News Shin Megami Tensei V: Vengeance announced for PC and consoles, coming June 14th (UPDATE: trailer #2, see threadmarks)

[Elementary]

Exploring palaces/dungeons and RPG aspects like battles system are things I most liked. Story, characters and outside activities are cool too, but I liked more the RPG part of game.

Then yeah you'll probably enjoy mainline. Nocturne's a good starting place, but my personal preference is Strange Journey. Surprisingly, Devil Survivor OC is also a good recommendation on that side, though it's still a spinoff. Vengeance should be good when it comes out, but every so often these games expect you have a bit of context to make the experience better...

I don't necessarily know about that - I love both SMT and Persona. It's probably more that if what you really love about Persona is the life sim/slice-of-life stuff and not the combat/demons/dungeons, then SMT might not be for you. But if you do like that side of it there's a lot to like in SMT as well.

It's a bit of an oversimplification, but there's a reason that Persona outsells the rest of the MegaTen games. What most people like is characters and the social elements, instead of post-apocalyptic dungeon crawling with the occasional cutscene.

And I say that as someone who LOVES post-apocalyptic dungeon crawling with the occasional cutscene.

 

[zumaddy]

Can't wait to face this dude again after he took me 10+ tries last time at the stupid train station

 

[ertaboy356b]

Can't wait to face this dude again after he took me 10+ tries last time at the stupid train station

I remember obliterating that dude. I got that huge physical immune demon under the bridge.

 

[zumaddy]

I remember obliterating that dude. I got that huge physical immune demon under the bridge.

I was stupidly stubborn trying to keep beating him with my party I had out of spite

 

[Sorbete]

I honestly didn't notice any issues while playing SMTV on switch. Gonna buy Vengeance on switch ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[PixelKnight]

I honestly didn't notice any issues while playing SMTV on switch. Gonna buy Vengeance on switch ¯\(ツ)/¯

I didn’t mind either. I thought the main story was rather simple compared to previous games, but I did every sidequest and there was enough there for me to see the wider effect of the story on all the major powers. I only rarely notice the performance stuff that seems obvious to some players too. I just enjoyed the ride, most of which was cool open areas full of monsters to fight and turn into a strong formation. Neither regular point of criticism of SMTV bothered me at all.

I’d really love them to get SMT4 off the 3DS at some point though. Also for Strange Journey Redux too. But at that point I’m like ‘I want all of Atlus’s games off the 3DS and on the eshop’ and by the time you include the EO games there’s like a dozen of them

 

[Leo]

I didn't mind the performance either, but like, if I'm paying full price to play the same game, I at least want it to look and run better. The game would look gorgeous in 1080p, I want that experience if possible.

 

[Weiss]

The game on Switch already let you suspend the console and come back later. I guess that OS feature removed the tension and ruined the game. Thanks Nintendo!

Describe in as many words as you need the difference between suspending your playthrough and a hard save.

 

[Aurelia]

Describe in as many words as you need the difference between suspending your playthrough and a hard save.

I ... sense that the original post was deeply sarcastic.

Of all the things for people to complain about, saving everywhere is certainly a thing.

 

[Weiss]

I ... sense that the original post was deeply sarcastic.

Of all the things for people to complain about, saving everywhere is certainly a thing.

Sometimes it's okay for video games to not be designed with immediate convenience in mind.

You can save anywhere in SMTIV because the consequence for dying is shelling out a ton of money (in a game where money is a tight resource) to revive, so you'll only ever suffer for this if you've forgotten to save.

SMTV saving at fixed locations means exploring is a journey from each of them where you hastily warp back at the cost of losing your forward momentum. It's a risk/reward balance where the further you go the more you'll lose until your next save.

It's basic RPG design.

 

[Gianko]

But will it be improved visually on Switch too?

 

[ILikeFeet]

But will it be improved visually on Switch too?

might run better thanks to an updated UE4

 

[Paxie]

Sometimes it's okay for video games to not be designed with immediate convenience in mind.

You can save anywhere in SMTIV because the consequence for dying is shelling out a ton of money (in a game where money is a tight resource) to revive, so you'll only ever suffer for this if you've forgotten to save.

SMTV saving at fixed locations means exploring is a journey from each of them where you hastily warp back at the cost of losing your forward momentum. It's a risk/reward balance where the further you go the more you'll lose until your next save.

