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Discussion Socialism Discussion Thread

Reader mode
Mekanos said:
I honestly would rather discuss the claim that the Nazis “ran out of steam,” which is a very interesting euphemism for “the Soviets kicked their asses six ways from Sunday.”
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Honestly it is quite disrespectful to everyone who sacrificed everything to kick the shit out of the Nazis to say that they just got tired or bored of anything. A complete insult.

Also, the Japanese government surrendered because they were scared shitless of the Soviets, even more than a US invasion.
 
NarohDethan said:
Honestly it is quite disrespectful to everyone who sacrificed everything to kick the shit out of the Nazis to say that they just got tired or bored of anything. A complete insult.

Also, the Japanese government surrendered because they were scared shitless of the Soviets, even more than a US invasion.
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There’s a recorded phone call of Hitler shitting his pants wondering how the fuck the Soviets built so many tanks. He invaded them with the intent to wipe them off the face of the earth and without the bravery and sacrifice of the Soviet soldiers the allies would have seen millions more dead soldiers and civilians.

That’s not even getting into what country liberated auschwitz. Hint: it wasn’t America.
 
Rainbow said:
I'm sorry for the average russian citizen. But
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Nah, fuck this shit. I want you to seriously take a second and imagine being an average russian citizen potentially facing starvation because foreign countries wanted to "punish" your leader. That's what sanctions do. That's collective reprisal. It's fucking terrorism
 
Monster Mash said:
Nah, fuck this shit. I want you to seriously take a second and imagine being an average russian citizen potentially facing starvation because foreign countries wanted to "punish" your leader. That's what sanctions do. That's collective reprisal. It's fucking terrorism
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Blame Putin and no one else. Putin does not care if his people are suffer. He threatened europe openly with war, knowing the consequences. His tanks are rolling into Ukraine as we speak.

You know he fucked up, when even China is pissed off and condemn his actions
 
Rainbow said:
Blame Putin and no one else. Putin does not care if his people are suffer. He threatened europe openly with war, knowing the consequences. His tanks are rolling into Ukraine as we speak.

You know he fucked up, when even China is pissed off and condemn his actions
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You don't care if his people suffer either. That's the problem here. How wretched and awful do you have to be inside to condone that kind of reprisal and mass death against innocent people who have no say in what Putin does.

It's pathetic that you couldn't even entertain being in the shoes of the people who sanctions are going to hurt. They didn't do this. Again, if things were reversed and the entire world came together to sanction America into the dirt for our long history of atrocities, would you be as willing to suffer "the consequences"? Of course not. It's an abhorrent thought, and it's an abhorrent action.

Again, that is state terrorism. It is reprisal against a population for the actions of their government. Get your head out of your ass.
 
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www.nytimes.com

Iraq Sanctions Kill Children, U.N. Reports (Published 1995)

www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
As many as 576,000 Iraqi children may have died since the end of the Persian Gulf war because of economic sanctions imposed by the Security Council, according to two scientists who surveyed the country for the Food and Agriculture Organization.
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SlXcR6b.png
 
Monster Mash said:
You don't care if his people suffer either. That's the problem here. How wretched and awful do you have to be inside to condone that kind of reprisal and mass death against innocent people who have no say in what Putin does.

It's pathetic that you couldn't even entertain being in the shoes of the people who sanctions are going to hurt. They didn't do this. Again, if things were reversed and the entire world came together to sanction America into the dirt for our long history of atrocities, would you be as willing to suffer "the consequences"? Of course not. It's an abhorrent thought, and it's an abhorrent action.

Again, that is state terrorism. It is reprisal against a population for the actions of their government. Get your head out of your ass.
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Russia is not owed trade with western countries.

If Russia has decided to start a war in Ukraine, killing and hurting Ukranian soldiers and civilians, then why should it still be allowed to trade gas and resources with western countries who are in alliance with or support Ukraine? Wouldn't that make western support of Ukraine rather hypocritical?

Moreover, many of the sanctions being discussed are targeted sanctions at things like Russian wealth stored offshore, such as the Russian money currently invested in London. That money is doing nothing for the Russian people as it is, because it was taken by oligarchs.
 
