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Discussion Does Nintendo's fan base ever piss you off in terms of their buying habits?

Tentacle-tropes said:
Why exactly focus on “sci-fi shooters with a focus on atmosphere and horror” when the question should be what exactly has Metroid done to shore up its own weaknesses in an attempt to garner more attention from other audiences.

The fact that we are hyper focusing on the genre including really specific modifiers should say it all really.
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You aren't really making a coherent point here. Explain in clear terms what you think will help make the Metroid series more mainstream, because I would bet it means either changing the setting or gameplay genre, which is a far bigger compromise than most Metroid fans are going to want.
 
Not really no.

If anything Nintendo fans buy a lot of cool stuff. But you can’t force them to like Sin & Punishment, Eternal Darkness or DISASTAH Day of Crisis.
 
GamerJM said:
A theory I have though, that I don't know if even Nintendo realizes, is that the Gamecube sold extremely disproportionately well (disproportionate to its own sales) to children who would go on to have a huge love for gaming for the rest of their lives. Which is why you see it brought up so fondly in enthusiast circles like this one despite its relatively low sales.
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Exactly! Thank you for putting how I feel about the Gamecube's impact on my gaming career so simply! I've never been to accurately put how I feel about the system into words.
 
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This doesn't bother me at all. People can like what they want, it's their own time and money they're putting in here. Liking unpopular things is just a part of life. I love TWEWY and NTWEWY and both games are seen as big flops despite their great reception by the fans. Some things are just not going to appeal to mainstream tastes.

When it comes to Nintendo as well, good sales aren't always a sure sign of getting new games from the company. Both the original Kid Icarus and Uprising are million sellers yet the Kid Icarus franchise has little support from Nintendo in terms of continuing it because there isn't a desire from the developers to make it. Meanwhile the last Star Fox game to sell particularly well was Star Fox Adventures almost 20 years ago yet that franchise has gotten 3 sequels and a remake since then.
 
Mekanos said:
You aren't really making a coherent point here. Explain in clear terms what you think will help make the Metroid series more mainstream, because I would bet it means either changing the setting or gameplay genre, which is a far bigger compromise than most Metroid fans are going to want.
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Again it is really telling that fans think this is the only way to achieve higher sales potential instead of just trying to fix Metroid’s weaknesses. I’ve more then made my points clear in the past about how to do that without “stripping” Metroid’s purity. In short these are the areas that Metroid has to do better in:
  • Gameplay specifically catching up to modern fps norms. They have examples from two recent power armored individuals on how to make that interesting as well.
  • Writing- this gets broken down into three parts but overall the series has really failed to improve here
    • Npcs are pretty much nonexistent & if they do are often not great. Raven Beak isn’t really a character I consider compelling other then a Smash move set but there is no one else other than evil variations of Samus
    • Character- speaking of, Samus, she isn’t that interesting of a character. If she were slightly more fleshed out then we wouldn’t be having a debate of a non-verbal interaction can be considered good character writing instead it would supplement it. No this does not mean she would be a chatterbox, & no I am accepting the failure of execution Other M as an example of why we shouldn’t.
    • World building- to me this is the most depressing part. You have a galactic body of government yet no information of it exists outside a manual from the 1st game. The setting feels dead & lifeless with no other entities or interesting notes to speak of. Just Samus, barren worlds, dead civilizations, flora & fauna. Environmental storytelling & scanning are not enough.
  • Miscellaneous stuff like for example voice acting & stuff they added to Dread in patches
None of these should seem controversial, change setting, or even genre/gameplay. However, the fanbase seems highly resistant to such ideas because to put it frankly “reasons.” If they consider these “compromises” then I don’t have much faith in the fanbase.
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
Again it is really telling that fans think this is the only way to achieve higher sales potential instead of just trying to fix Metroid’s weaknesses. I’ve more then made my points clear in the past about how to do that without “stripping” Metroid’s purity. In short these are the areas that Metroid has to do better in:
  • Gameplay specifically catching up to modern fps norms. They have examples from two recent power armored individuals on how to make that interesting as well.
  • Writing- this gets broken down into three parts but overall the series has really failed to improve here
    • Npcs are pretty much nonexistent & if they do are often not great. Raven Beak isn’t really a character I consider compelling other then a Smash move set but there is no one else other than evil variations of Samus
    • Character- speaking of, Samus, she isn’t that interesting of a character. If she were slightly more fleshed out then we wouldn’t be having a debate of a non-verbal interaction can be considered good character writing instead it would supplement it. No this does not mean she would be a chatterbox, & no I am accepting the failure of execution Other M as an example of why we shouldn’t.
    • World building- to me this is the most depressing part. You have a galactic body of government yet no information of it exists outside a manual from the 1st game. The setting feels dead & lifeless with no other entities or interesting notes to speak of. Just Samus, barren worlds, dead civilizations, flora & fauna. Environmental storytelling & scanning are not enough.
  • Miscellaneous stuff like for example voice acting & stuff they added to Dread in patches
None of these should seem controversial, change setting, or even genre/gameplay. However, the fanbase seems highly resistant to such ideas because to put it frankly “reasons.” If they consider these “compromises” then I don’t have much faith in the fanbase.
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This is an interesting post.

