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StarTopic US Politics |ST| The Kyrsten Sinema-tic Universe

merp

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Anti-Vax Convoy Leader Says He Welcomes Protesters Displaying ‘Confederate Flags’ in Ottawa

The lead spokesperson for the anti-vaccine convoy protests that have shut down Canada’s national capital says he is okay with protesters flying Confederate flags in Ottawa because he wants to hear “unacceptable opinions.”

Benjamin Dichter, a failed candidate for both the Conservative Party and People’s Party, participated in a Twitter Space discussion with a pair of highly controversial former Rebel Media personalities – Keean Bexte and Lauren Southern.

During a Twitter Space chat hosted by Bexte, Dichter was asked about photos circulating of hate symbols at the convoy, including multiple Confederate flags and flags displaying Nazi swastikas.

While Dichter claimed the swastika was a false flag operation carried out by the federal government, he did not condemn the confederate flag.
 

randomengine

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One week thread ban: Regardless of the political views or discussion at hand, it's inappropriate and offensive to question the validity of their marriage like this. Please consider this going forward -Donnie, hologram, Rika
Saw this posted recently on Resetera and I have to agree it very closely matches what is going on domestically:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

The book emphasizes that Russia must spread anti-Americanism everywhere: "the main 'scapegoat' will be precisely the U.S."

In the United States:
  • Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".[9]

Every time I see liberal, well-meaning people saying the things they do, I cannot help but imagine they are consuming media that is Putin-influenced. Meanwhile, on the right-side of things, they are being angered and fomented to display their worst tendencies.

We are being manipulated.

The Eurasian Project could be expanded to South and Central America.[9]

This helps explain Brazil's recent fascist turn and Glenn Greenwald and his operative "husband". Everything about that relationship seems manufactured to me.
 

bellydrum

website dad
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This helps explain Brazil's recent fascist turn and Glenn Greenwald and his operative "husband". Everything about that relationship seems manufactured to me.

Clarify something for me:
Are you suggesting an American journalist is not actually in love with his husband, and instead is in a manufactured marriage in order to manipulate people according to The Eurasian Project?
 

randomengine

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Clarify something for me:
Are you suggesting an American journalist is not actually in love with his husband, and instead is in a manufactured marriage in order to manipulate people according to The Eurasian Project?
In 2005, a 37-year old Greenwald left his law practice in New York and took a long vacation to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where he met 19-year old David Miranda, an orphan who lived in a slum.[176] Days after they met, the couple decided to move in together, and wed shortly thereafter.[177] Miranda now serves as a Congressman with the left-wing PSOL party.[176] The couple live in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.[178][177] They formally adopted two sons in Brazil in 2018.[179] In 2017, Greenwald and Miranda announced that they had gained legal guardianship of the brothers, who are from Maceió, a city in Northeastern Brazil.[180][better source needed][181]

Here is what I know:
  • Shotgun marriage around 2005.
  • Glenn leaves the country at a time when he is working with government whistleblowers to reveal their secrets and undermine US Policy (I support whistleblowing, btw, but there can be examples of malicious intent - Assange is one of those).
  • Glenn claims he lives in Brazil because USA is so backwards on gay rights. Brazil doesn't legalize gay marriage until 2013, USA follows 2 years later.
  • Brazil descends into fascism.
  • Glenn continues to snipe at the US left, while being obnoxiously blind to Russian manipulation in the US.
  • Glenn is kicked out of an online journalism effort that he help to found - The Intercept.
  • Glenn is distanced from and ostracized by most of his previous journalist friends and professionals who don't understand why he has become what he is right now.
We know that RT regularly hosts left-wing commentators, journalists, gad-flies that attack US policies. Russia has spread its influence into Brazil at the exact moment that Glenn moves there. Glenn claims his husband is left and hates Bolsonaro, but is that really true? REALLY?

Glenn's descent is well known. Being parked in Brazil behind a pro-Russian fascist government is pretty cozy. I don't believe all his anti-Bolsonaro rhetoric because dude if I was an American fleeing fascism and ended up in Brazil under Bolsonaro - I wouldn't worry about the US as much anymore. Glenn still acts as though Brazil is not his home. He is afraid of being arrested due to his whistleblower work and I wonder if this husband of his isn't some local handler - from Russia with Love.