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JazzPotatoes said:
Russia is not owed trade with western countries.

If Russia has decided to start a war in Ukraine, killing and hurting Ukranian soldiers and civilians, then why should it still be allowed to trade gas and resources with western countries who are in alliance with or support Ukraine? Wouldn't that make western support of Ukraine rather hypocritical?
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I'm not interested in this dishonest garbage. This isn't a game. Again, we are going to get real people who are innocent killed in massive numbers and then continue pretending we are the champions of freedom and human rights. This is terrorism.
 
Monster Mash said:
I'm not interested in this dishonest garbage. This isn't a game. Again, we are going to get real people who are innocent killed in massive numbers and then continue pretending we are the champions of freedom and human rights. This is terrorism.
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So, then enlighten us.

Yesterday Putin shunned all diplomacy. He told us, that it is his holy right, to take back the russian empire. From east germany to all of eastern europe, the baltics up to finland. They all shall have no right of existence. And that military force is justified to take it back. And everyone in his path that offers resistance are guilty of the following bloodbath. And as we speak, the russian tanks are rolling.

So, what shall we do,?
 
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JazzPotatoes said:
Russia is not owed trade with western countries.

If Russia has decided to start a war in Ukraine, killing and hurting Ukranian soldiers and civilians, then why should it still be allowed to trade gas and resources with western countries who are in alliance with or support Ukraine? Wouldn't that make western support of Ukraine rather hypocritical?

Moreover, many of the sanctions being discussed are targeted sanctions at things like Russian wealth stored offshore, such as the Russian money currently invested in London. That money is doing nothing for the Russian people as it is, because it was taken by oligarchs.
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Do you have examples of sanctions like this working in the past?
 
Rainbow said:
You know he fucked up, when even China is pissed off and condemn his actions
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What makes you say that? I watched the emergency meeting of the UN Security Council last night and China's statement was a weak and empty one. Almost every other countries in the meeting had strong statements condemning Russia, China did not. I didn't see any real will to condemn Putin's actions, they called for diplomacy and didn't say anything substantial. We can assume they're watching the situation closely because of the implications it could have on their relations with Taiwan, but I don't see how China is "pissed off" at the moment.

As for sanctions, others have said it here but it just doesn't work.
 
Monster Mash said:
I'm not interested in this dishonest garbage. This isn't a game. Again, we are going to get real people who are innocent killed in massive numbers and then continue pretending we are the champions of freedom and human rights. This is terrorism.
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You're right, it's not a game. This is a hand the west was forced in to by Russia moving forward to annex other sovereign nations who will inevitably suffer harshly under Russian rule.
The options on the table are the west actually going to war with Russia or, do nothing and let them rape and pillage other nations as they please, or, for now, sanctions.
Russia are the ones who took the only option with minimal suffering for anybody off the table with that whole "invasion" thing, so which do you prefer?
 
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Rainbow said:
You know he fucked up, when even China is pissed off and condemn his actions
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China is playing bothsides, with support favoring Russia. Putin was in Beijing earlier this month for Winter Olympics and meet with China's president. They release a strong worded statement that both contries will closely cooperate "without any limits".
 
Linkstrikesback said:
You're right, it's not a game. This is a hand the west was forced in to by Russia moving forward to annex other sovereign nations who will inevitably suffer harshly under Russian rule.
The options on the table are the west actually going to war with Russia or, do nothing and let them rape and pillage other nations as they please, or, for now, sanctions.
Russia are the ones who took the only option with minimal suffering for anybody off the table with that whole "invasion" thing, so which do you prefer?
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Doing nothing is preferable than doing nothing but starving civilians.
 
Brock Reiher said:
Do you have examples of sanctions like this working in the past?
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South Africa.

The sanctions against that country during the 1980s led to it becoming increasingly economically isolated, and were a major factor in the end of the apartheid era of politics.

The anti-sanction narrative that is doing the rounds on the internet is a prime example of disinformation taking hold. Sanctions are simply nations witholding trade and targeting wealth in countries with regressive policies. They are one of the most effective ways to hold other nations to account without starting wars. If you want the UK or the US to cut ties with Saudi Arabia over their human rights abuses, then you're pro-sanction. If you're part of the BDS movement against Israel over its treatment of Palestinians, then you're pro-sanction.

