Spoiler Xenoblade 3: Future Redeemed SPOILER THREAD | The outcome was patently obvious.

[Aleh]

This can’t be the case, because we know the circumstances that led to Earth’s disappearance in Xenosaga and the events and timeline don’t match at all. They both involved the Conduit/Zohar, but that’s about it.

The Xenosaga connections, if any, are going to be less direct than that; for example, it could just be hinting that Eternal Recurrence is also a thing in Xenoblade, explaining why things from Xenosaga can appear in Xenoblade, and that could also explain a lot regarding the connections to XCX.

To be clear, I’m not saying that the Saga and Blade timelines match, I was using Saga’s backstory on Lost Jerusalem to explain what’s probably going on with the planet from a “space-time” perspective

 

[Tye]

To be clear, I’m not saying that the Saga and Blade timelines match, I was using Saga’s backstory on Lost Jerusalem to explain what’s probably going on with the planet from a “space-time” perspective

I guess I don’t really follow what you mean by that. Wouldn’t it make more sense then for that to be the result of Klaus’s experiment with the Conduit rather than Origin/Z creating Aionios in that case?

 

[Brewster123]

I think trying to line Xenoblade with Xenosaga exactly is a fools errand. Takahashi isnt afraid to adjust and retcon stuff, and I'd consider the retcons XC2 did to XC1 to be larger than what they'd need to do to line up Xenosaga and Xenoblade.

Spoiler: Xenosaga

The only major change would be to replace Grimoire Verum (who performed the Zohar experiment that deleted lost jerusalem in Xenosaga) with Klaus's decision and to adjust Nephillim's (Verum's daughter) character accordingly. The ensuing matter shifts would then be contained to lost jerusalem by Wilhelm just like they were in Xenosaga, with the Xenoblades occuring in the planck scale dimension Wilhelm made. Everything else works out well enough (ignoring comparitively minor details of course) unless I'm forgetting something.

Even ignoring that, I also don't think that the merging of Blade and Saga needs to be strictly accurate to Blade and Saga's timelines or histories. The main theme of future redeemed is that neither staying in the past (Moebius / Conservative City Dwellers) nor looking exclusively towards the future (Alpha) is ideal. Instead one should keep the past in mind and let it inform the future you create. Applying that reasoning to a Saga-Blade merger, Takahashi may be letting the past (Xenosaga) inform the future of Xenoblade. That is, characters, events, and motifs may reappear, but not in exact same manner or style as they did in Saga. Its worth noting that this is literally what Takahashi has been doing ever since Xenogears; its just the connections are now a bit more overt than they have been in the past for Xenoblade.

 

[Tye]

I think trying to line Xenoblade with Xenosaga exactly is a fools errand. Takahashi isnt afraid to adjust and retcon stuff, and I'd consider the retcons XC2 did to XC1 to be larger than what they'd need to do to line up Xenosaga and Xenoblade.

Spoiler: Xenosaga

The only major change would be to replace Grimoire Verum (who performed the Zohar experiment that deleted lost jerusalem in Xenosaga) with Klaus's decision and to adjust Nephillim's (Verum's daughter) character accordingly. The ensuing matter shifts would then be contained to lost jerusalem by Wilhelm just like they were in Xenosaga, with the Xenoblades occuring in the planck scale dimension Wilhelm made. Everything else works out well enough (ignoring comparitively minor details of course) unless I'm forgetting something.

Even ignoring that, I also don't think that the merging of Blade and Saga needs to be strictly accurate to Blade and Saga's timelines or histories. The main theme of future redeemed is that neither staying in the past (Moebius / Conservative City Dwellers) nor looking exclusively towards the future (Alpha) is ideal. Instead one should keep the past in mind and let it inform the future you create. Applying that reasoning to a Saga-Blade merger, Takahashi may be letting the past (Xenosaga) inform the future of Xenoblade. That is, characters, events, and motifs may reappear, but not in exact same manner or style as they did in Saga. Its worth noting that this is literally what Takahashi has been doing ever since Xenogears; its just the connections are now a bit more overt than they have been in the past for Xenoblade.

I’d say changing entire characters and timelines (since the equivalent event in Xenosaga takes place in 2XXX while it’s only 20XX in Xenoblade) is a much bigger retcon than replacing a character’s necklace, changing the design of a space station, and extending the Klaus and Galea scene (the latter two of which can be chalked up to unreliable narrator, anyway), which is all that XC2 really changed of the first game. Plus there’s the fact that KOS-MOS already appears in XC2. Any kind of merger of the series would be too messy both canonically and legally unless it was something more distant, like being alternate universes or being implied to exist in the same universe but separate enough that they can still exist independently, possibly by way of universal resets via Eternal Recurrence or something of that nature.

 

[Brewster123]

I’d say changing entire characters and timelines (since the equivalent event in Xenosaga takes place in 2XXX while it’s only 20XX in Xenoblade) is a much bigger retcon than replacing a character’s necklace, changing the design of a space station, and extending the Klaus and Galea scene (the latter two of which can be chalked up to unreliable narrator, anyway), which is all that XC2 really changed of the first game. Plus there’s the fact that KOS-MOS already appears in XC2. Any kind of merger of the series would be too messy both canonically and legally unless it was something more distant, like being alternate universes or being implied to exist in the same universe but separate enough that they can still exist independently, possibly by way of universal resets via Eternal Recurrence or something of that nature.

You realize 2XXX and 20XX are compatible and partially overlapping date ranges, right? For a series like Saga that spans thousands of years, I personally don't think shifting the timing listed in some glossary entries a few hundred years to be that substantial an impact to the experience. Perhaps it is just my own biases showing, but I tend to be less caught up in the specifics of lore/worldbuilding (Dates, Technology, etc) and moreso focus on how broader aspects of a world reflect on a given media or franchise's characters and ideas. As for the character changes, I personally don't think the loss of Grimoire would be a big change given that he is largely relegated to A Missing Year and glossary entries. Nephillim would be much larger, but given that, to me personally, the changes made to XC1 by XC2 significantly change how I view and experience XC1, I'd say it is comparable retcon.