It's basic RPG design.

I remember getting to the penultimate dungeon in IVA and they made a big deal about every death being a "permanent" game over... except Save Anywhere killed any tension since you had infinite number of self-made checkpoints. I think Save Anywhere should be for the open world segments, but not for dungeons or more designed areas of the Da'at

 

[MissingNo.]

The thing about being able to save anywhere is that it is there for those who want it, and those who don't can easily ignore it. So I don't really see much of an issue there.

 

[Razgriz]

SMTV saving at fixed locations means exploring is a journey from each of them where you hastily warp back at the cost of losing your forward momentum. It's a risk/reward balance where the further you go the more you'll lose until your next save.

It also helps with pacing; save anywhere can make it very difficult to plan out a session if you don't have 8 hours every day to play videogames.

It's something that I think tends to be undervalued in modern games - save anywhere is popular but it also utterly wrecks pacing. Should I save now or is there a big fight coming up I want to be ready for? Can I safely explore more or should I retreat because there are real life obligations I have to take care of. Am I interrupting a major story beat or am I in a safe "downtime" as far as story goes.

Save points always telegraph these sorts of things in advance without really revealing any tricks besides "something important lies ahead" - I can choose to take a break instead of needing to be on alert at all times that I could wander into a 30 minute cutscene/boss fight that I am underleveled for that I can't rewatch or reload out of without losing 4 hours of progress. They're a "it's now safe to stop/keep playing" sign. There are other gameplay models that help with this sort of pacing (mission design is my personal favorite), but the "save point strikeout" approach is one that is very much welcomed for this style of play.

 

[Weiss]

I remember getting to the penultimate dungeon in IVA and they made a big deal about every death being a "permanent" game over... except Save Anywhere killed any tension since you had infinite number of self-made checkpoints. I think Save Anywhere should be for the open world segments, but not for dungeons or more designed areas of the Da'at

SMTV doesn't really have a traditional Field/Dungeon setup and the overworld maps themselves exist as dungeons, essentially. It's a lot like Strange Journey in that regard.

The thing about being able to save anywhere is that it is there for those who want it, and those who don't can easily ignore it. So I don't really see much of an issue there.

Not really. Where and how you can save is a design choice that influences and is influenced by the million other design choices that make up a whole game. SMTIV let you save anywhere because that's a game where any ambush can wipe you out, and the tangible consequence of not having a recent save to fall back on means you'll save often. Likewise with SMTV, a game where the save points act as checkpoint that I can warp back to at my leisure; it is classic RPG design with fixed save points and the modern convenience of being able to save any time I want.

A game that lets me save anywhere expects me to do it, and having basic, fundamental and good RPG design relegated to the realm of challenge runs is silly.

It also helps with pacing; save anywhere can make it very difficult to plan out a session if you don't have 8 hours every day to play videogames.

It's something that I think tends to be undervalued in modern games - save anywhere is popular but it also utterly wrecks pacing. Should I save now or is there a big fight coming up I want to be ready for? Can I safely explore more or should I retreat because there are real life obligations I have to take care of. Am I interrupting a major story beat or am I in a safe "downtime" as far as story goes.

Save points always telegraph these sorts of things in advance without really revealing any tricks besides "something important lies ahead" - I can choose to take a break instead of needing to be on alert at all times that I could wander into a 30 minute cutscene/boss fight that I am underleveled for that I can't rewatch or reload out of without losing 4 hours of progress. They're a "it's now safe to stop/keep playing" sign. There are other gameplay models that help with this sort of pacing (mission design is my personal favorite), but the "save point strikeout" approach is one that is very much welcomed for this style of play.

Mm-hmm. Audiences get too wrapped up in immediate convenience they forget how games subtly work that convenience without their knowing.

I never lost more progress in either SMTIV or V as I did in SMTIV Apoc (a game with no consequence for death and free saves) when I ragequit after a boss rush and lost three hours of progress. Why would I bother saving in preparation of a boss fight when the only time you need to save is when you're turning the game off?

 

[PixelKnight]

I ... sense that the original post was deeply sarcastic.

Of all the things for people to complain about, saving everywhere is certainly a thing.

