StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

[Dekuman]

In regards to Nvidia mobile GPUs (Orion), it could just be paired with an AMD CPU. But it's only a matter of time for ARM CPUs and Nvidia GPUs in a Switch like form factor for PC games

Yeah the way i see it x86 in a Switch like form factor is just too power hungry, it's essentially just a Laptop with a small screen and lots of things cut out, ARM based SoC will always have the power consumption advantage in a Switch-like form factor.

 

[ShadowFox08]

Yeah the way i see it x86 in a Switch like form factor is just too power hungry, it's essentially just a Laptop with a small screen and lots of things cut out, ARM based SoC will always have the power consumption advantage in a Switch-like form factor.

AMD CPUs are already being used for Steam Deck and Aya Neo Next. 4 core CPUs up to 3.5 GHz, iirc

 

[Dekuman]

AMD CPUs are already being used for Steam Deck and Aya Neo Next. 4 core CPUs up to 3.5 GHz, iirc

i'm well aware of that, still more power hungry than an ARM based SoC. We just have no frame of reference of what an updated nvidia ARM based SoC would be like because it's going to go into a Switch 2 and nvidia isn't selling varaints of their chip yet to rando Switch clones.

But we do know stuff like GPD Wins had like 3-4 revisions in the time Switch was on the market and some games on the earlier GDP wins don't compare favorably to the Switch ports.

 

[ILikeFeet]

In regards to Nvidia mobile GPUs (Orion), it could just be paired with an AMD CPU. But it's only a matter of time for ARM CPUs and Nvidia GPUs in a Switch like form factor for PC games

that's two different dies however. the collaboration with Mediatek is just an ARM SoC and a separate Nvidia gpu. fitting that on a motherboard in a tablet would be pushing the limits on what you can do with space

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I think z0mbie suggested Nintendo knew about it well ahead of announcement and Doctre81 at the old place who sleuths LinkedIn profiles found an engineer working the Switch using the X1 before the chip was even announced based on the timelines presented in his experience. I can't find the video now, but i think the idea was Nintendo was likely presented the product and sold on it near the end of the cycle and work had began on the Tegra based NX before the Tegra X1 was revealed. So this upends the conventional thinking of Nintendo becoming a customer later.

Edit: found the video here.
he found two LinkedIn profiles that match up for Nintendo working on the Switch using the X1 before the January 2015 reveal of the chip, one from nvidia and another from Nintendo technology development.

Like i said, Nintendo was likely sold on a near finished or probably finished product, so their input would be minimal, but it could be argued it was designed with them as a customer if nvidia pitched it to them as early as 2013-2014.

I know, I was only adding that the customization they did was very minimal. Nintendo taking a part off the shelf was unheard of in the console space, it’s always been custom or semi-custom with a lot more changes done to it from any console manufacture and it wasn’t something minimal either. What Nintendo had was a pretty “minor” change since they only had cores disabled.

Even with respect to semi-custom those tend to pertain to the very nitty gritty like the architecture of the parts they are using, the semi-custom has been about taking existing parts and making them work together. Like the XB1 and PS4 CPUs being 2 4Core clusters as AMD didn’t actually have a 8Core Jaguar based CPU. The CPU itself in these consoles didn’t really alter much of the way jaguars functions though.


If you catch my drift.

 

[Alovon11]

that's two different dies however. the collaboration with Mediatek is just an ARM SoC and a separate Nvidia gpu. fitting that on a motherboard in a tablet would be pushing the limits on what you can do with space

Well there is the slight possibility they could do a smaller ARM SoC with a tweaked version of the "RTX 2050" in it

But the only reason they would do that is if they really wanted to not have a version of Big-Orin but with A78Cs instead of AE's for some reason.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

AMD CPUs are already being used for Steam Deck and Aya Neo Next. 4 core CPUs up to 3.5 GHz, iirc

Neo Next doesn’t use a 4 core CPU I think. I believe it is Zen 3 based 8core/16Thread CPU.

Or zen 2 based.

Edit: Zen 3.

 

[Dakhil]

In regards to Nvidia mobile GPUs (Orion), it could just be paired with an AMD CPU.