I'm going to mostly agree with you, especially about the FPS trappings of Metroid (at least as far as Prime). I know that Nintendo took pains to call it an FPA, but the actual pew-pew isn't great in any of the Prime games, and they struggled to make Samus's 2D movement feel fluid in 3D IMO. I personally have a hard time with Samus's morph ball - I hate the camera pullback that happens, it doesn't "feel good" to me, etc.

Where I don't agree is that the setting and characterization holds Metroid back. Master Chief is a nothing character, but Halo is extremely popular. I like MC, too! Sometimes, you just want a character that is a beast, that you can believe can save the galaxy with dual-wielded SMGs or an upgraded power shot. Samus fits that mold.

I also don't think Halo, as a like example here, has done enough with its setting, which is also interesting (religious fundamentalists try to exterminate the "Other," and Halo barely does anything with that no matter how much lore building it's done). I really do think it's down to the mechanics and that Nintendo still hasn't produced a game with good first-person pew-pew in-house (Goldeneye notwithstanding).

(I do want to agree with you that Metroid doesn't do enough with its world, absolutely! I just don't think it's a factor in why Metroid does the numbers that it does. As for 2D Metroid, that's just a niche subgenre and will never do much more than what Dread did. The breakout potential for Metroid is entirely in 3D, IMO.)
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
100% of Nintendo's fanbase has bought every F-Zero game released in the last 15 years.
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The Wii/Wii U VC sales of F-Zero and F-Zero X (and Maximum Velocity and GP Legend on Wii U) probably weren't great tbh. Especially X on Wii U which came out less than two months before the Switch.
 
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DistractedByPixels said:
This is an interesting post.

I'm going to mostly agree with you, especially about the FPS trappings of Metroid (at least as far as Prime). I know that Nintendo took pains to call it an FPA, but the actual pew-pew isn't great in any of the Prime games, and they struggled to make Samus's 2D movement feel fluid in 3D IMO. I personally have a hard time with Samus's morph ball - I hate the camera pullback that happens, it doesn't "feel good" to me, etc.

Where I don't agree is that the setting and characterization holds Metroid back. Master Chief is a nothing character, but Halo is extremely popular. I like MC, too! Sometimes, you just want a character that is a beast, that you can believe can save the galaxy with dual-wielded SMGs or an upgraded power shot. Samus fits that mold.

I also don't think Halo, as a like example here, has done enough with its setting, which is also interesting (religious fundamentalists try to exterminate the "Other," and Halo barely does anything with that no matter how much lore building it's done). I really do think it's down to the mechanics and that Nintendo still hasn't produced a game with good first-person pew-pew in-house (Goldeneye notwithstanding).

(I do want to agree with you that Metroid doesn't do enough with its world, absolutely! I just don't think it's a factor in why Metroid does the numbers that it does. As for 2D Metroid, that's just a niche subgenre and will never do much more than what Dread did. The breakout potential for Metroid is entirely in 3D, IMO.)
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I’m not really using Master Chief or Halo as a example of what Metroid can learn for characterization or setting. I am saying that Halo & Doom 2016 are examples of power armored people from the gameplay side they can learn from.

I think both definitely contribute because it tells me that brighter are interesting enough to hook people whether initially or through word of mouth.
-Why should people care about an Iron Man colored faceless, voiceless, &, to most people, emotionless suit of armor? I don’t really think being a stoic badass with the vaguest hints of compassion are selling people currently. MC is weird considering they are trying to give him more character but even in earlier outings he still was able to play-off characters like Arbiter, Cortana, & Johnson—even if those deliveries were dry as hell.
-Same with the setting, why should people care about what’s going on in a galaxy seemingly devoid of life & information. There isn’t a reason to be interested in or hooked on the Metroid setting. You can debate whether Halo has done enough with its own setting but they have absolutely got more people interested & involved, more importantly they got people to care & to spread it. Think of things like VaatiVidya’s videos on Souls lore or even the numerous Zelda ones.

These things all help contribute to a game’s word of mouth or anticipation for the next. You cannot have these in your game but it makes selling to more people harder since it relies on the gameplay clicking with everyone like Minecraft—which even then has its own setting people have explored at this point.
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
I’m not really using Master Chief or Halo as a example of what Metroid can learn for characterization or setting. I am saying that Halo & Doom 2016 are examples of power armored people from the gameplay side they can learn from.

I think both definitely contribute because it tells me that brighter are interesting enough to hook people whether initially or through word of mouth.
-Why should people care about an Iron Man colored faceless, voiceless, &, to most people, emotionless suit of armor? I don’t really think being a stoic badass with the vaguest hints of compassion are selling people currently. MC is weird considering they are trying to give him more character but even in earlier outings he still was able to play-off characters like Arbiter, Cortana, & Johnson—even if those deliveries were dry as hell.
-Same with the setting, why should people care about what’s going on in a galaxy seemingly devoid of life & information. There isn’t a reason to be interested in or hooked on the Metroid setting. You can debate whether Halo has done enough with its own setting but they have absolutely got more people interested & involved, more importantly they got people to care & to spread it. Think of things like VaatiVidya’s videos on Souls lore or even the numerous Zelda ones.

