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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

I've noticed similar ghosting in the Metroid Prime 4 trailer as well - around 1:38 when the birds are flying by.
I just looked at the trailer upload, rather than the stream and yeah, it looks like there is something around the bird head. Upon rewatch I also see some particle fizzle around the little fires in the sequence opening. If there is temporal upscaling here, it's subtle, and low on artifacts, which is great.

OP @Dakhil has asked us to keep things on topic. I'll say that I, personally, didn't love how Prime 4 looked - I've not played any Prime game but Remastered so I can't say to what degree this visual design is an extension of those games - but from a technological level it's clearly a polished product in the vein of Remastered. I will just gently remind folk that if they looked at the stream, they didn't see the footage at its best, and for me at least, that looked really rough. But that's just compression artifacts.'

Model complexity is exactly in-line with Prime Remastered, and while pixel counting a YouTube video is a fool's errand, it looks like the same 900p+MSAA that Remastered used. Big open areas, but I didn't see crepuscular lighting or volumetrics. The little fires in the opening display very similar emissive properties to the same effects in the frigate in the Remastered opening.

I see one real instance of pop-in - the final baddie posing as Big Bad comes in looks like a failed animation tween, but it's a very delayed load of a higher quality model. It looks real bad. And the explosion right before looks like it runs at half frame rate? But all the other particles seem to be 60fps. It all looks really well polished.

In terms of new stuff, there are some subtle lens flares that I don't remember from Remastered. And the areas are obviously larger, but distant objects don't look like real geometry to me, and lights are mostly static, in keeping with Remastered's forward renderer.

Prime 4 does not appear to be a technological leap over Remastered in any major way (unless those hints of temporal upscaling are real), which is no bad thing, because Remastered was an absolute consummate game for the hardware it was developed for. This is peak Switch 1 technology, exactly what you would expect from a game that was designed for Switch from the first day to the last day.

Which is not to say it won't launch in the cross-gen period, or that there won't be enhancements on Switch 2. But this isn't "RTGI replaced with something else" this isn't "4k struggle bussed down to smeary 720p" and this definitely isn't "high poly models replaced with low poly models." It's Switch 1 tech through and through.
 
I just looked at the trailer upload, rather than the stream and yeah, it looks like there is something around the bird head. Upon rewatch I also see some particle fizzle around the little fires in the sequence opening. If there is temporal upscaling here, it's subtle, and low on artifacts, which is great.

OP @Dakhil has asked us to keep things on topic. I'll say that I, personally, didn't love how Prime 4 looked - I've not played any Prime game but Remastered so I can't say to what degree this visual design is an extension of those games - but from a technological level it's clearly a polished product in the vein of Remastered. I will just gently remind folk that if they looked at the stream, they didn't see the footage at its best, and for me at least, that looked really rough. But that's just compression artifacts.'

Model complexity is exactly in-line with Prime Remastered, and while pixel counting a YouTube video is a fool's errand, it looks like the same 900p+MSAA that Remastered used. Big open areas, but I didn't see crepuscular lighting or volumetrics. The little fires in the opening display very similar emissive properties to the same effects in the frigate in the Remastered opening.

I see one real instance of pop-in - the final baddie posing as Big Bad comes in looks like a failed animation tween, but it's a very delayed load of a higher quality model. It looks real bad. And the explosion right before looks like it runs at half frame rate? But all the other particles seem to be 60fps. It all looks really well polished.

In terms of new stuff, there are some subtle lens flares that I don't remember from Remastered. And the areas are obviously larger, but distant objects don't look like real geometry to me, and lights are mostly static, in keeping with Remastered's forward renderer.

Prime 4 does not appear to be a technological leap over Remastered in any major way (unless those hints of temporal upscaling are real), which is no bad thing, because Remastered was an absolute consummate game for the hardware it was developed for. This is peak Switch 1 technology, exactly what you would expect from a game that was designed for Switch from the first day to the last day.

