’re on the level of the DKC 1/2 Kremlings for sure. There could have also been more Animal Buddies, Kongs etc.

 

[Brofield]

Banana peels, not banana "shoes." But yes; that was one of the many gameplay mechanics that Miyamoto gave his input on. Folks, Miyamoto loves Donkey Kong. He's the reason why Jungle Beat and Donkey Kong Country Returns were made, and he's the reason why DK is now being prioritized at EPD.

I'm sorry, just...trying to wrap my mind around the concept of a DK game with potentially both minecarts

and Sonic Adventure-style rail grinding

I think I'm on the hype train with the rest of y'all at long last.

 

[Dante Kong]

...huh. The plot thickens.
Also, for what it's worth, Hyle of DK Vine said to "listen to the pig" a couple days ago, so make of that what you all will as well.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Well I disagree that kids weren’t interested in DK’s world from DKC Returns, since this game did get me really interested in his world, I loved the environments and overall they’re still my favorite environments in a DK game to this day.

But yeah I guess the Tikis could have been more interesting, I don’t think they were the best villain group design wise. I think they get a little too much hate but I don’t think they’re on the level of the DKC 1/2 Kremlings for sure. There could have also been more Animal Buddies, Kongs etc.

Fair enough. Like, I don't care much about the Tikis, but it's not like I don't think Retro didn't understand they needed more dynamic baddies, hence the Snowmads. It's a bit of a shame they look to be one offs, but they were definitely Kremling level charming.

 

[KCannon]

Another issue is that Diddy Kong as a character was a Nintendo A-lister in the 90s and starred in 2 of his own games sans DK himself. DKC2 and Diddy Kong Racing. Both those games sold 5M+. Now, Diddy is nowhere near as popular as he once was. K. Rool has surpassed him in popularity and he hasn't even been in a DK game since 2007 lol

This is absolutely false. Diddy keeps mindshare through his presence in Mario sports games alone.

 

[Professor Chops]

This is a Dreams game made by somebody from DK Vine.

 

[KCannon]

I remember seeing that about Enguarde. Imo it still feels like a missed opportunity not to include him in the water world of TF. Seems like it would have been easy to do and would have made the world a lot more fun. But, I don't really know anything about game dev lol, maybe it would have been more difficult/complicated than I'm thinking it would be.

Enguarde would be redundant due to the Kongs having underwater attacks and having ways to speed up while swimming. You'd be taking away convenient gameplay controls and QoL just to have a fish back for a few levels.

This applies to a lot of the older DKC elements. Why do you need Candy when autosaves exist? What's the point of buying hints from Cranky when info is so readily available elsewhere? Technology just made some of their purposes obsolete. Let's not forget how DK64 downplayed animal buddies as well by making them glorified keys.

Rambi works because he at least brings his own gameplay quirks like dashing, breakable blocks and spikes. You don't need to sacrifice DK's moveset for that.

 

[KremlingKuthroat]

Just out of curiosity, how many DK Vine forum members have infiltrated this thread? I feel like this thread began as a general Famiboards thread that morphed into a DK fan club thread lol

 

[Professor Chops]

Enguarde would be redundant due to the Kongs having underwater attacks and having ways to speed up while swimming. You'd be taking away convenient gameplay controls and QoL just to have a fish back for a few levels.

This applies to a lot of the older DKC elements. Why do you need Candy when autosaves exist? What's the point of buying hints from Cranky when info is so readily available elsewhere? Technology just made some of their purposes obsolete. Let's not forget how DK64 downplayed animal buddies as well by making them glorified keys.

Rambi works because he at least brings his own gameplay quirks like dashing, breakable blocks and spikes. You don't need to sacrifice DK's moveset for that.

All of those things could have been accomplished on previous hardware as well. The reason Cranky and Candy were added was to make the world feel more "lived in"—to make Donkey Kong Country a familial adventure. Historically speaking, Rare and Nintendo have different design philosophies. Nintendo minimizes what they view as bloat by focusing on gameplay above all else, whereas Rare will pad the world with extra characters just for the sake of it. Interestingly, several modern Nintendo games, like Splatoon, feel more Rare-esque in how they handle characters. None of the shopkeepers in Inkopolis Plaza serve a gameplay function, but they make the world of Splatoon feel more alive. People grow attached to these characters and go online to draw fanart. This is what the modern Donkey Kong games have been missing. The gameplay and level designs have never been better, but the worlds feel sort of… empty.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Just out of curiosity, how many DK Vine forum members have infiltrated this thread? I feel like this thread began as a general Famiboards thread that morphed into a DK fan club thread lol

I lurk in the place, but I guess that doesn't really make me a carryover.