I imagine that would require AMD and Nvidia to collaborate on designing a x86-64 APU that features AMD's mobile CPU (e.g. Van Gogh's CPU) and Nvidia's mobile GPU (e.g. Orin's GPU), which I don't think is going to happen since Nvidia probably doesn't want AMD to have complete access to Nvidia's mobile GPU IPs since Nvidia and AMD are obviously GPU competitors.

We'll see. Android OS or Linux could also be an option perhaps.

I know Linux's mentioned, but Android's not necessarily a good OS for gaming (Doom 3: BFG Edition and Resident Evil 5 on the Nvidia Shield TV are a couple of examples). Although Android's based on Linux, Android's a completely separate OS from Linux.

Well there is the slight possibility they could do a smaller ARM SoC with a tweaked version of the "RTX 2050" in it

Perhaps a possibility for Chromebook and/or Windows on Arm SoCs.

But assuming Mediatek wants to extend the partnership with Nvidia to smartphones, I could see Mediatek and Nvidia opt for a licencing deal, similar with Samsung and AMD, where Nvidia provides Mediatek the mobile GPU IP(s), and Mediatek does the implementation of Nvidia's mobile GPU IP(s) when designing smartphone SoCs.

 

[brainchild]

AMD CPUs are already being used for Steam Deck and Aya Neo Next. 4 core CPUs up to 3.5 GHz, iirc

And for what is worth, I am perfectly happy to optimize my project for something like the Aya Neo Next. It's an incredible machine. If Nintendo's future hardware has similar specifications (including in the IO department) at minimum, then I will have very few complaints with respect to the hardware.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

NFC is such a common commodity, it ain't going away because you really aren't saving anything. it's practically throwaway now

I'd have also said this about the camera and microphone we lost from 3DS/WiiU to Switch.

 

[Dekuman]

I'd have also said this about the camera and microphone we lost from 3DS/WiiU to Switch.

Yeah but those add gameplay gimmicks and none of their core games uses them or require them.

NFC is cheap, keeps forward compatability with Amiibo and keeps door open for other products in the future

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

That is probably due to Nintendo not saving anything and more thinking it wasn’t needed. They had a plan for the type of device Switch was/is and the type of devices that had access to a microphone/webcam

I also don’t think Nintendo is gonna throwaway the IR camera or NFC reader since they like using it in a variety of products. And can continue to use it in the future.

 

[ILikeFeet]

if anything will go, I think it's the IR camera. more games use NFC than the camera

 

[Homura]

if anything will go, I think it's the IR camera. more games use NFC than the camera

Ring Fit Adventure needs it.

 

[Skittzo]

Ring Fit Adventure needs it.

I wouldn't say it needs it, it's used for checking your heart rate which is both entirely optional and extremely unreliable.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

Having a mic is probably what can happen in the next switch.

IR camera and NFC are here to stay though.

 

[ShadowFox08]

if anything will go, I think it's the IR camera. more games use NFC than the camera

Wish we got IR and sensor bar back. 1st and *3rd person shooters have never been the same, including Zelda.

 

[bloopland33]

Having a mic is probably what can happen in the next switch.

IR camera and NFC are here to stay though.

We need the mic to pave the way for Hey You, Pikachu! on NSO

 

[karmitt]

I wouldn't say it needs it, it's used for checking your heart rate which is both entirely optional and extremely unreliable.

extremely unreliable? I've had pretty decent readings with it.

I no longer use it as the Apple Watch is tracking that all passively, but it does the trick. My main issue with it is that it's only checking heart rate 30 seconds after the tail end of the level. My heart rate is often much higher mid level, during fights, etc.

 

[Raccoon]

I'm a tremendous advocate for EPD 4 and via proxy weird sensors, but I unfortunately have to side with @Skittzo on Ring Fit Adventure not really needing it. I'd like it to stick around for the fun stuff, but if costs have to be cut I'd rather that than gyroscopes, kickstand, etc

@LukasManak22 posted a great interview with Takahashi and Koizumi about the motivations of the Switch as a product and how they decided what features to cut and keep. IMO it's an essential read for this thread:

Nintendo talks Switch - origins / creation, going with one screen, name, online play, January event, much more

A little while back, Famitsu published an interview with Nintendo’s Shinya Takahashi and Yoshiaki Koizumi all about Switch in one of its issues. It was extremely extensive, covering the system’s origins and early development (including some involvement from Satoru Iwata). The two developers also...

nintendoeverything.com

 

[Skittzo]

extremely unreliable? I've had pretty decent readings with it.