All that said, I do think the most likely outcome (and the outcome I'd personally want the most) is something closer to what you posit. I'm hoping its a similar but parallel universe such that Takhashi can rexplore Saga's characters and ideas while not being tightly tied down to writing descisions he (or other bandai namco staff given how the development of Xenosaga went) made several years ago.

 

[Almadel]

After thinking about it for some days, I believe I have an idea of where they are going with all this. That surprising lore dump they did via radio I mean. It makes sense in my head at least.

Takahashi did say something to the effect of that people who play the DLC story will be able to imagine what lies in the future for Xenoblade. Based on that I don't believe for a second that the whole thing was just meaningless easter eggs (as if providing a second set of subtitles for it wasn't enough!). Does that mean it's all really connected then? Not exactly. Not directly at least.

You see, one of the biggest misconceptions I've seen around regarding 3's plot is that it's supposed to be about leaving the past behind. That's completely wrong, the real theme is about integrating the past into the future, facing and accepting your past, facing and accepting yourself, otherwise you can never truly move on. This symbolism becomes at its most clear when Noah and N join together, and by doing this they are finally able to overcome Z after multiple failures. Future Connected also contained this message, albeit in a more subdued manner, as that was the whole point of the conflict between Melia and Gael'gar.

This theme reaches its absolute zenith in Future Redeemed. The game doesn't shy away one bit from what it's attempting to convey, and it does so repeatedly throughout the whole thing. Alpha's obsession with leaving behind all attachments so he can move towards something new and different is a stark contrast to the Moebius perspective of absolute attachment and refusal to advance. And yet, as Matthew concludes, both perspectives are effectively just as harmful. By adopting either you essentially betray your true self.

This theme isn't just present in the main story but in sidequests too. One particular standout is the one about rebuilding the Remembrance Stones. In it the character involved thinks that it's a tragedy that the stones got destroyed alongside the City since they have no way to remember the old fallen anymore. Matthew agrees with him and that the past shouldn't be forgotten but then also suggests... well why not just build new ones? Despite being an obvious solution, the character admits he didn't think of that, because to him the stones were so precious that in his mind they just couldn't be replaced or modified. This excessive attachment thus causes a paralysis that would have effectively achieved the same result as simply abandoning everything.

So what does any of that have to do with the radio? Well... It's just as Matthew says at the end:



A sentiment repeated later when Alpha tempts him to discard the past and Matthew resists by proclaiming that he's "not dying with so much left undone".

...I think Monolith are being a bit cheeky with this. Future Redeemed isn't just a conclusion to the Klaus experiment, it's also a declaration of intentions on their part on what they are planning for Xenoblade, just like Takahashi said. That they are not leaving behind the very reason the studio was created, neither due to abandoning it nor being too afraid of modifying it. What I believe, and that's the point of what was presented, is that they are going back to their old works, borrow their ideas, concepts, stories, characters, what have you, and adapting them into Xenoblade, a new form under which they can actually have a future. A transformation and rebirth.

Couldn't agree more. That cutscene isn't some simple easter egg. I wouldn't think you'd go through all that copyright trouble just for that.

But I also don't think it means we're necessarily getting Xenosaga: Episode IV. Maybe we'll get some bizarro Xenoblade/Saga hybrid.

Maybe we'll see more official Xenosaga, or maybe we won't. But either way, Takahashi clearly has certain ideas and story points he wants to continue.

 

[Tye]

You realize 2XXX and 20XX are compatible and partially overlapping date ranges, right? For a series like Saga that spans thousands of years, I personally don't think shifting the timing listed in some glossary entries a few hundred years to be that substantial an impact to the experience. Perhaps it is just my own biases showing, but I tend to be less caught up in the specifics of lore/worldbuilding (Dates, Technology, etc) and moreso focus on how broader aspects of a world reflect on a given media or franchise's characters and ideas. As for the character changes, I personally don't think the loss of Grimoire would be a big change given that he is largely relegated to A Missing Year and glossary entries. Nephillim would be much larger, but given that, to me personally, the changes made to XC1 by XC2 significantly change how I view and experience XC1, I'd say it is comparable retcon.

All that said, I do think the most likely outcome (and the outcome I'd personally want the most) is something closer to what you posit. I'm hoping its a similar but parallel universe such that Takhashi can rexplore Saga's characters and ideas while not being tightly tied down to writing descisions he (or other bandai namco staff given how the development of Xenosaga went) made several years ago.

I mean, technically, sure, but when they specifically give a date of “20XX” for when the Zohar is first found and experimented on, and then give a date of “2XXX” for when the later experiments with Matter Shifts happened, the implication is clearly that the latter happens at least as late as 2100 or so. And agree to disagree on the idea that changing characters and events surrounding them is less of a retcon than or even comparable to merely adding additional context to things shown in a previous game that doesn’t otherwise change anything about the original game, only enhance it.

But yeah, we can agree on that last part for sure. That’s definitely the best and most likely option, I feel.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I think trying to line Xenoblade with Xenosaga exactly is a fools errand. Takahashi isnt afraid to adjust and retcon stuff, and I'd consider the retcons XC2 did to XC1 to be larger than what they'd need to do to line up Xenosaga and Xenoblade.

Spoiler: Xenosaga

The only major change would be to replace Grimoire Verum (who performed the Zohar experiment that deleted lost jerusalem in Xenosaga) with Klaus's decision and to adjust Nephillim's (Verum's daughter) character accordingly. The ensuing matter shifts would then be contained to lost jerusalem by Wilhelm just like they were in Xenosaga, with the Xenoblades occuring in the planck scale dimension Wilhelm made. Everything else works out well enough (ignoring comparitively minor details of course) unless I'm forgetting something.

Even ignoring that, I also don't think that the merging of Blade and Saga needs to be strictly accurate to Blade and Saga's timelines or histories. The main theme of future redeemed is that neither staying in the past (Moebius / Conservative City Dwellers) nor looking exclusively towards the future (Alpha) is ideal. Instead one should keep the past in mind and let it inform the future you create. Applying that reasoning to a Saga-Blade merger, Takahashi may be letting the past (Xenosaga) inform the future of Xenoblade. That is, characters, events, and motifs may reappear, but not in exact same manner or style as they did in Saga. Its worth noting that this is literally what Takahashi has been doing ever since Xenogears; its just the connections are now a bit more overt than they have been in the past for Xenoblade.