 

[KCannon]

All of those things could have been accomplished on previous hardware as well. The reason Cranky and Candy were added was to make the world feel more "lived in"—to make Donkey Kong Country a familial adventure. Historically speaking, Rare and Nintendo have different design philosophies. Nintendo minimizes what they view as bloat.

I'll just say that paying Funky just to be able to backtrack was a definite dumbass move.

And I feel even Rare knew this, since the GBA remakes all attached those weird minigames to the supporting cast.

 

[KremlingKuthroat]

Enguarde would be redundant due to the Kongs having underwater attacks and having ways to speed up while swimming.

This applies to a lot of the older DKC elements. Why do you need Candy when autosaves exist? What's the point of buying hints from Cranky when info is so readily available elsewhere? Technology just made some of their purposes obsolete. Let's not forget how DK64 downplayed animal buddies as well by making them glorified keys.

Enguarde would be redundant due to the Kongs having underwater attacks and having ways to speed up while swimming. You'd be taking away convenient gameplay controls and QoL just to have a fish back for a few levels.

So you’re suggesting Enguarde should be killed off and never appear in another DK game ever again bc he’s redundant? I guess all characters that don’t serve a gameplay function are useless?

 

[Deleted member 4028]

Enguarde would be redundant due to the Kongs having underwater attacks and having ways to speed up while swimming. You'd be taking away convenient gameplay controls and QoL just to have a fish back for a few levels.

This applies to a lot of the older DKC elements. Why do you need Candy when autosaves exist? What's the point of buying hints from Cranky when info is so readily available elsewhere? Technology just made some of their purposes obsolete. Let's not forget how DK64 downplayed animal buddies as well by making them glorified keys.

Rambi works because he at least brings his own gameplay quirks like dashing, breakable blocks and spikes. You don't need to sacrifice DK's moveset for that.

I just don’t think DK’s underwater movements in TF are that fun or satisfying. I’d say Enguarde would add a lot more speed/fun to the underwater attacks/speed up ability that DK had in the game. Plus, he wouldn’t be taking away from DK’s gameplay because he could be totally optional if you want. At most, maybe he could only be required for a few segments, I don’t think this would be taking away from DK gameplay since his best gameplay is already above water, this would just be a few moments in underwater levels where his gameplay already isn’t that fun (imo).

 

[Leo]

This applies to a lot of the older DKC elements. Why do you need Candy when autosaves exist? What's the point of buying hints from Cranky when info is so readily available elsewhere? Technology just made some of their purposes obsolete. Let's not forget how DK64 downplayed animal buddies as well by making them glorified keys.

Rambi works because he at least brings his own gameplay quirks like dashing, breakable blocks and spikes. You don't need to sacrifice DK's moveset for that.

Those are all design choices, they could have made the kongs not have those abilities underwater and instead given them to Enguarde. There are also plenty of animal buddies with unique abilities that weren't used, like Squitter, Squawks or Ellie.

I mean, TF is a great game and I'm not complaining about what we got, I'm just saying it was Retro's choice to do their own thing instead of digging more into the previous games. There were plenty of ways to implement a lot of previous mechanics if so they wanted.

Personally I feel like giving Diddy a jetpack was a mistake, it took Dixie's signature move, leaving her with what felt like an afterthought, and both of them in the party felt redundant. It was kind of overkill to have a party of four when most of the time all those abilities weren't used. Since all these extra abilities have limited use anyway, I'd preferred to have them as animal buddies (like having Rattly in those Cranky stages, for example).

 

[Deleted member 4028]

Just out of curiosity, how many DK Vine forum members have infiltrated this thread? I feel like this thread began as a general Famiboards thread that morphed into a DK fan club thread lol

I was on DKVine before Famiboards, I joined like December of last year I think when I saw a link on there to this website. Then deleted my account but then rejoined. So yeah I guess I could be a crossover from that website lol

 

[Professor Chops]

One of the reasons why I love Professor Chops so much, in fact, is that he feels like something Rare would have come up with had it not been for the technical limitations of the SNES. A checkpoint could have been denoted by a flag or a barrel like in the previous Donkey Kong Country games, but they went the extra mile and added a character. He doesn't serve a gameplay purpose, but they added him anyway. This is the kind of world-building I want to see more of.