Which is not to say it won't launch in the cross-gen period, or that there won't be enhancements on Switch 2. But this isn't "RTGI replaced with something else" this isn't "4k struggle bussed down to smeary 720p" and this definitely isn't "high poly models replaced with low poly models." It's Switch 1 tech through and through.

Interesting!! so that throws out the window any notion that, at some point, it was moved to be developed for the Switch 2. MP4 has just...taken a really, really, long time.
 
Interesting!! so that throws out the window any notion that, at some point, it was moved to be developed for the Switch 2. MP4 has just...taken a really, really, long time.

Yeah, and it doesn't look like it was held back for the Switch 2 at all either, it will probably launch well after the Switch 2 launches too.

... It just looks like development went really badly.
 
"Is it me or does [insert game from recent direct] look way too good to be on switch?"

my favorite meme
Well, hardly anyone put in the effort to
Make a Switch exclusive this good asides from Atlus and capcom. I mean alot of us here knows better.
 
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Yeah, and it doesn't look like it was held back for the Switch 2 at all either, it will probably launch well after the Switch 2 launches too.

... It just looks like development went really badly.
Probably got stuck on the pre-production part, wanted to see what new way we can play, and they decided to play it safe, maybe.
 
Interesting!! so that throws out the window any notion that, at some point, it was moved to be developed for the Switch 2. MP4 has just...taken a really, really, long time.
I understand why folks might speculate that direction. I don't want to derail the conversation out of the technology topic after Dakhil's stern reminder the other day, but in terms of development time, fan understanding of "how long a game should take" is dictated by "how long games usually take." And games usually have release dates set years in advance, followed up by major crunch.

Mario Wonder was developed with no set schedule, because Nintendo has the money and the pace of games, that they needed need to put the team in crunch or push the schedule. Considering that Nintendo thought Prime was worth completely rebooting, and that they obviously didn't want a bunch of backlash to the game after the reboot, I think they just took their time.

From what I'm seeing there was clearly no technological rethink, certainly.
 
From what I'm seeing there was clearly no technological rethink, certainly
I mean what else they could have done. If Ray tracing is hard or Impossible to do at 60 FPS? Then what's more they could have done on the Switch 2? It seems like it would just be a resolution and framerate increase.
 
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Yeah, it feels like a reverse Paper Mario situation which is funny to me considering it's Tanabe leading both of those project.
Idk, to me it sounds Ike Tanabe is straight by the books kinda guy. Like he has no creative input and he just follows instructions. Not to say that is always a bad thing.
 
I do think both Zelda and Metroid in this direct have their rough points (I still think they look beautiful), but man. I wasn't expecting to hear 'low budget spinoff' and "recycled funko pops" in relation to Metroid Prime 4 and a new 2D Zelda today.


The Steam Deck's 'hugeness' is compounded by its width and its thickness. It's about 1.5 times the thickness of the current Switch (the tablet portion), and it's very wide to accommodate the touchpads. It's also heavier. This has a particularly big effect on comfort and portability.

I've heard the same kind of concern when the original Switch was revealed but it didn't pan out that way. Kids play with iPads and those lack actual controls to grip onto unlike the Switch.

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *
The steam deck is so huge and has a weird layout, so it baffles me when people say it's comfortable.
I have trouble finding a way to hold it comfortably for long time periods. Not saying the Switch is any better but the deck isn't some sort of gold standard either.
I personally find the Wii U gamepad to be the most ergonomic out of these big devices.
 
Idk, to me it sounds Ike Tanabe is straight by the books kinda guy. Like he has no creative input and he just follows instructions. Not to say that is always a bad thing.
I remember watching one of the Kit and Krysta videos talking about Nintendo devs, and according to them Tanabe is more of a silly guy.
Here it is
 
There's other places to discuss software, but on the whole, this very much FELT like a Direct that capped off the year. While there could be more to announce, it couldn't be anything major.

I think this was it, the final Nintendo Switch only Nintendo Direct. But what I'm getting at is a September Direct is pretty common, and I dare say it looks unlikely now.