Well, it’s a pacing and tension and conserving resources and risk/reward discussion in game design, convenience in such elements isnt always better in a game designed to make you feel threatened and deciding whether another fight is worth the risk. Which is a discussion I find a lot more interesting in rpg design than various complaints about frame rates etc.

 

[Aurelia]

Well, it’s a pacing and tension and conserving resources and risk/reward discussion in game design, convenience in such elements isnt always better in a game designed to make you feel threatened and deciding whether another fight is worth the risk. Which is a discussion I find a lot more interesting in rpg design than various complaints about frame rates etc.

MissingNo expressed my thoughts on the matter better than I could so I'll leave it there. Y'all can continue to debate that endlessly if you like.

The thing about being able to save anywhere is that it is there for those who want it, and those who don't can easily ignore it. So I don't really see much of an issue there.

 

[MissingNo.]

Not really. Where and how you can save is a design choice that influences and is influenced by the million other design choices that make up a whole game. SMTIV let you save anywhere because that's a game where any ambush can wipe you out, and the tangible consequence of not having a recent save to fall back on means you'll save often. Likewise with SMTV, a game where the save points act as checkpoint that I can warp back to at my leisure; it is classic RPG design with fixed save points and the modern convenience of being able to save any time I want.

A game that lets me save anywhere expects me to do it, and having basic, fundamental and good RPG design relegated to the realm of challenge runs is silly.

I don't disagree; ideally a game is designed around where and how often it lets you save. We'll see how they implement it in practice, but as long as save points are still there, albeit made somewhat redundant, I'll just keep using those and only resort to save anywhere when something comes up and I immediately have to drop the game.

 

[Leo]

Ideally, there would be a "save anywhere" on/off toggle and that's that. Atlus knows this is important for part of their fan base, so idk why they don't just do that.

 

[PixelKnight]

MissingNo expressed my thoughts on the matter better than I could so I'll leave it there. Y'all can continue to debate that endlessly if you like.

Well, your snark over ‘of all the things to argue about’, as well as the further passive aggressive stuff above, was worth challenging whether you choose to disengage or not. If you can’t engage without ‘endlessly’ implying others are wasting their time discussing rpg mechanics in an rpg thread about a combat-heavy rpg, that’s on you.

 

[Wockio]

They should have just done fixed saving + quick saving like Nocturne HD. You keep the benefits of having limited saving spots, such as saves not being abusable and preserving intended game design but you can still suspend the game at a certain point without losing progress if you need to.

 

[SammyJ9]

Increasing the level cap to 150 and having 40 new demons is pretty exciting. I wonder if there’s a story reason or way that you could even get Lucifer this time around

 

[Xorhan]

I've gone through the new demons confirmed so far and noticed a few things.

Excluding the new demons designed by Doi (Lilith and the gang, Nahoheno and the Dog-Cat thing), we've seen 21 demons returning from previous titles.
Among them:

• 13 (Vritra, Vouivre, Kudlak, Dormarth, Nezha, Turbo Granny, Kinmamon, Halphas, Gremlin, Fenrir, Tzitzimitl, Zhu Tun She, Armaiti) were featured in SH2
• 7 (Gogmagog, Cherub, Dis, Xiezhai, Ifrit, Karasu Tengu, and Pellaidh) never had an HD quality model before (except for some of them who appeared in Dx2)
• and then there's Unicorn, which was one of the very few demons from Persona 5/Royal who was not featured in Vanilla SMT V (for some reason).

It's pretty clear that a lot of the remaining returning demons are going to come from SH2, but it's nice that they are also adding some that haven't appeared in a while but are kinda weird to leave out.

Excluding the ones who were already in SMT V, AI-ho and the elemental Frosts, here are the remaining demons from SH2 that we have not seen yet in Vengeance:
-Kresnik
-Hare of Inaba
-Mad Gasser
-Nozuchi
-Doppelganger
-Gurulu (Gurr)
-Saturnus
-Satan
-Ardha
-Masakado

Among these, I'll say that Kresnik is pretty much guaranteed to be in VV: his rival Kudlak is already confirmed and I'm pretty sure they've always appeared together in the series.
As for the rest, I hope to see Gurulu so the Raptor race can feel more "complete" (I'd like to believe that's a factor they're keeping in mind for deciding who to add in this re-release), same thing for Mad Gasser/Doppelganger for the Fool race (though the latter doesn't count since it uses a modified Ringo model in SH2, though they can easily do the same with the Nahobino here).