I no longer use it as the Apple Watch is tracking that all passively, but it does the trick. My main issue with it is that it's only checking heart rate 30 seconds after the tail end of the level. My heart rate is often much higher mid level, during fights, etc.

It usually doesn't quite agree with my Fitbit if I can even get it to work properly. It takes like 2-3 tries to get it to actually work, so I wound up not using it at all really.

 

[karmitt]

It usually doesn't quite agree with my Fitbit if I can even get it to work properly. It takes like 2-3 tries to get it to actually work, so I wound up not using it at all really.

It's true the thumb placement could be fickle, but I don't think I've had an issue with it's readings in a while. I still think it's a worthwhile feature to keep on the device if it's not adding much of a cost. There's room for more high quality fitness products on Switch, first party or otherwise.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I'm a tremendous advocate for EPD 4 and via proxy weird sensors, but I unfortunately have to side with @Skittzo on Ring Fit Adventure not really needing it. I'd like it to stick around for the fun stuff, but if costs have to be cut I'd rather that than gyroscopes, kickstand, etc

@LukasManak22 posted a great interview with Takahashi and Koizumi about the motivations of the Switch as a product and how they decided what features to cut and keep. IMO it's an essential read for this thread:

Nintendo talks Switch - origins / creation, going with one screen, name, online play, January event, much more

A little while back, Famitsu published an interview with Nintendo’s Shinya Takahashi and Yoshiaki Koizumi all about Switch in one of its issues. It was extremely extensive, covering the system’s origins and early development (including some involvement from Satoru Iwata). The two developers also...

nintendoeverything.com

It’s not really that cost prohibitive to keep these features, especially for a device that will presumably be more expensive. They can stay and relatuve to everything else, not really cost much.

I’d wager having the NFC, IR camera, adding a Mic, keeping Gyro, keeping the Kickstand, keeping the haptic engine, etc., should not really cost more than 40-50 bucks combined at the scale that Nintendo operates.

And this next device would be, er, $400 maybe even $450 USD? I’m still leaning towards the former being more likely, latter is perhaps dependent the on the situation.



But for the Screen, the processor, the motherboard, the RAM, the battery, the cooling, the storage (this isn’t cheap depending on what kind, especially if fast), other sensors that are crucial for this device, the dock, the HDMI cable, the charger, etc.? These should be pulling in most of the cost for this device.

The other stuff is extra features that make up and round out the device in feature set as an electronic.

I really don’t think that removing the IR camera is going to really save anything significant here.

 

[ShadowFox08]

It’s not really that cost prohibitive to keep these features, especially for a device that will presumably be more expensive. They can stay and relatuve to everything else, not really cost much.

I’d wager having the NFC, IR camera, adding a Mic, keeping Gyro, keeping the Kickstand, keeping the haptic engine, etc., should not really cost more than 40-50 bucks combined at the scale that Nintendo operates.

And this next device would be, er, $400 maybe even $450 USD? I’m still leaning towards the former being more likely, latter is perhaps dependent the on the situation.



But for the Screen, the processor, the motherboard, the RAM, the battery, the cooling, the storage (this isn’t cheap depending on what kind, especially if fast), other sensors that are crucial for this device, the dock, the HDMI cable, the charger, etc.? These should be pulling in most of the cost for this device.

The other stuff is extra features that make up and round out the device in feature set as an electronic.

I really don’t think that removing the IR camera is going to really save anything significant here.

I hate to think like this, but $400 is not too farfetched for a base console, with OLED dropping to $300 (I don't see less than a $100 price difference). But I can see $450 for another SKU with more storage offered at launch too.

Question to you and everyone here: Would you buy it for $400 for a 256 GB model or 512 GB sku for $450?

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I hate to think like this, but $400 is not too farfetched for a base console, with OLED dropping to $300 (I don't see less than a $100 price difference). But I can see $450 for another SKU with more storage offered at launch too.

Question to you and everyone here: Would you buy it for $400 for a 256 GB model or 512 GB sku for $450?

Why would I not spend 12.5% more for 100% more storage? That’s an absolute steal.

Especially if it’s reasonably fast storage for a device like this, say UFS 2.1.

I would only worry about a 256-512GB extra storage way later down the line when it becomes an issue, but at the start I can keep it chugging for a reasonably long while.