You'd need to deal with the fact that the Zohar's location is completely accounted for for the entire relevant 4000+ years that Xenosaga takes place in. It's actually shockingly close to doable, since a lot of the interesting stuff it does happens in a similar timeframe to the gap between Xenoblade 1 & 2 and Xenoblade 3, with the very notable exception of the events of Pied Piper, and some of the stuff immediately following on from that.

Spoiler: Xenosaga

No, that couldn't have been an emulator. I'm pretty sure that was definitively before those existed.

Regardless, we can already tell from the radio broadcast that consistency with Xenosaga is not really a goal. I assume most of the parallels will be pretty loose.

 

[RogueyOneKenobi]

I kind of feel like I missed out on some of the impact of the significant end of game lore dump given that I haven’t played saga or gears. (I know of Kos-Mos through XC2 & that project X zone game but that’s about it)

That sequence was still fantastic but yeah, I feel like that could have been my jaw drop moment.

I’d love to play those games though & hopefully I’ll get the chance to if they get remade or something.

 

[VegiHam]

I kind of feel like I missed out on some of the impact of the significant end of game lore dump given that I haven’t played saga or gears. (I know of Kos-Mos through XC2 & that project X zone game but that’s about it)

That sequence was still fantastic but yeah, I feel like that could have been my jaw drop moment.

I’d love to play those games though & hopefully I’ll get the chance to if they get remade or something.

I feel the same! My take on the radio scene was that it was vaguely referencing X (Earthlife Colonisation Project), but the point of it was to undercut Na'el's naivety about the past world. So it was a little surprising to Log On and find out it was a reference to a totally different series.

If only someone could port those games to a modern system, then you wouldn't need to be an Old from Playstation Times to catch it.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I feel the same! My take on the radio scene was that it was vaguely referencing X (Earthlife Colonisation Project), but the point of it was to undercut Na'el's naivety about the past world. So it was a little surprising to Log On and find out it was a reference to a totally different series.

If only someone could port those games to a modern system, then you wouldn't need to be an Old from Playstation Times to catch it.

Thematically, the broadcast is there to emphasize that Na'el is being naive and things aren't going to last, as you said, but it also serves the meta purposes of dropping references to like every Xeno game not in the Klaus trilogy.

That said, I suspect the only thing that will really be necessary to understand what Xenoblade will be doing going forward is picking up on the implication that not all of humanity was on Earth when The Experiment happened.

 

[Aleh]

I guess I don’t really follow what you mean by that. Wouldn’t it make more sense then for that to be the result of Klaus’s experiment with the Conduit rather than Origin/Z creating Aionios in that case?

Yes, that’s what I mean. But in that stage it’s still Aionios

 

[Koren Lesthe]

Here’s a handy recap of the ending sequence

1) Aionios (the worlds aren’t physically present in the space around them hence the invisibility and why Earth is considered lost in Xenosaga)
2) Origin recreates the worlds separately
3) The worlds begin to merge again (but properly, presumably no destruction this time)
4) The world is finally restored to its original unified state

Thanks !
So it makes much more sense that young Noah hears the Agnus sending song (probably from Mio) at the end if this is one single world now.

 

[FeiFongWong]

I finished the dlc yesterday before going to bed and I'm still trying to piece together what I saw. Everything surrounding Origin doesnt make much sense to me. I hate it when answers arent in games but they have to be pieced together by fans or even made up.

There is too much "space magic" going on in here without real logic. To me origin resembles matrix. I believe that people stored their memories in origin, but after the merge everyone died. So when they are talking about restoring everyone I dont think it makes sense that those people will come back to life. It only makes sense to me that origin will create clones or something to that extent. I also believe everything we experienced in 3 was virtual reality happening inside origin. How else would the ending make sense? People in game are some kind of ai created in the likeness of originals and by defeating Alpha Shulk and Rex gain higher role in the system, lets say "admin". Thats why they can override Nikols and Glimmers code that resets them after 10 years.

 

[BradenAndEggs]

“Counterattack” rips.

 

[Deleted member 2]

So when they are talking about restoring everyone I dont think it makes sense that those people will come back to life.

Completely agree with your post

Also, this is pretty much what happened to everyone at the end of 1, as well. Unless the main party were held in some sort of "limbo" while the entire universe and existence was rebooted apart from them

 

[Mister Gideon]

I finished the dlc yesterday before going to bed and I'm still trying to piece together what I saw. Everything surrounding Origin doesnt make much sense to me. I hate it when answers arent in games but they have to be pieced together by fans or even made up.

There is too much "space magic" going on in here without real logic. To me origin resembles matrix. I believe that people stored their memories in origin, but after the merge everyone died. So when they are talking about restoring everyone I dont think it makes sense that those people will come back to life. It only makes sense to me that origin will create clones or something to that extent. I also believe everything we experienced in 3 was virtual reality happening inside origin. How else would the ending make sense? People in game are some kind of ai created in the likeness of originals and by defeating Alpha Shulk and Rex gain higher role in the system, let’s say "admin". Thats why they can override Nikols and Glimmers code that resets them after 10 years.

When we go inside of Origin at the end of the main game we see that a large part of the interior is filled with giant versions of core crystals, so we can assume that the people stored within aren’t just memories - they’re very much wholly alive, in the same way that a blade whose owner dies in Alrest isn’t dead or cloned when they return to their core crystal and are reborn.

If Origin had worked correctly, after the two worlds had safely and successfully merged then the people within would have been reborn in much the same way as a blade being awoken from its crystal by a driver. The only difference is their memories would be intact because the only reason blades forgot their previous lives is due to Klaus/The Architect collecting data from their life experiences.

 

[Momo]

Found this from Xenoblade Reddit

 

[Eclissi]

I don't know if it's already written, but I finished the DLC a few minutes ago and I'd just like to say what came to my mind (connection with Xeno X):
new planet generated by the merger of the 2 worlds = Mira.
Blue meteor arriving on planet = White Whale.
Alvis/A linked to Elma.
Noah/Matthew linked to Lao.