Those are my opinions. It wouldn't be the first time Russia sent someone to manipulate people through "love" - Maria Butina anyone?
 
R

Ray00101

Guest
If you find a post inflammatory, please use the report button. Posts like this are not helpful, especially with the flippant reference to mental illness. - blondkayvon, Donnie, hologram
Jesus Christ.

Seek help.
 

Phosphorescent Skeleton

I'd better activate my prayer capsule
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Here is what I know:
  • Shotgun marriage around 2005.
  • Glenn leaves the country at a time when he is working with government whistleblowers to reveal their secrets and undermine US Policy (I support whistleblowing, btw, but there can be examples of malicious intent - Assange is one of those).
  • Glenn claims he lives in Brazil because USA is so backwards on gay rights. Brazil doesn't legalize gay marriage until 2013, USA follows 2 years later.
  • Brazil descends into fascism.
  • Glenn continues to snipe at the US left, while being obnoxiously blind to Russian manipulation in the US.
  • Glenn is kicked out of an online journalism effort that he help to found - The Intercept.
  • Glenn is distanced from and ostracized by most of his previous journalist friends and professionals who don't understand why he has become what he is right now.
We know that RT regularly hosts left-wing commentators, journalists, gad-flies that attack US policies. Russia has spread its influence into Brazil at the exact moment that Glenn moves there. Glenn claims his husband is left and hates Bolsonaro, but is that really true? REALLY?

Glenn's descent is well known. Being parked in Brazil behind a pro-Russian fascist government is pretty cozy. I don't believe all his anti-Bolsonaro rhetoric because dude if I was an American fleeing fascism and ended up in Brazil under Bolsonaro - I wouldn't worry about the US as much anymore. Glenn still acts as though Brazil is not his home. He is afraid of being arrested due to his whistleblower work and I wonder if this husband of his isn't some local handler - from Russia with Love.

Those are my opinions. It wouldn't be the first time Russia sent someone to manipulate people through "love" - Maria Butina anyone?
This is qanon for liberals. You need to just ban this guy permanently.
 

Mekanos

Cat Burglar
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Glenn Greenwald is an annoying turd who needs to log off but questioning his marriage to his husband is an incredibly stupid thing to do lol

Also,

Saw this posted recently on Resetera and I have to agree it very closely matches what is going on domestically:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
The author of this book is a fascist

"We, conservatives, want a strong, solid State, want order and healthy family, positive values, the reinforcing of the importance of religion and the Church in society". He adds: "We want patriotic radio, TV, patriotic experts, patriotic clubs. We want the media that expresses national interests".
Dugin spent two years studying the geopolitical, semiotic and esoteric theories of the controversial German scholar Herman Wirth (1885-1981), one of the founders of the German Ahnenerbe. This resulted in the book Hyperborean Theory (1993), in which Dugin largely endorsed Wirth's ideas as a possible foundation for his Eurasianism.
For those of you playing at home, Wirth was a Nazi.


This is just from his Wikipedia. No surprise coming from a self-proclaimed anticommunist. Almost like anticommunism is the foundational tenet of fascism. 🤔

But this isn't the first time fascist literature has been posted on sites like ResetERA just because they support western hegemony.
 
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merp

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Okay, so I was listening to this in another tab:



Not gonna lie, Biden talked about "funding the police" and someone where I was at played this:

 

merp

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Friend sent this to me just now.


Check it out:

From the article said:
Three mass shootings over the weekend have underscored that gun violence in the United States is aggravating. The the Gun Violence Archive (GVA) holds that over 22,000 people have died or been injured due to gun-related incidents in this year. The following is some of the bloodiest mass shootings over the past two years:

-- On April 17, 2022, two minors died and eight people were injured after shots were fired at a house party with as many as 200 people in attendance in Pittsburgh.

-- On April 16, 2022, in South Carolina, two separate mass shootings on Saturday afternoon and early Sunday have left at least 23 people injured.

-- During April 8-11, 2022, at least 18 people were shot, with at least five of them killed, in New Orleans, the largest city in Louisiana within 72 hours, tying the record for the last 10 years.