As for demons who were not featured in SH2, I hope they add the remaining types of angels, Virtue and Seraphim. It would be kind of a waste to add Cherub (who didn't have a 3d model before this game) but leave those two out.
Virtue specifically has already an HD-ready model from P3 Reload, alongside other demons I would like to see like Wu Kong, Samael, and Nidhoggr. I am not sure if adding demons featured in a game released 4 months prior is as easy as adding ones from a 2-year-old game, but I guess we'll see.

EDIT: I forgot that Nozuchi was in SH2. That's another demon they could add if they want to embiggen the numbers of one of the underreped races in the original game

 

[Suswave]

Huge props for them to acknowledging the original game was a bit of a mess.

I'm very hyped for this, watching the subtitled livestream, their heart seems to be in the right place.

if they’re going based off of those screenshots, that’s very literally not at all what they said, lmao

i did not watch the video so I am willing to be wrong

but the presented screenshots are just “we had lots of ideas and didn’t implement them all”

 

[Leo]

if they’re going based off of those screenshots, that’s very literally not at all what they said, lmao

i did not watch the video so I am willing to be wrong

but the presented screenshots are just “we had lots of ideas and didn’t implement them all”

Yeah, that's pretty much what I got from what he said. People are just projecting.

SMTV's story was fine. It wasn't super interesting and there was wasted potential, but it was far from a mess.

 

[Yamanoi]

Preorders are up: Not $70 sadly @Aurc

Steam

Xbox

PS5/PS4

Switch (not up yet)

New trailer -

 

[Xorhan]

From the Famitsu interview with the game director:

 

[Leica]

From the Famitsu interview with the game director:

Amazing change. Really happy with this, this was the biggest issue with the combat in the original game.

 

[MarcelRguez]

There's one thing that I'm not sure about: do the system changes and rebalancing affect the original scenario of the game as well, or are they only being implemented in the new route? We can presume they affect the whole game, but they haven't said as much, have they?

 

[Weiss]

From the Famitsu interview with the game director:

V's level scaling felt like a great way to encourage sidequests while keeping bosses appropriately challenging, so I fear how this could turn out.

Boss is level 25 > go do sidequests until you're also level 25 > hey look you're organically prepared for the upcoming boss fight.

 

[Razgriz]

V's level scaling felt like a great way to encourage sidequests while keeping bosses appropriately challenging, so I fear how this could turn out.

Boss is level 25 > go do sidequests until you're also level 25 > hey look you're organically prepared for the upcoming boss fight.

The main problem it has is that because of the aggressive level scaling, it creates this weird situation where SMT5s demons are more customizable than ever (you can literally use essences to swap demon resistances around and grant moves they couldn't without having to go through the fusion process to stick Null moves and such on them which occupy move slots they could have used), yet still have a forced "falloff" that is unavoidable without grinding up the demons.

Every SMT game after 2 has the option for you to take one demon you really like and just keep jacking up the stats and moves for it to keep it viable, even if it's 30+ levels below your main character.

Mitama fusion (fusing a demon with a Mitama creates that demon, but with a few extra stat points) jumps to mind as something that's been in almost every recent game. 5's level scaling throws a wrench into that, which is at odds with the rest of the game.

 

[Weiss]

The main problem it has is that because of the aggressive level scaling, it creates this weird situation where SMT5s demons are more customizable than ever (you can literally use essences to swap demon resistances around and grant moves they couldn't without having to go through the fusion process to stick Null moves and such on them which occupy move slots they could have used), yet still have a forced "falloff" that is unavoidable without grinding up the demons.

Every SMT game after 2 has the option for you to take one demon you really like and just keep jacking up the stats and moves for it to keep it viable, even if it's 30+ levels below your main character.

Mitama fusion (fusing a demon with a Mitama creates that demon, but with a few extra stat points) jumps to mind as something that's been in almost every recent game. 5's level scaling throws a wrench into that, which is at odds with the rest of the game.

I carried Yoshitsune and Idun through the entire game by feeding them stat boosters and grimoires. SMTV is the easiest game in letting you carry demons across your entire playthrough.