Why would you want to encourage trade with a country like Russia, which criminalises LGBTQ and prosecutes or murders dissenters?
 
JazzPotatoes said:
South Africa.

The sanctions against that country during the 1980s led to it becoming increasingly economically isolated, and were a major factor in the end of the apartheid era of politics.

The anti-sanction narrative that is doing the rounds on the internet is a prime example of disinformation taking hold. Sanctions are simply nations witholding trade and targeting wealth in countries with regressive policies. They are one of the most effective ways to hold other nations to account without starting wars. If you want the UK or the US to cut ties with Saudi Arabia over their human rights abuses, then you're pro-sanction. If you're part of the BDS movement against Israel over its treatment of Palestinians, then you're pro-sanction.

Why would you want to encourage trade with a country like Russia, which criminalises LGBTQ and prosecutes or murders dissenters?
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That does seem like a good example. I don't know enough about the situation to say if that's what successfully ended Aparthied. The reason I would want to encourage trade is because like I said, more often than not sanctions are not effective for anything other than reinforcing the existing regime while starving people. So I think its important to consider that when saying stuff like "well it's sad that people will starve, but it has to be done".

Sanctions are surely not one of the most effective ways though, unless you have other examples of them working to topple regimes.

Also, sanctions are not the same as like not wanting to eat at Chikfila. You're over simplifying them to lessen their impacts.
 
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Anyway it's very clear that these two users that clearly aren't socialist are trying to bait other people into saying 'WELL PUTIN IS RIGHT', just because we're categorically against sanctions and basically any US geopolitical action as they always serve their interests.

It won't work folks, give it up.
 
Brock Reiher said:
That does seem like a good example. I don't know enough about the situation to say if that's what successfully ended Aparthied. The reason I would want to encourage trade is because like I said, more often than not sanctions are not effective for anything other than reinforcing the existing regime while starving people. So I think its important to consider that when saying stuff like "well it's sad that people will starve, but it has to be done".
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Ok. So are you also against the calls to sanction Saudi Arabia and Israel?

NarohDethan said:
Anyway it's very clear that these two users that clearly aren't socialist
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You don't know me. I am socialist. I also happen to be against Russia invading Ukraine, something posters in this thread were adamant wouldn't happen.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Ok. So are you also against the calls to sanction Saudi Arabia and Israel?


You don't know me. I am socialist. I also happen to be against Russia invading Ukraine, something posters in this thread were adamant wouldn't happen.
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Coming in here to gloat about being right is not a good look
 
NarohDethan said:
A pro sanction socialist, that's a new one
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bdsmovement.net

BDS Movement

The Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement works to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians and pressure Israel to comply with international law.
bdsmovement.net bdsmovement.net

The Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement works to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians and pressure Israel to comply with international law.
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SANCTIONS campaigns pressure governments to fulfil their legal obligations to end Israeli apartheid, and not aid or assist its maintenance, by banning business with illegal Israeli settlements, ending military trade and free-trade agreements, as well as suspending Israel's membership in international forums such as UN bodies and FIFA.
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This isn't a niche issue, BDS has been at the heart of the left's campaign for Palestinian rights for years. Sanctions are at the heart of that campaign.

How about the US stop selling them weapons.
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That would be a form of economic sanction, as you're no longer trading military goods for money.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
bdsmovement.net

BDS Movement

The Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement works to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians and pressure Israel to comply with international law.
bdsmovement.net bdsmovement.net





This isn't a niche issue, BDS has been at the heart of the left's campaign for Palestinian rights for years. Sanctions are at the heart of that campaign.



That would be a form of economic sanction, as you're no longer trading military goods for money.
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No it isn't
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Ok. So are you also against the calls to sanction Saudi Arabia and Israel?
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Is anyone proposing sanctions against these countries that are comparable to the ones being proposed against Russia?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions but it feels like the people proposing sanctions want to feel like they'd doing something good and meaningful, when in actuality it just makes things worse. There are lots of situations where the best thing to do is to do nothing, because otherwise you'll only make things worse.
 