-- On April 3, 2022, the Sacramento Police Department confirmed that six adults were killed and 12 other people were injured in a mass shooting in Los Angeles.

-- On Feb. 28, 2022, five people, including three children, were killed after a man opened fire in a church near Arden Fair mall in Sacramento.

-- On Sept. 5, 2021, four people, including an infant, were killed in Lakeland, Florida.

-- On July 25, 2021, five people, including a policeman and a suspect, were killed in a shooting incident in Wasco, a small city located in central California.

-- On May 26, 2021, nine people were killed and at least another injured after a shooting at a Valley Transportation Authority yard north of downtown San Jose in California.



-- On May 9, 2021, six adults were killed when a suspect opened fire at a birthday party in Colorado Springs, police said, adding the suspect took his own life on scene.

-- On April 29, 2021, two deputies and three other people including a suspected gunman were shot dead after a lengthy standoff at a residence in North Carolina.

-- On April 15, 2021, eight people were killed and multiple people suffered gunshot wounds that required hospitalization after a shooting at a FedEx facility on the southwest side of Indianapolis, the capital of Indiana.

-- On March 22, 2021, ten people, including one police officer, were killed in a mass shooting at a supermarket in Boulder, Colorado.

-- On March 16, 2021, eight people were killed and another one was injured in three shooting incidents in the metropolitan area of Atlanta, Georgia.

-- On Feb. 2, 2021, five children and an adult were killed in a shooting in Muskogee, Oklahoma.

-- On June 6, 2020, a shooting at a child's birthday party in Northern California's Vallejo left two women dead and three people injured.

-- On June 5, 2020, seven people were killed in Alabama in an overnight shooting.

-- On Feb. 26, 2020, seven people, including the shooter, were killed in a shooting on a company campus in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.


Quite the development. The other criminals, the ones typically in blue garb, don't help either.
 
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Why don't people protest in the streets demanding that the Senators and Representatives who were complicit in 1/6 be removed?
 

merp

Starman
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Why don't people protest in the streets demanding that the Senators and Representatives who were complicit in 1/6 be removed?
I wish.

The problem is that there isn't a mass movement to hold these people accountable.

Anyways:

Failure to Co-Operate: Organizing in Response to Consumer Co-Ops Behaving Badly


From the article:

Mike Woliansky, CEO of No Evil Foods, a plant-based food company with a supposed mission to eschew evil, delivered a speech to employees two years ago touting the wage increases and health benefits they had recently received and pointing to those job perks as evidence that workers need not concern themselves with business decisions.

“I think our track record as a team and as a company shows that you can trust us, and that you don’t have to pay an outside organization” – meaning a labor union – “to speak on your behalf,” Woliansky told workers in that January 2020 meeting. “We already believe that all of your voices are powerful.”

Lest workers get the wrong idea about where power really lies, No Evil Foods terminated employees and engaged in a bevy of union-busting tactics when workers in Weaverville, North Carolina, tried to unionize two years back.

Echoing almost verbatim the rhetoric Woliansky used to discourage unionization circa January 2020, Eric Artz, the CEO of REI, an outdoor-oriented member-owned cooperative, recently extolled his company’s “employee inclusion networks” designed “to hear voices, to build community,” but then tellingly averred: “I do not believe that introducing a union is the right thing for REI.”

Employees, known as “green vests” at REI, begged to differ.

“As green vests, we believe ‘a life outdoors is a life well lived’ and in order for that to be viable and accessible to us, we need to be at the bargaining table alongside REI leadership to work out a collective bargaining agreement that works for us,” said Claire Chang, a retail sales specialist and member of the organizing committee that helped secure a majority vote for unionization with the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union (RWDSU) at REI SoHo in Manhattan. The store became the first REI location to unionize, per an early March press release from RWDSU.

Similarly, Starbucks, a company that congratulates itself for “investing in humanity,” has seen more than 200 franchise locations file for unionization as of mid-April 2022.