 

[Leo]

When designing a game you can do whatever you want. If you want to use the kong cast, you just think of a way of using them and do it, it's not undoable. If you want the animal buddies to be in, think of old or new mechanics that could be implemented with them, no problem! No character is redundant or obsolete by defition.

 

[KCannon]

So you’re suggesting Enguarde should be killed off and never appear in another DK game ever again bc he’s redundant? I guess all characters that don’t serve a gameplay function are useless?

Enguarde could appear in spinoffs, if one were made.

But gameplay-wise, I don't see a point. This is not something exclusive to the animal buddies. Even Yoshi is rarely prominent in the NSMB, compared to SMW, because he interferes too much in the gameplay Nintendo wants you to focus on, which is Mario's agility and use of multiple power-ups.

Retro is more or less the same. The focus is on DK's weighty physics and inherent gorilla abilities. And the Level Design is build around those.

In a way, DK's Kong buddies more or less replace the need of animal buddies. Cranky is pretty much Rattly when you think about it.

 

[KCannon]

When designing a game you can do whatever you want. If you want to use the kong cast, you just think of a way of using them and do it, it's not undoable. If you want the animal buddies to be in, think of old or new mechanics that could be implemented with them, no problem! No character is redundant or obsolete by defition.

But considering how gameplay-oriented Nintendo is, Retro's games are probably just the natural path those games would follow one way or the other.

Like someone else said, Rare's games had their own culture. I expect EPD's games to still be aligned more with Retro's stuff because that's closer to current Nintendo's ways of doing things. Reminder that Miyamoto had a strong influence in Returns.

 

[Leo]

But considering how gameplay-oriented Nintendo is, Retro's games are probably just the natural path those games would follow one way or the other.

But the animal buddies are completely gameplay oriented in the og games. The kong family could also be implemented in a gameplay oriented way (I mean, they made Cranky playable!). It was simply a choice not to.

 

[Deleted member 4028]

As much as I love the Retro games, and I prefer them to the Rare games, the lack of animal buddies is 1 area where I think they made a misstep.

Animal buddies are just fun. They add a lot of diversity to the gameplay, and add more interesting characters to the world. Maybe part of it also is that I’ve always liked animals lol. This is part of why DK’s universe resonates so much with me too, it’s very nature/animal themed. Animal buddies add a lot to those themes by letting you play as different animals, with totally unique gameplay for each one.

 

[KCannon]

But the animal buddies are completely gameplay oriented in the og games. The kong family could also be implemented in a gameplay oriented way (I mean, they made Cranky playable!). It was simply a choice not to.

I think at some point you need to start thinking about potential bloat. DK64 didn't, and the game was worse for it.

Like, animal buddies made complete sense in the older games because you had two playable characters with very basic moves and attributes and the buddies added much needed variety.

Now though, in TF alone, you have DK, Diddy, Dixie, Cranky and Funky. That's 5 different characters to keep track of. Gameplay is also inherently more diverse because everybody has different special moves or abilities like climbing walls, fast swimming, plucking, shooting peanuts/gum/dentures, cane bouncing, jetpacks, etc. Focus becomes a necessity in those cases, and some things have got to give.

Again, you just need to look at 2D Mario. His moveset is way more expansive than whatever was there in the old games, so stuff like Yoshi needs to give space, otherwise you lose focus and the level design will suffer to accomodate all those different movesets. Animal buddies are the same. At some point, they just start interfering with cool ideas like Grassland Groove and Wing Ding or Fruity Factory.

Retro knows this. This is why that interview has the guy essentially saying "Enguarde was interfering on our ideas for the main playable characters. We can't do everything."

 

[Nathan Little]

Considering Rambi is fast and can break through boulders and the like, maybe Enguarde can be fast and slice through seaweed or vines blocking the path underwater. Since they're a swordfish, maybe Enguarde can have sword duel with a boss or something. There are many fun cool things you can do with Enguarde that the other Kongs could not do. Enguarde and Squitter are the two animal buddies I want to see come back the most.