It's too much?

 

[Jersh]

There’s a lovely scene between Jin and Gramps where the former says he doesn’t want forever, his time with Lora is enough - which basically helps inform his whole character arc.

I always thought this was an unspoken monologue from Jin, not actually said to Gramps.

There wasn't any evidence of Pneuma's existence (specifically, the processor) until Future Redeemed, which seems a bit like a retcon, much like Logos still existing somehow despite being cracked and presumably destroyed at the end of 2.

Eh?
Pnemua and the core crystal are one and the same thing. The crystal in Rex and Pyra/Mythra's chest IS the processor, and it's what Rex resonates with at the end of 2.

How that reconciles with the fact that Pyra and Mythra both manifest separately with a physical crystal in the end, the game chose not to explain.

and we know Riku doesn't age. People have taken these explanations together to mean that if you were brought in "as is" you are aging at the rate of Alrest and Bionis (which from X3 we know is a single moment, "endless now" and all that). This is how Rex and Shulk and Panacea and Linka are still kickin' by the time of Future Redeemed.

Apologies if I missed something by not seeing all the dialogue yet, but the reason for Riku not aging isn't really cut and dry. Burrburr also doesn't age. Are we taking him to be in the same boat as Shulk and co? His presence there would be hard to explain. It might just be a weird Nopon thing, except Nopon do seem to age, so... it's all rather mushy.

You'd think there'd be something about Panacea and Linka not growing old in the City records. Two houses being founded by effectively immortal beings seems like it'd be... significant. I personally never got the impression they were going to hang around young forever like everyone else seems to.

In fact, it seems unlikely to me that Liberators have been around since the start of Aionios. We have no record of Shulk and Rex before the initial clash with Alpha somewhere over ten years prior to FC - and in that encounter, they're visibly less aged. Couple that with Shulk allegedly raising Panacea as his own, and unless I'm just being really dense about something, I believe they are aging at a regular rate.

Which just makes it all the more frustrating that the game kinda gives a general handwavey fate explanation for them. I only just got that dialogue while making this post, and it's less specific than y'all made it sound (seriously - where are y'all pulling the stuff about being close to Origin's creation mattering from? Linka says nothing remotely of the sort). They kinda just... show up, for no discernable reason.

When the game first started talking about Alpha, I started to theorize that Z actually brought Shulk and Rex into play to help fight against a common threat, which could've been an interesting explanation if done right imo. But instead we kinda didn't get much of one at all.

 

[Deleted member 2]

Eh?
Pnemua and the core crystal are one and the same thing. The crystal in Rex and Pyra/Mythra's chest IS the processor, and it's what Rex resonates with at the end of 2.

I always figured the actual processor disappeared up into the pillar of light from Rex's hand and fucked off with the Conduit, and that the cores on Pyra and Mythra's chests were symbolic, sort of vestigial relics, rather than literally meaning there are now two Pneumas.

How that reconciles with the fact that Pyra and Mythra both manifest separately with a physical crystal in the end, the game chose not to explain.

All we know is that it doesn't reconcile. An inconsistency isn't invalidated as evidence against something just because it isn't explained. I think we can both agree that there wasn't any evidence of Pneuma existing in her pre-XC2 sacrifice state as a working, functioning Trinity Processor, before Future Connected.

 

[Deleted member 2]

When we go inside of Origin at the end of the main game we see that a large part of the interior is filled with giant versions of core crystals, so we can assume that the people stored within aren’t just memories - they’re very much wholly alive, in the same way that a blade whose owner dies in Alrest isn’t dead or cloned when they return to their core crystal and are reborn.

Okay, I think it's interesting you say this, because a crucial thematic component of 2 is based around the fact that, essentially, for all intents and purposes, Blades do die. Their current life ends, and their memories and experiences stop and do not continue. Each subsequent resonation is, effectively, an entirely new life where their personality is partially influenced by their new Driver, and partially informed by all the data received at that point. When a Blade dies and resonates with another Driver, it retains zero memories of its past life and is reverted back to its default state, plus a "firmware update". This is why Brighid keeps her journal, and why Roc is so oblivious to Vandham's existence that it makes everyone uncomfortable.

Also, keep in mind that core crystals, in Xenoblade 2, are computers that send data back to the Trinity Processor between resonances. Blades, however, are living beings created by the core crystals as avatars in order to interact with and gather data from those living in Alrest. It is naturally presumed then that the core crystals found in Origin are similarly computers that store each living being's data, while the characters in Aionios are similarly living beings that are avatars born from the data within those core crystals.

So when @FeiFongWong is suggesting that every single person alive died, and you point out that they were actually alive because they were contained in the core crystals, I had to say something because I feel like your exchange underlined the thematic gravity that the role core crystals play in the story of Xenoblade 2.

Fei is right, because yes, every person did die from a functional perspective. Their experiences and memories ended all at once when their universes collided; the people inside Aionios are, from our point of view, continuations, even though they are quite literally data copies of each person including their memories.

But you're right, too, from a more holistic perspective. If an exact copy continues on and it's indeterminable whether it's the original or a copy, and it carries the same hopes, dreams, memories, talents, personality, and trajectory as it's original, who's to say that person is not alive?

If Origin had worked correctly, after the two worlds had safely and successfully merged then the people within would have been reborn in much the same way as a blade being awoken from its crystal by a driver. The only difference is their memories would be intact because the only reason blades forgot their previous lives is due to Klaus/The Architect collecting data from their life experiences.

I don't think it was said anywhere that Blade memory loss upon death was due to said memory being sent to Klaus. As far as I can remember, and after having verified this, the data is continually accruing and being sent back to Logos and Pneuma at all times, even while the Blade is active.

 

[Mister Gideon]

Regarding Shulk, Rex and Riku’s (and Nopon in general) apparent agelessness. I initially thought that they had aged between the opening scene and when we see them introduced to Mathew and company, but looking again they haven’t. Shulk’s hair has grown and they both have the same effect around their eyes that N has, just a visual representation that they’ve been around for a very long time. Rowland Deschain’s eyes.