Starbucks claims to nurture “the human spirit” and cultivate “a culture of warmth and belonging” while also “challenging the status quo,” but the CEO Howard Schultz prefers an established order without employees exercising meaningful say in workplace decisions. The company acknowledges employees – “partners,” as they’re called – “are at the heart of the Starbucks experience,” and despite a professed commitment to making “partners proud and investing in their health, well-being and success,” baristas at a Starbucks in Olympia, Washington, walked off the job in late March to oppose ongoing union-busting, a day after a store about 60 miles away in Seattle, where the company has its headquarters, voted to unionize. Baristas in the Pacific Northwest also set up a relief fund to fortify themselves against union-busting tactics, like cutting worker hours.

The coffee mega-chain’s alleged commitment “to creating a culture of belonging where everyone is welcome” hasn’t stopped its higher-ups from threatening to shut down stores in Buffalo, New York, where the union drive started, or from excluding pro-union employees from meetings critical of worker representation other “partners” have been pressured to attend. Starbucks workers in Ithaca, about a three-hour drive from Buffalo, walked off the job and out to the picket lines on April 16, and they too are accepting strike fund donations.

In contrast to the SBWorkers United approach of publicly declaring union campaigns at various Starbucks locations to generate enthusiasm and support, a media contact for RWDSU noted the retail-oriented labor organization doesn’t announce union drives prior to elections for fear it will hurt workers, making it unclear as to whether green vests across the country will share the same success baristas have enjoyed.

A presumption of progressivism associated with consumer cooperatives like REI, given their internal structure predicated upon shared ownership by members who in theory democratically elect a board responsible for governance, appears to elide as well as enable bad behavior and anti-union management, often provoking workers to organize in response.

Definitely get organized; don't just vote, everyone.
 

jkm23

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I wish.

The problem is that there isn't a mass movement to hold these people accountable.

Anyways:

Failure to Co-Operate: Organizing in Response to Consumer Co-Ops Behaving Badly


From the article:



Definitely get organized; don't just vote, everyone.

Boy I hesitated to even comment bc some days, welp, I'll leave out the nasty words.

No company is your friend and its insulting when any company says such a thing.

Also tiring to go along everyday life as if class warefare level WWIII ISN'T actively happening but hey, welcome to America. Giving up hope isn't useful but none of us should lie and say that we have hope every day. Some days you can see where this whole ship is headed and those of us who are supposedly on our side couldn't find the ocean if they were on the fucking boat.
 

merp

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Got sent this video.



It's a YouTube channel dedicated to labor struggles so I'd recommend subscribing.
 
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The Supreme Court has voted to strike down the landmark Roe v. Wade decision, according to an initial draft majority opinion written by Justice Samuel Alito circulated inside the court and obtained by POLITICO.

The draft opinion is a full-throated, unflinching repudiation of the 1973 decision which guaranteed federal constitutional protections of abortion rights and a subsequent 1992 decision – Planned Parenthood v. Casey – that largely maintained the right. “Roe was egregiously wrong from the start,” Alito writes.
 

SlumWolf

filth is my politics, filth is my life
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for those looking to do some monetary good, this is a tool to split funds between a good number of local abortion funds: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/fundabortionnow

now is as good of a time as any to look into mutual aid/grassroots orgs focused on building community power in your area. voting alone is, as always, not enough
 

totofogo

you just got luigi'd
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Are these three posts the entirety of the discussion about this here or am I just missing a thread?
 

jkm23

Octorok
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Are these three posts the entirety of the discussion about this here or am I just missing a thread?

You aren't missing anything.

Frankly, a lot of us are burnt out on this and considering the tenor of other places they've been, maybe they just want to keep things light. I know I do, I mean I said it all in my other post in this thread, I personally have nothing more to add. Politics isn't something my generation has ever done with any tangible success, it has been and continues to be done to us. Why rehash this on a fun gaming forum?
 

totofogo

you just got luigi'd
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You aren't missing anything.

Frankly, a lot of us are burnt out on this and considering the tenor of other places they've been, maybe they just want to keep things light. I know I do, I mean I said it all in my other post in this thread, I personally have nothing more to add. Politics isn't something my generation has ever done with any tangible success, it has been and continues to be done to us. Why rehash this on a fun gaming forum?

Makes sense! I very rarely come over to the roost so I very much understand that sentiment, I was just surprised to not see a thread is all.
 