NarohDethan said:
Anyway it's very clear that these two users that clearly aren't socialist are trying to bait other people into saying 'WELL PUTIN IS RIGHT', just because we're categorically against sanctions and basically any US geopolitical action as they always serve their interests.

It won't work folks, give it up.
Click to expand...

This will be my last response in this thread. My first post here was just to express my fear for the future if Putin start a war. With no ulterior motives.

I then was critizised for falling on US propaganda and people here swear to me, that it's pretty clear that Putin wont invade. I found that very naive. Reality than showed it was even worse. Not only were the US right in there predictions, but Putin tell us in the face, that he want the russian empire back with blood and fire.

I read Marx, Makarenko, Freire and Boal. I'm very interested in the south american pedagogics of the oppressed and the theology of liberation. Sympathize very strong with socialist ideas. That we should stand on the side of the oppressed and i am all for more social justice and that capitalist enrichment and power of individuals should be limited.

Putin is the best example for a man, corrupted by greed and power. Oppressing his folk, killing his opposition and now starting a war on europe. That has the potential, of million people suffering. Just because of his fascist, national and imperialism dreams. Reality is very amivalent here. There are no nuances here. He started a war and only leave us the choice of either surrender to his oppression or fight.

But all that is said here is more of, well the US is bad, sanctions are bad.(Stand now, EU Sanctions target formost Putins inner circle) But you don't answer any questions how this crisis could be solved, either. Or even what's your ideas to stop this war. It sounds very confusing and ignorant. As someone with heavy antifascist- opinion, this behavior leave me shocked. I dont know what kind of "real socialism" you even think you stand for. But you have done no advertisement for it. That's for sure.

Sorry for the missunderstandings. But i agree to disagree then.
 
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JazzPotatoes said:
Ok. So are you also against the calls to sanction Saudi Arabia and Israel?


You don't know me. I am socialist. I also happen to be against Russia invading Ukraine, something posters in this thread were adamant wouldn't happen.
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"I'm a socialist, I just want to starve poor people, as a treat"
 
Rainbow said:
I will not react to your derailing. I basically learned about history of WW2 for years in school and from people that experienced it, like mygrandfathers and my former school director. I even studied the
Pedagogics of the oppressed and how propaganda works. So just spare me with your idiotic simplicism.

People who think that hammer and sickel has something to do with socialism anyway, are just not worth my time.

And Putinis insane and shall go to hell.
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Dawg, I learned that Columbus was awesome growing up, maybe you should do some critical thinking wrt to what American schools teach about foreign countries

www.vox.com

France is wrong about who defeated the Nazis

There are a lot of reasons Hitler lost. A big one was that the Red Army demolished the German Army.
www.vox.com www.vox.com
 
JazzPotatoes said:
"I'm a socialist, I just don't mind when capitalist fascists take over other countries, for the lols"
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Did you just suggest that opposition to sanctions is support of fascism?

inb4 "Look, nukes are bad, but murdering Japanese citizens was the only solution!"
 
Linkstrikesback said:
You're right, it's not a game. This is a hand the west was forced in to by Russia moving forward to annex other sovereign nations who will inevitably suffer harshly under Russian rule.
The options on the table are the west actually going to war with Russia or, do nothing and let them rape and pillage other nations as they please, or, for now, sanctions.
Russia are the ones who took the only option with minimal suffering for anybody off the table with that whole "invasion" thing, so which do you prefer?
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"Forced into"

Get the fuck out of here pretending we have no other option than to ruin the lives of the Russian citizenry
 
JazzPotatoes said:
You suggested I'm a fan of starving citizens. I only replied in the same jocular manner.
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www.nytimes.com

Iraq Sanctions Kill Children, U.N. Reports (Published 1995)

www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
As many as 576,000 Iraqi children may have died since the end of the Persian Gulf war because of economic sanctions imposed by the Security Council, according to two scientists who surveyed the country for the Food and Agriculture Organization.
Click to expand...

