eldin ring sword upgrade too much fun. makes bosses too easy
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StarTopic Kirby and the Forgotten Land |ST| Hero in Another Dimension
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Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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Wait until you get the final sword upgrade
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Appreciating a lot the fact that dodge not only has witch time if you pull it off right on time, but that it leaves you looking at the enemy you just dodged so you can counterattack.
Plasma not being there is strange, especially considering the theme. It arguably got replaced by mouthful stuff though (like wheel). Mirror might be my least favorite ever though so I'm glad they cut it and many of the other abilities that are too busy.
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final sword upgrade?
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Holy shit! I noticed the background there and, being early in the game, thought it was a Mario sunshine like hint at the next level. Wild!
OP
OP
Catalyst
Koopa
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I guess as the thread creator I should be talking about the game. Right now I’m on World 5 and really enjoying it! There’s a satisfying gameplay loop of doing a stage, doing a couple Treasure Roads, and then checking back at the hub World before doing the next stage. There’s always something new at Waddle Dee Town. I just wish you could talk to every Waddle Dee like the Toads in Paper Mario.
- Wonderia is definitely the stand-out world so far. The first two were great but mostly your standard Kirby fare. But this theme park really hits a home run in all aspects. The carnival-themed obstacles, the great Mouthful abilities like the coaster, the happy music, and the smaller stuff like the enemies waiting in line and getting those ducks to their mom. Then we get the super unique “haunted house” level and the parade stage with cool Tornado gimmicks. This world is Smash stage-worthy, please don’t ignore modern Kirby again Sakurai.
- Northwest Frost Street has the best music, what a gorgeous track.
- Upgrading the abilities is a great time, I’m glad you can switch to any of the versions whenever you want. Few things are more badass than Dragon Fire.
- I wish there were more mid-bosses, they just keep recycling the same ones over and over. I know previous Kirby games did that but not to this game’s extent.
- I usually don’t 100% Kirby games but the checklist-based system has made me more invested. That and it’s more fun to explore a 3D stage than a 2D one.
- Best Dedede fight ever. And that’s saying a lot considering he was an axe murderer in Triple Deluxe.
Game rocks. Ranger might be my favorite ability in a Kirby game, I got the upgraded version and first level in absolutely massacred two of the little wolf guys just casually walking down some stairs with like 25 charges shots.
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Mirror has been in a grand total of four games. And two of those games are Kirby Super Star. I think it's fine if it comes back one more time.
This might be the first time I've seen someone call mirror their least favorite. And there are some clunkers. Ball Kirby, Paint Kirby (not to be confused with Artist Kirby), Mini Kirby...
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I think we can expect the next title to shake things up a lot more in that regard, just like the 1-2 punch of Triple Deluxe and Robobot. This game did a lot of heavy lifting to bring the series forward though (obviously, being the series biggest step forward mechanically, ever lol) and now they can hopefully soar with it.
Lots of Kirby 64 references in this game, especially with the upgrades.
Clunker is how I'd describe mirror, yes. One of the abilities you avoid because it makes moving worse.
Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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Yeah I'm near the end of the game and although I've enjoyed it a lot, I'm really excited to see where they go from here. There are very few series I am day 1 for and if they can keep this quality consistent I will be there day 1 for all 3D Kirby games.
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I dunno, this game already felt like a Robobot-style itteration on the Kirby Standard in terms of level themes and creativity. Probably intentional with Star Allies already on Switch.
If the base is this great, though, i'm excited to see how they iterate on it further!
If the base is this great, though, i'm excited to see how they iterate on it further!
Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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My main hangups are things that are the result of being the first 3D Kirby, like lack of underwater sections and less abilities. Things that can be easily addressed in sequels. I'm already liking the focus on puzzle solving this game brought to the table. It's undeniably a fantastic effort for the first 3D game, they went all out.
Robobot felt like the first game to fundamentally rethink how to make a Kirby game since Super Star so it stuck with me in that way. Not just rearranging and tweaking it, actually genuinely altering and even evolving the formula. Forgotten Land is still a great game and comfortably in the top tier for the series, don't get me wrong. If KSSU is a 10 (KSS being an 9.5), to me Robobot is probably an 8.5 and this is an 8. I dunno, IGN scoring, you know how it is.
Anyway I'll probably finish this tonight so I'll go more into detail then. Maybe.
