Nintendo has done everything in its power to make Metroid successful. The (morph) ball is in the market's court now

[Waluijob]

For the first time since I began daily tracking the Amazon Best Sellers of 2021 in Video Games, Metroid Dread has moved back one spot.

Yesterday, it was up to #30. It currently sits at #31. This is above the last time I reported, but it has not passed or dropped behind any additional Switch games since the time of my last post. It is behind Smash Bros Ultimate and ahead of Super Mario Odyssey and Mario Golf.

 

[doodlewhizz]

The rest of the industry whether from unreasonable uncertainty, or flat out poor execution can’t make female protagonists.
Nintendo has a big opportunity on their hands with Metroid as they have the only serious and established female protagonist in the industry. Dread’ success is hopefully the beginning of a push for Samus to takeover. Plus Nintendo has a huge percentage of the gamers that are women. I just feel that the stars are aligned for it especially since they’re transitioning their IP for movies as well.

Maybe I'm misreading something here but this seems a bit of a stretch. While not plentiful, good, serious female protagonists definitely exist outside of Samus.

 

[Galgavias]

Yeah, I think one of the major problems with Metroid (as well as other franchises in Nintendo's stable, like DK and StarFox), was that the reason the series was prone to take such a long break was for lack of a "home base" developer to shepherd the series. It finally looks like Samus is in good hands between Modern!Retro for Prime and the continued collab between Sakamoto's team and MercurySteam for 2D Metroid. Ditto DK and this "younger EAD team" leading the charge on that front.

I can only hope Fox is next on that front (...Next Level, pls!).

It does seem to have taken Nintendo a long time, what with development times lengthening and games costing more to make, for them to begin to figure out how to balance releases for all the big name series they own. It was why for the longest time I was on the sidelines encouraging them to expand their western development presence to help them maintain a steady stream of releases.

With the purchase of Next Level Games and recent partnerships with Mercury Steam and Way Forward, they're making good progress on that front I feel, but with so many of their series still in limbo (StarFox, F-Zero, Kid Icarus, Pikmin), there's still work to be done.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

I think we just need more of these games. [...]

I do think keeping Metroid in the public consciousness would help, certainly. And with more consistent releases, some amount of experimentation would probably be more accepted, but different key elements of "Metroid" would need to be remain present to ground it into the rest of the franchise (For instance, Fusion was more linear and plot-focused, but it had the oppressive atmosphere, an element of horror-lite, and, given your only ally is basically there to keep tabs on you, I'll give it some points toward isolation. And with knowing there will be more releases that will all be grounded into the feel and mechanics of Metroid, going more linear plot-focused for a game might not be looked at to unfavorably)

It would be awesome if Nintendo just bought MercurySteam and got them cranking out 2D Metroid games every 2-3 years. You don't even need to reinvent the engine each time. I think this would do wonders for the series and it would be harder for people to ignore if there was a catalogue of modern 2D Metroid games that were widely accepted as some of the best metroidvania games on the market.

I wasn't really jumping on the "purchase Mercury" train, but then the recent AnaitGames article about working conditions draws certain comparisons to Retro before that buyout. Of course, a number of factors make this less likely, but we've been discussing the situation and how it could play out -- such as a new studio to hire these employees -- over in the thread for that article.

Beyond that, there's the possibility the employees occasionally want to work on something else.

Dread is going to do great in NA.

5 million lifetime ww imo.

Prime 4 is going to do gangbusters.

I like your enthusiasm. Given how we know it's done in Japan, traditionally not Metroid's best market, Dread should be doing really well indeed.

The rest of the industry whether from unreasonable uncertainty, or flat out poor execution can’t make female protagonists.

While these issues do plague the industry, and have for some time, there are certainly female protagonists out there, and well-regarded ones at that; furthermore, to suggest Nintendo is necessarily top-of-the-line in this case might be a bit far, especially if you keep in mind certain previous attempts with Samus.

they're making good progress on that front I feel, but with so many of their series still in limbo (StarFox, F-Zero, Kid Icarus, Pikmin), there's still work to be done.

Give me a team that can actually do stuff and I'll save all these franchises.

More seriously, it hasn't been actually announced but Miyamoto did say ages ago that Pikmin is in development.
For Kid Icarus, I think Uprising on Switch would see success. A lot of people who got it before would probably do so again, especially with the promise of the controls being less cramped, in addition to a new audience.
I could be wrong, but not introducing a brand new Mario Kart seemed like the perfect opportunity to bring back one of the other racing franchises (F-Zero specifically in mind).

Metroid 1-4 should be released in a pack with this art:

Spoiler: art

 

[kimbo99]

Tried to get an OLED bundle with Dread at GameStop but it's been sold out. Seems like the game is selling well

 

[uncleoptimus]

Maybe I'm misreading something here but this seems a bit of a stretch. While not plentiful, good, serious female protagonists definitely exist outside of Samus.

Agreed. I haven't played their games yet, but right OTOH I had the notion that popular opinion lauded strong female characters like Aloy (Horizon), Ellie (TLOU), and (modern) Lara Croft.

... Def not plentiful tho. Maybe OP meant in the Nintendo-verse?