Monster Mash

Cappy
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On the topic of organizing, a book I highly recommend:

41S0bbgYwAL._SX339_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 

Branduil

Shriekbat
I remember libs for decades making fun of reactionaries for voting based on abortion when their leaders didn't really want to ban it. Turns out it was Dems who never wanted to protect it instead.
 

Shiba

Moblin
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I generally would be looking into how to get out of the USA because in about 3-5 years if you’re not pretty much a straight white male then you’re fucked.

Might kill myself before that point to spare me of the inevitable future.
 
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Darth_Ghandi

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I remember libs for decades making fun of reactionaries for voting based on abortion when their leaders didn't really want to ban it. Turns out it was Dems who never wanted to protect it instead.

Carter, Clinton, Obama all had the chance to make federal law. Just depressing.
 

jkm23

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At this point, I wait for someone to convince me that electoral politics truly matter at all. Labor organization is our only hope, rn.

If you're under a certain age, you've been failed by politics your entire life, at the very least on a national level, and regarding the environment, housing and sustainability have failed at all levels. Just a fucking shitshow. People (nasty people online) will ream people who are essentially on the side for saying the following, 'I just can't anymore'. Especially people around my age, early to mid 30s, you lived through 'Yes we can' turn into the rise of facism with motherfucking speed. You voted for the right people, you donated, you argued online, in person, when to demonstrations, put your heart behind occupy wallstreet, blm, etc...
And the prize was? A future darker than your parents had.

As an aside, I feel like there is a failing in teaching about civil rights and progressive moments/successes. This fucking shit took time, labor movement, women's movement, civil rights, gay rights, anything that was won took time. When I was younger, even armed with the knowledge that progress in America was never, ever a straight arrow going up with no backsliding, I though modern people were better. I really did. I was young and dumb and probably a lot of my disillusionment comes from the 2009-2015 period and the progress that was made. I was convinced that we were in the period of rapid progress, rather than the south circa 1890s getting ready the the Plessy v. Ferguson decision to get handed down. We're in 1890s south territory now. Fuck, we've even got a supreme court decision taking away rights the very same way! Not to mention voter supression getting ramped up the same way. What I mean is that we're in total back slide mode. Buckle in buckaroos, we've got a while to go.... (Hopefully this helps your labor organization arguement lol, another parallel from that time! Just call it the 1890s again lol)
 

Crusters

Koopa
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Glenn Greenwald is an annoying turd who needs to log off but questioning his marriage to his husband is an incredibly stupid thing to do lol

Also,


The author of this book is a fascist



For those of you playing at home, Wirth was a Nazi.


This is just from his Wikipedia. No surprise coming from a self-proclaimed anticommunist. Almost like anticommunism is the foundational tenet of fascism. 🤔

But this isn't the first time fascist literature has been posted on sites like ResetERA just because they support western hegemony.
"But this isn't the first time fascist literature has been posted on sites like ResetERA just because they support western hegemony."

It's...... More than just that.

Just because you have to pick a starting point, I'm going to start with Bob Whitaker, because if recent events involving his repackaged garbage he dubbed the White Mantra (It's the modern packaging of the white replacement theory being spewed non stop by Tucker carlson, and GOP leadership).

Bob Whitaker was a self admitted Nazi, and also a Reagan Appointee and Republican strategist. You may remember his embarrassing bid for presidency where he was curb stomped by trump, shortly before he died. You probably don't.

While Whitakers overt public pushing of Nazi rhetoric was too soon for his time.... By literally just a couple years.....

He was shockingly adept at online propaganda for a crusty boomer. He started a blog, where in 2006 he posted his Nazi White replacement Mantra. Using his connections and funding he hired people to begin seeding the internet with his white genocide rhetoric. Just all day, posting copypasta of the mantra to message boards, social media comment sections, to recruit. Nazi groups immediately picked up and joined in, ANP, SNP, atomwaffen, and the like. But what he was really after, what he designed the victim playing white genocide framework for, were people who new the word Nazi was bad, and would run away from it, but would respond to the Nazi rhetoric if the word Nazi was simply removed.

