Pre-Release Nintendo has done everything in its power to make Metroid successful. The (morph) ball is in the market's court now

[Skittzo]

If that’s the floor for Dread we’re in for a big success for the series. I’m guessing around ~2 million right now?

Amazon US shouldn't be used to be representative of worldwide sales.

 

[Slash]

Amazon US shouldn't be used to be representative of worldwide sales.

Fair enough. It's also outpacing Mario Golf in the UK too, though.

 

[HK-47]

I don’t know, the interest for a 2D Zelda remake isn’t comparable to a brand new entry in a dormant franchise for 20 years. Granted, I don’t remember how much that sold either lol

5.49 million last count. Zelda is a far bigger franchise and BotW has helped push the numbers of all the other Zeldas on the system. To put it in perspective, LA Remake has a chance to be the best selling top down Zelda ever. It is only a million from LoZ (though the 6.51 for LoZ doesn’t include VC sales, which are a mystery for everything I believe). It’ll probably pass the original LA+DX sitting at 6 million.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

I mean, if you insist...

[Snip]

This is an intriguing and in-depth topic that I can definitely see why you might be concerned about it overtaking the thread. While there is also a legitimate connection to the topic at hand, it almost seems like it could sustain a discussion all its own.

All he is describing here is things you do while "adventuring". In other words it seems to me he is saying the [focus] of the game is exploration, but he did NOT say shooting wasnt core gameplay. As proof, try beating Metroid Prime without shooting.

It looks like we're jumping back on the shooter conversation, so I'll hop in.

I don't really find this compelling evidence. Good luck making your way through the Zelda series without attacking things with your sword, but you'd probably be hard pressed to find someone calling Zelda a sword-and-sorcery hack-'n-slash or insisting on how core to the experience slashing at things is.

If you were to ask people what the core of Metroid as a series is, you'd probably find them explaining the core gameplay loop, the adventuring through an oppressive environment, picking up upgrades, trekking back through, adventuring and finding your way to new areas. Shooting is secondary to this.
This is the core gameplay Metroid codified, which people look for in a metroidvania.

For instance, I recently pointed to a particular shooter to try to illustrate some element of how a third-person 3D Metroid might work. I wasn't exactly clear on how my example fit into the broader scheme, and as such was rightly called to task on it.

Because, despite being known as a good shooter and despite having certain elements that could be drawn as similarities, the example -- as with most any, if not absolutely any, shooter -- completely lacks the core of Metroid. The connotation of shooter might point to an element you use to aid in making your way through the game world, but it completely ignores to core identity of Metroid as a series.

 

[MisterSpo]

5.49 million last count. Zelda is a far bigger franchise and BotW has helped push the numbers of all the other Zeldas on the system. To put it in perspective, LA Remake has a chance to be the best selling top down Zelda ever. It is only a million from LoZ (though the 6.51 for LoZ doesn’t include VC sales, which are a mystery for everything I believe). It’ll probably pass the original LA+DX sitting at 6 million.

It might have passed or be close to 6 million already - 5.49 million was the sales tally 6 months ago, though I've no idea how its sales slowed over time. It is the 6th best selling individual Zelda release and the 6th Zelda title to cross the 5 million mark, so it's performed well versus the historical sales range for Zelda.

It would be great if Dread ends up performing similarly. Hopefully the first quarter figures for Dread are in the 3 million range. I'd expect the game to be quite front-loaded, but that'd take it to the best-selling title in the series straight away.

 

[HK-47]

I think we would have gotten an updated number in the summer financial report if it had sold enough to breach 6 million.

 

[MisterSpo]

I think we would have gotten an updated number in the summer financial report if it had sold enough to breach 6 million.

We almost always only get updates if a title sells over 1 million units in a reporting period (whether that's a quarter, first half, or full financial year being reported), so we may never actually get an update for Link's Awakening. Unless it manages to leg it out and shift another million in the current financial year.

 

[HK-47]

We almost always only get updates if a title sells over 1 million units in a reporting period (whether that's a quarter, first half, or full financial year being reported), so we may never actually get an update for Link's Awakening. Unless it manages to leg it out and shift another million in the current financial year.

There is always the White Papers. Also technically it is the 6th Zelda game to cross 5 million, if we don’t combine LA and DX. Link’s Crossbow Training managed it.

 

[Skittzo]

There is always the White Papers. Also technically it is the 6th Zelda game to cross 5 million, if we don’t combine LA and DX. Link’s Crossbow Training managed it.