There’s a couple of things that point towards a potential answer - it’s mentioned that some people weren’t taken into Origin when the worlds merged, it would seem Shulk, Rex and the Nopon are amongst those people. We see that anything not native to Aionios is kind of frozen in time in its current state - the broken parts of the bodies of the titans literally suspended in mid air and the image of a tsunami wave stopped mid crest are good visual evidence of this.

We also know that both the founding Liberators and the Nopon/Nopon caravans are subject to some kind of set of rules, or are bound by some kind of agreement. In the base game we understand that part of the Nopon Caravans’ rules are that they’re not allowed to interfere with the war between Agnes and Keves, and going by what A says it seems that Shulk and Rex are bound by similar rules.

It seems to me like anything and anyone brought into Aionios without having been stored away in Origin doesn’t age, and is allowed (in a pact with Origin’s collective consciousness/Z?) to remain outside of the cycle provided they don’t interfere. It actually lends weight to Riku’s claim that he’s a common variety Nopon - from his perspective he absolutely is, there’s nothing special about him, his longevity is just what happens to people like him from the old worlds.

 

[Mr.Fletcher]

I always thought this was an unspoken monologue from Jin, not actually said to Gramps.

I’m talking about this scene…



I love how this infers that Jin has always been a blade who forms strong connections to those he bonds with.

I also really like the hint that not wanting to let go of that connection is part of Jin’s character through time and not just unique to this incarnation.

Earlier in the expansion he reads his old diary (can’t remember if this is depicted in full in the DLC or is in the base game), questioning who he really is.

This scene is part of that answer. It’s also a great little nod to Jin and Gramps being friends in a past life.

It’s that kind of stuff that really helps flesh out and broaden his character, without touching the main game or recontexulaising his actions.

I think N is arguably the best character in XC3. And giving him a more sympathetic slant in the DLC is fine. The idea that his attack on the City isn’t quite as it seemed, is fine - though it comes across that way because we’re flat out not shown the most significant event in that attack. But again, that’s fine.

However, I think making him a multi-universe saviour, who fought alongside Rex and Shulk, and was they key to unlocking the full ouroboros power is a touch much.

And while it’s perfectly understandable why this wasn’t brought up in the main game, it’s not even alluded to.

Imagine if during the fight at the castle, N said ‘I never should have helped unleash that power’ - and then this DLC was the payoff. We’d all be saying, that‘s brilliant.

But for me, I think this is one of those examples where Torna and XC2 feel like one story, while XC3 and FR feels like two distinct, but connected stories. The latter components don’t quite dovetail into each other with the same elegance.

 

[Renmazuo]

A and Rex speak of both Logos ans Pneuma as if they aren't around anymore. I view that as confirmation that Pyra/Mythra were no longer operating as it anymore after the events of 2, something that many people already assumed anyway.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Apologies if I missed something by not seeing all the dialogue yet, but the reason for Riku not aging isn't really cut and dry. Burrburr also doesn't age. Are we taking him to be in the same boat as Shulk and co? His presence there would be hard to explain. It might just be a weird Nopon thing, except Nopon do seem to age, so... it's all rather mushy.

You'd think there'd be something about Panacea and Linka not growing old in the City records. Two houses being founded by effectively immortal beings seems like it'd be... significant. I personally never got the impression they were going to hang around young forever like everyone else seems to.

In fact, it seems unlikely to me that Liberators have been around since the start of Aionios. We have no record of Shulk and Rex before the initial clash with Alpha somewhere over ten years prior to FC - and in that encounter, they're visibly less aged. Couple that with Shulk allegedly raising Panacea as his own, and unless I'm just being really dense about something, I believe they are aging at a regular rate.

Which just makes it all the more frustrating that the game kinda gives a general handwavey fate explanation for them. I only just got that dialogue while making this post, and it's less specific than y'all made it sound (seriously - where are y'all pulling the stuff about being close to Origin's creation mattering from? Linka says nothing remotely of the sort). They kinda just... show up, for no discernable reason.

When the game first started talking about Alpha, I started to theorize that Z actually brought Shulk and Rex into play to help fight against a common threat, which could've been an interesting explanation if done right imo. But instead we kinda didn't get much of one at all.

It's pretty explicit that the records of the founders aren't great and have been, to some degree, intentionally manipulated (at least to hide Riku). The founders have been fully mythologized by the time the main game takes place, known mostly via fiction, and it's perhaps not unrelated that Linka and Panacea aren't depicted directly in their statues, choosing to show Shulk and Rex instead. If they wanted to keep that detail under wraps, they probably could have. With the City being at war with Moebius, they may not have even had to try to hide it.

Alternatively, it might just be common knowledge in the City that people from before Aionios just don't age, and it's never brought up, since one of the other Nopon smiths is in their employ.

Either way, from the details we're given, characters outside of the flow that weren't born in Aionios are consistently depicted as not aging (including the Queens, High Entia don't live that long, and even the perfect flesh eater, Jin, is depicted as having his health begin to deteriorate after 500 years). Aside from Riku, who's in hiding, all the characters I can think of that we know are immortal are listed as ageless in the affinity chart, including Burrburr.

A and Rex speak of both Logos ans Pneuma as if they aren't around anymore. I view that as confirmation that Pyra/Mythra were no longer operating as it anymore after the events of 2, something that many people already assumed anyway.

It's not impossible that they just can't manifest outside of their core in Aionios for some reason, especially when Alpha, who is in the driver's seat, needs to use an avatar to fully manifest.

 

[Aleh]

Okay, I think it's interesting you say this, because a crucial thematic component of 2 is based around the fact that, essentially, for all intents and purposes, Blades do die. Their current life ends, and their memories and experiences stop and do not continue. Each subsequent resonation is, effectively, an entirely new life where their personality is partially influenced by their new Driver, and partially informed by all the data received at that point. When a Blade dies and resonates with another Driver, it retains zero memories of its past life and is reverted back to its default state, plus a "firmware update". This is why Brighid keeps her journal, and why Roc is so oblivious to Vandham's existence that it makes everyone uncomfortable.

