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Discussion Socialism Discussion Thread

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Mekanos said:


So much of my radicalization involved realizing that Obama really didn't do shit to make the world a better place.
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Mine (from a multi-party politics background in Canada) was the cynical way in which a voting system ensures that conservatives are able to win power to keep centrists relevant and how no one who gets that power wants to reform electoralism, despite knowing how dysfunctional it was for multi-party democracies as far back as the 1920s.

It's why, despite having little faith in the shape of parliamentary democracy, I bang so hard on the electoral reform drum; to give even the remote opportunity that people can see better things are possible, because my radicalization was so dependent on realizing that our world is designed so it never can as much as possible.
 
Mekanos said:
So much of my radicalization involved realizing that Obama really didn't do shit to make the world a better place.
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Honestly, this is the reason why I think all social democrats, democratic socialists and other leftists need to vote for the Democratic candidate for president every time. And probably for senators as well. (Here in Canada, it's a bit more complicated.) I think we need to make it clear that these people are failures. That these people won't deliver what we need. That we need more direct action.

So, voting for Democrats accomplishes these things, in my mind:
  • Raising class consciousness and how the establishment parties won't help, or won't go far enough. Whenever Bush or Trump is elected, people think Obama, or Clinton, or Biden will save us.
  • Mobilize more leftist and social democrats to primary and pull the party left. It will only be marginal, but the more allies on the inside, the better.
  • Piss people off to actually do more direct democracy.
  • Has the added benefit of stopping the Republicans from ruining this country as fast. Biden has put some brakes on that. And has done some really good things. The infrastructure bill is a big win in the American context, as much as it falls short. The 1600+400 is a big thing for American, even though it falls short. Things they would not have gotten with Republicans.
We cannot rest of electoral democracy. But I also don't think we can do without it, either.
 
Shawndroid said:
Has the added benefit of stopping the Republicans from ruining this country as fast. Biden has put some brakes on that
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Don't agree with this at all. It's full steam ahead but with no eyes on what's happening. Immigration, foreign affairs, policing, covid response. All the same or worse as what Trump was doing but nobody talks about it.

Easy comparison would be to imagine how a news story like "the White House is adamant on resuming student loan payments to solidify the narrative that the economy is booming" would go over under Trump vs how it is going under Biden.

It also worse for getting progressives elected because people check out in local elections. We're going to get a republican house in a year.
 
So you think Biden is more right wing than Trump and the Republicans? More right wing than Manchin or Sinema?

But to be fair, pretty much all lefties and centre-left people, with the possible exception of sometimes Jon Stewart, were asleep during the Obama years. I think we are doing really well in criticizing Democrats now on social media. That's a good thing.
 
Shawndroid said:
So you think Biden is more right wing than Trump and the Republicans? More right wing than Manchin or Sinema?

But to be fair, pretty much all lefties and centre-left people, with the possible exception of sometimes Jon Stewart, were asleep during the Obama years. I think we are doing really well in criticizing Democrats now on social media. That's a good thing.
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It's a good thing sure, but it doesn't matter. It can't matter. They're all just working to keep the empire running and personally enrich themselves, and they have no reason to stop doing that because the other guy will always seem worse.

Extremely popular policies aren't enacted because it would hurt the personal bank account of politicians. They don't care what the people want because they have no reason to care, no accountibility. Even if they get voted out, they can get more money from fundraising. They don't even need to win!

Biden is extremely right wing and is responsible directly for most of the problems the country is facing right now due his time in the senate. More important though than his own personal politics (because invidivisual politics of a president don't matter, the machinery that keeps the country running can't be stopped by one man) is how the people/media respond to it. Things that were stopped due to backlash under Trump continue unhindered under Biden.
 
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Shawndroid said:
Honestly, this is the reason why I think all social democrats, democratic socialists and other leftists need to vote for the Democratic candidate for president every time. And probably for senators as well. (Here in Canada, it's a bit more complicated.) I think we need to make it clear that these people are failures. That these people won't deliver what we need. That we need more direct action.

So, voting for Democrats accomplishes these things, in my mind:
  • Raising class consciousness and how the establishment parties won't help, or won't go far enough. Whenever Bush or Trump is elected, people think Obama, or Clinton, or Biden will save us.
  • Mobilize more leftist and social democrats to primary and pull the party left. It will only be marginal, but the more allies on the inside, the better.
  • Piss people off to actually do more direct democracy.
  • Has the added benefit of stopping the Republicans from ruining this country as fast. Biden has put some brakes on that. And has done some really good things. The infrastructure bill is a big win in the American context, as much as it falls short. The 1600+400 is a big thing for American, even though it falls short. Things they would not have gotten with Republicans.
We cannot rest of electoral democracy. But I also don't think we can do without it, either.
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Ah yes, rewarding the party for its failures, what a great strategy!
 
