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Nintendo has done everything in its power to make Metroid successful. The (morph) ball is in the market's court now

AngryAlchemist said:
Eh, I'd honestly say a lot of (but definitely not all) Metroidvanias actually take more lessons from Igavanias than Metroid games. Notice how a LOT of the most popular Metroidvanias in the indie sphere fetishize combat? That's not really something Metroid ever did. It was not a super "combat" oriented game even if you did a lot of shooting, and in fact the shooting often downplayed the combat by making most of the enemies cannon-fodder.
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Combat is still an integral part of Metroid. Your main collectibles are basically all combat oriented, most upgrades have a combat purpose, and fighting bosses is the main method of concrete progression outside of collecting those upgrades. The combat wasn't very good before the Mercury Steam Metroids, but then again neither are the Igavanias' so that's basically a wash. We could say that the Igavania's emphasize combat more but just the presence and emphasis on combat is something present in the genre from the beginning, and I wouldn't say that's something the Igavanias in particular brought to the table.

I'd say the most common thing that the Igavania's are acknowledged for bringing to the table are RPG elements, which aren't super common in the modern genre, and even then the more common inspiration for those elements when they are present is Dark Souls, rather than Igavanias. So yeah, the Metroidvania name is, imo, giving too much credit to the Igavanias as far as their mechanical contribution is concerned.
 
HK-47 said:
There is always the White Papers. Also technically it is the 6th Zelda game to cross 5 million, if we don’t combine LA and DX. Link’s Crossbow Training managed it.
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Link's Crossbow Training selling only two million less than TP on the Wii is among the Wii era phenomenons that we can't even imagine repeating again.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
Actually, I think it's arguable that Breath of the Wild didn't have that much of an effect on Link's Awakenings sales. As already stated, Link's Awakening originally sold more than that on the GB. And whereas something like Ocarina of Time 3D had competition with another 3D Zelda game being on the system, there is really no new alternative 2D Zelda game. I honestly think if anything it possibly outselling the original has more to do with the Switch. If it had enough to do with Breath of the Wild to create a significant difference in sales, I think the sales would have been more in the 8-10m range (because the Switch effect would have also taken place alongside it)

Eh, I'd honestly say a lot of (but definitely not all) Metroidvanias actually take more lessons from Igavanias than Metroid games. Notice how a LOT of the most popular Metroidvanias in the indie sphere fetishize combat? That's not really something Metroid ever did. It was not a super "combat" oriented game even if you did a lot of shooting, and in fact the shooting often downplayed the combat by making most of the enemies cannon-fodder.
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The Switch is popular. BotW created and brought back tons of Zelda fans and LA was the next Zelda thing to come out after it. These things helped LA Remake. I don’t see why BotW influence would make it sell 8-10 million instead. Seems arbitrary.
 
pld said:
RIP Aquarius 😢
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I hope I wasn't too harsh on them. I just wanted to try and show them why their comparison(s) of Metroid and Splatoon, though valid for personal use, weren't that useful for predicting sales, as they seemed to not understand why they were getting so much pushback.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
Eh, I'd honestly say a lot of (but definitely not all) Metroidvanias actually take more lessons from Igavanias than Metroid games. Notice how a LOT of the most popular Metroidvanias in the indie sphere fetishize combat? That's not really something Metroid ever did. It was not a super "combat" oriented game even if you did a lot of shooting, and in fact the shooting often downplayed the combat by making most of the enemies cannon-fodder.
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The elements that Castlevania brought like combat and RPG stuff are more incremental elements than genre defining concepts, though. That is proven by the fact that a lot of games don't have these Castlevania elements but are still recognized as Metroidvanias, they're still the same genre.

Like, MegaMan and Kirby added copy abilities to the core 2D platformer gameplay for example, but there isn't a genre called "Kirbyman", they're still 2D platformers. Metroid was such an unique thing that it didn't really fit any of the genres that it could be labeled as at the time (and it still doesn't, as we've just seen in this very thread a heated discussion if it can be considered a shooter, a platformer, an adventure game etc), so it became its own genre. Nothing Symphony of the Night did with the formula had that same weight, people just started calling that new style of Castlevania "Metroidvania" and the term ended up stucking as the name of the genre.
 