Wasn't the 2020 CESA white paper delayed indefinitely or something?

 

[HK-47]

Wasn't the 2020 CESA white paper delayed indefinitely or something?

It was delayed. That is all we know.

 

[SpaceCrystal]

What? It is a shooter. Shooting is core to the gameplay.

No, it isn't. That's like calling something like Cuphead & the entire Contra & Rockman/Mega Man series shooters.

Call these kind of games for what they are: Action, run-&-gun platformers.

 

[Simba1]

Did anyone predict that Luigi's Mansion 3 and Splatoon 2 would sell over 10 million and BOTW would outsell a mainline Pokemon?

I mean Splatoon 1 sold 5m on Wii U, so it was generally expected that Splatoon 2 will sell 10m+ on Switch,
on other hand most people also though that Mario Maker 2 would also be 10m+ seller.

 

[Tangerine_Cookie]

I'm definitely seeing a bunch of people that are jumping on 2D Metroid thanks to Dread; that had never played 2D Metroid before, in my immediate circles.

 

[pld]

on other hand most people also though that Mario Maker 2 would also be 10m+ seller.

It was in my heart.

 

[Deleted user]

I don't really find this compelling evidence. Good luck making your way through the Zelda series without attacking things with your sword, but you'd probably be hard pressed to find someone calling Zelda a sword-and-sorcery hack-'n-slash or insisting on how core to the experience slashing at things is.

The thing with Zelda though is that you can do many actions without using your sword. Like in OOT you can reflect Ganondorf's attack with a bottle.

If you were to ask people what the core of Metroid as a series is, you'd probably find them explaining the core gameplay loop, the adventuring through an oppressive environment, picking up upgrades, trekking back through, adventuring and finding your way to new areas. Shooting is secondary to this.
This is the core gameplay Metroid codified, which people look for in a metroidvania.

For instance, I recently pointed to a particular shooter to try to illustrate some element of how a third-person 3D Metroid might work. I wasn't exactly clear on how my example fit into the broader scheme, and as such was rightly called to task on it.

Because, despite being known as a good shooter and despite having certain elements that could be drawn as similarities, the example -- as with most any, if not absolutely any, shooter -- completely lacks the core of Metroid. The connotation of shooter might point to an element you use to aid in making your way through the game world, but it completely ignores to core identity of Metroid as a series.

Adventuring is what you do in the game, I know , but shooting is core to the game, so is jumping. So you could also call Metroid a platformer. The point is it is all of them. So if someone says....

(1) "Metroid is NOT a Platformer" I would disagree.
(2) "Metroid is NOT an Adventure game" I would disagree.
(3) "Metroid is NOT a Shooter" I would disagree.

So anyone who calls Metroid a Shooter/Adventure game/Platformer, I would 100% agree with them. But since shooting is a core mechanic with Metroid, I just narrow it down to "shooter". I'm NOT saying Metroid is NOT an adventure game. I'm just calling it a shooter for simplicity. I do it with other games too. I call StarFox a shooter, Zaxxon a shooter, Halo a shooter and Jet Force Gemini a shooter. But they are more than that, but in casual conversation I wont describe Jet Force Gemini a shooter/adventure/platformer in every sentence, I just narrow it down to shooter for simplicity.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Amazon US shouldn't be used to be representative of worldwide sales.

Lol yes, this is the point I apparently failed to make.

 

[Waluijob]

Metroid Dread is now up to #39 on Amazon US Best Sellers for Video Games in 2021. This is ahead of Super Mario Odysey and Mario Golf, a 2021 release.

3D World is still the top Switch game, Skyward Sword, Animal Crossing, Ring Fit, Snap, Just Dance 2021, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, BOTW, and Smash are all still ahead of it.

 

[Deleted user]

Metroid Dread is now up to #39 on Amazon US Best Sellers for Video Games in 2021.

 

[SuperFakerBros]

The thing with Zelda though is that you can do many actions without using your sword. Like in OOT you can reflect Ganondorf's attack with a bottle.




Adventuring is what you do in the game, I know , but shooting is core to the game, so is jumping. So you could also call Metroid a platformer. The point is it is all of them. So if someone says....

(1) "Metroid is NOT a Platformer" I would disagree.
(2) "Metroid is NOT an Adventure game" I would disagree.
(3) "Metroid is NOT a Shooter" I would disagree.