Apopheniac
Monolith Soft action game truther
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Beat the second boss with the wife. Haven't done much upgrading yet, but I just redeemed a bunch of codes (plugging in a keyboard makes this so much easier), and I'll probably tackle the bonus stages next week to get some more star coins.
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Just fought the Tropical Terror boss five separate times for the missions, and enjoyed it each time while taking a different approach to my fighting strategy.
I’ve actually had to go through most of these levels multiple times, and I don’t have a single complaint about that. The levels are so well-designed, and the environment is an absolute joy to be in. Plus, the missions really encourage you to look at this new world from a 3D scope and break some boundaries - it’s so much fun!
I’ve actually had to go through most of these levels multiple times, and I don’t have a single complaint about that. The levels are so well-designed, and the environment is an absolute joy to be in. Plus, the missions really encourage you to look at this new world from a 3D scope and break some boundaries - it’s so much fun!
I agree, but Robobot also faithfully adheres to the template set in Return to Dreamland. I'm hoping for a new director so we don't get it yet again next time.
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See, I read this and I don't think, "Oh, the next game's gonna be this massive shift in the formula!" I read, "So an iterative sequel with the same structure but a different, albeit extremely well implemented central gimmick." I made that Triple Deluxe vs Planet Robobot post for a reason! I really, really gotta replay both of them. I remember 2014 VolcanicDynamo being kinda impressed with Triple Deluxe, and games that impress me for whatever reason tend to stick with me, meanwhile I kept noticing how similar Robobot was to Triple Deluxe while still acknowledging that it is the "better" game.
...Granted, not that I mind an iterative sequel. The best thing for the next 3D game seems to be "Forgotten Land but more." For instance, if you keep all of the copy abilities from this game, shouldn't be all that wild to, say, add like 6 other ones in a sequel three or so years down the line. Don't need to completely reinvent the wheel now that they have something going, just add more.
I actually do think this game makes enough deviations from the Return to Dream Land formula, though. Besides 3D, the way the bonus objectives are set up and the ability upgrading really work out nicely. These Kirby games have also done a good job of having unique thematic identities, making them stand out from the others. Now that I think about it, Star Allies' first half isnt as distinct in that regard, maybe part of the reason why it feels more of the same? Either way, keep this vision of the franchise coming. I really like it.
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Yes, what you were thinking is exactly what I am too! I think what @Brock Reiher was looking for from this is different from what it aimed to deliver was basically my point, at least based on those posts I quoted. My main point was that this game is taking a lot of risks with the harder stuff - mechanics, engine, game structure, so on. So, now that that has taken a step forward bigger than ever before in the series, they are set to get more creative in the other aspects.
Tho, tbh I also agree that I don’t really fit this in the “return to dreamland” tropes with the new world, characters, and such. Of course it could have taken bigger risks especially compared to Odyssey changing things up literally every world so massively, but I don’t think that was necessary here at least. @Brock Reiher I’d be curious to hear more about what you feel is missing / what you mean by the RtD template!
Forgotten Land definitely has more in common with Return to Dreamland (as well as Triple Deluxe/Star Allies/Robobot) in terms of general layout and level design as any of those games have in common with say, Kirby Dreamland, Kirby 64, or Kirby Superstar. If you play the games all back to back its really apparent how foundational Return to Dreamland was. They even look the same if you upscale the older games.
Of course that makes sense, all these games have the same director. Time for a change, even die hard fans are starting to cool on the mandatory 4-5 collectables/obligatory chaos boss/new nonsensical meta knight pallette swap/enemy betrayal I think.
Of course that makes sense, all these games have the same director. Time for a change, even die hard fans are starting to cool on the mandatory 4-5 collectables/obligatory chaos boss/new nonsensical meta knight pallette swap/enemy betrayal I think.
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kaydeejay
Piranha Plant
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You and I? We're the same. I like you. Gimme a pack with a new world and a couple new abilities. I'd pay a few bucks for that
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Continuing to adore this.
S/o to whoever included a retry star for the flight sections. Didn’t need it this first time, and oddly inconsistent with the lack of a “retry checkpoint” option to which I’ve thrown myself off a cliff once already to get around.
Also, not a fan of the arbitrary challenges like kill x with an ice ability, but otherwise, all smiles here.
S/o to whoever included a retry star for the flight sections. Didn’t need it this first time, and oddly inconsistent with the lack of a “retry checkpoint” option to which I’ve thrown myself off a cliff once already to get around.