Shawndroid said:
Honestly, this is the reason why I think all social democrats, democratic socialists and other leftists need to vote for the Democratic candidate for president every time. And probably for senators as well. (Here in Canada, it's a bit more complicated.) I think we need to make it clear that these people are failures. That these people won't deliver what we need. That we need more direct action.

So, voting for Democrats accomplishes these things, in my mind:
  • Raising class consciousness and how the establishment parties won't help, or won't go far enough. Whenever Bush or Trump is elected, people think Obama, or Clinton, or Biden will save us.
  • Mobilize more leftist and social democrats to primary and pull the party left. It will only be marginal, but the more allies on the inside, the better.
  • Piss people off to actually do more direct democracy.
  • Has the added benefit of stopping the Republicans from ruining this country as fast. Biden has put some brakes on that. And has done some really good things. The infrastructure bill is a big win in the American context, as much as it falls short. The 1600+400 is a big thing for American, even though it falls short. Things they would not have gotten with Republicans.
We cannot rest of electoral democracy. But I also don't think we can do without it, either.
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  • You can raise class consciousness without voting for dems. Voting for dems only enables the status quo which has no class consciousness.
  • The problem with that is once your in the system, you get pulled right because they have all the power and influence so if you wanna do anything legislatively, you gotta sign onto to doing right wing plans which lowers the amount of power you have. And lets not forget the libs constantly sniping at you and also pressuring you to vote with any bullshit put in front of your face even though it only helps them and doesn't help you or push leftist ideas.
  • Again don't need to vote for dems to do this
  • Biden is pushing right wing idea tho? Still has kids in cages, still has the same foreign policy, refuses to waive student loan debt even tho he could do it, refuses to do anything on the supreme court justices. He even said he was against packing the court. Also his support in past for crime bill, against desegregation schools, was friends with a slave owner and eulogized him when he died. As a person of color, he does not inspire a lot of confidence. Personally, i appreciate the pols who tell me they are a racist then ones who say they aren't and then turn around and support racist policies.
  • Electoral democracy doesn't even work. How many gerrymandered districts do you need to see before you realize the entire thing is a farce. Also, dems could've done something about voting rights legislation and they let it die. Shows how much they care about preserving democracy right there. As long as they win, they don't care.
 
You are all saying a lot of things I agree with as though I disagree with them.
gogosox82 said:
  • Electoral democracy doesn't even work. How many gerrymandered districts do you need to see before you realize the entire thing is a farce. Also, dems could've done something about voting rights legislation and they let it die. Shows how much they care about preserving democracy right there. As long as they win, they don't care.
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Gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement happen because voting does affect things, and that scares them. Otherwise, you wouldn't have to do that.

And the alternative to rewarding Democrats for their right-wing-lite policies is... reward republicans for they right-wing-rich policies. That would just be worse. And I can about slowing the descent.

As for it's possible without elected Democrats... I disagree! Why? Because whenever Republicans are in office people say 'if only we had elected Hilary.' As long as they are scared and believe the democrats will save them, they will do nothing but bicker about voting Biden.

And all the things you can do without the Democrats being in office, you can do WITH them being in office. Activism was up at the end of Obama, wasn't it? But people focused on electoralism under Trump. The failure of the Democrats is what wakes people up. The treat of fascism put them to sleep.

As long as Republicans keep making the country worse, too many people will wait for the Democrats to save them.
 
Shawndroid said:
You are all saying a lot of things I agree with as though I disagree with them.

Gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement happen because voting does affect things, and that scares them. Otherwise, you wouldn't have to do that.

And the alternative to rewarding Democrats for their right-wing-lite policies is... reward republicans for they right-wing-rich policies. That would just be worse. And I can about slowing the descent.

As for it's possible without elected Democrats... I disagree! Why? Because whenever Republicans are in office people say 'if only we had elected Hilary.' As long as they are scared and believe the democrats will save them, they will do nothing but bicker about voting Biden.

And all the things you can do without the Democrats being in office, you can do WITH them being in office. Activism was up at the end of Obama, wasn't it? But people focused on electoralism under Trump. The failure of the Democrats is what wakes people up. The treat of fascism put them to sleep.