 

[Leo]

I think at some point you need to start thinking about potential bloat. DK64 didn't, and the game was worse for it.

Like, animal buddies made complete sense in the older games because you had two playable characters with very basic moves and attributes and the buddies added much needed variety.

Now though, in TF alone, you have DK, Diddy, Dixie, Cranky and Funky. That's 5 different characters to keep track of. Gameplay is also inherently more diverse because everybody has different special moves or abilities like climbing walls, fast swimming, plucking, shooting peanuts/gum/dentures, cane bouncing, jetpacks, etc. Focus becomes a necessity in those cases, and some things have got to give.

Again, you just need to look at 2D Mario. His moveset is way more expansive than whatever was there in the old games, so stuff like Yoshi needs to give space, otherwise you lose focus and the level design will suffer to accomodate all those different movesets. Animal buddies are the same. At some point, they just start interfering with cool ideas like Grassland Groove and Wing Ding or Fruity Factory.

That's why I'm saying, the party doesn't need to be 5 kongs, that's a choice. To me, it was way more elegant how it was before, focus on two kongs with all around abilities and have specific abilities for specific stages designed around them. The way it is now, it's bloated because you don't need Cranky Kong the whole time, just in a few specific areas that in previous games would be covered by Rattly, and you also don't need Dixie in the party, she's there because she's a popular main character and they gave her what they could after Diddy took her place in the first game.

Also Nintendo didn't phase out Yoshi in 2D Mario, I don't know what you're talking about. Yoshi was there in the last 2D Mario game, and new gameplay mechanics were added around it (the different baby Yoshi abilities). Yoshis add variety to gameplay, it's not bloat.

 

[KCannon]

Also, I applaud Retro for not trying to remain in Rare's shadow and trying their own take in the franchise.

If they didn't want Kremlings around (or was it Miyamoto?), that's absolute fine. Studios shouldn't be beholden to what other studios did in the past. I miss Rare's stuff as much as anyone else, but I also want to see new takes. Neither Retro nor EPD should be Rare 2.0.

 

[KCannon]

That's why I'm saying, the party doesn't need to be 5 kongs, that's a choice. To me, it was way more elegant how it was before, focus on two kongs with all around abilities and have specific abilities for specific stages designed around them. The way it is now, it's bloated because you don't need Cranky Kong the whole time, just in a few specific areas that in previous games would be covered by Rattly, and you also don't need Dixie in the party, she's there because she's a popular main character and they gave her what they could after Diddy took her place in the first game.

Also Nintendo didn't phase out Yoshi in 2D Mario, I don't know what you're talking about. Yoshi was there in the last 2D Mario game, and new gameplay mechanics were added around it (the different baby Yoshi abilities). Yoshis add variety to gameplay, it's not bloat.

I mentioned Yoshi because there are still some purists who think Yoshi should be more prominent in 2D games,

In NSMBU for example, Yoshi is only present in 3-4 levels. More or less the same as Rambi is in TF.

Plus, TF also has Mine Carts, Rocket Barrels and several environmental gimmicks. It's not a game that suffers from variety to begin with. Cranky and Dixie can be present in any level too, which is not something you can have from Enguarde. This is also a plus for replayability.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Considering Rambi is fast and can break through boulders and the like, maybe Enguarde can be fast and slice through seaweed or vines blocking the path underwater. Since they're a swordfish, maybe Enguarde can have sword duel with a boss or something. There are many fun cool things you can do with Enguarde that the other Kongs could not do. Enguarde and Squitter are the two animal buddies I want to see come back the most.

Yeah, I wasn't terribly bothered by the absence of Enguarde from a gameplay perspective (and I prefer how the Kong's move in the water anyway) but they could have brought him back in some way that doesn't overburden the core-mechanics. Ultimately, the Retro games are follow-ups to the Rare games. There should be a balance between making gameplay-oriented decisions and delivering on elements that people expect from the series.

 

[KCannon]

Yeah, I wasn't terribly bothered by the absence of Enguarde from a gameplay perspective (and I prefer how the Kong's move in the water anyway) but they could have brought him back in some way that doesn't overburden the core-mechanics. Ultimately, the Retro games are follow-ups to the Rare games. There should be a balance between making gameplay-oriented decisions and delivering on elements that people expect from the series.