Realistically, it would be 128GB and 256GB respectively though.




And it’s not that I don’t think 400 is far fetched, I just don’t see it being close to the OLED model and see it priced higher creating some tier system of 200 for the lite, 300 for the OLED post drop and the V2 runs out, and 400 for the new model.

 

[chocolate_supra]

I hate to think like this, but $400 is not too farfetched for a base console, with OLED dropping to $300 (I don't see less than a $100 price difference). But I can see $450 for another SKU with more storage offered at launch too.

Question to you and everyone here: Would you buy it for $400 for a 256 GB model or 512 GB sku for $450?

I tend to buy physical whenever I can so I'd probably save a little and go with the 256GB. I'd be happy if they have us options like that, like they did with the WiiU.

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

I think Nintendo is done with offering the same sku but with higher storage. It didn’t really work for the WiiU and caused quite a few problems. We saw the same with Vita and to a degree the Deck.

Nintendo will most likely offer one sku with storage somewhere in the range of 128-256GB. They may increase the storage by incrementally when they release new revisions. I also think 400$ is pushin it and that the new model may sit between 350-400$. With the OLED coming down in price and no other price cuts.

As to the question I think it is self explanatory. 450$ for 512GB when that typically runs a lot more elsewhere.

 

[NineTailSage]

Why would I not spend 12.5% more for 100% more storage? That’s an absolute steal.

Especially if it’s reasonably fast storage for a device like this, say UFS 2.1.

I would only worry about a 256-512GB extra storage way later down the line when it becomes an issue, but at the start I can keep it chugging for a reasonably long while.


Realistically, it would be 128GB and 256GB respectively though.




And it’s not that I don’t think 400 is far fetched, I just don’t see it being close to the OLED model and see it priced higher creating some tier system of 200 for the lite, 300 for the OLED post drop and the V2 runs out, and 400 for the new model.

I do think we might be going extremely conservative on what's available to Nintendo in 2022 and beyond.
Just for comparison sake the Oneplus 7Pro BoM listed 128GB of UFS 3.0 storage for $20, if we presume that the next Switch will most likely be $400 then that definitely gives them more breathing room to make allotments for such storage and increased RAM.

Here's the Galaxy s10+ as well for reference, which were both 2019 phones

 

[NineTailSage]

I think Nintendo is done with offering the same sku but with higher storage. It didn’t really work for the WiiU and caused quite a few problems. We saw the same with Vita and to a degree the Deck.

Nintendo will most likely offer one sku with storage somewhere in the range of 128-256GB. They may increase the storage by incrementally when they release new revisions. I also think 400$ is pushin it and that the new model may sit between 350-400$. With the OLED coming down in price and no other price cuts.

As to the question I think it is self explanatory. 450$ for 512GB when that typically runs a lot more elsewhere.

This isn't accurate the WiiU deluxe 32GB model was the better selling system between the two, which still has little bearing on the fact the system was just not great hardware for its time. Again precieved value is what will propel a device and drive demand through the roof, so a $400 hybrid device that has specified performance in comparison with other mobile devices will only justify the higher price in the face of $500 home consoles from both Sony and Microsoft.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

The Wii U was riddled with cons, but I will say it was certainly an interesting piece of hardware when you look at the nitty gritty.

 

[Terrell]

I do think we might be going extremely conservative on what's available to Nintendo in 2022 and beyond.
Just for comparison sake the Oneplus 7Pro BoM listed 128GB of UFS 3.0 storage for $20, if we presume that the next Switch will most likely be $400 then that definitely gives them more breathing room to make allotments for such storage and increased RAM.

Here's the Galaxy s10+ as well for reference, which were both 2019 phones

These BoM breakdowns are great. Shows the 3 largest expenses are screen, SoC and RAM.
So on the one you provided, you can toss out all the parts starting with “IMX” and “S5K”, those are camera components. QPM2622 is a cellular antenna.
The AMOLED screen is likely doing a resolution Nintendo won’t need, which makes the price per inch comparison too high, so it should be the same or cheaper at 720p, even if it is bigger. Also, any punch-outs on the screen for cameras increase the price, so gotta factor that in, as well. I’m sure there’s more to pick apart, but I think the point is made.
I stand by my statement that a $350 MSRP for Dane is more than achievable.