Also, keep in mind that core crystals, in Xenoblade 2, are computers that send data back to the Trinity Processor between resonances. Blades, however, are living beings created by the core crystals as avatars in order to interact with and gather data from those living in Alrest. It is naturally presumed then that the core crystals found in Origin are similarly computers that store each living being's data, while the characters in Aionios are similarly living beings that are avatars born from the data within those core crystals.

So when @FeiFongWong is suggesting that every single person alive died, and you point out that they were actually alive because they were contained in the core crystals, I had to say something because I feel like your exchange underlined the thematic gravity that the role core crystals play in the story of Xenoblade 2.

Fei is right, because yes, every person did die from a functional perspective. Their experiences and memories ended all at once when their universes collided; the people inside Aionios are, from our point of view, continuations, even though they are quite literally data copies of each person including their memories.

But you're right, too, from a more holistic perspective. If an exact copy continues on and it's indeterminable whether it's the original or a copy, and it carries the same hopes, dreams, memories, talents, personality, and trajectory as it's original, who's to say that person is not alive?



I don't think it was said anywhere that Blade memory loss upon death was due to said memory being sent to Klaus. As far as I can remember, and after having verified this, the data is continually accruing and being sent back to Logos and Pneuma at all times, even while the Blade is active.

I think the difference is that they outright say Origin also contains the souls of those people, so they can effectively be considered the same people as the originals instead of just very accurate clones

 

[Mister Gideon]

Okay, I think it's interesting you say this, because a crucial thematic component of 2 is based around the fact that, essentially, for all intents and purposes, Blades do die. Their current life ends, and their memories and experiences stop and do not continue. Each subsequent resonation is, effectively, an entirely new life where their personality is partially influenced by their new Driver, and partially informed by all the data received at that point. When a Blade dies and resonates with another Driver, it retains zero memories of its past life and is reverted back to its default state, plus a "firmware update". This is why Brighid keeps her journal, and why Roc is so oblivious to Vandham's existence that it makes everyone uncomfortable.

Also, keep in mind that core crystals, in Xenoblade 2, are computers that send data back to the Trinity Processor between resonances. Blades, however, are living beings created by the core crystals as avatars in order to interact with and gather data from those living in Alrest. It is naturally presumed then that the core crystals found in Origin are similarly computers that store each living being's data, while the characters in Aionios are similarly living beings that are avatars born from the data within those core crystals.

So when @FeiFongWong is suggesting that every single person alive died, and you point out that they were actually alive because they were contained in the core crystals, I had to say something because I feel like your exchange underlined the thematic gravity that the role core crystals play in the story of Xenoblade 2.

Fei is right, because yes, every person did die from a functional perspective. Their experiences and memories ended all at once when their universes collided; the people inside Aionios are, from our point of view, continuations, even though they are quite literally data copies of each person including their memories.

But you're right, too, from a more holistic perspective. If an exact copy continues on and it's indeterminable whether it's the original or a copy, and it carries the same hopes, dreams, memories, talents, personality, and trajectory as it's original, who's to say that person is not alive?



I don't think it was said anywhere that Blade memory loss upon death was due to said memory being sent to Klaus. As far as I can remember, and after having verified this, the data is continually accruing and being sent back to Logos and Pneuma at all times, even while the Blade is active.

Both blades and humans within Alrest make a distinction between human death and what happens to a blade when their driver dies. They don’t call it death, they say they ‘returned to their core crystal’. When a driver resonates with a blade, that blade isn’t being reborn or reincarnated, it’s being ‘awoken’. Blades don’t fear death, but lament the inevitable loss of memory. While the game is littered with examples of the distinction between human death and blades returning to their crystals Lora’s dialogue on her deathbed sums this up quite well: “Don’t worry… if I die… you’ll just go to sleep. Someone will find you… reawaken you… someday. For us humans… being forgotten is a much worse fate than death.”

I mean we could go around in circles debating whether or not something like Star Trek’s transporters are actually killing the people they beam up and rebuilding a new person out of the same components and whether core crystals are doing the same to their blades, but the core (heh) of the matter is this; the people within that world, blades included, don’t consider returning to their core to be the same thing as death.

 

[FeiFongWong]

The ending heavily implies that blade and saga happen in the same universe. Takahashi said that after finishing the game we should know what the future of the series will be. I don't think they would tease people and not followup it with anything substantial. It was interesting to see in feb that bandai is remastering baten kaitos and not the more popular xenosaga. Maybe they signed up an agreement with nintendo and Monolith is remaking it properly? It would be crazy if they could make all of the games with the same graphical style and similar combat.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Hmm, so Enel's recent video pointed out a detail I didn't realize, which was the Japanese name for the "Saviorites" in Xenoblade is actually the same as the "Salvators" from Xenosaga. That's not an insignificant detail, given the name that they used. I still think that they're just going to loosely adapt some things, since the timeline seems a bit funky, but it does give me some pause.

 

[Renmazuo]

But for me, I think this is one of those examples where Torna and XC2 feel like one story, while XC3 and FR feels like two distinct, but connected stories. The latter components don’t quite dovetail into each other with the same elegance.

Nah, I also have to disagree with this. I don't want to start a "Is FR better than Torna?" conversation, but both methods have clear advantages over the other.

First of all I don't think Torna fits as flawlessly as you make it sound. I clearly remember that one of my biggest disappointments with it was how the scope of the Aegis War had been blatantly reduced from what was presented in the main game on multiple occasions just to make it fit. Certain scenes are also forced in a very unnatural way, most obviously the parts where Hugo and Aegaeon have to leave your party for some contrived reason I don't even remember, simply because that's what the base game presented. The third one (though this is arguably not a flaw) is that you played it knowing exactly what to expect, you got reinforcement and elaboration on certain things sure, but not anything new that was going to change your perspective on anything.

In contrast FR presents you with a tale that is grander than what people originally envisioned, it's free to follow its own flow because it doesn't have that much to adhere to and surprises you with a new story, new info, new revelations, etc. And yeah, I do wish they had done a better job of balancing these things with the base game but to be frank now that I've played both I find myself not caring as much. I appreciate and enjoyed what they did here.