I think, well, hope, the next major event from Nintendo is the reveal. September is in the third quarter of the calendar year and the usual time for a later in the year Direct.

I don't think it's some huge revelation to say "Reveal between July and end of September" but still. What else could go there at this point.
 
Yeah, it feels like a reverse Paper Mario situation which is funny to me considering it's Tanabe leading both of those project.

I mean, Prime 4 WAS restarted from scratch, so chances are it was a good 12 months of just planning on what the fuck they were going to do. And by the time they were ready to get rolling, Covid hit, and slowed everything down. And then in the meantime, Retro were already probably working hard with remastering Prime 1 for the purposes of refining the engine for Prime 4, and using it as a testbed. Though this is all purely speculation, and not confirmation.

Given the hardware involved, Retro were limited in some respects, but since they were hiring loads of people from other studios who have experience with beefier hardware, it's possible their expertise was useful in getting Prime 1 Remaster looking as well as it did, and using that as a template for Prime 4.

In terms of the hardware, Tegra X1 is still an impressive piece of kit, and the fact it can produce the kinds of results we saw in MPR. We know there is a lot of baked in lighting, though I think the Prime 4 trailer did hoswcase more dynamic assets this time around, though I'd have to carefully watch the trailer frame by frame.

All this makes me curious what Tegra Drake could offer, which I'm fairly certain would be nothing more than a DLSS-upscale transplant. Though I have speculated Retro might be working concurrently on a Switch 2 patch, which would give us potentially DLSS, and just maybe, Ray-Tracing. The latter would be wishful thinking though.

The steam deck is so huge and has a weird layout, so it baffles me when people say it's comfortable.
I have trouble finding a way to hold it comfortably for long time periods. Not saying the Switch is any better but the deck isn't some sort of gold standard either.
I personally find the Wii U gamepad to be the most ergonomic out of these big devices.

Switch is atrocious in terms of ergonomics. Due to the design of the joycons, the right analog stick is way too far down, so you're forced to stretch your thumb out, and bend it just to touch it. And I don't have massive size hands either. So when the Satisfye grip came out, that made my hands more neutral towards the right analog stick.

The same is occurring for the Steam Deck. The ABXY buttons, plus the analog are in a more neutral position relative to your thumbs position when you hold it. It actually means the trackpad is in an unnatural position, but it's why I find the Deck comfortable to hold. Plus, it's extra width means your hands aren't so close together, so your shoulders, elbows, and wrists are in a more neutral position, at least IMO.

I do agree the Wii U Gamepad is one of the more comfortable controllers ever made, and same is true with the Wii U Pro controller. I just want a modern controller where the Analog sticks are on top rather than the asymmetric placement that Xbox popularized. I think it personally sucks.
 
It's so fun to see a AAA game first person game made for Switch, it looks like Halo 4 or something. You really can't see that type of fidelity on that kind of power these days. It's like a time machine.
 
Don't really have a problem with Switch ergonomics most of the time even though I find the Steam Deck more comfortable, though I would really like a joy con where the d-buttons/d-pad is on the top left. I end up just using the analog stick for a lot of 2D games cause the hand positioning is more natural. The third party d-pad joycons place them on the bottom like usual but if I'm already going out of my way to spend money on a d-pad controller, then give me a better one for 2D games.

I hope the cottage industry of third party joy cons persists and this materializes eventually.
 
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The size is close to Rog Ally than Steam deck:

asus-rog-ally-hands-on-11.jpg

And more than 80% of Nintendo Switch players are not small children:
Screen_20Shot_202017-10-31_20at_2015_08_06.png

Besides children can play fine on a Rog Ally's size machine.
anyone-elses-ally-get-taken-over-by-kids-lol-v0-IrBFJp0xkisqEV2PW-aH2rh6fDUCIW7FWpW9XXjGKsA.jpg

And a bigger screen is better to play on Tabletop mode, specially on multiplayer:
FHJnK-7XwAgzr3w

So, children will not have trouble. They will love it in the end. Us too, of course.
It will be bigger than an Ally based of the rumours of bigger joycons and bigger 8inch screen. The Ally has a 7inch screen with barely any bezel on left and right side. The fact that it's 8inch and larger joycons means it will be wider no doubt.