These things all help contribute to a game’s word of mouth or anticipation for the next. You cannot have these in your game but it makes selling to more people harder since it relies on the gameplay clicking with everyone like Minecraft—which even then has its own setting people have explored at this point.
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Will only speak personally. I enjoyed Doom 2016 for what it was, BUT, I personally do not want it to play like that. I know it gets a side eye, but I do really see the series as an FPA. It's a first person game, but it really does not play like a shooter at all, and I really love the way Prime plays, especially the third one, as I really do not like how most FPS games play since I am not an FPS person.

As for the story, sure, it is minimalist, but it works. The world setting and stakes and the galaxy are set up. I think Metroid has a unique way of handling their universe and storytelling which I personally like. Especially Prime with the logs.
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
None of these should seem controversial, change setting, or even genre/gameplay. However, the fanbase seems highly resistant to such ideas because to put it frankly “reasons.” If they consider these “compromises” then I don’t have much faith in the fanbase.
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Yeah, that's the dice you roll making fundamental changes to a series with a smaller fanbase to attract a wider audience. See the post above me. I'm not even a diehard Metroid fan resistant to change, if the game is good I'll play it, just speaking candidly about the situation.

I don't think Metroid can stay recognizable in its current form and consistently sell over 5 million. Definitely not the 2D games.
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
I’m not really using Master Chief or Halo as a example of what Metroid can learn for characterization or setting. I am saying that Halo & Doom 2016 are examples of power armored people from the gameplay side they can learn from.

I think both definitely contribute because it tells me that brighter are interesting enough to hook people whether initially or through word of mouth.
-Why should people care about an Iron Man colored faceless, voiceless, &, to most people, emotionless suit of armor? I don’t really think being a stoic badass with the vaguest hints of compassion are selling people currently. MC is weird considering they are trying to give him more character but even in earlier outings he still was able to play-off characters like Arbiter, Cortana, & Johnson—even if those deliveries were dry as hell.
-Same with the setting, why should people care about what’s going on in a galaxy seemingly devoid of life & information. There isn’t a reason to be interested in or hooked on the Metroid setting. You can debate whether Halo has done enough with its own setting but they have absolutely got more people interested & involved, more importantly they got people to care & to spread it. Think of things like VaatiVidya’s videos on Souls lore or even the numerous Zelda ones.

These things all help contribute to a game’s word of mouth or anticipation for the next. You cannot have these in your game but it makes selling to more people harder since it relies on the gameplay clicking with everyone like Minecraft—which even then has its own setting people have explored at this point.
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Sure, sure. I apologize for not being clear and indicating that I thought that you were making a story/characterization comparison. I was making that comparison to respond to your point about story/characterization.

Basically, I agree with you that a shift in gameplay to something that modern FPSes like Halo or DOOM are doing is ideal, but I was using Halo as a separate argument against setting/characterization holding Metroid back. If 3D Metroid has awesome pew-pew, no one is going to care about the limited use of the setting/characterization. It will sell more on the back of the gameplay.
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
None of these should seem controversial, change setting, or even genre/gameplay. However, the fanbase seems highly resistant to such ideas because to put it frankly “reasons.” If they consider these “compromises” then I don’t have much faith in the fanbase.
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I don't consider myself a very big Metroid fan, but "Metroid needs to be more like Doom and Halo" seems like a pretty big compromise.
 
Clix said:
Will only speak personally. I enjoyed Doom 2016 for what it was, BUT, I personally do not want it to play like that. I know it gets a side eye, but I do really see the series as an FPA. It's a first person game, but it really does not play like a shooter at all, and I really love the way Prime plays, especially the third one, as I really do not like how most FPS games play since I am not an FPS person.

As for the story, sure, it is minimalist, but it works. The world setting and stakes and the galaxy are set up. I think Metroid has a unique way of handling their universe and storytelling which I personally like. Especially Prime with the logs.
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It’s a first person game with a gun so it will be compared to FPS whether that is fair or not. If Metroid is going to not learn what other FPS have done in the last century then it will hurt in sales. Maybe not for Prime 4 but absolutely for whatever sequel comes next.

I personally wouldn’t call it minimalist just nonexistent as the logs should be supplemental & not the backbone for the series world building.

Mekanos said:
Yeah, that's the dice you roll making fundamental changes to a series with a smaller fanbase to attract a wider audience. See the post above me. I'm not even a diehard Metroid fan resistant to change, if the game is good I'll play it, just speaking candidly about the situation.

I don't think Metroid can stay recognizable in its current form and consistently sell over 5 million. Definitely not the 2D games.
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Nothing about what I suggested is fundamentally changing small fanbase or not. Other -vania games are able to have npcs, world building, & characterization. Gameplay is take it or leave it but can still be improved regardless of version.
If this is what is considered fundamentally changing then I’m skeptical of how sustainable Metroid’s current sales are.
DistractedByPixels said:
Sure, sure. I apologize for not being clear and indicating that I thought that you were making a story/characterization comparison. I was making that comparison to respond to your point about story/characterization.