 

[fwd-bwd]

I think Nintendo is done with offering the same sku but with higher storage. It didn’t really work for the WiiU and caused quite a few problems. We saw the same with Vita and to a degree the Deck.

I agreed with @NineTailSage that WiiU got a multitude of problems and the storage tiers probably wasn't one of them. The tiered pricing seems to work out very well for the Steam Deck actually. The lowest tier (64GB, $399) provides the psychological "anchoring" effect to project value (countless articles emphasized gleefully that it's "only" $100 more than the Switch) and upsell the higher tiers (which are what Steam really aims to sell all along). According to the unofficial preorder data, they managed to nudge more people toward the pricier models with this one weird trick very successfully:

• 512GB model, $649: 71,600 units (55,000 from North America)
• 256GB model, $529: 33,000 units (28,000 from North America)
• 64GB model, $399: total unknown (10,000 from North America)

Nintendo may employ the same strategy for the Dane Switch, effectively increasing the basket size with lowered resistance. This was probably also the reason that the $300 Switch is still around—to anchor the value of OLED Model, and the (non-enthusiast) consumers have been responding positively. They will remain in the market for as long as Nintendo wants them to—without any price drop—perhaps until the Dane model is introduced.

 

[Dekuman]

I'm a tremendous advocate for EPD 4 and via proxy weird sensors, but I unfortunately have to side with @Skittzo on Ring Fit Adventure not really needing it. I'd like it to stick around for the fun stuff, but if costs have to be cut I'd rather that than gyroscopes, kickstand, etc

@LukasManak22 posted a great interview with Takahashi and Koizumi about the motivations of the Switch as a product and how they decided what features to cut and keep. IMO it's an essential read for this thread:

Nintendo talks Switch - origins / creation, going with one screen, name, online play, January event, much more

A little while back, Famitsu published an interview with Nintendo’s Shinya Takahashi and Yoshiaki Koizumi all about Switch in one of its issues. It was extremely extensive, covering the system’s origins and early development (including some involvement from Satoru Iwata). The two developers also...

nintendoeverything.com

Thanks for this, the interview was done right at launch so not a lot of retrospective retconning. Some key comments stuck out. I think again the assumption that Nintendo doesn't care about 3rd parties or is stuck in the past isn't supported by Koizumi and Takahashi's comments.


Un-Nintendo team

Q: And that’s when Mr. Koizumi joined.

Koizumi: I was on the Tokyo production team at the time, but one day they suddenly told me I was to come to Kyoto. There, the late president Iwata told me to “create a tag team with Kawamoto” (Kouichi Kawamoto, the Nintendo Switch’s general director). I still clearly remember what he said back then, “I’ve chosen the most un-Nintendo-like people”. (laughs)

Q: What?! (laughs) What did that mean?

Takahashi: Both Koizumi and I were originally oriented around the visual aspect of games. During the time of the Nintendo 64, about twenty years ago, the two of us would talk about various different things. He was making Super Mario 64, and I was making Wave Race 64 while working on the system’s launch. Koizumi left for Tokyo afterwards, but we’ve always kept in touch since then, so I know him well. That’s why I thought he would be the best man to lead this new venture. Because, even though he has been involved in the Super Mario series for quite some time now, his ideas for Mario have always been kind of crazy. (laughs)

Balancing Specs for TV/Portable play

Past Nintendo hardware did not go for specs alone, but placed an importance on balancing it along with new gameplay methods. Have you taken into account the performance of competing companies’ gaming hardware and PCs this time?

Takahashi: Our main focus was with the implementation of the Switch’s core concept: how it would switch from playing in TV Mode, to Tabletop Mode, to Handheld Mode. It had to be graphically capable enough in TV Mode, but it had to be capable of playing in handheld mode for long enough as well. We made it an important goal of ours to find a good balance between those two aspects, so I think our team had a much different mindset than that of other companies.

On third parties

Q: I think the biggest selling point of Nintendo’s hardware is the ability to play Nintendo games on it. There seemed some periods of the Wii U’s life where you weren’t able to meet player’s expectations due to title shortages. Can you tell us about your current software strategy beyond what you just explained?

Koizumi: Our strategy regarding what tiles to release and when are based not just on our own internal software, but third-party titles as well. So we’re taking what, when, and how we market software into account as a whole, with our own software, other companies’ software, and indie software all flowing along a single line.