And I guess you are right kids can play it table top mode so it's not the end of the world. I do think it's a bit too bulky for kids to hold in handheld mode.
 
The energy balls you shoot in MP4 don't have a light source that casts on the environment... much like MP1 remaster... It's clear this is a switch 1 game.
For a switch 2 version I would expect at least that effect
 
Yeah, and it doesn't look like it was held back for the Switch 2 at all either, it will probably launch well after the Switch 2 launches too.

... It just looks like development went really badly.
I'm anticipating it to be a lot bigger than the other 3 games, I think that could really add to the development time...
 
I definitely think MP4 looks like a mixed bag. Some spots I think look genuinely impressive:

GFRNgRu.jpeg


pi4AOBt.jpeg


At least to my eyes, these both look like pretty noticeable leaps from the Remaster. Texture quality and lighting seems to be sigfnificantly improved.

On the other hand, you have this...

_4277863b.jpg


...which is, not so much.

Maybe they'll polish it up nicely by the end.
 
The rumours are that Metroid Prime 2 & 3 are not going to be fully remastered like 1 was, rather they are straight up ports. If true, then it could make sense that they are being held back for Switch 2 so they could benefit from DLSS. But would Switch 2 patches for GameCube and Wii ports make much difference to performance or image quality?
 
It's so fun to see a AAA game first person game made for Switch, it looks like Halo 4 or something. You really can't see that type of fidelity on that kind of power these days. It's like a time machine.
4? It looks like Infinite had some aliasing sprinkled on top - that is to say, looking pretty ruddy incredible, especially for the hardware!
 
I definitely think MP4 looks like a mixed bag.
All three of these shots just look like Remastered to me. Neither an improvement nor a drop. Obviously not every area has the same level of art direction, but those "impressive" shots aren't looking more detailed than Remastered in the opening area, with the queen's corpse on fire, nor does the latter shot look any worse than Generic Shooty Corridor in some areas of that game.

I am not sold on the art direction. Did Samus's ship look like that in Prime 2 or 3? Not to yuck anyone's yum, but I hate that it looks like her helmet. Makes it feel like Samus is a superhero with a logo, in her Samus Plane.

That last shot of the jungle is tight though. I just would like to see Samus in environments other than "green", "red" and "grey"
 
The rumours are that Metroid Prime 2 & 3 are not going to be fully remastered like 1 was, rather they are straight up ports. If true, then it could make sense that they are being held back for Switch 2 so they could benefit from DLSS. But would Switch 2 patches for GameCube and Wii ports make much difference to performance or image quality?
That seems like the opposite of what makes sense, no? If they're just ports with no new assets then they would probably be able to run on the new hardware at 4K natively without DLSS. These are GameCube and Wii games.
 
That seems like the opposite of what makes sense, no? If they're just ports with no new assets then they would probably be able to run on the new hardware at 4K natively without DLSS. These are GameCube and Wii games.
That's what I initially thought, then I had a second thought that maybe it wouldn't improve much other than just upscale to 4K. I guess I was overthinking. I hadn't thought they'd not need DLSS at all!
 
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What about better lighting and ray tracing ?
Ray tracing would essentially be better lighting, but that would almost be a large remaster/small remake for the game. You have to remake the lighting for the whole game when light sources now are more physically correct. The best artwork doesn't help when it is in the shadows most of the time.

Having better textures and a higher render resolution could be changing two little flags in the source code.
 
What about better lighting and ray tracing ?
I personally doubt that it'd skip ray tracing if it gets a switch 2 version as a crossgen thing. Don't think retro studios would decide to just not use a graphical feature like that if they have the opportunity, they like to bleed the hardware dry
 
All three of these shots just look like Remastered to me. Neither an improvement nor a drop. Obviously not every area has the same level of art direction, but those "impressive" shots aren't looking more detailed than Remastered in the opening area, with the queen's corpse on fire, nor does the latter shot look any worse than Generic Shooty Corridor in some areas of that game.