As long as Republicans keep making the country worse, too many people will wait for the Democrats to save them.
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And democrats have done nothing to stop it. As long as they win, they dont care about voting rights and they gerrymander just as much as republicans do. Go look at a map of Maryland and tell me that state, which run by dems, isn't gerrymandered to hell and back.

Theres no difference. Right wing policies are right wing policies. Means testing, which is what dems love to implement, is a republican idea. ACA, republican idea. Cap and trade, republican idea. etc i could go on and on. These idea do not curb right wing ideas because the very concept is right wing and then it allows for more right wing ideas to be implemented.

People who say 'If only we elected Hillary' i do not view as activists. just liberals who are mad they lost to Trump. As soon as Biden gets elected they are done being activists when in reality your job should start when Biden gets elected because you have to ensure that he actually passes what he said he would pass. The fact that they went 'back to brunch' is not all surprising to me since they are not really activists, just liberals who were mad they lost to Trump.

Activism was non existent for most of Obama's presidency. Only went up during election time.

And Democrats do nothing to combat it. Can't even get rid of the filibuster. If your not part of the solution you are part of the problem as far as im concerned. Democrats have offered no solutions to combat republicans so they are a part of the problem. Don't let them off the hook.
 
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Shawndroid said:
So you think Biden is more right wing than Trump and the Republicans? More right wing than Manchin or Sinema?

But to be fair, pretty much all lefties and centre-left people, with the possible exception of sometimes Jon Stewart, were asleep during the Obama years. I think we are doing really well in criticizing Democrats now on social media. That's a good thing.
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Right wing is right wing, Personally, I'm done trying to pretend someone is "better" because they have less abhorrent views relative to a fullblown facist. That's a game I'm not willing to play anymore and if that makes me too much of a radical that it causes people to stop listening to me then so be it.

Biden's government is just as right wing as Trump as far as I'm concerned considering his state department is currently in the middle of sanctioning and oppressing yet another poor Latin American country while at the same time they're trying to eternally starve Cuban and Iranian people with inhumane sanctions that Trump installed but for some reason Biden doesn't care enough to remove (because he obviously approves of them).

And let's not even get started on how he continues to increase funding for both the military and police...
 
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Yeah, after the last election I’m not even bothering with state or national elections anymore. I might still be able to keep a turd off the local school board by voting and getting the word out, but the Dems are just as complicit as the Republicans in the shitshow that is American politics. Biden has no intention of rolling back any Trump era policies and is willing to throw everything else out with a “well, we tried” shrug. This is not acceptable any more.

well, it was never acceptable, but hopefully it makes sense 😅
 
I just don't see a future for America that isn't fascism. Democrats had one last chance and they failed. My belief in America is gone. With fucked up Republicans and complacent Democrats, it sucks that America is going this way. I'll look at it all in horror from another country soon... When I look at other other countries with good social programs I think of what could have been.

I try not to be doomsday about America. I just don't see its way out of this.
 
CloverNotes said:
I just don't see a future for America that isn't fascism. Democrats had one last chance and they failed. My belief in America is gone. With fucked up Republicans and complacent Democrats, it sucks that America is going this way. I'll look at it all in horror from another country soon... When I look at other other countries with good social programs I think of what could have been.

I try not to be doomsday about America. I just don't see its way out of this.
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If it's any consolation the UK is gonna beat you to it.
 
CloverNotes said:
I just don't see a future for America that isn't fascism. Democrats had one last chance and they failed. My belief in America is gone. With fucked up Republicans and complacent Democrats, it sucks that America is going this way. I'll look at it all in horror from another country soon... When I look at other other countries with good social programs I think of what could have been.

I try not to be doomsday about America. I just don't see its way out of this.
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If America succumbs to irreversible fascism there won't be many countries you can escape it from, honestly.
 
CloverNotes said:
I just don't see a future for America that isn't fascism. Democrats had one last chance and they failed. My belief in America is gone. With fucked up Republicans and complacent Democrats, it sucks that America is going this way. I'll look at it all in horror from another country soon... When I look at other other countries with good social programs I think of what could have been.

I try not to be doomsday about America. I just don't see its way out of this.
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The end of empire is seemingly always ugly like this. Americans are going to be (finally) forced to choose between empire and human dignity in a not-at-all-abstract way, because those 2 things have always been in diametric opposition, despite all of us being convinced that one can't exist without the other since birth.
 
Mekanos said:
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yeah, I have heard about this. what was done to the farmers was unjust and just plain rotten, and the Indian government when withdrawing said laws (who made the fucking proposal to implement them in the first place) wrote a letter which read like complete BS essentially saying that the laws were great but you were not educated enough to comprehend the benefits (which ahahaha no it very much does not bring any benefits to farmers). The whole party running that country is fucking bigoted/racist and hindu nationalistic to its very core.
 