SlXcR6b.png



You have literally advocated for this shit in this thread in spite of people telling you how barbaric it is
 
JazzPotatoes said:
It will matter to him if and when he can no longer afford to keep running Russia as a mafia state.

You are all arguing damn hard against two points which are objectively observable to any casual viewer:

1) Putin has used Russian assets to personally amass a huge fortune. This is not debatable. Just a cursory reading of post-Soviet politics and the rise of the oligarch system will inevitably lead you to read about Putin gaining power, then threatening those oligarchs if they did not hand over massive portions of their wealth to him. He's an ex-KGB agent who muscled his way into politics off the back of false-flag attacks, and then used nationwide extortion to get as much money as possible, which he now stashes wherever he can.

2) Putin is paranoid, and his paranoia fuels his decision making when it comes to geopolitics. Again; using novichock in a NATO country, hacking the US electoral system and invading Ukraine are not the decisions of a well balanced leader. They are the actions of a leader who is completely terrified that a) Russia will become impotent on the world stage, and b) that he will be the leader who oversaw this, and will lose everything he has amassed.
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If Putin is paranoid, what would more sanctions do? He'd just use that as further justification in his mind for doing what he's doing if paranoia is his reasoning. He'll have to double down because if he backs down he's admitting defeat.
 
I think it's pretty easy to say that Putin is bad and Russia's aggression on Ukraine is bad while also saying the US' involvement in this is bad and has made things worse. All you're asking is for one bigger capitalist country to do is bomb and starve the people of a smaller capitalist country.
 
Nato should play by his rules. If he thinks Ukraine is a colony with a puppet government then they should say "Yep Mr. Putin is totally correct", "We do own it, and as such can place our troops in it."

He'd change his tune if he was about to kill soldiers of 3 different nuclear nations.
 
Gashead said:
Nato should play by his rules. If he thinks Ukraine is a colony with a puppet government then they should say "Yep Mr. Putin is totally correct", "We do own it, and as such can place our troops in it."

He'd change his tune if he was about to kill soldiers of 3 different nuclear nations.
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US/Nato should not be placing troops anywhere near Ukraine. That will only escalate things
 
https://lefteast.org/impossible-interview-ukraine/

Think this interview is particularly interesting, coming from a Ukrainian communist perspective. Here’s a good excerpt:

“There is no “capitalism with a human face.” It is impossible to exploit people humanly. And capitalism is impossible without exploitation, profit extraction is its inherent condition. The regional differences between capitalisms correspond to the differences in the material development of the regions in question. Both Putin’s regime, brought to us by US-backed liberals; and Ukrainian nationalists, who rose from the yeast of the US-backed Maidan, are products of the market empire and its triumph in 1991. I see no point to break it down into “good” and “bad” capitalism. We all live in the same interconnected historical reality.”
 
I just read the statement of the Marxist Tendency on the russian recognition of the DPR and LPR and I think it's a pretty good and interesting article :
http://www.marxist.com/statement-on-putin-s-recognition-of-the-dpr-and-lpr.htm

A propaganda war seeks to trap communists and leftists from different sides in a false choice between different imperialist forces, of an international or regional scale; between different cliques of capitalists; between different ethno-chauvinist positions. As internationalists, we affirm that we will not allow ourselves to be deceived by capital and its spokesmen, and turn ourselves into their voluntary servants, no matter where they are - in Moscow, Brussels, Washington or Kiev. We speak on behalf of only one interest - the common interest of the working class of all nations.
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Linkstrikesback said:
I note that you completely skipped answering the question I asked. Why is that you're willing to entirely ruin the lives of the Ukranian citizenry instead, then?
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Once again, foh, dishonest cretin.

I know you desperately want to deflect from the consequences of actions you are advocating for, but it's dumb as hell to try to project that onto me when I haven't advocated for anything that will result in mass death.
 
Staff Communication
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    Hey folks, the pros and cons of economic sanctions is a complicated, nuanced discussion that I doubt we're going to reach a conclusion on in a gaming forum. That being said, it would be preferable if you didn't come into a socialism thread and tell users that their anti-sanctions position is somehow complicit in the death and suffering of the Ukrainian people. -blondkayvon, BozPaggs, Donnie, hologram, Rika
     
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