Which I think they were very successful in. In Tropical Freeze:

• Dixie is back.
• David Wise is back.
• Funky is back.

And this was after Returns brought back a plethora classic elements, right after Nintendo went bananas with the franchise in the mid-00's. Retro didn't go the Jungle Beat road of making everything unrecognizable.

Yet, people still want them to copy Rare's formula to a T.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Which I think they were very successful in. In Tropical Freeze:

• Dixie is back.
• David Wise is back.
• Funky is back.

And this was after Returns brought back a plethora classic elements, right after Nintendo went bananas with the franchise in the mid-00's.

Yet, people still want them to copy Rare's formula.

TF is my favourite of the series so I definitely agree that they largely did a great job with it. I don't think it's controversial to say that the animal buddies feel pretty undercooked in comparison.

 

[Deleted member 4028]

Also, I applaud Retro for not trying to remain in Rare's shadow and trying their own take in the franchise.

If they didn't want Kremlings around (or was it Miyamoto?), that's absolute fine. Studios shouldn't be beholden to what other studios did in the past. I miss Rare's stuff as much as anyone else, but I also want to see new takes. Neither Retro nor EPD should be Rare 2.0.

I mean I agree with this. I just don't think animal buddies are something that needs to be abandoned. And I don't think Retro does either, which is why they included Rambi pretty prominently.

 

[Lord Azrael]

To be perfectly honest, I don't even care about it being DK specifically. Well I do really like his character design, but the part I actually love about the games is the tight platforming gameplay and amazing level design. Slap a Captain Rainbow skin on it for all I care

Same for 3D Mario. I don't care that it's Mario, I care that it's world class gameplay developed by one of the most talented teams on Earth. So if EPD was developing a 3D Donkey Kong, it's not like DK's prior pedigree in the Country games makes any difference to that. It's just a skin

 

[KCannon]

Also, I sincerely believe the Mario movie will have little impact on whatever the new DK game will end up being.

There's this annoying tendency that people believe Nintendo will make their games closer to their movies, even though stuff like Pokemon and Kirby never really followed their animated adaptations that closely (Pokemon Yellow aside).

Mario especially because a lot of the movie's environments are just past game locations anyway.

 

[Mekanos]

Also, I applaud Retro for not trying to remain in Rare's shadow and trying their own take in the franchise.

If they didn't want Kremlings around (or was it Miyamoto?), that's absolute fine. Studios shouldn't be beholden to what other studios did in the past. I miss Rare's stuff as much as anyone else, but I also want to see new takes. Neither Retro nor EPD should be Rare 2.0.

It was Tanabe who mandated the Kremlings not return.

Again, if we're only getting a new DK game every half decade (and that's generous at the current rate), it's not unreasonable to be disappointed that we are waiting forever to see classic characters return. This constant start-and-stop with the DK series and characters is tiring.

I think at some point you need to start thinking about potential bloat. DK64 didn't, and the game was worse for it.

Like, animal buddies made complete sense in the older games because you had two playable characters with very basic moves and attributes and the buddies added much needed variety.

Now though, in TF alone, you have DK, Diddy, Dixie, Cranky and Funky. That's 5 different characters to keep track of. Gameplay is also inherently more diverse because everybody has different special moves or abilities like climbing walls, fast swimming, plucking, shooting peanuts/gum/dentures, cane bouncing, jetpacks, etc. Focus becomes a necessity in those cases, and some things have got to give.

Again, you just need to look at 2D Mario. His moveset is way more expansive than whatever was there in the old games, so stuff like Yoshi needs to give space, otherwise you lose focus and the level design will suffer to accomodate all those different movesets. Animal buddies are the same. At some point, they just start interfering with cool ideas like Grassland Groove and Wing Ding or Fruity Factory.

Retro knows this. This is why that interview has the guy essentially saying "Enguarde was interfering on our ideas for the main playable characters. We can't do everything."

Mario 3D World has five playable characters with a variety of different attributes and incredibly varied level design, in addition to over half a dozen power-ups, and it all flows together perfectly. I don't expect Retro to bring back literally every Animal Buddy, but they're a core part of the classic trilogy and could expand on the gameplay even moreso.