Basically, I agree with you that a shift in gameplay to something that modern FPSes like Halo or DOOM are doing is ideal, but I was using Halo as a separate argument against setting/characterization holding Metroid back. If 3D Metroid has awesome pew-pew, no one is going to care about the limited use of the setting/characterization. It will sell more on the back of the gameplay.
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I mean I’m not denying that good gameplay can cover for these shortcomings. But, if they don’t care for how awesome the gameplay is then what else is the game offering for them. I just think you need a good combination of the three to really get people invested on multiple levels. This helps the game/franchise with its word of mouth & sales potential
JoshuaJSlone said:
I don't consider myself a very big Metroid fan, but "Metroid needs to be more like Doom and Halo" seems like a pretty big compromise.
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Never said it needed to be but learn from what they and other FPS have done at least in terms of Prime. Unless we are okay with tank controls in 2022 from 2006.
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
If this is what is considered fundamentally changing then I’m skeptical of how sustainable Metroid’s current sales are.
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You'd be right to have that skepticism and it's something I've shared before, and represents the catch 22 for a lot of Metroid fans. They want the series to be more successful and mainstream but are resistant to changes that would make it more accessible to mainstream audiences. Nintendo invests in the series in the same way studios invest in Oscar-caliber films that they hope will grant them critical acclaim with lower box office returns, but the problem is a game like Prime undeniably demands a big budget. So I'll be curious where the franchise is in another 10 years or so, it wouldn't surprise me if despite moderate success it goes into cold storage again, like other similarly successful series like Wario Land.

Again, just look at how people are reacting to this thread at the thought of Metroid being more in line with Halo and Doom's gameplay. You can say these changes aren't fundamental, but fans are very particular about what Metroid looks like as an IP, and Nintendo knows that.
 
Mekanos said:
You'd be right to have that skepticism and it's something I've shared before, and represents the catch 22 for a lot of Metroid fans. They want the series to be more successful and mainstream but are resistant to changes that would make it more accessible to mainstream audiences. Nintendo invests in the series in the same way studios invest in Oscar-caliber films that they hope will grant them critical acclaim with lower box office returns, but the problem is a game like Prime undeniably demands a big budget. So I'll be curious where the franchise is in another 10 years or so, it wouldn't surprise me if despite moderate success it goes into cold storage again, like other similarly successful series like Wario Land.

Again, just look at how people are reacting to this thread at the thought of Metroid being more in line with Halo and Doom's gameplay. You can say these changes aren't fundamental, but fans are very particular about what Metroid looks like as an IP, and Nintendo knows that.
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I mean I’m curious what happens in the event that Sakamoto retires with no one apparent on the 2D end & on the 3D end if Retro gets burnt out again. I’ll be watching sequel sales carefully because it’s usually not the successful one Metroid has to watch out for.

I mean I know how they react since I have had this conversation before plenty of times with tons of pushback. My thing is that Prime 4 is going to eschew closer to modern FPS design whether they like it or not. At that point it is no longer a fundamental change. Either the game does it or suffers sales because of it. Same could be said about npcs, characterization, & world building it’s only a matter of time especially in the hands of any future directors or attempting to increase sales potential; doubly so if the fans want the series to have a multimedia presence.
 
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Nintendo fans are the ones that buy them it's the other 90 million people that don't.
 
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Tentacle-tropes said:
It’s a first person game with a gun so it will be compared to FPS whether that is fair or not. If Metroid is going to not learn what other FPS have done in the last century then it will hurt in sales. Maybe not for Prime 4 but absolutely for whatever sequel comes next.

I personally wouldn’t call it minimalist just nonexistent as the logs should be supplemental & not the backbone for the series world building.


Nothing about what I suggested is fundamentally changing small fanbase or not. Other -vania games are able to have npcs, world building, & characterization. Gameplay is take it or leave it but can still be improved regardless of version.
If this is what is considered fundamentally changing then I’m skeptical of how sustainable Metroid’s current sales are.

I mean I’m not denying that good gameplay can cover for these shortcomings. But, if they don’t care for how awesome the gameplay is then what else is the game offering for them. I just think you need a good combination of the three to really get people invested on multiple levels. This helps the game/franchise with its word of mouth & sales potential

Never said it needed to be but learn from what they and other FPS have done at least in terms of Prime. Unless we are okay with tank controls in 2022 from 2006.
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I get why it’s compared but I would rather it not turn into that and be it’s own thing gameplay wise. Sure they can go like what other “fps” games does, but the it won’t be what makes Prime special.
 
Clix said:
I get why it’s compared but I would rather it not turn into that and be it’s own thing gameplay wise. Sure they can go like what other “fps” games does, but the it won’t be what makes Prime special.
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Also, I have zero stake in sales. I’m not on the board. If it can just be successful enough to get a new one once in a while, I am fine with that. I don’t want a series to change so much just because it needs to reach the broadest audience possible.