Q: I see, so the output of your own company and other companies share equal weight in your decision-making.

Koizumi: Yes. I think our customers will enjoy Nintendo’s own games, but they also have various preferences outside of just those. Essentially, this console is one that players can shape to their own tastes. So we plan on continuously releasing new titles that meet those tastes, whether they be from Nintendo or another company. We’re hard at work making the kind of games we’re known for, of course, but we’re also keeping in constant contact with the public relation divisions of other companies about our own software strategy.

 

[Deleted member 1324]

The Wii U was riddled with cons, but I will say it was certainly an interesting piece of hardware when you look at the nitty gritty.

Sounds ridiculous considering the success of Switch but I do wonder looking at the financial slide for their next system "20XX" if they just sit on the OLED until late 2024 (ride the chip shortage out) then offer a new sort of device entirely.

Nintendo likes to surprise and delight after all and do what no one expects lol... Is a more powerful Switch really interesting to them? Also didn't Miyamoto say something about a new controller a couple of years ago?

I found it -

"Miyamoto:

Nintendo was the first to create the style of playing video games with a plus-shaped directional pad and additional buttons, which has now become the industry standard. It was also Nintendo that changed the original plus-shaped directional pad, which operated digitally in eight directions, into the first analog input device that moves freely in all directions for Nintendo 64. This, too, is now common. We are proud to have created a variety of user interfaces that have now become industry standards.

And, as of now, in terms of accuracy and reliability, I believe this style is the clear winner.

At the same time, I also believe that we should quickly graduate from the current controller, and we are attempting all kinds of things. Our objective is to achieve an interface that surpasses the current controller, where what the player does is directly reflected on the screen, and the user can clearly feel the result. This has not been achieved yet. We have tried all kinds of motion controllers, but none seem to work for all people. As the company that knows the most about controllers, we have been striving to create a controller that can be used with ease, and that will become the standard for the next generation."

Maybe a return to a console with a much better Wii mote?

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I do think we might be going extremely conservative on what's available to Nintendo in 2022 and beyond.
Just for comparison sake the Oneplus 7Pro BoM listed 128GB of UFS 3.0 storage for $20, if we presume that the next Switch will most likely be $400 then that definitely gives them more breathing room to make allotments for such storage and increased RAM.

Here's the Galaxy s10+ as well for reference, which were both 2019 phones

That’s for UFS 3.0 though, 256GB of 3.0 will be more expensive than 256GB of 2.1 for example.

Sounds ridiculous considering the success of Switch but I do wonder looking at the financial slide for their next system "20XX" if they just sit on the OLED until late 2024 (ride the chip shortage out) then offer a new sort of device entirely.

I meant it more in the silicon and how their thought process/philosophy surrounding it was basically about fixing the Wii’s issues, they had a more modern GPU, had this extra cache and memory besides the system RAM and it was meant for both the GPU and CPU to access that made the process more efficient and it wasn’t a cheap memory either really. And the Wii was basically virtual (GCN too by extension).

Of course the Wii U itself wasn’t a great hardware in comparison to the PS4 and XB1 for devs to work with, but it was an interesting piece of hardware.

And when you think about it, they really addressed the issues with the Wii in many ways. Though it felt short.

It’s not last Nintendo to address faults in their hardware with the next piece of hardware. GCN was a reaction to the N64, N64 was a reaction from the SNES, Wii U was a reaction from the Wii. N3DS was a reaction to the 3DS.

Switch may just be the exception or it could be the norm as the dev tools for it were much better it seems for devs to work with even if not dramatically stronger than the Wii U. It’s much easier.

Not only do they react with hardware but they were willing to react with software as well with the case of the switch.


That isn’t to say the device wouldn’t have its shortcomings as a console is accepted to make due with what it can as a fixed platform, but I think the time has to be considered here. The time now makes the bottlenecks more manageable due to many advancements especially in software side. Not easy, just more manageable but not quite impossible. Or not the same degree of impossibility. I’m not saying it will be the strongest or most modern mind you!



We just have to see. The switch 2, whatever it ends up as will be more of a response to the issues with the Switch which are most notably the CPU and memory.
This pertains to the developer side of things, and what most of us won’t see really off the bat.



Nintendo already addressed one of the complaints with the switch on the consumer side of things with something like an OLED, a much better body, the kickstand. They had that patent for the Joycons which would be the next thing they address consumer side I assume.