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NabiscoFelt said:
Combat is still an integral part of Metroid. Your main collectibles are basically all combat oriented, most upgrades have a combat purpose, and fighting bosses is the main method of concrete progression outside of collecting those upgrades. The combat wasn't very good before the Mercury Steam Metroids, but then again neither are the Igavanias' so that's basically a wash. We could say that the Igavania's emphasize combat more but just the presence and emphasis on combat is something present in the genre from the beginning, and I wouldn't say that's something the Igavanias in particular brought to the table.

I'd say the most common thing that the Igavania's are acknowledged for bringing to the table are RPG elements, which aren't super common in the modern genre, and even then the more common inspiration for those elements when they are present is Dark Souls, rather than Igavanias. So yeah, the Metroidvania name is, imo, giving too much credit to the Igavanias as far as their mechanical contribution is concerned.
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I'm definitely not denying that Metroid has combat in it or combat-oriented segments. Honestly, the Mercury Steam games focus a LOT more on combat than the prior games. I guess the way I would say it, Metroid has definitely had a greater influence on the genre, but I think a lot of developers have more inspiration from Castlevania. And this isn't to defend the Vania part of the Metroidvania name, I just find it an interesting discussion. Because really besides RPG elements, the Iga games didn't add much, yet their effect is still talked about to this day.

Also, I'm not sure I actually agree too much when you say " Your main collectibles are basically all combat oriented", actually. I would say the "main collectibles" in the Metroid games are not extensions to power ups you already have, they are the new items you get. And considering that stuff like bombs facilitate exploration more than combat ...

Super Metroid has 10/17 of its upgrades as non-combat upgrades (including stuff like missiles and super missiles as upgrades), same with Zero Mission.
HK-47 said:
The Switch is popular. BotW created and brought back tons of Zelda fans and LA was the next Zelda thing to come out after it. These things helped LA Remake. I don’t see why BotW influence would make it sell 8-10 million instead. Seems arbitrary.
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Yeah, my bad, I guess it is arbitrary. I just feel like chalking it up to Breath of the Wild seems a little odd and redundant, we've seen trends showing that almost all Nintendo software sells better than before on the Switch, so a remake selling about as well/maybe a little better lifetime than its original version really doesn't seem all that crazy, and pining it on a phenomena we haven't really seen happen except for maybe with Age of Calamity, is just strange imo.
 
Also how many “fetishize” combat really? That seems like a specific dig at games like Hollow Knight and Salt & Sanctuary, which are clearly looking at Dark Souls with their combat focus. But even Metroid focuses on combat. Bosses are a big part of the Metroid experience. But Ori 1 or the La Mulanas are more in line with Metroid in terms of combat. Hell, Ori and the Blind Forest is maybe the most pure in the “exploratory platformer” focus, since it’s set pieces are all platforming sections.
 
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I feel maybe it was inappropriate to reply to a comment talking about the naming scheme of a genre that is largely fan-made anyways. I just find the topic of Metroid vs Castlevania's influence fascinating, I'm not taking a hard stance on a naming scheme.

HK-47 said:
Also how many “fetishize” combat really? That seems like a specific dig at games like Hollow Knight and Salt & Sanctuary, which are clearly looking at Dark Souls with their combat focus. But even Metroid focuses on combat. Bosses are a big part of the Metroid experience.
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It's not a dig, I like Hollow Knight and the Igavanias I've played. Just pointing out a difference in direction. I didn't realize that wording would be seen as offensive.
 
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Small correction on the Zelda front: it took 2 releases 5 years apart for Link's Awakening to hit 6 million on GB plus GBC. I don't think it's a fair comparison to combine the two versions of the game and say the Switch version hasn't matched that - the DX version on GBC was a later re-release with extra features and extra content.