Also, not a fan of the arbitrary challenges like kill x with an ice ability, but otherwise, all smiles here.
Ahh I see, I haven’t touched those in a long time nor did I play star allies so this is feeling much more fresh to me.
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Speak for yourself - Star Allies was underwhelming, but that was a level design problem, not the fault of the modern formula. In fact, I don't see many people complaining about the modern Kirby formula, just Star Allies. Give me engaging level design that gets me to use my copy abilities (which three of the four modern games have, and Forgotten Land certainly does already), and I'll be all for it, formula change or no formula change.
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It's fine if you feel that way, but that's nowhere close to being a common consensus in the Kirby fandom, lol. Here's a quick check-in with reality:
- There's only one main collectable that actually matters for progression in Forgotten Land, Waddle Dees. One of the more common praises i've seen for this game so far is how HAL differentiated them from Energy Spheres (these are actually optional if you aren't going for 100%), Sun Stones and Code Cubes (there's no equivalent in Star Allies) through the objective structure. Coins and Rare Stones are unlimited resources you can earn in multiple ways; haven't seen anybody bothered by those yet.
- People love the eldrich horror final bosses; a fun series staple. Since the September reveal there were tons of fan art and speculation on Twitter trying to guess what it'd look like this time, even. Somehow I don't recall anyone guessing it quite right though...
- If "chaos boss" means EX / Soul bosses, fans generally like those too!
- Galacta Knight was introduced in 2008; it was just him for a whole decade until Star Allies introduced Morpho Knight; not a very common occurrence. Both have a ton of chatter and speculation surrounding them in the fandom; the lore croud especially LOVE talking about those two. The most anger i've ever seen directed at either of them were people upset that Morpho upstaged Galacta in Star Allies, because they like the latter.
- They've done the betrayal twist a grand total of two times in the history of the series, once in 1996 and then in 2011. Not sure how this one is even relevant to Forgotten Land
There may be fans who like that stuff now, but it's better to stop doing it while they're ahead. Especially in the case of these games where even the art style hasn't changed in over a decade, you're basically just banking on the game's specific gimmick doing all the heavy lifting. When the gimmick is exciting (robobot) people like the game, when the gimmick is less exciting (star allies) people don't like it. It's going to be harder and harder to come up with a good enough gimmick the more times you reuse the same general structure.
Do the Kirby fighting games do well at all? I would say it is a mistake to focus on extra stuff like the arena and bonus modes since the combat is the weak point of the series, but if those do well it would be a different situation.
Do the Kirby fighting games do well at all? I would say it is a mistake to focus on extra stuff like the arena and bonus modes since the combat is the weak point of the series, but if those do well it would be a different situation.
I finished Worlds 2 and 3 today 100%. World 3 is going to be tough to beat. Tons of cool variety in that one. Just fought Meta Knight and that was one of his all time best boss fights. Really digging this game a ton. This has really been an ideal transition to 3D for Kirby and including bonus objectives and tons of challenge rooms is such a great new direction for the franchise that gives more experienced players a more satisfying experience.
Having not finished it, I don’t want to weigh in too much on some of the what you’d want from a sequel / next game talk other than yeah I’d be interested in more of this. I do hope at some point, 2D or 3D, HAL also takes another stab at a Metroidvania Kirby game. The Great Cave Offensive is my all time favorite Kirby experience and The Amazing Mirror was awesome too. The mall level in Forgotten Land was such a tease when it had multiple paths considering they didn’t lead to different places. I wouldn’t mind if it is a sub game/mode within a bigger package like the original Great Cave Offensive was.
Having not finished it, I don’t want to weigh in too much on some of the what you’d want from a sequel / next game talk other than yeah I’d be interested in more of this. I do hope at some point, 2D or 3D, HAL also takes another stab at a Metroidvania Kirby game. The Great Cave Offensive is my all time favorite Kirby experience and The Amazing Mirror was awesome too. The mall level in Forgotten Land was such a tease when it had multiple paths considering they didn’t lead to different places. I wouldn’t mind if it is a sub game/mode within a bigger package like the original Great Cave Offensive was.
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I do think it'd be neat if they tried a different structure with the next Kirby game, 2D or 3D; maybe another (hopefully better) attempt at a Metroidvania like Amazing Mirror; maybe they could do a set of subgames like Super Star (Kirby GCN was going to be this, if it wasn't canned); or the novel idea of doing something entirely new! Could experiment with different visual styles too, sure!