(follow-up thought) Considering the Smash Bros Ultimate roster now, and to be fair Nintendo does have some sturdy newer female leads.
Looking at Min Min, Twintelle (I know), Palutena, maybe the modern Zelda(s)? I haven't played their game so don't know if Pyra/Mythra apply as well.
I don't quite count Ribbon-Girl or the Inkling Girl since she is more like a blank template.

 

[GoGoDezmo]

Yeah, I think one of the major problems with Metroid (as well as other franchises in Nintendo's stable, like DK and StarFox), was that the reason the series was prone to take such a long break was for lack of a "home base" developer to shepherd the series. It finally looks like Samus is in good hands between Modern!Retro for Prime and the continued collab between Sakamoto's team and MercurySteam for 2D Metroid. Ditto DK and this "younger EAD team" leading the charge on that front.

I can only hope Fox is next on that front (...Next Level, pls!).

Yeah, as a DK fan, I absolutely feel this. Rare was DK's home for several years and the brand flourished under them, but once Rare was bought up by Microsoft, poor DK didn't really have a home to call his own anymore. Not to say Nintendo let DK flounder las much as Nintendo did Metroid, but it was definitely a dark period for DK fans until Retro stepped in. Poor Metroid fans had it even worse from 2010 to 2017.

MercurysSeam absolutely seems to know what they're doing at this point, and even if Nintendo doesn't end up buying them, I hope they and Nintendo keep their collaboration going. If we can get another 2D Metroid in, say, 3 to 4 years, that'd be excellent. Heck, if after Dread, Nintendo releases Prime 4 a year or two later, then MercurySteam follows that up with another 2D Metroid another 2 or so years after that, that could set the Metroid series into a perfect rhythm for the franchise-A Metroid game every 2-3 years, alternating between 2D and 2D with each release.

Metroid 1-4 should be released in a pack with this art:

Spoiler: art

Oh. Oh, that's fantastic. I need this on a shirt asap.

 

[TreIII]

It does seem to have taken Nintendo a long time, what with development times lengthening and games costing more to make, for them to begin to figure out how to balance releases for all the big name series they own. It was why for the longest time I was on the sidelines encouraging them to expand their western development presence to help them maintain a steady stream of releases.

With the purchase of Next Level Games and recent partnerships with Mercury Steam and Way Forward, they're making good progress on that front I feel, but with so many of their series still in limbo (StarFox, F-Zero, Kid Icarus, Pikmin), there's still work to be done.

Oh, there is work to be done, but I think the most important thing is that Nintendo took some serious time to really evaluate possible directions for the franchise before just locking things in. Not to dredge up the ensuing subject matter thereof, but in the end, Sakamoto and Team Ninja just weren't a good match for each other (it's good that Koei and Nintendo certainly found other ways to be fruitful, though). Next Level apparently had their own Metroid concept floating around, a decade ago, but it wasn't selected in the end. It would also take even more time before Sakamoto and MercurySteam would link up and produce some worthwhile fruit from their collaboration. But it was worth it!

So, while I can definitely understand the desire to see output increased (or just start up again, in the case of some of Ninty's other franchises), I at least applaud that they've taken a bit more time to really make sure the match-ups are a good fit. If Nintendo didn't care as much, we probably would have had the Prime 4 from the original Bamco Singapore arrangement by now, and who knows what damage a less than stellar revival of such an anticipated release might have done to the brand and its fanbase?

All that to say...I'm a patient guy. Don't bother bringing these franchises out of their "extended vacations" until we can be sure they're getting the same kind of TLC Samus is getting!

Yeah, as a DK fan, I absolutely feel this. Rare was DK's home for several years and the brand flourished under them, but once Rare was bought up by Microsoft, poor DK didn't really have a home to call his own anymore. Not to say Nintendo let DK flounder las much as Nintendo did Metroid, but it was definitely a dark period for DK fans until Retro stepped in. Poor Metroid fans had it even worse from 2010 to 2017.

It gets even more interesting with DK's case. As DK Vine put it best, it was a literal "battle for DK's soul" going on from that early to mid 00s era, with so many different possible directions, through various games, all vying for the chance to be picked as DK's path going forward. They even tried to have DK be poised as a bad guy again, in the Mario vs. DK series. But in the end, the Rare legacy won out handily, and that's why Diddy punched his ticket in Smash Brawl, Retro's Returns series reigned, and why the new EAD squad seems poised to honor Rare's legacy in their own way.

Couple that with K. Rool's proud return (and marketing making sure K. Rool has been present a LOT after his re-introduction!), and as a fan, it's been positively exciting to await what's next on that front.

 

[GoGoDezmo]

It gets even more interesting with DK's case. As DK Vine put it best, it was a literal "battle for DK's soul" going on from that early to mid 00s era, with so many different possible directions, through various games, all vying for the chance to be picked as DK's path going forward. They even tried to have DK be poised as a bad guy again, in the Mario vs. DK series. But in the end, the Rare legacy won out handily, and that's why Diddy punched his ticket in Smash Brawl, Retro's Returns series reigned, and why the new EAD squad seems poised to honor Rare's legacy in their own way.

Couple that with K. Rool's proud return (and marketing making sure K. Rool has been present a LOT after his re-introduction!), and as a fan, it's been positively exciting to await what's next on that front.