Gentle reminder that the untitled goose supports the abolition of private property.

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I don't know much about the socialist System itself but my parents were Hardcore leftists in turkey in the 80s. They where imprisoned for 6 weeks and got tortured too. That's why they fled turkey did seek asylum in Europe. So I have a close relation to the left but that's all about it. I really don't know much about socialism as a system.
 
Pagan said:
I don't know much about the socialist System itself but my parents were Hardcore leftists in turkey in the 80s. They where imprisoned for 6 weeks and got tortured too. That's why they fled turkey did seek asylum in Europe. So I have a close relation to the left but that's all about it. I really don't know much about socialism as a system.
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There's not really any single system, a lot of socialists have different beliefs on how socialism can be attained, what systemic changes need to be done to enable socialism, etc. It's a spectrum and not as simple as the "government does more stuff" like a lot of liberals and conservatives tend to believe. A lot of the theory comes from Karl Marx's Capital and the Communist Manifesto, but there are certainly many off-shoots and different theories people subscribe to.

It's hard to just recommend reading those as they're not easy reads I don't think... but if you want to start with somewhere those are the sources. State and Revolution from Lenin as well. Both are on the Marxist Internet Archive which has tons of stuff but... there's a lot hah, and a lot of it can be opposing theories too. But I think most socialists can agree that socialism will be obtained once workers control the means of production.
 
Pagan said:
I don't know much about the socialist System itself but my parents were Hardcore leftists in turkey in the 80s. They where imprisoned for 6 weeks and got tortured too. That's why they fled turkey did seek asylum in Europe. So I have a close relation to the left but that's all about it. I really don't know much about socialism as a system.
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Everything @Costa said, but I believe that the Cliff Notes version - the essence of socialism that runs through all variations - is treating the common good as our collective responsibility, to replace individualistic liberty with universal human dignity and equality with equity, opposing any inherent impediments to e achieving that goal (of which the one universally-recognized impediment to that is liberal capitalism).

Beyond that, the specifics are what defines all the variations of socialism.

Someone can feel free to add or amend if I missed something or if I’m mistaken, but that feels like the most comprehensive distillation of the things all socialism variations share in common.
 
I have always thought that political democracy was a good step forward. So when I started to get in to socialism, I realized that mostly it was about economic democracy. That is: worker control of the means of production. If democracy is so good, why wouldn't we have democracy at work?

So think about how corporations have a board of directors that tell the CEO what the company should do. The difference between capitalism and socialism is if the board is made up of representatives of rich people or representatives of the workers.
Costa said:
It's a spectrum and not as simple as the "government does more stuff" like a lot of liberals and conservatives tend to believe.
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Yeah. When doing outreach, I like to say that this is political socialism, rather than economic socialism. I think both are good directions to go in. For example, many social democracies do political socialism. But still have you working 8 hours a day at a dictatorship of the wealthy.
 
Well, well. Today the new german government will present it's plans. The Coalition from Social Democrats- Greens and Liberals is called Ampel ( Red- Green- Yellow).

What we know so far sounds like a step forward, maybe not a big step, but much better than CDU with Merkel. More focus on social, ecology and education instead of economy only. We will see.

Our new chancellor will be "Olaf Scholz." Greens will have the vice- chancellor position.
 
Unrelated to the topic at hand but there's been this ROM hack of Super Mario World passing around that looks really cool! It's Kaizo-styled so probably not a great play if you're not into those kind of hacks like myself, but I do like watching streamers like GrandPooBear play through them as he's great at them (and a fun watch as always).

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It's called Super "Sonic Saves The World" World. Allegedly made by Maddy Thorson of Celeste fame, allegedly. But probably not. The graphics are very cute, the Sonic sprite in particular is very well done for a Mario-styled game. Each level is basically a cohesive experience with its own little story to tell. One of my favourites so far is called Life on Mars where you play as an Uber delivery person who has to deliver cold pasta to the Supreme Leader of the Libertarian Utopian city. But the twist is that you're actually an agent of Justice ready to defeat the evil Supreme Leader, who definitely doesn't look like any space billionaire that we all know and love.

sMs447T.png


It's a cool game but not one you can actually download and play. The alleged creator wishes for it to be "shareware" in that it's meant to be shared amonst people and never uploaded to a hub anywhere. Not sure how long that will actually last but I do like the idea. Even then though, it's probably best to watch a playthrough like the one I linked anyway, hah. Much more entertaining I imagine. But this alleged creator of this hack definitely knows their level design, that's for sure! And plus its nice to see such a well-done hack get huge views from someone like GPB.