Also I'd forgotten how well Link's Crossbow Training did. 6th best-selling title in the whole Zelda franchise! Until Link's Awakening 2019 overtakes it, if it hasn't already... (5.79m v 5.49m for LA).
 
MisterSpo said:
Small correction on the Zelda front: it took 2 releases 5 years apart for Link's Awakening to hit 6 million on GB plus GBC. I don't think it's a fair comparison to combine the two versions of the game and say the Switch version hasn't matched that - the DX version on GBC was a later re-release with extra features and extra content.
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Not a correction, I already knew that and I think it is fair. Because A ) the point isn't that it won't beat the GB version on Switch (it absolutely will), or a put down of the games performance on Switch B ) I think a better comparison actually is with other Zelda remasters/remakes anyways, which usually show a small decline over the original, in which case Link's Awakening outselling the original two versions is actually pretty huge

As for the separate versions not being countable as one entry, I feel like that gets into "Game of the Year editions shouldn't count as the same game" territory. You can actually play the DX version on the original Gameboy, minus the color dungeon, it's not like a GBC exclusive as far as I know. Even if it was, I'm not sure the GB vs GBC argument is that worthwhile.

I will say GB's uncharacteristically large life makes it's accomplishment less comparable, but at the same time the point was to highlight how well the Switch version is doing to begin with.
 
MisterSpo said:
Small correction on the Zelda front: it took 2 releases 5 years apart for Link's Awakening to hit 6 million on GB plus GBC. I don't think it's a fair comparison to combine the two versions of the game and say the Switch version hasn't matched that - the DX version on GBC was a later re-release with extra features and extra content.

Also I'd forgotten how well Link's Crossbow Training did. 6th best-selling title in the whole Zelda franchise! Until Link's Awakening 2019 overtakes it, if it hasn't already... (5.79m v 5.49m for LA).
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Yeah, which is why LA R beating it would be impressive. Though I’m generally not against later releases with extras on the same console being combined, like RE5 being combined with RE5 Gold. Though I guess it is a little weird, given the GB plus GBC oddness of that console and it’s abnormal lifespan.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
I'm definitely not denying that Metroid has combat in it or combat-oriented segments. Honestly, the Mercury Steam games focus a LOT more on combat than the prior games. I guess the way I would say it, Metroid has definitely had a greater influence on the genre, but I think a lot of developers have more inspiration from Castlevania. And this isn't to defend the Vania part of the Metroidvania name, I just find it an interesting discussion. Because really besides RPG elements, the Iga games didn't add much, yet their effect is still talked about to this day.

Also, I'm not sure I actually agree too much when you say " Your main collectibles are basically all combat oriented", actually. I would say the "main collectibles" in the Metroid games are not extensions to power ups you already have, they are the new items you get. And considering that stuff like bombs facilitate exploration more than combat ...

Super Metroid has 10/17 of its upgrades as non-combat upgrades (including stuff like missiles and super missiles as upgrades), same with Zero Mission.

Yeah, my bad, I guess it is arbitrary. I just feel like chalking it up to Breath of the Wild seems a little odd and redundant, we've seen trends showing that almost all Nintendo software sells better than before on the Switch, so a remake selling about as well/maybe a little better lifetime than its original version really doesn't seem all that crazy, and pining it on a phenomena we haven't really seen happen except for maybe with Age of Calamity, is just strange imo.
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Well, that was mostly why I distinguished "collectibles" from "upgrades", upgrades being the main gameplay additions while "collectibles" being the expansions, which are indeed mostly combat oriented.

You're right in that this discussion is kinda off-topic, but like you I find the discussion interesting. Mostly because I started developing a pet peeve against people calling Hollow Knight in particular more of a "Vania" than a "Metroid", since I find that game leans way more heavily into the Metroid side of things
 
first drama thread?

i saw something recently somewhere that said nintendo wanted metroid to have the exploration of zelda and the platforming of mario.

i think this goes to the point of poor genre categories. "metroidvania" is nonsense unless youu're familiar with the nomenclature.

i mean i would even go as far to say castlevania's are far more combat focused than metroid is, and fixating on the least emphasized aspect of the game is understandably contentious.
 