Yeah, it was an...interesting time. You had the Mario vs Donkey Kong series (having modern DK be a bad guy never quite sat right with me), the Bongo Games (Jungle Beat was a fun one off experiment, and I've never played the Konga games), Paon's peg climbing games (neat little games that kept the Rare aesthetic but sadly lacked the personality). I'm just glad that through it all Rare was allowed to make ports of the Country trilogy. It was those ports that actually introduced me to the series and gaming as a whole, so I'm immensely glad that it's Rare's vision that won through and was carried out going forward. If Nintendo ever wanted to bring back the core Jungle Beat gameplay (sans bongos) though, I'd be absolutely okay with that

I'm also glad that Metroid never had to go through such weird variations of the franchise. Other M was dropped by Nintendo real quick, so that exact style won't be revisited soon, and Federation Force was always supposed to be a fun little side thing (which really should have released AFTER Samus Returns). The 6 year silence was bad, absolutely, but at least everyone involved (Nintendo and the fans) knew what Metroid should be at that point.

 

[TonyBaduy]

Beyond that, there's the possibility the employees occasionally want to work on something else.

This is not an issue with Nintendo, Retro didn't do more Metroid because they wanted to do DK games and whatever they were working on that got cancelled. Nintendo allows that freedom to their devs.

 

[Deleted member 1896]

Let's be realistic - anything over 3 million lifetime would be unprecedented for the series and a phenomenal success.

2-3 million would still be excellent and enough to guarantee the series' future.

1-2 million won't kill the series.

Under 1 million would be deep trouble.

 

[GamerJM]

Not sure how relevant this is, but I was thinking the other day and I realized that I think Metroid post-Prime/Fusion is a lot less troubled in terms of getting games greenlit/developed than people give it credit for. When you include Other M and Federation Force, there's never really been a super long period of time without a Metroid game. And yeah, neither of those games are probably very good, but Nintendo internally views them as Metroid releases. There's 2011-2014 but that was the period of time when Nintendo was dealing with the growing pains of HD development and Retro was focused on Donkey Kong. Other than that there's been a pretty consistent release schedule of Metroid games since 2002. I think the franchise will be fine regardless of Dread's performance, unless it's disaster-levels.

 

[Terrell]

Hung on at #2 in Japan this week. Over 100K there now in physical sales.

Itshappening.gif

 

[Supreme Overlord]

This is not an issue with Nintendo, Retro didn't do more Metroid because they wanted to do DK games and whatever they were working on that got cancelled. Nintendo allows that freedom to their devs.

Indeed, but the context was regarding Nintendo purchasing the studio to have them pump out a new Metroid game every 2-3 years, which is negated if the studio wants to work on something else instead and is able to do so.

It's not so much that they wouldn't be allowed to work on something else instead, but that the idea of pinning plans for new 2D Metroid every few years on this not occurring might not be the strongest plan.

Not sure how relevant this is, but I was thinking the other day and I realized that I think Metroid post-Prime/Fusion is a lot less troubled in terms of getting games greenlit/developed than people give it credit for. When you include Other M and Federation Force, there's never really been a super long period of time without a Metroid game. And yeah, neither of those games are probably very good, but Nintendo internally views them as Metroid releases. There's 2011-2014 but that was the period of time when Nintendo was dealing with the growing pains of HD development and Retro was focused on Donkey Kong. Other than that there's been a pretty consistent release schedule of Metroid games since 2002. I think the franchise will be fine regardless of Dread's performance, unless it's disaster-levels.

I think part of the concern is less in whether the franchise continues in some form, and rather more what form that might be.

We just went nineteen years between (non-remake) 2D entries, though original plans for Other M would have shortened this to eight years; however, given different elements of that game, I'm not sure this actually solves the problem of form (Which I'll get to in a bit).

For a while there, the series got consistent releases in the first-person realm, in the form of the Prime trilogy and its spinoffs. Pinball and Hunters were within the release timeframe for the trilogy entries and wouldn't elicit much response of concern (Pinball clearly doesn't indicate the future direction of the franchise, and for any issues regarding the structure of Hunters, it was still in the time of consistent releases).

However, things take a turn at Other M. It throws off many of the trappings of the franchise (the oppressive atmosphere, isolation, overall gameplay loop) and replaces them with other elements that seem to be the intended direction of the franchise (Plot-focused linearity and everything that came with it). This game bombs and is widely-panned.
After enjoying a period of consistent release, t is six years before Metroid is seen again. And when it is, its resurfacing is Federation Force, a spinoff which doesn't fit with the trappings of the franchise. This didn't help people's concerns.

[It is at this point I will mention that, as far as the first-person fork of the franchise goes, Hunters to Corruption to Federation Force, along with the stated intent to put overt focus on Sylux, draws a line of games that could also elicit concern for the ongoing direction of the first-person segment]

This is really just a long, roundabout way of saying that, disregarding whether those games are good, they are also departures from the core of the series that could have heralded complete shifts in the series' focus going forward, in addition to not satisfying the same desires as the series proper.

 

[GamerJM]

Indeed, but the context was regarding Nintendo purchasing the studio to have them pump out a new Metroid game every 2-3 years, which is negated if the studio wants to work on something else instead and is able to do so.

It's not so much that they wouldn't be allowed to work on something else instead, but that the idea of pinning plans for new 2D Metroid every few years on this not occurring might not be the strongest plan.



I think part of the concern is less in whether the franchise continues in some form, and rather more what form that might be.