Basically this is what I gathered from the hardware, they address two people but not always at the same time. For now, Nintendo seems to have been addressing the consumer more than the developer in a direct manner.

Curious case.

 

[Dakhil]

I do think we might be going extremely conservative on what's available to Nintendo in 2022 and beyond.
Just for comparison sake the Oneplus 7Pro BoM listed 128GB of UFS 3.0 storage for $20, if we presume that the next Switch will most likely be $400 then that definitely gives them more breathing room to make allotments for such storage and increased RAM.

Here's the Galaxy s10+ as well for reference, which were both 2019 phones

I don't know if Nintendo plans on having physical games on the DLSS model* be unplayable unless installed on the internal flash storage, which I believe is the modus operandi on the PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series X. (There's probably a 50% chance Nintendo plans to do so.)

But assuming Nintendo has no plans to do so, I think the sequential speed disparity between the Game Cards, the internal flash storage, and the external storage, for the DLSS model*, would be a much bigger problem than the cost for Nintendo, assuming Nintendo still plans on using Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory (here and here), considering the sequential speed disparity between the Game Cards, the eMMC 5.1, and the microSD cards, on the Nintendo Switch, were relatively small.

 

[NineTailSage]

That’s for UFS 3.0 though, 256GB of 3.0 will be more expensive than 256GB of 2.1 for example.

Yes I definitely understood, but the article highlighting the BoM for the Oneplus 7Pro was from 2019 as well, the very same year the phone was released. We also have to consider unlike a phone whatever Nintendo chooses specs wise will be something they can cost effectively source for the next 4-5 yrs, until their next hardware evolution.

 

[NineTailSage]

I don't know if Nintendo plans on having physical games on the DLSS model* be unplayable unless installed on the internal flash storage, which I believe is the modus operandi on the PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series X. (There's probably a 50% chance Nintendo plans to do so.)

But assuming Nintendo has no plans to do so, I think the sequential speed disparity between the Game Cards, the internal flash storage, and the external storage, for the DLSS model*, would be a much bigger problem than the cost for Nintendo, assuming Nintendo still plans on using Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory (here and here), considering the sequential speed disparity between the Game Cards, the eMMC 5.1, and the microSD cards, on the Nintendo Switch, were relatively small.

I guess my question is are we absolutely sure that Nintendo hasn't already started using a form of Macronix 48-layer 3D NAND?
Since the OLED does come with 64GB of internal storage and it seems their previous cap was 32GB(has anyone done a full teardown looking at all of the components yet)?

Then again has any of the internal storage in the Switch ever been supplied by anyone besides Toshiba and Samsung?

 

[Dakhil]

I guess my question is are we absolutely sure that Nintendo hasn't already started using a form of Macronix 48-layer 3D NAND?
Since the OLED does come with 64GB of internal storage and it seems their previous cap was 32GB(has anyone done a full teardown looking at all of the components yet)?

Then again has any of the internal storage in the Switch ever been supplied by anyone besides Toshiba and Samsung?

Macronix never provided eMMC 5.1 for any product in the Nintendo Switch family.

Samsung's the predominant provider of eMMC 5.1 for almost all of the products in the Nintendo Switch. The only products in the Nintendo Switch family where Samsung wasn't the only provider of eMMC 5.1 was Toshiba (now Kioxia) with the Nintendo Switch (2017) and SK Hynix with the Nintendo Switch (2019).

I believe the Nintendo Switch Game Cards are the only high density memory Macronix provides to Nintendo. And the Nintendo Switch Game Cards are likely based on ASIC XtraROM, not 3D NAND memory. And I don't believe 64 GB Nintendo Switch Game Cards exist currently.

 

[NineTailSage]

Macronix never provided eMMC 5.1 for any product in the Nintendo Switch family.

Samsung's the predominant provider of eMMC 5.1 for almost all of the products in the Nintendo Switch. The only products in the Nintendo Switch family where Samsung wasn't the only provider of eMMC 5.1 was Toshiba (now Kioxia) with the Nintendo Switch (2017) and SK Hynix with the Nintendo Switch (2019).

I believe the Nintendo Switch Game Cards are the only high density memory Macronix provides to Nintendo. And the Nintendo Switch Game Cards are likely based on ASIC XtraROM, not 3D NAND memory. And I don't believe 64 GB Nintendo Switch Game Cards exist currently.