Moreover if the game is designed around a succession of temporary party members that feed into the next using demon fusion (the series' core mechanic) idk why it needs to give me the option to carry a favourite demon all the way. Every SMT before Nocturne didn't even let demons level up; the "forced falloff" is just the natural ebb and flow of how all MegaTen games are designed.

 

[lattjeful]

There's one thing that I'm not sure about: do the system changes and rebalancing affect the original scenario of the game as well, or are they only being implemented in the new route? We can presume they affect the whole game, but they haven't said as much, have they?

I had the same question when Vengeance was announced, and it seems like the full interview says the changes cover both. There's even going to some added character interactions for the OG game:

"Komori: In the previous title, there were many comments expressing how they wished the relationships between characters would have been explored more in depth, so we addressed that in the two main scenarios and additional quests in this game. Through each scenario, you should be able to gain a deeper understanding of each character’s inner workings and motivations."

Wording to me sounds like they've expanded the original game and not just saved all the meat for the new path. AFAIK the rebalance and the system changes are being brought to both too, though that was known already.

 

[SammyJ9]

I had the same question when Vengeance was announced, and it seems like the full interview says the changes cover both. There's even going to some added character interactions for the OG game:

"Komori: In the previous title, there were many comments expressing how they wished the relationships between characters would have been explored more in depth, so we addressed that in the two main scenarios and additional quests in this game. Through each scenario, you should be able to gain a deeper understanding of each character’s inner workings and motivations."

Wording to me sounds like they've expanded the original game and not just saved all the meat for the new path. AFAIK the rebalance and the system changes are being brought to both too, though that was known already.

They’re adding story and character stuff to the base game too? Dang. I’m not playing through that again when the new path is there, but it might be good for some YouTube watching.

 

[lattjeful]

They’re adding story and character stuff to the base game too? Dang. I’m not playing through that again when the new path is there, but it might be good for some YouTube watching.

Honestly very happy about it. I know the story goes off the rails later in the game but I'm glad they're also fleshing out what they have instead of just going "Hey there's this fancy new story to play. The old one's there too, I guess..." I don't expect much when the Vengeance path is the star of the show, but the fact that they're even touching anything story related in the OG game rules.

 

[JRPGHurtsWallet]

I honestly didn't notice any issues while playing SMTV on switch. Gonna buy Vengeance on switch ¯\(ツ)/¯

You didn't notice the enemies in the distance rendering at 10fps?

 

[Sorbete]

You didn't notice the enemies in the distance rendering at 10fps?

Don't even know what you are talking about. Not trying to downplay people that consider that important but I'm too busy enjoying the gameplay to notice the fps stuff. Other games that people say run bad on switch such as Original Sin 2, Lacrimosa of Dana, etc I have played on Switch and not even once I thought about fps, resolution and stuff.

 

[Wockio]

Can't wait to face this dude again after he took me 10+ tries last time at the stupid train station

For me it was Lahmu. Took me like 4 tries before I finally beat it... and then forgot to save before quitting.

Had to try easy another 10-15 times. Yes, I could have just leveled up but I wanted to prove to myself it wasn't just a fluke. Also that was the battle that made me realize that you aren't supposed to play this like Pokemon where you have one dedicated team and that's it.

EDIT: Oh and another one was the devil girl before the Demon Castle. If you don't reduce literally all her turns it's basically unbeatable without using high value consumables like Magic Mirror.

 

[MarcelRguez]

I had the same question when Vengeance was announced, and it seems like the full interview says the changes cover both. There's even going to some added character interactions for the OG game:

"Komori: In the previous title, there were many comments expressing how they wished the relationships between characters would have been explored more in depth, so we addressed that in the two main scenarios and additional quests in this game. Through each scenario, you should be able to gain a deeper understanding of each character’s inner workings and motivations."

Wording to me sounds like they've expanded the original game and not just saved all the meat for the new path. AFAIK the rebalance and the system changes are being brought to both too, though that was known already.

Now I'm more intrigued about those interactions.
Thanks, seems like all those changes will make for a substantially different experience as far as the old route goes.

 

[Marce-chan]

The fact that the Switch pre-orders aren't up yet makes me hopeful they'll also offer the new content as an expansion for people that already have SMT V. If that's the case I'll be in ASAP.