So anyone who calls Metroid a Shooter/Adventure game/Platformer, I would 100% agree with them. But since shooting is a core mechanic with Metroid, I just narrow it down to "shooter". I'm NOT saying Metroid is NOT an adventure game. I'm just calling it a shooter for simplicity. I do it with other games too. I call StarFox a shooter, Zaxxon a shooter, Halo a shooter and Jet Force Gemini a shooter. But they are more than that, but in casual conversation I wont describe Jet Force Gemini a shooter/adventure/platformer in every sentence, I just narrow it down to shooter for simplicity.

But you have to understand that almost no one else would ever describe those games that way

 

[Jaded Alyx]

You could probably ask 50 people who play videogames to name 50 "shooters" and I doubt a single one would say "metroid", as in 2D metroid.

 

[ILikeFeet]

You could probably ask 50 people who play videogames to name 50 "shooters" and I doubt a single one would say "metroid", as in 2D metroid.

if Nintendo corrected that, maybe the series will reach crazy highs

time for Hunters 2

 

[byDoS]

if Nintendo corrected that, maybe the series will reach crazy highs

time for Hunters 2

Hunter is actually the one Metroid game where the shooter genre might be aplicable.

Metroid isn't a shooter, nor a plataformer - metroid is its own genre.

It's a metroid(vania) game: an interconnected world with focus on exploration and gameplay.

Metroid has more to do with Steamworld Dig than Halo.

 

[Deleted user]

But you have to understand that almost no one else would ever describe those games that way

I do.

 

[SuperFakerBros]

I do.

And that's fine but you're in a very small minority when it comes to that. For everyone else, you'd have to go with the more general terms everyone else goes with

 

[Deleted user]

And that's fine but you're in a very small minority when it comes to that.

Dont care.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

I propose the term Metroid -vania, pronounced "Metroid minus vania". It's like a metroidvania without the vania.

Follow me for more genius ideas.

Dont care.

.. Now you're being immature again.

 

[Brewster123]

And that's fine but you're in a very small minority when it comes to that. For everyone else, you'd have to go with the more general terms everyone else goes with

Just to add on to this: using terminology that no-one else uses is fine so long as communication is clear. However, when discussing sales and sales potential, it is best to use the terminology and categorization that the general public uses, as that is the group that is actually going to be buying the game and driving its sales. In this case, analogizing or comparing the sales of 2D Metroid and Splatoon (outside of them both being on Switch and Nintendo IPs) doesn't really make sense because, while you may consider them both to be shooters, the average person would catgeorize them as being completely different types of games

 

[Deleted user]

Never thought I'd have to use the ignore button so often already. Oh well.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

Oh well indeed.

 

[pld]

This thread is entertaining.

 

[Deleted user]

This thread is entertaining.

Not more entertaing than Dread. Dread is awesome.

 

[pld]

Not more entertaing than Dread. Dread is awesome.

My copy still has not arrived so I can't tell yet.

 

[KC Hazel]

Dont care.

I assume you're just trolling at this point, but the reason it matters in the context of this conversation is because when talking about sales numbers you're discussing how the general public views things. You may consider Splatoon and 2D Metroid to be the same type of game, but most people do not, so don't assume Splatoon sales numbers will translate to Metroid based on genre. Someone can think GTA and Fire Emblem are the same genre, but if the rest of the world doesn't, it won't translate to GTA fans buying Fire Emblem. It matter in the context of a sales conversation.

 

[Deleted user]

I assume you're just trolling at this point

What?

You may consider Splatoon and 2D Metroid to be the same type of game

I never said that. I said that I call them both shooters, but I also said in another post that Splatoon is different type of shooter from Metroid. At the end of the day this is all pointless. Bye.

pld:​

My copy still has not arrived so I can't tell yet.

I hope you enjoy it.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

Never thought I'd have to use the ignore button so often already. Oh well.

I'm assuming this includes me, but I'll try anyway to get across why your insistence on Metroid being a shooter is receiving so much pushback here.

See, genres are used in order to convey information about what the game --in this case-- is, either to inform a potential buyer or for purposes of grouping similar games together for conversation, analysis, et cetera.

In this case, you indicated that the success of Splatoon, being a shooter, was directly comparable to the prospects of Metroid, grouping it in also as a shooter:

Splatoon started from zero and went to around 5 million on a console (Wii U) that bombed. Why cant Metroid who already has a fanbase go much higher than 5 million on a console that is over 90 million and still rapidly growing? Is there something fundamentally wrong with Metroid in your opinion? Oh and they are both shooters, so shooters do sell on the Switch.