NabiscoFelt said:
Well, that was mostly why I distinguished "collectibles" from "upgrades", upgrades being the main gameplay additions while "collectibles" being the expansions, which are indeed mostly combat oriented.

You're right in that this discussion is kinda off-topic, but like you I find the discussion interesting. Mostly because I started developing a pet peeve against people calling Hollow Knight in particular more of a "Vania" than a "Metroid", since I find that game leans way more heavily into the Metroid side of things
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Eh it's ok. Mostly I was saying that my original comment was a bit poorly worded and I can understand how people felt the need to reply. So my bad. Glad there's an understanding now :) .
 
AngryAlchemist said:
Not a correction, I already knew that and I think it is fair. Because A ) the point isn't that it won't beat the GB version on Switch (it absolutely will), or a put down of the games performance on Switch B ) I think a better comparison actually is with other Zelda remasters/remakes anyways, which usually show a small decline over the original, in which case Link's Awakening outselling the original two versions is actually pretty huge

As for the separate versions not being countable as one entry, I feel like that gets into "Game of the Year editions shouldn't count as the same game" territory. You can actually play the DX version on the original Gameboy, minus the color dungeon, it's not like a GBC exclusive as far as I know. Even if it was, I'm not sure the GB vs GBC argument is that worthwhile.

I will say GB's uncharacteristically large life makes it's accomplishment less comparable, but at the same time the point was to highlight how well the Switch version is doing to begin with.
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I disagree with counting the two together. The DX version could only be played on GBC. But fair enough - agree to disagree.
HK-47 said:
Yeah, which is why LA R beating it would be impressive. Though I’m generally not against later releases with extras on the same console being combined, like RE5 being combined with RE5 Gold. Though I guess it is a little weird, given the GB plus GBC oddness of that console and it’s abnormal lifespan.
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Well yes, I should have been clearer for both your sakes - I'm agreed that Link's Awakening has done very well on Switch. I wasn't disputing that at all. Like I've said, it's actually making its way to being one of the stronger selling Zelda titles yet.
 
Sejes said:
i saw something recently somewhere that said nintendo wanted metroid to have the exploration of zelda and the platforming of mario.
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So what you’re saying is, we should really be calling the genre Zeldario?

Hollow Knight is a great modern Zeldario game.
 
pld said:
This thread is entertaining.

popcorn-eating-popcorn.gif
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Indeed. :LOL:
 
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Okay, I KNOW Google searches aren't scientific, but according to Google Trends, Metroid is being searched the highest it's ever been since tracking began in 2004 right now.

158e3250d08f7b62e4278bb0e357cfd7.png
 
Seeing those search trends is incredible.
To think so many people did not know Metroid. May this inequity be washed away as a new Era of Enlightenment begins.
 
Mr_No_U said:
You know, Samus, we really are the Metroidvanias
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No, no no, it should go

"You know Samus, you really are The Last Metroid."

(Prefacing this with me not having finished the game yet as of this post, so the above is just a joke/pure conjecture on my part. But spoiler tagging nonetheless.)

Also it's about time we retire the term Metroidvania. It should be search/exploration-action game. Symphony of the Night only brought in stats and RPG elements to help inexperienced players cheese difficult bosses by grinding, but such aspects do not reflect all "Metroidvanias" in general. Hollow Knight even avoids the stats thing with it's badges or buff/anti-buff mechanic.

I might go a step further and think the classic style Castlevanias/Classicvanias felt like tighter games designwise as opposed to the more general IGAvanias. Maybe this is the reason I think so fondly of Order of Ecclessia and (Bloodstained) Curse of the Moon.
 
Really hoping people buy in (and by the looks of things people are)! The IP went quiet for so long but in the past few years Nintendo has really been putting more money and resources into it which makes me so hopeful. We got two new 2D games with Mercury Steam at the helm and Metroid Prime 4. Well we sorta have Prime 4 since it had to be rebooted while it was in development. But still we are getting a consistent flow of games again with the best space bounty hunter around. So I really hope people buy in so we can get more adventures with Samus.
 