This saw wild success, as soon the Nazis themselves did not have to directly participate anymore, it was going viral. Whitaker soon acquired another website to organize this strategy, which he called swarming. For almost 2 decades, Whitaker had thousands of people every day were reporting all the places they distributed the mantra to, so that others could see and support them, creating feedback loops anywhere they encountered resistance. The swarming strategy caught on and spread across the internet, even crossing over to other right wing events like gamergate.

Even now though, 5 years after his death, while most participants went to the wealth of other active options, his stupid website is still up, and there are a handful of people who are still conducting original Bob Whitaker Swarms to this day.

Its not happenstance.
 

Christo750

Paratroopa
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The reporting maintains that Biden is having a really tough time figuring out what to do about student loans. Really feels like the biggest political slam dunk, if it's explained correctly and not overly aggrandized.

Students get the big debt relief and have the capital to invest in homes/cars/the arts. It opens up the market for trade workers, artists, etc. It's a HUGE burden that gets lifted off so many people. And it frankly would guarantee votes. I don't even have that much debt left, I openly was not planning on voting in the next election, maybe not even the midterms (see my post above), but if Biden were to do that? Blue would get my vote easy.
 

jkm23

Octorok
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Broken beyond fucking repair. Completely non functional and the only way out is to earn enough money so the problems don't apply to you. Thats it. Pack it up.

I'm not even going vote next election, fuck them all. I've voted every year since 2012. Fuck. Them. All.
 

Brock Reiher

Kremling
The reporting maintains that Biden is having a really tough time figuring out what to do about student loans. Really feels like the biggest political slam dunk, if it's explained correctly and not overly aggrandized.
The difficulty of having a straightforward thing that everyone wants you to do when you would rather die than do it.
 

Brawlz

Think you can take me?!
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The reporting maintains that Biden is having a really tough time figuring out what to do about student loans. Really feels like the biggest political slam dunk, if it's explained correctly and not overly aggrandized.

Students get the big debt relief and have the capital to invest in homes/cars/the arts. It opens up the market for trade workers, artists, etc. It's a HUGE burden that gets lifted off so many people. And it frankly would guarantee votes. I don't even have that much debt left, I openly was not planning on voting in the next election, maybe not even the midterms (see my post above), but if Biden were to do that? Blue would get my vote easy.
As amazing as that sounds, and seeing how vitriolic American politics is, I doubt it'd be a complete homerun, but it would be fantastic to see.

Also, hasn't he promised to do this? Wouldn't that mean this isn't a question of if, but how much relief?
 

Monster Mash

Cappy
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would be hard to get enough buy-in for it to make a noticeable change imo
Speaking in the hypothetical alternative world where a buyback gets implemented - what if the government were to offer a sizable markup to further incentivize people giving them up?
 

Xaltmas

Paratroopa
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At least all those dumpy fucking Nazis getting arrested in Idaho was funny.

It's hard to not just doom scroll all day every day. Just a bunch of fascistic Christian Nationalist freaks dragging us further back in time to some version of the 1950s that never existed while the planet slowly cooks us all alive.

Voting isn't going to save this nation.
 
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Why don't a bunch of Democrats move to Wyoming, North and South Dakota,, Montana, Iowa, and Idaho, and flip them blue? That's 22 Electoral Votes right there, and 12 Democratic Senators.
 

InsaneZero

Rattata
If the Court wants to overturn precedent and make stare decisis laughable, then the other branches should overturn Marbury v. Madison since judicial review isn't a thing that's specified anywhere in the Constitution either. These rulings only have power because everybody else treats it like it does.
 
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I remembered that fantastic little tune "Know Your Enemy" by Rage Against the Machine, and hummed-

Yes, I know my enemies
They're the teachers who taught me to fight me
Compromise
Conformity
Assimilation
Submission
Ignorance
Hypocrisy
Brutality
The elite
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams


Stay strong people, and stand up for what we believe in! Never submit, never surrender!
 
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He/Him
Just in case you think things can't get any worse, the Supreme Court will soon have a ruling on the EPA's powers to regulate climate change.
I truly believe America (and many other places in the world) is too stupid, fat, and weak to deal with climate change, and that slow train coming will seriously render the world into a completely different place.

Good luck and see you on the other side, we're literally pouring gasoline onto the trash fire now of "young nation finds out what old nations found out years ago".
 


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