I don't think the current "structure" is really much of a blight on the series, though. For every obvious similarity Forgotten Land has with the modern 2D games (i'd argue it's actually admirable how much of that Kirby feeling HAL retained their first attempt at a 3D installment; it's more a 3D World conversion than a Mario 64) it does plenty different too; a hub town, different missions to complete in each stage, more environmental puzzles utilizing copy abilities (and mouthful modes) than ever before (as in, meaningful puzzles; not just "break these blocks that can only be broken with this specific power"), etc.
Also don't really think i'd consider most of the things I quoted and replied above to be part of the series' core structure or identity; just the eldrich horror boss stuff I guess, and they've been doing ethereal final bosses since Kirby's Adventure! The amount of collectables to grab doesn't seem any more absurd than a 3D Mario, and the other two examples only happened twice each in three decades! Who knows when people will get tired of those elements; but I can't forsee it being anytime soon.
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I mean, I'd argue that going into 3D (and all the changes in scope and structure that come with it), ability upgrades, and the emphasis on clearing challenges/puzzles in stages to encourage exploration serve as meaningful changes to the formula, but agree to disagree, I guess. It's also small things, like how Waddle Dee Town is basically a diegetic main menu or how the franchise continues to explore cool new thematic backdrops to liven things up, that help the game stand out. If HAL wants to keep expanding Kirby in this direction, then yeah, give it to me, but if they want to try something new, then yeah, go for it. I just don't think the formula is the problem. The problem with Star Allies is level design, not necessarily the gimmick of multiplayer and helpers.
I'd probably feel differently if the modern Kirby games failed to have their own identities, but that's far from the truth. A very easy point of comparison for a franchise that fails to do that is the New Super Mario Bros. games. Each are games that, on their own, are decent to good, even great at points, but they borrow so much from each other that they often blend together, failing to stand out and being seen as bland regardless of their individual merits. That's a case where lots of people are clamoring for something, anything different, especially in the presentation. Meanwhile, despite sharing the same basic structure with some deviations, all four of the 2D modern Kirby games feel distinct from each other. This is thanks to, yes, their gimmicks, but also constantly changing thematic elements, unique side content, new abilities, and new bosses. And Forgotten Land continues in that trend.
What could potentially be a good idea is having the 2D games become more experimental while exploring how to grow this new 3D branch of Kirby. Like @MondoMega just said, going back to the Metroidvania formula for a 2D Kirby game could be interesting. Maybe combine elements with Milky Way Wishes, how you can permanently earn copy abilities, to make puzzle solving and exploration more interesting. Or perhaps Mario style hidden exits to unlock other levels, feed into that idea of exploration.
The Arena/Boss Endurance has been a franchise staple since Kirby's Adventure, and an optional mode that recycles the grand majority of its content from the rest of the game doesn't sound all that bad to keep doing? Almost all of the main Kirby platformers have some form of "Arena" mode, and the one that doesn't, Kirby's Dream Land...has a final level that involves the refighting all of the bosses. And the games keep emphasizing and adding combat mechanics, both in copy abilities with larger move sets and in defensive options - the block from Super Star, then Triple Deluxe added dodging, and Forgotten Land expands that to be more mobile and even adds a bullet time-esque mechanic for perfectly timed dodges. Like it or not, Kirby does place some focus on its combat in addition to its platforming and puzzle solving.
Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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Final boss down. Was having some trouble with it until I switched from ranged weapons to hammer, tore through it pretty good.
Great game, still a bit below Robobot for me but a welcome introduction to the third dimension for the pink puffball after so long. The Switch really is the GOAT for 3D platforming. I wish Bandana Dee got his own adventure mode like Meta Knight/Dedede before him, I know the extra areas are sort of like those old campaigns but I really would love to replay this in that fashion. Feels like it would be a perfect DLC candidate but idk if they'll do that.
Not sure if I'll go for 100% but probably not for a little while.
Great game, still a bit below Robobot for me but a welcome introduction to the third dimension for the pink puffball after so long. The Switch really is the GOAT for 3D platforming. I wish Bandana Dee got his own adventure mode like Meta Knight/Dedede before him, I know the extra areas are sort of like those old campaigns but I really would love to replay this in that fashion. Feels like it would be a perfect DLC candidate but idk if they'll do that.
Not sure if I'll go for 100% but probably not for a little while.