Hmm, so Enel's recent video pointed out a detail I didn't realize, which was the Japanese name for the "Saviorites" in Xenoblade is actually the same as the "Salvators" from Xenosaga. That's not an insignificant detail, given the name that they used. I still think that they're just going to loosely adapt some things, since the timeline seems a bit funky, but it does give me some pause.

I thought that was common knowledge lol. But yeah, Saviorites have always been Salvator in the original script, ever since 2.

 

[FeiFongWong]

Today Im giddy like a child getting a candy haha. Just the thought of Takahashi coming back to Saga and making it 6 part story like originally planned makes me smile. They could make a 3 part xenosaga reimagining with a more action based system instead of turned based. The series would end the same way like the original and (now) xenoblade 3 dlc and then they would continue it with XENOVERSE joining blade and saga together . Man... screw X, gimme Saga

 

[Mr.Fletcher]

Nah, I also have to disagree with this. I don't want to start a "Is FR better than Torna?" conversation, but both methods have clear advantages over the other.

First of all I don't think Torna fits as flawlessly as you make it sound. I clearly remember that one of my biggest disappointments with it was how the scope of the Aegis War had been blatantly reduced from what was presented in the main game on multiple occasions just to make it fit. Certain scenes are also forced in a very unnatural way, most obviously the parts where Hugo and Aegaeon have to leave your party for some contrived reason I don't even remember, simply because that's what the base game presented. The third one (though this is arguably not a flaw) is that you played it knowing exactly what to expect, you got reinforcement and elaboration on certain things sure, but not anything new that was going to change your perspective on anything.

In contrast FR presents you with a tale that is grander than what people originally envisioned, it's free to follow its own flow because it doesn't have that much to adhere to and surprises you with a new story, new info, new revelations, etc. And yeah, I do wish they had done a better job of balancing these things with the base game but to be frank now that I've played both I find myself not caring as much. I appreciate and enjoyed what they did here.

To be fair, I didn't say it was flawless. But look, I think we just have different opinions. I respect yours for sure. I just don't have it in me to write another huge post.

I'm happy it worked more for you than it did for me.

 

[BradenAndEggs]

Today Im giddy like a child getting a candy haha. Just the thought of Takahashi coming back to Saga and making it 6 part story like originally planned makes me smile. They could make a 3 part xenosaga reimagining with a more action based system instead of turned based. The series would end the same way like the original and (now) xenoblade 3 dlc and then they would continue it with XENOVERSE joining blade and saga together . Man... screw X, gimme Saga

The events of Xenoblade being the reason Earth is "lost" in Saga sounds so incredible, but I'm sure there's timeline/story detail wonkiness.

I'm sure any rerelease/reboot/sequel would adjust the details enough to make it work. Sounds exciting.

I'll admit I haven't played any Xeno games outside of Blade, but the idea of playing through (or at least watching through) Gears and reading through Perfect Works may be a way to alleviate my post-Xenoblade depression...

 

[Homura]

I think the Xenosaga/Xenogears references are literally opposite of teases for the future. They were all mentioned in the "perfect" world Na'el saw, the prior world where everything was apparently flawless and happy... But that's exactly the point. It wasn't.
Clinging to the past too much isn't healthy, the past memories and nostalgia may appear better than how things are now, but they still had flaws and imperfections one might not remember. Even the sweet past wasn't perfect. You have to let the past go, keeping it yes in your heart, but still watch and look forward to the future.

Takahashi incorporated these references in that moment to express that, while he will always remember and cherish his previous works (Perfect Works), it is now time to move on. Time to move on to a new, unknown future.
He's saying goodbye to Xenosaga/Xenogears.

Obviously, that's just my interpretation.

 

[Renmazuo]

I think the Xenosaga/Xenogears references are literally opposite of teases for the future. They were all mentioned in the "perfect" world Na'el saw, the prior world where everything was apparently flawless and happy... But that's exactly the point. It wasn't.
Clinging to the past too much isn't healthy, the past memories and nostalgia may appear better than how things are now, but they still had flaws and imperfections one might not remember. Even the sweet past wasn't perfect. You have to let the past go, keeping it yes in your heart, but still watch and look forward to the future.

Takahashi incorporated these references in that moment to express that, while he will always remember and cherish his previous works (Perfect Works), it is now time to move on. Time to move on to a new, unknown future.
He's saying goodbye to Xenosaga/Xenogears.

Obviously, that's just my interpretation.

I've seen some posts like this on other places so don't take this is a personal accusation against you in particular or anything, just something I've been meaning to ask: does that mean Takahashi is also saying goodbye to X?

 

[BradenAndEggs]

He's saying goodbye to Xenosaga/Xenogears.

Sure, and I also thought that was the point of Noah throwing the sword at the end of 3.

Right afterword, however, the post-credits scene appears to reference the end of Xenosaga 3 (From what I've been told. I never played Saga lol) it seems like a pointed reference to be made if the themes and ideas from Gears and Saga are done.

That, and one of the ideas of Future Redeemed is that completely abandoning the past for the sake of progress isn't always the right decision.

 

[FeiFongWong]

I think the Xenosaga/Xenogears references are literally opposite of teases for the future. They were all mentioned in the "perfect" world Na'el saw, the prior world where everything was apparently flawless and happy... But that's exactly the point. It wasn't.
Clinging to the past too much isn't healthy, the past memories and nostalgia may appear better than how things are now, but they still had flaws and imperfections one might not remember. Even the sweet past wasn't perfect. You have to let the past go, keeping it yes in your heart, but still watch and look forward to the future.

Takahashi incorporated these references in that moment to express that, while he will always remember and cherish his previous works (Perfect Works), it is now time to move on. Time to move on to a new, unknown future.
He's saying goodbye to Xenosaga/Xenogears.

Obviously, that's just my interpretation.

That's very deep and inteligent interpretation but... how many people would come to the same conclusion? After Takahashi's interview people expect something really steering us in the right direction. Remember that the scene in which kos-mos is supposedly falling on the Earth is after credits, after the scene with Na'el.