And I would also disagree with it being non existent. With the way Samus is portrayed and her at present mission, the logs are fine. And if they want to add more active storytelling without overdoing it, Prime 3 handled that well with some of the side characters.

I just say, don’t concern yourself with sales so much. Sometimes it’s best to let a series rest for a while and not have it become another FPS, which it is not at all. It’s a slow, exploration adventure game with some shooting.
 
Clix said:
Also, I have zero stake in sales. I’m not on the board. If it can just be successful enough to get a new one once in a while, I am fine with that. I don’t want a series to change so much just because it needs to reach the broadest audience possible.

And I would also disagree with it being non existent. With the way Samus is portrayed and her at present mission, the logs are fine. And if they want to add more active storytelling without overdoing it, Prime 3 handled that well with some of the side characters.

I just say, don’t concern yourself with sales so much. Sometimes it’s best to let a series rest for a while and not have it become another FPS, which it is not at all. It’s a slow, exploration adventure game with some shooting.
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I mean I have no vested interest in Metroid at this point since I find it a disappointing series that routinely squanders itself on multiple levels. If the series goes back into cryo-storage for another 15yrs because the sales weren’t sustainable because the series refused to learn then I’m not losing any sleep.
 
If Metroid Dread had sold just 100k units more, would the game be a success? Because it seems a lot of Dread sales disappointment is related to not being able to sell 3M which is in the end an arbitrary barrier caused by us preferring round numbers. I don't understand all the doom posts around Metroid Dread sales when it became the best selling entry in the history of the franchise in just five months (and the first 2D entry to sell 2M+ since the first game), and Switch has proved to give most games good legs even niche ones.

Will Metroid Dread have MK8 legs? Of course not but it can easily crawl slowly to the 3.5M range, as other people have commented shipments were low due to no need to restock the game because there were already restocks for Christmas (30th Dec it had sold 2.3M shipped 2.74M). I’d wait for CESA White Book 2022 before judging the game legs, sadly we will not have access to it until H2 2023 probably.

pd: I was one of the people who wished and even thought it could do 4M LTD and right now it would be 3M+ but in the end, while that could happen it wasn't the most realistic prediction and the game doing 3.5M LTD and 2.9M in around 5 months is already a success and gives the series a big chance of not going dormant again.
 
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Consider the customer base of a Nintendo console as the industry in microcosm. Not everything will or can be über-successful, and to expect otherwise is madness.

Now, I do think a lot of games or series deserve to sell better than they do, but it must be recognized that being outside of the mainstream isn't inherently bad. The hope is that they do well enough.

And even among games that haven't historically sold astronomical amounts, I do think some could still reach higher.

Amin_Parker said:
Those games need to have their own anime series or quite possibly a live action movie at the box office before a wider audience starts to really recognize these series for the legendary games that they are. I understand that f zero had an anime series already but that's not enough. F-zero needs to have a live action movie before a wider General audience starts to recognize it. For these great franchises just having a AAA game on the market may not be enough. Its going to have to reach outside of the media in order to gain attention. Especially Metroid. That series will need a well-made live action movie to go along with the games.
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... I'm not sure this is the answer, especially once one considers the general horror of (especially live action) video game movies, which wouldn't be guaranteed to draw people in regardless.
Now, some series do seem like they might do very well with, say, an animal adaptation or what have you -- Star Fox, for instance -- but I certainly wouldn't suggest it as an absolute necessity.

Tye said:
If you’re upset about some Nintendo fans not buying games like Metroid Dread, I hope you’re even more upset when Nintendo fans don’t buy games that sell even worse like Sushi Striker or Famicom Detective Club. =p But yeah it’s always kinda sad to see some Nintendo games be so neglected by fans compared to others.
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Bought Sushi StrikerI.
... really hoping for a physical release of the complete Famicom Detective Club collection.

Robert said:
F-Zero is in a tough spot. Like Wipeout, it's a franchise that simultaneously has a high skill floor and ceiling, which for a racing game isn't a good combination. Hard to sell a game that's really difficult to both play at all and play at a high level.
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Just have Platinum Games go wild with an F-Zero Hyper-Stylish Racing Action Game and see what happens.
Supreme Overlord said:
Supreme Overlord said:
Tangential thought: an F-Zero Hyper Stylish Racing Action Game by Platinum Games would almost certainly include some iteration of Wonder Red)
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Supreme Overlord said:
I present again the outlandish idea of F-Zero, Hyper Stylish Racing Action Game developed by Platinum Games
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Supreme Overlord said:
Clearly the game wasn't greenlit, so I must conclude that the idea was too far out there ...