Cantaim said:
Really hoping people buy in (and by the looks of things people are)! The IP went quiet for so long but in the past few years Nintendo has really been putting more money and resources into it which makes me so hopeful. [...]
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Definitely really hope it does super well. Metroid deserves it. That might just be me being biased toward what is basically my favorite video game series, but it is what it is.
I hope, as well, that the lesson taken is that Metroid doesn't need to be radically changed from the basic principles that made it; it just needs to understand itself and have the effort made to bring in that audience (all the "get gud" discourse around this brings to mind how Souls leaned into its own elements to form its audience).
SiG said:
[Overlord's note: the following spoiler section is a joke from someone who states they haven't finished Dread; having been unable to actually play it yet, that's the best preface I can give]


"You know Samus, you really are The Last Metroid."

(Prefacing this with me not having finished the game yet as of this post, so the above is just a joke/pure conjecture on my part. But spoiler tagging nonetheless.)
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Again, I haven't been able to play Dread yet (got the game, but no Switch yet), but this is basically how I envisioned the series continuing after Fusion, even though I recall seeing Sakamoto indicating otherwise. The announcement of Dread kind of made me apprehensive that they might close off that possibility.

Basically, it would give the series free reign on where to go forward, without feeling need to include the Metroid creatures every time, as, going forward and looking back, it would follow Samus, who would become the titular metroid. And the change could be reflected in gameplay, where health could be regenerated through leeching off enemy life force, just like a metroid would.

So, we'll see how it goes, and I'll maintain hope until such a time it is shattered.

But, yeah, how do I tell Nintendo this makes so much sense if it's not already too late?
 
Supreme Overlord said:
Definitely really hope it does super well. Metroid deserves it. That might just be me being biased toward what is basically my favorite video game series, but it is what it is.
I hope, as well, that the lesson taken is that Metroid doesn't need to be radically changed from the basic principles that made it; it just needs to understand itself and have the effort made to bring in that audience (all the "get gud" discourse around this brings to mind how Souls leaned into its own elements to form its audience).

Again, I haven't been able to play Dread yet (got the game, but no Switch yet), but this is basically how I envisioned the series continuing after Fusion, even though I recall seeing Sakamoto indicating otherwise. The announcement of Dread kind of made me apprehensive that they might close off that possibility.

Basically, it would give the series free reign on where to go forward, without feeling need to include the Metroid creatures every time, as, going forward and looking back, it would follow Samus, who would become the titular metroid. And the change could be reflected in gameplay, where health could be regenerated through leeching off enemy life force, just like a metroid would.

So, we'll see how it goes, and I'll maintain hope until such a time it is shattered.

But, yeah, how do I tell Nintendo this makes so much sense if it's not already too late?
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After beating Dread I will say it does feel like Mercury Steam and Nintendo do have a vision for the future of the series and how to lean on it's strengths. Not gonna get into any specific details since you said you haven't played it. But when I beat Dread the main feeling I got was that this was a game built by a team that loved the Metroid games that came before it. And wanted to add another classic entry into the series.

Also when you get your Switch I hope you enjoy Dread!
 
Cantaim said:
After beating Dread I will say it does feel like Mercury Steam and Nintendo do have a vision for the future of the series and how to lean on it's strengths. Not gonna get into any specific details since you said you haven't played it. But when I beat Dread the main feeling I got was that this was a game built by a team that loved the Metroid games that came before it. And wanted to add another classic entry into the series.

Also when you get your Switch I hope you enjoy Dread!
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There was talk about if Nintendo should just go ahead and buy MercurySteam given the quality of Metroid Dread. I'd say I'm all for it, but that also begs the question what will Next Level Games be handling from now on? More Luigi's Mansion games?
 
SiG said:
There was talk about if Nintendo should just go ahead and buy MercurySteam given the quality of Metroid Dread. I'd say I'm all for it, but that also begs the question what will Next Level Games be handling from now on? More Luigi's Mansion games?
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I mean, there still isn’t a Strikers sequel on Switch…
 
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