I'm just trying to figure out your reasoning? Metroid Dread is a shooter. Splatoon and Splatoon 2 are shooters. Splatoon starting from scratch did well on a bombed/dead console. Splatoon 2 did phenominally well on a successful one. Why is it [unlikely] in your opinion that Dread wont do 9 million on a successful console when it already has a fanbase (not starting from zero like Splatoon)? Is there something inherent to the Metroid franchise that prevents it from breaking out? (And before you bring up multiplayer, remember BOTW.)

The pushback occurs because these are very different games with entirely different ethos, aesthetics, loops, purposes. One is a colorful and fresh team shooter, and the other is a moody, isolated metroid(vania). The audiences might overlap, but the target is entirely different.

So to suggest that Metroid should be expected to experience the same success as Splatoon, based entirely on the very tenuous connection of being a shooter --which carries connotations very different from what makes a Metroid and almost none of what constitutes Metroid's core, is going to receive pushback.

I also said in another post that Splatoon is different type of shooter from Metroid.

And this is the point. Because they're entirely different, they aren't exactly comparable for sales potential analysis. You seem to understand this, so I'm not entirely sure what the miscommunication is here.

All that said, I hope Dread is wildly successful. I hope Metroid sees a long, prosperous future of really good games.
The point of comparison just doesn't connect.

 

[byDoS]

And that's fine but [...]

People are entitled to their opinions the same way they have the liberty to be wrong.

And Aquarius is wrong - objectively wrong.

And that is also fine. Let's move on.

 

[Deleted user]

I'm assuming this includes me, but I'll try anyway to get across why your insistence on Metroid being a shooter is receiving so much pushback here.

See, genres are used in order to convey information about what the game --in this case-- is, either to inform a potential buyer or for purposes of grouping similar games together for conversation, analysis, et cetera.

In this case, you indicated that the success of Splatoon, being a shooter, was directly comparable to the prospects of Metroid, grouping it in also as a shooter:





The pushback occurs because these are very different games with entirely different ethos, aesthetics, loops, purposes. One is a colorful and fresh team shooter, and the other is a moody, isolated metroid(vania). The audiences might overlap, but the target is entirely different.

So to suggest that Metroid should be expected to experience the same success as Splatoon, based entirely on the very tenuous connection of being a shooter --which carries connotations very different from what makes a Metroid and almost none of what constitutes Metroid's core, is going to receive pushback.


And this is the point. Because they're entirely different, they aren't exactly comparable for sales potential analysis. You seem to understand this, so I'm not entirely sure what the miscommunication is here.

All that said, I hope Dread is wildly successful. I hope Metroid sees a long, prosperous future of really good games.
The point of comparison just doesn't connect.

No, it doesn't include you. At the end of the day, a shooter is what I call Metroid Dread and Metroid prime. They are more that just shooters, but that's what I call them. No harm done. This is all so peculiar because I remember in a thread on YouTube where I described the movie Annihilation as a Sci/Fi horror and someone somehow felt offended by that saying "ITS NOT A HORROR MOVIE!!!!" and attacked me personally. I'm not going to go back and forth about trivial things like that here again. Not gonna happen.

 

[Abzeronow]

The thing with Zelda though is that you can do many actions without using your sword. Like in OOT you can reflect Ganondorf's attack with a bottle.




Adventuring is what you do in the game, I know , but shooting is core to the game, so is jumping. So you could also call Metroid a platformer. The point is it is all of them. So if someone says....

(1) "Metroid is NOT a Platformer" I would disagree.
(2) "Metroid is NOT an Adventure game" I would disagree.
(3) "Metroid is NOT a Shooter" I would disagree.

Metroid is an action/adventure game yes, but adventure game as it is commonly used means a point-n-click style text heavy game that was popular on computers in the late 1970s, 1980s and the early 1990s. Visual Novels are a subset of adventure games. So I probably wouldn't call Metroid an "adventure game".

 

[Leo]

I propose the term Metroid -vania, pronounced "Metroid minus vania". It's like a metroidvania without the vania.

Follow me for more genius ideas.

I was never quite sure what the "vania" part is supposed to be tbh

 

[byDoS]

I was never quite sure what the "vania" part is supposed to be tbh

The same thing, but with more focus on upgrades and combat, typical from the Castlevania series.