7qxYcVE.png
 
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We lost a True Comrade 162 years ago today, when radical abolitionist John Brown was executed for treason by the state of Virginia in 1859. His life was fully dedicated to the cause of abolishing slavery and he led multiple violent anti-slavery rebellions during the time period known as Bleeding Kansas. Eventually John led a party of abolitionists, freedmen, and local slaves to raid a federal armory in Harper's Ferry, Virginia with the objective of arming and inspiring several more slave rebellions. It was ultimately put down by the military and Brown and several co-conspirators were executed by the state of Virginia. Nevertheless, his drastic actions escalated smoldering tensions which ultimately culminated in the Civil War and (mostly) abolishment of slavery.

He also had solid friendships with Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman, he kept good company.

AX0002_JohnBrown.jpg
 
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I don't believe in the American Way. Fuck America.
 
Crenshaw owns so hard because he's obviously the GOP's attempt at recreating AOC/The Squad but its so half baked and forced, not to mention all the real dye in the wool right wingers strongly dislike him and view him as a RINO
 
Mekanos said:


lmao
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The dumbest part about this is that it's the most useless bill ever. As if there's any concern about educators not teaching people that socialism is evil.

If they think young people are being intoxicated by socialism, then the best way to prevent it is to stop presenting capitalism as the infallible best way to structure humanity, because when that lie crumbles (which it is with over-increasing frequency), of course people are going to be drawn to other options. But if you present it as an imperfect system, it promotes the idea of the imperfect world being a problem to solve and reinforces capitalism as a better system in spite of its major faults.

... sorry, did I just give the game away? Yeah, never mind, they can keep hammering home capitalism's perfection and American exceptionalism, the world is so good at not paying me or my opinions any mind, no need to start doing it now.
 
Fred Hampton was assassinated 52 years ago today by Chicago police during an early morning raid on his apartment. Very similar to other famous Civil Rights era leaders like MLK and Malcolm X, he was constantly spied on by the FBI during their COINTELPRO phase.

More information in this article here
 
I'm curious on why Biden isn't reverting back to Obama's stance on Cuba's embargos though. Budget constraints? Beliefs?

That's kind of an easy thing to do. It's a little island. It's not China.
 
Marizza Pia Spiritto said:
I'm curious on why Biden isn't reverting back to Obama's stance on Cuba's embargos though. Budget constraints? Beliefs?

That's kind of an easy thing to do. It's a little island. It's not China.
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He's a hawk and they're all in on regime change after what happened earlier this year in Cuba.
 
Hey y'all, I figure I should provide an update to my situation since a lot of you may be wondering what I've been up to. To put it roughly, I haven't been doing well, at all. My work performance is terrible and as of last Wednesday I'm officially on probation again, and unless I improve substantially I don't know how much longer I'll have a job. Furthermore, I had a really intense argument with my parents yesterday while I was visiting them for dinner and walked out on them in anger, so I'm on bad terms with what would normally be my fall back plan if something were to happen. Other than that I've just had a general feeling of loneliness, it's nice having people to talk to online but I have a constant issue with dissociation/wondering if I'm truly making friends. What I want above all else is just to have some friends, but online it's hard to tell how mutual that feeling is and I feel like I get hurt knowing it's not a mutual thing or try to cling onto people too much and just make them uncomfortable/drive them away. So all of these things combining is just leading me to isolate further and get even less social interaction.
 
Oheao said:
Hey y'all, I figure I should provide an update to my situation since a lot of you may be wondering what I've been up to. To put it roughly, I haven't been doing well, at all. My work performance is terrible and as of last Wednesday I'm officially on probation again, and unless I improve substantially I don't know how much longer I'll have a job. Furthermore, I had a really intense argument with my parents yesterday while I was visiting them for dinner and walked out on them in anger, so I'm on bad terms with what would normally be my fall back plan if something were to happen. Other than that I've just had a general feeling of loneliness, it's nice having people to talk to online but I have a constant issue with dissociation/wondering if I'm truly making friends. What I want above all else is just to have some friends, but online it's hard to tell how mutual that feeling is and I feel like I get hurt knowing it's not a mutual thing or try to cling onto people too much and just make them uncomfortable/drive them away. So all of these things combining is just leading me to isolate further and get even less social interaction.
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Hey man, I'm sorry to hear all of that, hope you get better and if you don't, that's also okay, because nobody is able to always do right. If you wanna talk, hit me up on a private message, I'm here for ya, comrade!
 
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