Yeah I remember them providing the Gamecard memory for Nintendo but I hope that they are seriously looking for an alternative that is a much faster option. I remember looking this up in the past and their hybrid flash sounds like it could very well be their current gamecard solution or the NAND xtraROM(This device is pin compatible to NAND, but much more robust than NAND. It is popularly used as a cartridge for learning platforms).

Edit: This teardown and die shot definitely shows a more detailed view of a Switch Gamecards internal workings.

 

[Dakhil]

Yeah I remember them providing the Gamecard memory for Nintendo but I hope that they are seriously looking for an alternative that is a much faster option.

Assuming Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory's comparable to Samsung's 48-layer 3D NAND memory (Samsung PM953), then Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory should theoretically have comparable sequential speeds to UFS 2.1 or UFS 2.2.

But of course, nobody knows if Nintendo's still planning on using Macronix's 48-layer 3D NAND memory or not.

 

[NineTailSage]

Another interesting find on Macronix's site about their Octabus memory.

"The data transfer rate has therefore been increased from existing 100MB/s of Quad I/O Serial NOR Flash to 500MB/s, while the read latency has also been lowered immensely."
This comment about the new technology from them kind of confirms what Thraktor has mentioned of Switch gamecards having a (DTR) of 25MB/s

 

[Dakhil]

Another interesting find on Macronix's site about their Octabus memory.

"The data transfer rate has therefore been increased from existing 100MB/s of Quad I/O Serial NOR Flash to 500MB/s, while the read latency has also been lowered immensely."
This comment about the new technology from them kind of confirms what Thraktor has mentioned of Switch gamecards having a (DTR) of 25MB/s

Very interesting findings about Macronix's Octabus Memory. However, Macronix's Octabus Memory probably isn't a viable choice due to the low density (maximum of 2 Gb, or 250 MB).

 

[Terrell]

Every time we talk about Macronix, I get a little bit agitated. The entire physical content delivery method for Switch (and likely Dane) is tangled up in a single supplier and what they're capable of. And it sucks. The only saving grace here is if Nintendo is the one who engineered the card reader and pin connections (which, judging by the 3DS cartridge teardown I just saw, seems to be the case, but who the hell knows) and can therefore potentially increase read speeds up to what they need to be within the XtraROM's theoretical maximum.
But again, Nintendo needs to find another solution, like engineering a high-capacity OTPROM with someone else.

 

[NineTailSage]

Very interesting findings about Macronix's Octabus Memory. However, Macronix's Octabus Memory probably isn't a viable choice due to the low density (maximum of 2 Gb, or 250 MB).

This could just be the way they breakdown memory density on the production side, because searching their website I haven't found anything over 8Gb and we know they are at least making 32GB carts for Nintendo.

 

[Dakhil]

This could just be the way they breakdown memory density on the production side, because searching their website I haven't found anything over 8Gb and we know they are at least making 32GB carts for Nintendo.

Macronix actually mentions that Gaming Machine XtraROM can have a density up to 32 Gb.

 

[NineTailSage]

Macronix actually mentions that Gaming Machine XtraROM can have a density up to 32 Gb.

Yeah I took that statement to mean slot machines. Which would still only end up being 4GB density

• Gaming Machine XtraROM®
• This device, while maintaining the same checksum of the content during lifetime of gaming machines, is widely used in Pachinko and PachinSlot for video/audio, and code storage. It features 32 I/O for fast speed, 70-SSOP package, and up to 32Gb in density.

 

[Terrell]

You'll notice they don't mention capacities/densities for the ASIC XtraROM variety, which Macronix says is used in "handheld gaming consoles". They don't list capacities because they are custom designed. This is likely the variation of XtraROM Nintendo is using.

 

[Dakhil]

Apparently, the Nintendo Gigaleak has uncovered some interesting information about the Nintendo Switch Game Cards. (Note: The capacity for the ROMs are in Gb, not GB, for the Nintendo Switch Game Cards.)

 

[NineTailSage]

Apparently, the Nintendo Gigaleak has uncovered some interesting information about the Nintendo Switch Game Cards. (Note: The capacity for the ROMs are in Gb, not GB, for the Nintendo Switch Game Cards.)

Seriously the gift that keeps on giving...