 

[Supreme Overlord]

I was never quite sure what the "vania" part is supposed to be tbh

Metroidvania was a term coined after the release of Symphony of the Night to refer to Castlevania games that played like Metroid. Use has since been adapted to describe games in general with that general style of design.

 

[Abzeronow]

Metroidvania was a term coined after the release of Symphony of the Night to refer to Castlevania games that played like Metroid. Use has since been adapted to describe games in general with that general style of design.

Yup, but I think "search action" or "exploratory action" are better genre names as it more clearly describes what the genre is.

 

[lemonfresh]

Why are we fighting, lets just celebrate dread is doing good.

 

[Leo]

Metroidvania was a term coined after the release of Symphony of the Night to refer to Castlevania games that played like Metroid. Use has since been adapted to describe games in general with that general style of design.

Yes, that's my understanding too, and how I used the term back then. It's always irked me how it started getting used to describe the genre as a whole like Castlevania is an integral part of it instead of being the one that was influenced in the first place (as much as Iga denies it). I love Castlevania, but it didn't really bring anything essential to the genre except from maybe helping making it popular.

I hope we can move on to "exploration action" eventually.

 

[Deleted user]

Why are we fighting, lets just celebrate dread is doing good.

That's what I've been doing from the beginning.

 

[uncleoptimus]

When I went to pickup *Dread* from Walmart on Friday, I flagged a store associate and we walked over to the game case.

On auto-pilot, he unlocked the case and immediately pulled *Dread* out.

I watched in amusement, then asked "Its amazing that you assumed that is the game I wanted without asking ... You are right, btw."
And he replied "O Yea I wasn't even thinking. It feels like this is the only thing I've been selling this morning."

The hunger is real
(thats the closest emoji to a metroid I think, cant find a jellyfish ... an aside, would be cool to have custom emojis, even a set of specific Nintendo-themed ones for this board)

 

[randomengine]

Metroid - Shooting action explorer.
Castlevania - Melee action explorer.

Metroidvania - Action explorer.

Mega Man - Action platformer.

I think the line is drawn between action platformer and action explorer is the linearity of the experience. Mega Man is linear, while Metroidvanias are about going all over the place and uncovering hidden secrets as a part of core gameplay.

Both have power ups. Specifically, Metroidvanias allow the powerups to access new areas (I haven't played a lot of new Mega Man games).

Zelda is like a Metroid, but top-down. Zelda 2 felt like an attempt at a Metroid, but the experience was flat - Metroidvanias have you explore in the 2d-map-plane. Zelda 2 felt like it was just X-axis map.

That's my off-topic 2 cents.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

5.49 million last count. Zelda is a far bigger franchise and BotW has helped push the numbers of all the other Zeldas on the system. To put it in perspective, LA Remake has a chance to be the best selling top down Zelda ever. It is only a million from LoZ (though the 6.51 for LoZ doesn’t include VC sales, which are a mystery for everything I believe). It’ll probably pass the original LA+DX sitting at 6 million.

Actually, I think it's arguable that Breath of the Wild didn't have that much of an effect on Link's Awakenings sales. As already stated, Link's Awakening originally sold more than that on the GB. And whereas something like Ocarina of Time 3D had competition with another 3D Zelda game being on the system, there is really no new alternative 2D Zelda game. I honestly think if anything it possibly outselling the original has more to do with the Switch. If it had enough to do with Breath of the Wild to create a significant difference in sales, I think the sales would have been more in the 8-10m range (because the Switch effect would have also taken place alongside it)

Yes, that's my understanding too, and how I used the term back then. It's always irked me how it started getting used to describe the genre as a whole like Castlevania is an integral part of it instead of being the one that was influenced in the first place (as much as Iga denies it). I love Castlevania, but it didn't really bring anything essential to the genre except from maybe helping making it popular.

I hope we can move on to "exploration action" eventually.

Eh, I'd honestly say a lot of (but definitely not all) Metroidvanias actually take more lessons from Igavanias than Metroid games. Notice how a LOT of the most popular Metroidvanias in the indie sphere fetishize combat? That's not really something Metroid ever did. It was not a super "combat" oriented game even if you did a lot of shooting, and in fact the shooting often downplayed the combat by making most of the enemies cannon-fodder.

 

[pld]

RIP Aquarius

 

[SuperFakerBros]

RIP Aquarius

Hope that they're not feeling bad or anything. Didn't mean any offense with what I said