I am not sold on the art direction. Did Samus's ship look like that in Prime 2 or 3? Not to yuck anyone's yum, but I hate that it looks like her helmet. Makes it feel like Samus is a superhero with a logo, in her Samus Plane.

That last shot of the jungle is tight though. I just would like to see Samus in environments other than "green", "red" and "grey"

At least for ship, I was trying to find a good comparison with the Remaster and unfortunately I can't seem to find a good 1:1 shot (Most of the instances I've seen have the ship too far away or at a different angle). I'll see if I can find a proper image, but the textures and shading on the ship in MP4 do seem better to me.

...or I could be misremembering what the Remaster ship looks like, which is very much possible.
 
Ray tracing would essentially be better lighting, but that would almost be a large remaster/small remake for the game. You have to remake the lighting for the whole game when light sources now are more physically correct. The best artwork doesn't help when it is in the shadows most of the time.

Having better textures and a higher render resolution could be changing two little flags in the source code.
Do you need to redo the lighting for ray traced reflections? Or ray traced shadows for that matter? I would inagine if they went with ray traced global illumination then they would need to re-art all the assets but I don't recall games like CoD (ray traced shadows) or the various games using it for reflections having to redo the lighting.

Someone more knowledgeable please inform me though.
 
If Prime 4 is dynamic 900p 60 like Remastered, then it could potentially hit dynamic 2160p without DLSS (via napkin math - (3840x2160) / (1600x900) = 5.76, Switch 2 GPU is 6x Switch 1), or just native 1440p with DLSS Quality to 4K and room for additional visual enhancements. It may not be the visual showcase for Switch 2 since it's still a Switch 1 game at its core, but it can be a visual showcase.
Reminder that the impact of resolution on performance is not linear, it varies from game to game and the hardware being used, overall if there are no bottlenecks present going from 900p to 4k should not reduce performance by 6x, it'll usually be much less
Dirt-Rally-1038x1220.jpg
 
At least for ship, I was trying to find a good comparison with the Remaster and unfortunately I can't seem to find a good 1:1 shot (Most of the instances I've seen have the ship too far away or at a different angle). I'll see if I can find a proper image, but the textures and shading on the ship in MP4 do seem better to me.

...or I could be misremembering what the Remaster ship looks like, which is very much possible.
They're different ships anyways, the one in 4 is the same ship as in 3, which was a very different design from the prime 1 ship, and the metroid 2 / super metroid / prime 2 ship.
 
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All three of these shots just look like Remastered to me. Neither an improvement nor a drop. Obviously not every area has the same level of art direction, but those "impressive" shots aren't looking more detailed than Remastered in the opening area, with the queen's corpse on fire, nor does the latter shot look any worse than Generic Shooty Corridor in some areas of that game.

I am not sold on the art direction. Did Samus's ship look like that in Prime 2 or 3? Not to yuck anyone's yum, but I hate that it looks like her helmet. Makes it feel like Samus is a superhero with a logo, in her Samus Plane.

That last shot of the jungle is tight though. I just would like to see Samus in environments other than "green", "red" and "grey"
The ship is using 3's ship design
 
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4? It looks like Infinite had some aliasing sprinkled on top - that is to say, looking pretty ruddy incredible, especially for the hardware!
Halo 4 is my favorite look for Halo, and one of the most technically impressive 360 games with an incredible art style. So I do mean it as a compliment.
 
Do you need to redo the lighting for ray traced reflections? Or ray traced shadows for that matter? I would inagine if they went with ray traced global illumination then they would need to re-art all the assets but I don't recall games like CoD (ray traced shadows) or the various games using it for reflections having to redo the lighting.