We just went nineteen years between (non-remake) 2D entries, though original plans for Other M would have shortened this to eight years; however, given different elements of that game, I'm not sure this actually solves the problem of form (Which I'll get to in a bit).

For a while there, the series got consistent releases in the first-person realm, in the form of the Prime trilogy and its spinoffs. Pinball and Hunters were within the release timeframe for the trilogy entries and wouldn't elicit much response of concern (Pinball clearly doesn't indicate the future direction of the franchise, and for any issues regarding the structure of Hunters, it was still in the time of consistent releases).

However, things take a turn at Other M. It throws off many of the trappings of the franchise (the oppressive atmosphere, isolation, overall gameplay loop) and replaces them with other elements that seem to be the intended direction of the franchise (Plot-focused linearity and everything that came with it). This game bombs and is widely-panned.
After enjoying a period of consistent release, t is six years before Metroid is seen again. And when it is, its resurfacing is Federation Force, a spinoff which doesn't fit with the trappings of the franchise. This didn't help people's concerns.

[It is at this point I will mention that, as far as the first-person fork of the franchise goes, Hunters to Corruption to Federation Force, along with the stated intent to put overt focus on Sylux, draws a line of games that could also elicit concern for the ongoing direction of the first-person segment]

This is really just a long, roundabout way of saying that, disregarding whether those games are good, they are also departures from the core of the series that could have heralded complete shifts in the series' focus going forward, in addition to not satisfying the same desires as the series proper.

I always got the impression that Other M wasn't Nintendo throwing up their hands and saying "Welp, pure traditional Metroid doesn't work anymore," and more Sakamoto having a weird vision for a game that most people just don't like. Federation Force is probably similarly not that, but rather Nintendo wanting to give NLG a more experimental project as a stopgap.

All of this is to say, I never really got the impression Nintendo ever lost faith in traditional Metroid as much as just their "ideas" for games in the Metroid universe strayed from what a traditional game in the series is like. And I still to this day think that if Sakamoto gets a weird idea for a game like he did with Other M, Nintendo would let him make that game instead of a traditional Metroid game.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

I always got the impression that Other M wasn't Nintendo throwing up their hands and saying "Welp, pure traditional Metroid doesn't work anymore," and more Sakamoto having a weird vision for a game that most people just don't like. Federation Force is probably similarly not that, but rather Nintendo wanting to give NLG a more experimental project as a stopgap.

All of this is to say, I never really got the impression Nintendo ever lost faith in traditional Metroid as much as just their "ideas" for games in the Metroid universe strayed from what a traditional game in the series is like. And I still to this day think that if Sakamoto gets a weird idea for a game like he did with Other M, Nintendo would let him make that game instead of a traditional Metroid game.

I don't disagree with that. Other M was originally supposed to be more of a 2D experience, but beyond that everything was as Sakamoto wanted it; beyond that shift in moment-to-moment gameplay, the game was fashioned to his vision, and it was those elements that particularly diverged or led to divergence in other parts. I don't think the rest of Nintendo probably cared too much about these elements. These were driven by Sakamoto's vision, not some corporate mandate, which only points further to it being the intended direction for the franchise to go.

(For as much as people talk bad about the moment-to-moment gameplay of Other M, I do think it had potential. But it also wasn't the element directly driven by Sakamoto's vision)

I'm not sure how much Federation Force was a product of corporate Nintendo wanting a stopgap -- especially with Samus Returns in the works and with the pitch from Next Level Games-- and how much it was Tanabe's vision. As I noted, the general direction of that Metroid branch seemed to be trending away from different elements traditionally associated with the franchise, and Federation Force seems in line with a lot of that.

So I think some of the concern was whether the people steering Metroid would take it away from its core. That was certainly a concern I had for the franchise.

That said, and more to your original point (I apologize for diverging so far from it) there was also definitely a lot of angst going around regarding the loss of Metroid entirely, and what happened with Other M didn't help with that.

 

[Phantoon]

Tanabe in 2015 said the following about Federation Force:

"Ever since I was working on the Metroid Prime series, I had this idea to start work on something other than just focusing on Samus to put an emphasis on the Federation Force – their battle against the Space Pirates as I mentioned briefly in the E3 Nintendo Direct. I didn’t quite have the chance to work on a project like that for quite a while, but when I learned about the development of the new 3DS and the hardware has a C-stick, I thought this could be a great idea to implement or come up with a first-person shooting game for the hardware."

It's a take for the Positive Unpopular Opinions thread, but Federation Force was a good game. Unfortunately it came at the wrong time and everybody had worked themselves into a shoot over the future of Metroid. It's Metroid Prime's controls, with some cooperative multiplayer. It suffers from the reverse Belda effect - if it had been called something else (Antro?) people would have looked at it for what it is, not what it isn't.

 

[DJBlitzkrieg]

Do we have estimates of worldwide sales so far? it seems to be doing good in japan at least.

 

[TreIII]

It's a take for the Positive Unpopular Opinions thread, but Federation Force was a good game. Unfortunately it came at the wrong time and everybody had worked themselves into a shoot over the future of Metroid.

Overall an...okay game, in my opinion, but I don't think it was just a matter of bad timing: first impressions are everything. And to say Fed Force was not set up for success is an understatement.