 

[Homura]

I've seen some posts like this on other places so don't take this is a personal accusation against you in particular or anything, just something I've been meaning to ask: does that mean Takahashi is also saying goodbye to X?

I don't think so?
While Gears and Saga fit my interpretation because Perfect Works has been in Takahashi's mind for over two decades, X is way more recent and is even part of Xenoblade brand. I haven't played the game, but I heard it ends on a cliffhanger, which probably means they have plans to continue it.

And the blue light in the post-credits scene might be a X tease instead. We don't know exactly what it is.

 

[Renmazuo]

I don't think so?
While Gears and Saga fit my interpretation because Perfect Works has been in Takahashi's mind for over two decades, X is way more recent and is even part of Xenoblade brand. I haven't played the game, but I heard it ends on a cliffhanger, which probably means they have plans to continue it.

And the blue light in the post-credits scene might be a X tease instead. We don't know exactly what it is.

Right, right, I don't think so either. I also briefly considered the same thing you explained in your post. But the thing is, the radio in Na'el's "perfect" world is also peppered with X references. In my mind it's very hard to reconcile some of them having one meaning, and others having the complete opposite meaning, when they are both presented in the same manner, in the same scene. Does that make sense? In my mind, it all has to be one complete package, so to speak, regardless of what it means.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Today Im giddy like a child getting a candy haha. Just the thought of Takahashi coming back to Saga and making it 6 part story like originally planned makes me smile. They could make a 3 part xenosaga reimagining with a more action based system instead of turned based. The series would end the same way like the original and (now) xenoblade 3 dlc and then they would continue it with XENOVERSE joining blade and saga together . Man... screw X, gimme Saga

Takahashi is already 56 years old, he probably has one three part saga left in him before he wants to retire, given each part will be roughly 4 years to make, not that they can't continue it after without him, but I don't see it happening.

 

[FeiFongWong]

Takahashi is already 56 years old, he probably has one three part saga left in him before he wants to retire, given each part will be roughly 4 years to make, not that they can't continue it after without him, but I don't see it happening.

He still has a lot of life in him, he's only 56 If they really want to connect the series he already has an idea how to mix everything together.

 

[Renmazuo]

Takahashi is already 56 years old, he probably has one three part saga left in him before he wants to retire, given each part will be roughly 4 years to make, not that they can't continue it after without him, but I don't see it happening.

I wonder about that...

Spoiler

 

[BradenAndEggs]

He's still has a lot of life in him, he's only 56 If they really want to connect the series he already has an idea how to mix everything together.

Based on the radio dump, it appears he does.

I'm not exactly expecting a literal "Xenosaga 4" or really even X again, but maybe a remix of that content to continue where Future Redeemed left off?

I wonder about that...

Spoiler

 

[FeiFongWong]

Either way xenosaga has to be coming back, either as a simple upres done by bandai or something more sophisticated done by monolith. Capcom has seen huge success with reimagining resident evil, so I think other companies took notice. Its much easie to create a game when you have story laid out and designs of characters and locations. Xenosaga is really old now and not many people have played it anyway. It deserves another chance. I teared up just thinking about Shion, Kos-Mos, Ziggy or Chaos coming back.

 

[The Giant]

Monolithsoft really wants to get back into working on Xenosaga?

 

[Aleh]

Alpha = copyright law
Matthew = Takahashi
The lives of the soldiers = past Xeno series
The people of the city = Xenoblade

 

[Arynio]

Regarding Shulk, Rex and Riku’s (and Nopon in general) apparent agelessness. I initially thought that they had aged between the opening scene and when we see them introduced to Mathew and company, but looking again they haven’t. Shulk’s hair has grown and they both have the same effect around their eyes that N has, just a visual representation that they’ve been around for a very long time. Rowland Deschain’s eyes.

There’s a couple of things that point towards a potential answer - it’s mentioned that some people weren’t taken into Origin when the worlds merged, it would seem Shulk, Rex and the Nopon are amongst those people. We see that anything not native to Aionios is kind of frozen in time in its current state - the broken parts of the bodies of the titans literally suspended in mid air and the image of a tsunami wave stopped mid crest are good visual evidence of this.

We also know that both the founding Liberators and the Nopon/Nopon caravans are subject to some kind of set of rules, or are bound by some kind of agreement. In the base game we understand that part of the Nopon Caravans’ rules are that they’re not allowed to interfere with the war between Agnes and Keves, and going by what A says it seems that Shulk and Rex are bound by similar rules.

It seems to me like anything and anyone brought into Aionios without having been stored away in Origin doesn’t age, and is allowed (in a pact with Origin’s collective consciousness/Z?) to remain outside of the cycle provided they don’t interfere. It actually lends weight to Riku’s claim that he’s a common variety Nopon - from his perspective he absolutely is, there’s nothing special about him, his longevity is just what happens to people like him from the old worlds.

Very interesting thoughts.

I think everyone's recorded inside Origin, though. Otherwise, how could they even be in Aionios? But there's probably (at least) two types of data: i) the average person, dormant in a core crystal inside Origin (mostly everyone, including the kids brought into the cycle), and ii) certain people which for some reason can appear in Aionios using an avatar, and which don't age (Melia, Nia, Shulk, Rex, Riku, etc.).

I guess the inhabitants of the City would constitute a third group if they are indeed recorded in Origin after their deaths.

 

[EtherPenguin]

I'll admit I haven't played any Xeno games outside of Blade, but the idea of playing through (or at least watching through) Gears and reading through Perfect Works may be a way to alleviate my post-Xenoblade depression...

Before going into Perfect Works, you should know it's not quite the deep lore bible people hype it up to be. The whole six episode plan people always talk about regarding PW is only two pages and it's mostly just describing the different time periods seen within Xenogears as different episodes. The rest of the book is a materials/art book for Xenogears. Pretty much the equivalent of Secret Files - Monado Archives, Art of Mira, or Alrest Records. Still an interesting companion piece to Xenogears, I like how they give little bios for all the enemy types.

 

[Mister Gideon]

Watching a number of popular Xeno YouTubers tie themselves in knots to dismiss Lore Radio’s X references while extolling how vital and important to the series the Saga references are is really kind of weird to see.