 

[PixelKnight]

The fact that the Switch pre-orders aren't up yet makes me hopeful they'll also offer the new content as an expansion for people that already have SMT V. If that's the case I'll be in ASAP.

It’s up on Amazon UK for £55

 

[Bonejack]

The physical preorders for Switch were dated the same as the ones for PS5 and Xbox, only the digital preorder for Switch was/is delayed.

 

[Bokuringo]

Will get the game on Switch, but it's interesting that there's no longer a physical copy on PS4 to preorder. Another one after Granblue Fantasy Relink, at least in Europe.

 

[Xorhan]

Some new information from the latest Famitsy Issue:

Spoiler

-The other members of the Qadistu are Namaah (the blonde one), Eisheth Zenunim (the one with the braids), and Agrat bat Mahlat (the one with the witch hat). All are said to be mates of Samael so it's highly likely that he'll get a redesign in this game
-Mad Gasser and Senri are confirmed to be in the game
-The new dog-like demon is Glasya-Labolas. He is a demon from the Ars Goetia and he belongs to the Beast race
-Alongside every demon receiving a unique passive skill, some demons like Jack o' Lantern and Pellaidh will receive new unique spells
-Over 20 new Magatsuhi skills will be added, some of them will be "Fusion spells" that can be activated if you have certain demons in your party (like the four archangels as shown in the picture)
-New unique conversations between specific demons are going to be added
-Some of the human characters will join your party as temporary members in certain parts of the story

 

[SammyJ9]

That all sounds good to me! I might have to do a Hard playthrough this time around - I wonder if all these new skills and unique abilities will be a little unbalanced at times.

 

[ziggyrivers]

Samael? Isn't that one of the names of Lucifer?

 

[Marce-chan]

Samael? Isn't that one of the names of Lucifer?

(It can be about the series plot so I'm sorry in advance if that's the case).

There's a lot of fuckery in demonology because almost all of it came from non-canon books that didn't enter the Bible or the Torah but are mentioned in the canon books.

The most famous is the Book of Enoch. That's where the "fallen angel" narrative comes from, it comes from nowhere in the Bible or Torah. The angels that fell from heaven were angels send to earth that ended up having children with humans(the Nefilins, giants). That's also were it's mentioned that Raphael, Gabriel and Michael defeated the angels and imprisoned them(not on hell tho but there's another apocryphal that says the diluvium was to drown the giants). The most famous fallen angel was Azazel. Azazel is then taken as the one that turned into Satanas.

The medieval epic romance Paradise Lost mixes the "fallen Morning Star" of the bible(which was talking about the Babylonian king and not an angel) and the Enoch rebel angels and makes the most famous version that was turned to "canon" since that's the story that people preach about now. In that one, Lucifer rebels and is trapped in hell alongside the other rebel angels. And he then turns to Satan.

I believe Samael is one of the demons believed to be the Serpent? Tho most people argue that it would be Satan, or that Samael is the name Satan had in heaven?

The original Sigil of Baphomet had Samael and Lilith written so maybe in the story that Lilith found Lucifer after she was cast away from Eden is the source of Samael being the name of Lucifer?

There's a lot of messy stuff on Judeo-Christian scatology that carries to demonology. Moreso because many gods or goddesses of ancient religions are either bashed or flat out said to be demons on the Bible. So there's popular beliefs like Beelzebub and Lucifer and Satan being all names for the same demon when that's clearly not the case since Beelzebub for example is bashing the god Baal(I like that both are represented in SMT differently btw!). Satanael in P5 was a great moment for me too.

Sorry for the lengthy ass post and sorry again if it comes out as explaining something you're already familiar with, I'm just watching a lot of videos on esoteric/occult/demonology/religion history lately lol.

And in short, Samael might be the name for Satan or Lucifer before he fell depending on where you ask. I believe the Catholic church would probably consider them all the same but also Azazel and even Beelzebub.

 

[Derachi]

How often do game release dates get bumped forward?

 

[Decoyman]

How often do game release dates get bumped forward?

Actually happened to Smash Bros. Wii U here in Europe.

Good move on Sega though, they clearly don't want to make the same mistake they did last year of releasing a major title for them in the same week as another game that will dominate the online discourse.