I don't think it would have gone over well, even if the brand was in a much healthier state back then, let alone when fans were so "emotionally raw".

 

[Phantoon]

I can't help but think that if we weren't of the opinion that Other M had murdered the franchise then we'd have been more receptive to a fun spin off. If Other M had been a Dread style success then the various suspicions that sank Federation Force wouldn't have been there. The fans wanted something that showed Nintendo had the ability and interest to do a proper Metroid; they didn't get that and it didn't go well.

Look at it with distance and its main sins are: 1) it's chibi and 2) it's not a metroidvania. Well, seeing as Nintendo still make really good metroidvanias, 2 isn't really a problem now.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

I can't help but think that if we weren't of the opinion that Other M had murdered the franchise then we'd have been more receptive to a fun spin off. If Other M had been a Dread style success then the various suspicions that sank Federation Force wouldn't have been there. The fans wanted something that showed Nintendo had the ability and interest to do a proper Metroid; they didn't get that and it didn't go well.

Look at it with distance and its main sins are: 1) it's chibi and 2) it's not a metroidvania. Well, seeing as Nintendo still make really good metroidvanias, 2 isn't really a problem now.

It’s also fairly meh. Like it’s not BAD, It’s just not particularly good either.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

I can't help but think that if we weren't of the opinion that Other M had murdered the franchise then we'd have been more receptive to a fun spin off. If Other M had been a Dread style success then the various suspicions that sank Federation Force wouldn't have been there. The fans wanted something that showed Nintendo had the ability and interest to do a proper Metroid; they didn't get that and it didn't go well.

Look at it with distance and its main sins are: 1) it's chibi and 2) it's not a metroidvania. Well, seeing as Nintendo still make really good metroidvanias, 2 isn't really a problem now.

This is true to some extent, but Other M just having better sales wouldn't stop internet fandoms from assuming that Metroid might be dead, a new mainline game would have. Which, Other M being a bigger success probably would have made happen faster, but it's a hypothetical so we really have no way of knowing. Even Other M selling better wouldn't guarantee this, because mainline Metroid doesn't really have a "home". I'd even go as far as to say that if Dread is going to sell lifetime as well as some people expect here (3.5 - 5m, with 3.5 honestly being a goal which looks pretty easy to accomplish), it would have been literally impossible for Other M to sell that. Remember, by the time the Wii was fading, Zelda was doing those kind of numbers. This would basically make Metroid as popular as late-era Wii Zelda games, which just isn't realistic.

I think a much better example is that if Samus Returns released before Federation Force somehow, someway ... we wouldn't have this problem. Like even if hypothetically Federation Force was the first Metroid game we got on the Switch, the fact that it would be releasing after not only Samus Returns's release and Metroid Prime 4's announcement.

 

[Leo]

I don't think Federation Force would have been successful even if it was released today, after Dread, when the franchise is on the spotlight. The appeal just isn't there for the fans of the franchise, nothing about it says "if you like Metroid you will like this", it alienated its audience.

It should have been called something different, or used another more popular/casual franchise as a template. Maybe Star Fox would have been a better fit with the cartoonish artstyle. Hell, a Mario shooter would have faired much better.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

I don't think Federation Force would have been successful even if it was released today, after Dread, when the franchise is on the spotlight. The appeal just isn't there for the fans of the franchise, nothing about it says "if you like Metroid you will like this", it alienated its audience.

It should have been called something different, or used another more popular/casual franchise as a template. Maybe Star Fox would have been a better fit with the cartoonish artstyle. Hell, a Mario shooter would have faired much better.

Or just, like, make it a new IP lol

 

[E.Gadd]

I wonder if they'd consider reviving Prime Pinball and Prime Hunters?

I kinda hope they do. You know, to keep the Metroid brand name on folks minds during the long wait between Prime 4 and Metroid 6.

I would advocate changing "Prime Hunters" to "Dread Hunters" though, since it sounds way cooler.

 

[Leo]

I wonder if they'd consider reviving Prime Pinball and Prime Hunters?

I kinda hope they do. You know, to keep the Metroid brand name on folks minds during the long wait between Prime 4 and Metroid 6.

I would advocate changing "Prime Hunters" to "Dread Hunters" though, since it sounds way cooler.

They still have the Prime remaster, possible remasters of Prime 2 and 3 and a possible port if Samus Returns, so I don't think they will be resourcing to spin offs anytime soon. If anything they have to be careful not to flood the market with Metroid games.

 

[Phendrift]

I don't think Federation Force would have been successful even if it was released today, after Dread, when the franchise is on the spotlight. The appeal just isn't there for the fans of the franchise, nothing about it says "if you like Metroid you will like this", it alienated its audience.

It should have been called something different, or used another more popular/casual franchise as a template. Maybe Star Fox would have been a better fit with the cartoonish artstyle. Hell, a Mario shooter would have faired much better.

I don’t think it would’ve pissed people off like it did if it released today, but yes you’re right.

As a Metroid fan there’s nothing appealing about it to me. I don’t like the art style for the series, the federation is by far the least interesting part of Metroid lore, and the genre isn’t appealing either.

It’s really best served as a multiplayer mode in an existing Metroid game.

 

[E.Gadd]

They still have the Prime remaster, possible remasters of Prime 2 and 3 and a possible port if Samus Returns, so I don't think they will be resourcing to spin offs anytime soon. If anything they have to be careful not to flood the market with Metroid games.