Or that Nintendo already has Platinum Games on queue for an F-Zero Hyper Stylish Racing Action Game.
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Supreme Overlord said:
They wouldn't be in this situation if they'd just gone ahead and made that F-Zero Hyper Stylish Racing Action Game.
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It'll at least be hyper-stylish.
I see your point, and the frustrating part is that's not unrelated to what I especially liked about it -- not that one couldn't theoretically try to lower the floor, if so inclined
 
Supreme Overlord said:
... really hoping for a physical release of the complete Famicom Detective Club collection.
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I would’ve liked that too, but it’s clearly not happening at this point, unfortunately, so you may as well download them now if you actually want them. =P

I’ve seen a lot of Nintendo fans have this same excuse for not buying those games, though, which is a bummer… Wonder how many of those people have actually gone back and got the games digitally by now with no physical version in sight.
 
Tentacle-tropes, what is it you would define as the core of Metroid? That seems essential to a conversation wherein it is discussed what can be altered within a Metroid game without removing that essence.

I would suggest that the first step would be to determine what the essence of the series is, which could be a number of different things, where then different parts might be ignored or tweaked within an entry so long as the majority are still present.

I don't get a good read from your posts as to what you think is important to the franchise as is, though I do notice the implication that moody or melancholy, horroresque in atmosphere, is especially specific, even if there's actually a lot of room to work with in that description.

And your post, in conjunction with having no frame of reference for what you think is fundamental to Metroid, does read very much like a statement that the series needs to just become like a typical shooter. Maybe that's because it involves taking cues from modern shooters without explaining what's actually meant by that.

If you're going to insist that people who care about Metroid -- which, by admission, you don't -- are unreasonable if they have misgivings about your line of suggestion, it might be a good idea to explain what you think is important to the series, so you can show why you don't think your line of suggestions will change that.

Now, something like Dark Souls might not be a terrible comparison for how NPCs and story and worldbuilding might loosly work in one of these -- it even has a moody atmosphere. It seems a bit closer to the idea than, say, Halo, even if the latter does have the all-important sci-fi power-armored protagonist.

Clix said:
Whoa whoa whoa
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I've said it elsewhere, but suggestions that Metroid needs to completely reinvent itself into something more mainstream and less of itself do often come from people who just don't like or don't care about the series.
 
With 3M in sales Metroid should make high 8 figures worth of profit given those all have been at full retail price. Hopefully, that’s a good enough return on investment.
 
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Magic-Man said:
That's only online, and most of those "fans" are just Playstation/Xbox trolls in disguise.
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I blame myself for making this anecdotal, but I personally disagree that Mario / Zelda purists are online trolls since I've met some of them IRL. Anyway you're right that Splatoon is not on the same level of Fire Emblem and Xenoblade, but I feel that what shares with those franchises is that we haven't seen its full sales potential yet. I truly believe that Splatoon will surpass the dinosaur franchises just like Animal Crossing did two years ago, but that's going to take a couple generations.
 
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OP took this in a completely different direction than I thought they would. Figured it was another complaint about 60 dollar games or suggestions that Nintendo gets a pass from reviewers...ya know...the usual nonsense.

I am pleased to say however what he does talk about makes a lot of sense. I wish Xenoblade games would become a 5+ mil seller on the low end for example.
 
Tye said:
I would’ve liked that too, but it’s clearly not happening at this point, unfortunately, so you may as well download them now if you actually want them. =P

I’ve seen a lot of Nintendo fans have this same excuse for not buying those games, though, which is a bummer… Wonder how many of those people have actually gone back and got the games digitally by now with no physical version in sight.
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Perhaps I might as well, though, [motion]gestures to the pile of games I acquired before obtaining a Switch[/motion].

Which I guess presents another portion of the equation to this thread's premise: sometimes people might be interested in and want to support something, but have to choose between it and other options, especially those that might also be generally overlooked, at least until they might come back to whichever option they couldn't choose at the time. All things are not in a vaccuum.

And if one of those is physical and likely to become more difficult to find, whilst the other is digital and likely to remain available as such, that could present another dimension as well.

Clearly, there are still those megahits that garner the largest proportions of support; choosing amongst different smaller, overlooked titles isn't going to apply to everyone or every instance, but a lot of people interested in one of these smaller titles are also going to be interested in others.

Some concern should obviously be directed toward what numbers are required for the continued support of a given series or style of game and whether that be reasonable for a particular circumstance, and those decisions can't be thrown entirely on the customer base.

And this ties somewhat to the conversation regarding Metroid and sales, wherein I tend to agree with Clix in that, while I personally think Metroid deserves to sell better, I'm not about to get up in arms that it's not among the highest-selling series. More people just have other things they want to buy or spend their time on, and that's okay. I primarily want it to do well enough, and going further is a well-deserved bonus.

But I don't necessarily expect it'll be considered something not niche. And it doesn't necessarily have to be. But the expectations do need to be reasonable for that situation.

Now, it does seem to me the series could stand to focus on its core elements and build around that identity, so as to cultivate a consistent fan base that is at least large enough for it to continue as what it is -- by which I don't mean make the same thing over and over, but be cognizant of the series identity so that new concepts just fit, even if they superficially seem a departure.

I'll point to Dark Souls again really quickly because it's an easy example, in that everything about it screams niche, but it leaned into the elements that make it what it is, and it's absolutely been a success. You have to know what you're trying to do, and chasing the absolute most sales at the expense of all else is seldom the answer.