Someone more knowledgeable please inform me though.
I'm not suuuuper well versed in this stuff, but to my understanding MPR/4's art relies heavily on baked lighting. This is where all the light bounces are pre-calculated and converted to textures. This means that it'd require a major overhaul to add real-time lighting to these games and implement RT. On the other hand games like BotW or Pokemon S/V or CoD rely on real-time lighting techniques using light probes. Since it's real-time, swapping to RT from a rasterized solution is a far simpler task. Someone else can probably explain is far better but that's the jist of it to my knowledge
 
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MP4 is a 60fps game with as many effects as you can cram into that frame time and at 900p.

You either go 30fps, sub-720p, or you make the game for Switch 2. But trying to extract more with these settings was never going to happen. For that reason, I can't say this game looks bad or even mixed. These are just the limits of the switch
 
Ray tracing would essentially be better lighting, but that would almost be a large remaster/small remake for the game. You have to remake the lighting for the whole game when light sources now are more physically correct. The best artwork doesn't help when it is in the shadows most of the time.

Having better textures and a higher render resolution could be changing two little flags in the source code.

But Id went back and added raytracing to Doom Eternal.
 
MP4 is a 60fps game with as many effects as you can cram into that frame time and at 900p.

You either go 30fps, sub-720p, or you make the game for Switch 2. But trying to extract more with these settings was never going to happen. For that reason, I can't say this game looks bad or even mixed. These are just the limits of the switch
I thought it looked great….🤷🏻‍♂️

What’s crazy is how it’ll look and run on Switch 2 if this is the baseline.
 
MP4 is a 60fps game with as many effects as you can cram into that frame time and at 900p.

You either go 30fps, sub-720p, or you make the game for Switch 2. But trying to extract more with these settings was never going to happen. For that reason, I can't say this game looks bad or even mixed. These are just the limits of the switch
Would an overclocked version help with any of this?
 
The rumours are that Metroid Prime 2 & 3 are not going to be fully remastered like 1 was, rather they are straight up ports. If true, then it could make sense that they are being held back for Switch 2 so they could benefit from DLSS. But would Switch 2 patches for GameCube and Wii ports make much difference to performance or image quality?
That seems like the opposite of what makes sense, no? If they're just ports with no new assets then they would probably be able to run on the new hardware at 4K natively without DLSS. These are GameCube and Wii games.
I just wanna jump in, because I don't think "just straight ports" actually reflects what intel there is. There are basically two sources of info about what's going on with 2+3, the big Belmont dump years ago, and Grubb. From Belmont, in September of 2021

Before Retro got Prime 4 back they'd been planning for them to redo the whole trilogy. Obviously that was not going to be possible with them now doing Prime 4. So the new plan became for them to just finish up the first game, then Nintendo would contract out the work for the subsequent games to be redone by other studios with the Prime 1 remake serving to establish the visual bar and style for other studios to emulate. I don't know whether this is still the plan or if that work has even begun. I'm sort of doubtful. They've just barely finished up the work on Prime 1 just a few weeks ago.
And then summer last year, Jeff Grubb who had dropped a bunch about Prime Remastered, said this.
Mike Minotti: Nne more question you know you said before that the Metroid Prime 2 remaster is not going to be on the level that that Metroid Prime 1 was is that still what what we're expecting here?

Jeff Grubb: Yes that's still what I'm expecting if that's changed I've not heard about it at all, I I still think it's gonna be it's gonna be mostly what people want right it's gonna have the modern controls and you know it's gonna be HD and things like that but it's not gonna get the love and care that Metroid Prime got, no, almost certainly not. But it does it also doesn't sound like it's going to be necessarily a two pack of like Metroid Prime 2 and 3 get it for sixty dollars, so I bet it's gonna look pretty good overall.

The rumors mostly seem to suggest that it's a cheaper remaster, done outside of Nintendo, not that it is "just" uprezzed assets. Maybe it really is uprezzed assets plus new engine, but considering the visual quality of Prime 1 Remastered, plus the budget price, it's hard to imagine how they would position those games. 20 buck eShop titles maybe?

EDIT: Just realized this is still the tech thread. Sorry, I thought I was in the metroid thread.
 
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