I'm clearly still very much in my post-Dread honeymoon phase, I hadn't really even considered the too much Metroid, too quickly angle.

 

[Lovecatt]

Edit: woops wrong thread

Ot: yes Metroid yes success

 

[TreIII]

It should have been called something different, or used another more popular/casual franchise as a template. Maybe Star Fox would have been a better fit with the cartoonish artstyle.

It's funny, because this was my EXACT thought, after a recent revisiting of the game, some months ago. And it only intensified my desire that Next Level would do a Star Fox game next. There's some really nice ideas FedForce has that could've lent itself well to a StarFox game, with the squad-based co-op PvE focus.

Obviously, that wasn't going to happen at that point in time, because Miyamoto was shopping around what would later become StarFox Zero. But it makes me wonder what could've been...and even more so what could be!

As a Metroid fan there’s nothing appealing about it to me. I don’t like the art style for the series, the federation is by far the least interesting part of Metroid lore, and the genre isn’t appealing either.

Now, I'll say this much.

I'll always appreciate what Tanabe, Retro and others have tried to do with the Prime line and actually building up an "EU" of the Metroid setting. Because there's so much potential there with all the various races and settings that have been introduced. I'll even say that I still await to see EXACTLY what Tanabe and co. will do with Sylux after all these years.

Having said all that, though? I'll always be disappointed that the Federation ended up being depicted as such a human-centric faction in the Prime games, when a number of things in the extended lore showcased that it should be a multicultural coalition involving a number of alien races.

Like how we going to have a number of games that loop in or outright focus on the Federation, and someone like Chairman Keaton (who appeared in both the non-canon SM comic and the canon ZM manga) not show up once?

Missed opportunities, at the very least~!

 

[Phendrift]

It's funny, because this was my EXACT thought, after a recent revisiting of the game, some months ago. And it only intensified my desire that Next Level would do a Star Fox game next. There's some really nice ideas FedForce has that could've lent itself well to a StarFox game, with the squad-based co-op PvE focus.

Obviously, that wasn't going to happen at that point in time, because Miyamoto was shopping around what would later become StarFox Zero. But it makes me wonder what could've been...and even more so what could be!


Now, I'll say this much.

I'll always appreciate what Tanabe, Retro and others have tried to do with the Prime line and actually building up an "EU" of the Metroid setting. Because there's so much potential there with all the various races and settings that have been introduced. I'll even say that I still await to see EXACTLY what Tanabe and co. will do with Sylux after all these years.

Having said all that, though? I'll always be disappointed that the Federation ended up being depicted as such a human-centric faction in the Prime games, when a number of things in the extended lore showcased that it should be a multicultural coalition involving a number of alien races.

Like how we going to have a number of games that loop in or outright focus on the Federation, and someone like Chairman Keaton (who appeared in both the non-canon SM comic and the canon ZM manga) not show up once?

Missed opportunities, at the very least~!

Agreed, the Prime Federation is just plain boring.

 

[Dinoman96]

To be fair, speaking purely of the games and not ancillery media like instruction booklets and mangas, "mainline" Federation isn't that interesting either. All we've seen in games like Other M and Samus Returns are just boring humans too.

 

[SuperFakerBros]

To be fair, speaking purely of the games and not ancillery media like instruction booklets and mangas, "mainline" Federation isn't that interesting either. All we've seen in games like Other M and Samus Returns are just boring humans too.

I know you're a dinoman but you didn't need to call us humans boring

 

[TreIII]

Agreed, the Prime Federation is just plain boring.

It's one of the biggest things I hope Retro and Tanabe "make amends for" in Prime 4 and succeeding titles.

Again, there's so much potential there. Like I honestly hope that Sylux actually has a legit reason for his hatred of the Federation (no matter how poignant or petty it may be), and it could be a way to put a critical eye on an institution that, while largely good, has always had some shady, if not outright rotten aspects to it.

To be fair, speaking purely of the games and not ancillery media like instruction booklets and mangas, "mainline" Federation isn't that interesting either. All we've seen in games like Other M and Samus Returns are just boring humans too.

I don't disagree, my Saurian brother, but my point is...barring Other M, no mainline Metroid game went so far with its attempt at worldbuilding and NPC character/faction development as the Prime games do.

So I "grade" the Prime games a bit harsher, as a result.

 

[Sejes]

no mainline Metroid game went so far with its attempt at worldbuilding and NPC character/faction development as the Prime games do.

So I "grade" the Prime games a bit harsher, as a result.

prime 2 did it right. prime 3 jumped the shark.

speaking of prime 3, could the ||mother brain like computers|| in that be a a reference to the ones in dread? seeing as how that game had mentioned dread by name.

 

[Aurc]

prime 2 did it right. prime 3 jumped the shark.

speaking of prime 3, could the ||mother brain like computers|| in that be a a reference to the ones in dread? seeing as how that game had mentioned dread by name.

Spoiler

The Central Units are more of a Mother Brain reference, being that they use the same turret and ring defenses that she does. The Chozo created both Mother Brain, and the Central Units. I think the Aurora Units from the Prime games are implied to be the Federation's attempt at reverse-engineering what the Chozo did with Mother Brain, but don't quote me on that.