And I guess that also loops back to the discussion of what and how much is reasonable to say needs to change for the series to gain ground, but that has to come from a place of genuine consideration, something deeper than a glance at broad genre.
 
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I do my best to support the more niche franchises (Metroid, Xenoblade, Star Fox). I’m not a huge Metroid fan but I still took a chance on Dread (and enjoyed it). But I am only 1 person and I’m not exactly an exceptional earner, so sometimes I don’t have the money to buy my Zeldas, Marios, and my Xenoblades, so to speak.

I almost treat it like supporting a “small business”. Yes I know they are all owned by Nintendo, but I’m trying to support their lesser known properties so that Nintendo can keep investing in and growing their other IPs.
 
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On one hand yeah I get it OP, I wish more people bought Metroid and Kid Icarus and Star Fox than currently do. But on the other hand, and this is I guess about Metroid in particular, I don't get why it's so hard to market these franchises. I don't understand why it's so difficult to market a game with Samus in it. She's literally one of the coolest characters ever conceived. Metroidvanias are a huge genre and the games are typically top-tier. I truly don't know why it can't see a bigger success, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt if franchise momentum is actually going to increase.
 
Clix said:
Whoa whoa whoa
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Sorry that’s just the way I feel. I loved the lore and material found within the first game but ever since it’s been slim pickings. I don’t think the gameplay is that enthralling to me that it can cover a lot of these areas.

I don’t think what I suggested is even remotely close to what fans call a loss of identity or reinventing the wheel. Also miss me on not caring or even liking the series in the first place. I wanna feel excited for this series but I’m not getting my hopes up.
 
I want 3D Metroid to be more like Batman: Arkham Asylum. So keep the "get tools to progress/explore to 100%" elements, keep the moody tone, but write a story with more engaging bad guys and add a bunch of stuff to scan that also builds the characterization, I guess?

And find a way to do the morph ball that isn't disorienting. Make it only doable in specific parts of the map.

I feel like Raven Beak is a good step toward "engaging big bad," so there's that. I really want this new 3D Metroid to be good.

Also, make the pew-pew feel better, but that's a nebulous suggestion as I have it formed in my mind, and I need to think about what I mean by that more specifically.
 
Christo750 said:
On one hand yeah I get it OP, I wish more people bought Metroid and Kid Icarus and Star Fox than currently do. But on the other hand, and this is I guess about Metroid in particular, I don't get why it's so hard to market these franchises. I don't understand why it's so difficult to market a game with Samus in it. She's literally one of the coolest characters ever conceived. Metroidvanias are a huge genre and the games are typically top-tier. I truly don't know why it can't see a bigger success, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt if franchise momentum is actually going to increase.
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Most Metroidvanias are half the cost of a full retail game, if not even less than that. Have any Metroidvanias even sold 5+ million?

Plus Dread got a ton of marketing, marketing isn't the problem here.
 
There are some cases is just a question of how approachable a genre is; Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing.. even Pokémon being more on the easier side when compared to other RPGs, is much more accessible. Now, when you're going to something a tad more complex (F-Zero, Metroid, Fire Emblem) or limiting (Star Fox), you won't get numbers as expressive, but that's fine.. Heck, this applies to more broader industry as well, not only Nintendo games; Internal sales expectations are (usually) proportionally measure as well.. And games also get proportional appropriated budgets.

you don't actually need any of these franchises to be as big as the pillars of the company to be successful on their own terms; You should be celebrating Dread's numbers and not lameting it didn't do as well as Mario Kart 8 Deluxe...
 
Switch owners are buying indies, remasters and Japanese games (especially RPGs) by the bucketload. I'm pretty okay with where things are now.
 
Nah… Maybe the ones that only buys Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and not interested in trying other minor franchises/other genres and even dismiss them bugs me a little bit but essentially no.
 
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Supreme Overlord said:
Consider the customer base of a Nintendo console as the industry in microcosm. Not everything will or can be über-successful, and to expect otherwise is madness.

Now, I do think a lot of games or series deserve to sell better than they do, but it must be recognized that being outside of the mainstream isn't inherently bad. The hope is that they do well enough.

And even among games that haven't historically sold astronomical amounts, I do think some could still reach higher.


... I'm not sure this is the answer, especially once one considers the general horror of (especially live action) video game movies, which wouldn't be guaranteed to draw people in regardless.
Now, some series do seem like they might do very well with, say, an animal adaptation or what have you -- Star Fox, for instance -- but I certainly wouldn't suggest it as an absolute necessity.


Bought Sushi StrikerI.
... really hoping for a physical release of the complete Famicom Detective Club collection.


Just have Platinum Games go wild with an F-Zero Hyper-Stylish Racing Action Game and see what happens.