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Copy Essence Deluxe would be an interesting gimmick to return to for sure. If they tried the subgame structure again maybe they could revisit the scrapped concept Sakurai shared for Super Star; for a subgame where Kirby's mouth is sealed and you can only gain copy abilities from special items in the environment.
Press a block button then tilt into a direction.
I have also accidentally harmed Waddle Dees in the town. Soooo funny.
Thanks! I kept just trying button combos.
Zalman
Stuck on a different planet
I just reached World 5. The game is amazing. I can safely say it's one of my favorite 3D platformers ever unless the ending falls flat, but Kirby consistently gets that right so I'm not worried.
I've been going for 100% so far, but towards the end of World 4 I got hit with requirements that aren't too pleasant. Having to beat the twin Wild Frosty without getting hit in The Battle of Blizzard Bridge is not fun since they show up at the end of the level, so you have to play through the whole thing every time you retry. Not fun at all. I hope there's a way to cheese this.
Toad King
Moblin
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Get the dragon fire upgrade and just lay on the damage while running away. The burn damage tears though them. Just be careful of their hug attack and it should be easy enough.
Zalman
Stuck on a different planet
It took a few tries, but this worked. Thanks! Glad to have that one done.
Apopheniac
Monolith Soft action game truther
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Is the only reward for clearing the bonus stages under the goal time more cash? I don't really want to bother getting my times down on all of these.
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The KFG podcast way overhyped waddledee town - content wise it’s great with the mini games and such, but a comparison to Mario 64’s Castle / Mario Galaxy’s Comet Observatory is way overstated. It’s pretty rudimentary in design.
And oof that needler upgrade is visual downgrade lol
EDIT: avoiding a double post - the hammer is my favorite so far, but I don’t know if that is just the smash bros nostalgia in me talking
I love that powers seem more significant and necessary in this game than ever, which @MondoMega hit the nail on the head earlier in explaining.
And oof that needler upgrade is visual downgrade lol
EDIT: avoiding a double post - the hammer is my favorite so far, but I don’t know if that is just the smash bros nostalgia in me talking
I love that powers seem more significant and necessary in this game than ever, which @MondoMega hit the nail on the head earlier in explaining.
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You can never go wrong with Hammer in a Kirby game
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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I’m stuck at this same mission right now… Even using the Dragon Fire Copy Ability (don’t think that’s really a spoiler since it was in pre-release trailers but just in case) I just always manage to get hit at least once. Really excited to move on to the next area (especially because I can tell things are starting to get interesting) but I don’t want to move on without beating this mission first! ._.
OP
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Catalyst
Koopa
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I agree that Peach’s Castle is more complex, but Comet Observatory is pretty rudimentary. There’s not that much you can do in the Observatory besides entering levels, I would say Waddle Dee Town has more to offer.
Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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Correct.
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Totally agree. As I said the content is there but not the level design that made the mentioned Mario hubs memorable
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World 3 is a gosh darn delight
EDIT: Gotta love a little pink puffball taking out poor little animals minding their business lining up at the amusement park, not minding him any business lol
Thank dedede that the hammer upgrade wasn’t a visual downgrade. Not sure I could take another one of those after loosing spikes and link (sword) lol
EDIT: Gotta love a little pink puffball taking out poor little animals minding their business lining up at the amusement park, not minding him any business lol
The water balloon Kirby scratched that Luigi’s mansion / Mario sunshine itch that every game should have just a bit of
Thank dedede that the hammer upgrade wasn’t a visual downgrade. Not sure I could take another one of those after loosing spikes and link (sword) lol
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Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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World 3 is a gosh darn delight
The water balloon Kirby scratched that Luigi’s mansion / Mario sunshine itch that every game should have just a bit of
Thank dedede that the hammer upgrade wasn’t a visual downgrade. Not sure I could take another one of those after loosing spikes and link (sword) lol
I actually was more reminded of Mario And Luigi than those games...
you can switch it back! but those are both huge upgradesWorld 3 is a gosh darn delight
EDIT: Gotta love a little pink puffball taking out poor little animals minding their business lining up at the amusement park, not minding him any business lol
The water balloon Kirby scratched that Luigi’s mansion / Mario sunshine itch that every game should have just a bit of
Thank dedede that the hammer upgrade wasn’t a visual downgrade. Not sure I could take another one of those after loosing spikes and link (sword) lol