Additionally, when Samus absorbs a Central Unit's energy in order to activate the Omega Cannon, there's the obvious parallel with the end of Super, in which the infant Metroid drained Mother Brain's energy, and subsequently gave Samus the Hyper Beam.

 

[Sejes]

Spoiler

The Central Units are more of a Mother Brain reference, being that they use the same turret and ring defenses that she does. The Chozo created both Mother Brain, and the Central Units. I think the Aurora Units from the Prime games are implied to be the Federation's attempt at reverse-engineering what the Chozo did with Mother Brain, but don't quote me on that.

Additionally, when Samus absorbs a Central Unit's energy in order to activate the Omega Cannon, there's the obvious parallel with the end of Super, in which the infant Metroid drained Mother Brain's energy, and subsequently gave Samus the Hyper Beam.

i love that. it makes good sci fi sense to engineer a brain for a computer. given what we know now about how much data brains and DNA can hold.

 

[Aurc]

Lore-wise, it's interesting to note that between the endings of Super, Fusion, and Dread, Samus

Spoiler

has now been saved from certain death by an external entity, three times in a row.

The infant Metroid in Super.

The SA-X in Fusion when battling the Omega Metroid, and then the Etecoons and Dachoras, piloting her ship and picking her up from the doomed station.

Quiet Robe X in Dread.

If you expand it further and count remakes, you can also say that the Chozo / Ruins Test saved her at the end of Zero Mission (granting Samus her fully powered suit, and enabling her to escape from the Space Pirate Mother Ship), and that the infant Metroid saved her from Ridley, at the end of Samus Returns.

 

[Kreese]

Let's be realistic - anything over 3 million lifetime would be unprecedented for the series and a phenomenal success.

2-3 million would still be excellent and enough to guarantee the series' future.

1-2 million won't kill the series.

Under 1 million would be deep trouble.

It's going to do even better than that. It will hang around the charts for a while in NA.

 

[Clix]

I’ve always considered Metroid a non linear exploration based run n gun

Like since I was a kid. Sorry

 

[TreIII]

prime 2 did it right. prime 3 jumped the shark.

Agreed.

Though even there, I'd say it's really only the Feddies that really bring things down. The other Hunters (especially Rundas-bro), the races on the other planets, as well as the Pirate Homeworld? I liked all that. A bit too much for one game, certainly, but I liked it.

Hopefully, Prime 4, they'll go back to focusing on one world and two races max!

 

[Suiseiseki]

Shoot around and getting lost, the video game.

I think that's my genre for this.

 

[Gashead]

Lore-wise, it's interesting to note that between the endings of Super, Fusion, and Dread, Samus

Spoiler

has now been saved from certain death by an external entity, three times in a row.

The infant Metroid in Super.

The SA-X in Fusion when battling the Omega Metroid, and then the Etecoons and Dachoras, piloting her ship and picking her up from the doomed station.

Quiet Robe X in Dread.

If you expand it further and count remakes, you can also say that the Chozo / Ruins Test saved her at the end of Zero Mission (granting Samus her fully powered suit, and enabling her to escape from the Space Pirate Mother Ship), and that the infant Metroid saved her from Ridley, at the end of Samus Returns.

The real metroid

Spoiler

is the friends we made along the way.

 

[Deleted member 22]

Can't wait for dem numbers.

 

[Aurc]

The real metroid

Spoiler

is the friends we made along the way.

Spoiler

That unironically seems to be the central theming. The Chozo saved Samus when she was a child, so she vowed to protect the galaxy. She saved the infant Metroid, it saved her back. She saved the Etecoons and Dachoras, they saved her back. The only ambiguous factor would be why SA-X and Quiet Robe X saved her, but I prefer the ambiguity there, to be honest.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

Tanabe in 2015 said the following about Federation Force:

"Ever since I was working on the Metroid Prime series, I had this idea to start work on something other than just focusing on Samus to put an emphasis on the Federation Force – their battle against the Space Pirates as I mentioned briefly in the E3 Nintendo Direct. I didn’t quite have the chance to work on a project like that for quite a while, but when I learned about the development of the new 3DS and the hardware has a C-stick, I thought this could be a great idea to implement or come up with a first-person shooting game for the hardware."

It's a take for the Positive Unpopular Opinions thread, but Federation Force was a good game. Unfortunately it came at the wrong time and everybody had worked themselves into a shoot over the future of Metroid. It's Metroid Prime's controls, with some cooperative multiplayer. It suffers from the reverse Belda effect - if it had been called something else (Antro?) people would have looked at it for what it is, not what it isn't.

It's interesting he needed the new 3DS hardware before this could be a consideration, considering he's attached to Hunters back on the DS. Federation Force also cemented for me that there's been a bit of an overemphasis on Space Pirates, as if there can be no greater threat to the Federation, especially when the aforementioned Hunters has other potential forces to go up against, such as the Kriken.

Having never had a handheld console, I can't speak personally as to the quality of Federation Force, but everything I've seen has pointed to it being a potential decent experience with friends, but overly mediocre for one individual.

I can't help but think that if we weren't of the opinion that Other M had murdered the franchise then we'd have been more receptive to a fun spin off. If Other M had been a Dread style success then the various suspicions that sank Federation Force wouldn't have been there. The fans wanted something that showed Nintendo had the ability and interest to do a proper Metroid; they didn't get that and it didn't go well.