It'll at least be hyper-stylish.
I see your point, and the frustrating part is that's not unrelated to what I especially liked about it -- not that one couldn't theoretically try to lower the floor, if so inclined
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I really appreciate your reply to my statement. In Metroid case if you're not sure about a movie complimenting the series in order to push it into the mainstream then may I offer the idea of a well-made novel series. A book series that can catch on with the general public preferably written by the original game creator. Ultimately I still feel like a well-made movie with a fantastic storyline with top actors would go even farther but let's just say a movie is out of the cards, I would present the idea of a very well-made book series. The only way any of these franchises will really be pushed further into the ether is if they can have something outside of the gaming media that is grabbing the general Public's attention. Even if Metroid started selling 10 million copies per game it will still need something to go along with it outside of the gaming media in order for the franchise to hit that high level of recognition that movies like the predator and the alien franchises have reached. Another consideration that I have for Metroid is for Samus to finally once and for all do a way with that suit that she wears in every game. She needs to be presented as Zero Suit Samus from now on from beginning to end of every game. They need to push her beauty. That right there will grab the attention of a huge audience. And the game will need to continue to be very well made as well as very well written. I understand that Just having a beautiful character on the screen isn't enough the game needs to continue being extremely top quality. I think it's the way that the character is always wearing that suit that people don't like. The fact that she's in a suit and most people don't know if she's a man or woman is something that's not making the game sell very well.
 
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If it counts? I suppose one thing I'll always have a bit of resentment reserved for is how the proponents of Operation Rainfall at the time never rallied to include Zangeki no Reginleiv, when the opportunity was there.

Another time, another place, Nintendo could have had its own ongoing, exclusive "EDF-like" franchise, just with demons and swords instead of aliens and giant insects!
 
Clix said:
Will only speak personally. I enjoyed Doom 2016 for what it was, BUT, I personally do not want it to play like that. I know it gets a side eye, but I do really see the series as an FPA. It's a first person game, but it really does not play like a shooter at all, and I really love the way Prime plays, especially the third one, as I really do not like how most FPS games play since I am not an FPS person.

As for the story, sure, it is minimalist, but it works. The world setting and stakes and the galaxy are set up. I think Metroid has a unique way of handling their universe and storytelling which I personally like. Especially Prime with the logs.
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To be honest one of the reasons I liked the Doom reboot as much as I did was because it reminded me of Metroid Prime.
Of course Metroid wouldn't be level based and it wouldn't be a gore fest like those are, but especially the slower Doom 2016 made really wish Metroid made a comeback.
And how the whole arsenal works in Eternal with dedicated buttons for things like grenades, flamethrower, melee, chainsaw and sword, I could totally see such a setup be applied to the Metroid Powerups.
I don't think anyone is suggesting they should turn Metroid into a linear FPS, Doom just has some, and if that was expanded upon and the world was properly interconnected so you can revisit old areas without the story dictating it I think it would be a good baseline for a modern Metroid.
 
Brock Reiher said:
I'm pretty open at my disappointment at the Metroid fan base for buying Dread, but that's really the only example I can think of.
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You're dissappointed that the best Metroid game since Super... sold well, is the best selling in the series, and one of the most critically acclaimed games in the series as well?? We should be rewarding excellent games with a lot of passion behind them, not punishing them. Also, if Dread had failed, I dont want to see you in a thread 10 years from now complaining about why Prime 4 is the last Metroid game we have gotten due to theoretical poor sales of Dread and Prime 4.
 
DistractedByPixels said:
I want 3D Metroid to be more like Batman: Arkham Asylum. So keep the "get tools to progress/explore to 100%" elements, keep the moody tone, but write a story with more engaging bad guys and add a bunch of stuff to scan that also builds the characterization, I guess?

And find a way to do the morph ball that isn't disorienting. Make it only doable in specific parts of the map.

I feel like Raven Beak is a good step toward "engaging big bad," so there's that. I really want this new 3D Metroid to be good.

Also, make the pew-pew feel better, but that's a nebulous suggestion as I have it formed in my mind, and I need to think about what I mean by that more specifically.
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The games were already moving in a more story heavy direction.
Let's ignore Other M because that was just misstep (and I don't think it's a downright awful game, it's fine, just weird decisions and shit story)
Prime 3 I think did a really good job of setting up the other Hunters you fight later.
Don't like the idea of context sensitive morphball though, I think it will already be much less disorienting with normal camera controls on the second stick, because no 3D Metroid really did that so far.
If anything I think they should find a way to have the morphball be part of the combat outside of just laying down bombs.
Like trying to make the morph ball boost feel good, maybe some lockon? Okay maybe don't turn it into a Sonic homing attack but still.
The Morphball is such an iconic part of the games, I think it would be weird relegating it to just specific spots.
But I agree on Raven Beak, very well setup villain, hoping for more of that.
 
Formula Zero said:
I blame Nintendo for No new F-Zero rather than the fans

idk what did they expect from GX in a pathetically low sale numbers and playerbase the GameCube had
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I don’t think that the low sales of F-Zero GX are the reason why we haven’t got any new game, It’s more Nintendo not having any team for it and not being a priority for Nintendo due not really expanding their lineup of games, we will probably have to wait for a team (infernal or external) to pitch an idea Nintendo likes.
 
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