Look at it with distance and its main sins are: 1) it's chibi and 2) it's not a metroidvania. Well, seeing as Nintendo still make really good metroidvanias, 2 isn't really a problem now.

I'm not sure I agree. If Other M had been a huge success, that probably would have made fans -- who were largely not fond of Other M -- more angsty regarding the future direction of the franchise. Adding another spinoff that disregards all the typical attributes associated with Metroid probably wouldn't have eased concerns too much, especially since, as noted earlier, the first-person branch of the franchise also showed signs of potentially going away from those attributes in general.

I think most of the game's sins were more in going entirely away from those attributes people look for in Metroid -- aside from the Metroidvania structure, this could include a more moody and isolated experience, oppressive atmosphere, more horror-lite feel, et cetera --, of which a Metroid game might be able to ignore some as long as it retains others (Your chibi point fits into this -- and the reasoning for that choice didn't make much sense, given Hunters on the DS and even E.X. Troopers on 3DS). A well-timed horror-based Federation game, for instance, might find interest among the fanbase.

That said, calling it Metroid Prime didn't help it. Perhaps tagging it as being in that universe would be warranted, but the game simply doesn't fit absolutely anything people are looking for in a Metroid game.

Maybe Star Fox would have been a better fit with the cartoonish artstyle. Hell, a Mario shooter would have faired much better.

A Star Fox spinoff following some of the basic ideas might work, though it would still need major retooling, and there would certainly be backlash.

I wonder if they'd consider reviving Prime Pinball and Prime Hunters?

I kinda hope they do. You know, to keep the Metroid brand name on folks minds during the long wait between Prime 4 and Metroid 6.

I would advocate changing "Prime Hunters" to "Dread Hunters" though, since it sounds way cooler.

I once considered what makes a Metroid game Metroid and thought that Hunters could probably drop the Prime name and be retooled into a subseries something more akin to your usual experience but with some focus more on different story elements related to Hunters (which would likely have to sacrifice some typical Metroid elements at times, but hold onto others)

 

[Phantoon]

I'm not sure I agree. If Other M had been a huge success, that probably would have made fans -- who were largely not fond of Other M -- more angsty regarding the future direction of the franchise.

My hypothetical scenario was that that universe's Other M was actually good. Sales weren't what annoyed Metroid fans about Other M. If we'd had a "Metroid Dread style success" was about the game quality. We have no idea how much Dread has sold anyway. That said, if this hypothetical great Other M sold as well as our one did Metroid fans would still be freaking out about Federation Force, so I'll modify my argument to "if Other M had 1) not been cack and 2) sold decently then Federation Force would've gotten a fair shake"

 

[Supreme Overlord]

My hypothetical scenario was that that universe's Other M was actually good. Sales weren't what annoyed Metroid fans about Other M. If we'd had a "Metroid Dread style success" was about the game quality. We have no idea how much Dread has sold anyway. That said, if this hypothetical great Other M sold as well as our one did Metroid fans would still be freaking out about Federation Force, so I'll modify my argument to "if Other M had 1) not been cack and 2) sold decently then Federation Force would've gotten a fair shake"

Sales were not what annoyed Metroid fans about Other M, but they did play into the idea that the game had killed the franchise. But, of course, the big problem was the game's quality and overall direction.

Your modified argument has more ground. Had Other M not been guano and had it adhered to a good portion of what denotes the typical Metroid elements, Federation Force probably would not have been met with the same level of vitriol, especially so if this nonexistent, improved version of Other M had sold decently.

I maintain that fans probably would not have much cared for Federation Force, given my earlier points regarding its complete lack of fitting into the trappings and expectations of Metroid -- which might have been further mitigated by simply not explicitly calling it Metroid--, but in this hypothetical scenario it probably would not have elicited the same level of fulmination.

 

[TreIII]

I once considered what makes a Metroid game Metroid and thought that Hunters could probably drop the Prime name and be retooled into a subseries something more akin to your usual experience but with some focus more on different story elements related to Hunters (which would likely have to sacrifice some typical Metroid elements at times, but hold onto others)

In a lot of respects, it's unfortunate what happened to Hunters. Among the first of its kind when it came to being a "Hero Shooter", and only seemed to be truly limited by the DS in what it could do. But now, was seemingly just a flash in the pan, in the grand scheme of things.

Even now, I still think there was potential there that could've been explored, if it got a sequel on Wii U, or maybe was the project Tanabe pursued on 3DS instead of Fed Force. But since Splatoon blew up on Wii U and Switch, instead, I guess Ninty won't be in need of another shooter in their stable anytime in the near future.

 

[Phendrift]

In a lot of respects, it's unfortunate what happened to Hunters. Among the first of its kind when it came to being a "Hero Shooter", and only seemed to be truly limited by the DS in what it could do. But now, was seemingly just a flash in the pan, in the grand scheme of things.

Even now, I still think there was potential there that could've been explored, if it got a sequel on Wii U, or maybe was the project Tanabe pursued on 3DS instead of Fed Force. But since Splatoon blew up on Wii U and Switch, instead, I guess Ninty won't be in need of another shooter in their stable anytime in the near future.

Really do think “ hunters mode” would be a great little multiplayer addition to prime 4 or even remastered prime 1