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News BREAKING: Putin orders Russian troops to Donetsk and Luhansk, eastern Ukraine.

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bellydrum said:
What I'm confused about is what exactly is the excuse for that you're talking about
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Every country under capitalism is going to attempt to sabotage their competitors (other nations). It's arguably an obligation for their heads of state to at least try. The US knows this and knows that other nations, including Russia, will try because they do it themselves all the time. It is absolutely something that should be prepared for and prevented, there's no excuse for allowing it to work. If Putin is able to actually do the things he's accused of doing, the anger should be directed at the people who allowed it to happen.
 
NarohDethan said:
'We better do some middling and bombing ourselves because otherwise Putin will do it'.
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Brock Reiher said:
Every country under capitalism is going to attempt to sabotage their competitors (other nations). It's arguably an obligation for their heads of state to at least try. The US knows this and knows that other nations, including Russia, will try because they do it themselves all the time. It is absolutely something that should be prepared for and prevented, there's no excuse for allowing it to work. If Putin is able to actually do the things he's accused of doing, the anger should be directed at the people who allowed it to happen.
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I think you're fundamental misunderstanding what I'm saying. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Brock asked:

why [isn't America] able to do anything about [Russian meddling]?
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My answer was, essentially, that we could do something about it, were it not for the people in our own government that prevent anything being done about it.


If Putin is able to actually do the things he's accused of doing,
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Well, he is, and he does. There's no "if".
the anger should be directed at the people who allowed it to happen.
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And no anger should be directed at the person doing it?
Should anger only be directed in one place?
Don't you think people are angry at the people who allowed it to happen?
 
The following person is a National Officer in Stop The War Coalition, which is one of the more prominent left wing campaign groups out there in the UK:



This is the sort of disinformation that the Kremlin throws out there for the left to get tangled up in and disseminate. Disinformation like this don't just cause general political division, it causes left wing parties like the Labour party to become embroiled in infighting, making them less likely to gain power ( which is handy for Russia, as they also fund the Tory party)
 
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Not sure if this has been discussed yet but multiple signs pointing towards something happening very soon, probably tonight



 
Awena said:
Not sure if this has been discussed yet but multiple signs pointing towards something happening very soon, probably tonight



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Tweets are tweets but I saw one saying 4am their time tonight. Would be nice if nothing happens and the troops went away but it's a silly waste of money doing this for no reason
 
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bellydrum said:
I think you're fundamental misunderstanding what I'm saying. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Brock asked:



My answer was, essentially, that we could do something about it, were it not for the people in our own government that prevent anything being done about it.



Well, he is, and he does. There's no "if".

And no anger should be directed at the person doing it?
Should anger only be directed in one place?
Don't you think people are angry at the people who allowed it to happen?
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I think it is an excuse for people in power to say "we can't do anything because of the other guys", that means they failed at doing their job and are trying to find someone to blame. I don't want to hear about who's fault it is.
 
Brock Reiher said:
I think it is an excuse for people in power to say "we can't do anything because of the other guys", that means they failed at doing their job and are trying to find someone to blame. I don't want to hear about who's fault it is.
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Okay, I understand. But that's completely irrelevant to what we were talking about before, and frankly it feels like you derailed our conversation to the point where I don't even remember what we were talking about. So, there, I guess.
 
bellydrum said:
Okay, I understand. But that's completely irrelevant to what we were talking about before, and frankly it feels like you derailed our conversation to the point where I don't even remember what we were talking about. So, there, I guess.
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The point would be that Putin isn't some grand puppet master that's uniquely pulling strings, as Rainbow was suggesting. He's doing the same thing everyone else is doing but is getting more blame for doing it.
 
Brock Reiher said:
The point would be that Putin isn't some grand puppet master that's uniquely pulling strings, as Rainbow was suggesting. He's doing the same thing everyone else is doing but is getting more blame for doing it.
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I agree that Putin's not uniquely pulling strings, definitely.
But I don't think prioritizing the equality of blame over punishing those that get caught is a good fight.

Why are you more concerned with everybody getting equal blame before anybody gets blame?
 
bellydrum said:
I agree that Putin's not uniquely pulling strings, definitely.
But I don't think prioritizing the equality of blame over punishing those that get caught is a good fight.

Why are you more concerned with everybody getting equal blame before anybody gets blame?
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It may be a continuation of the derail you were talking about earlier, but I generally don't care about blame at all, I care about results. If Putin is able to influence other nations because they are so immiserated that they can be influenced in such a way, my question is what is going to be done to stop that immiseration. Because even if Putin managed to significantly influence something to a negative end, even if he was removed from the picture somebody else will be able to do the same because to cause of the problem has not been removed.
 
Brock Reiher said:
It may be a continuation of the derail you were talking about earlier, but I generally don't care about blame at all, I care about results. If Putin is able to influence other nations because they are so immiserated that they can be influenced in such a way, my question is what is going to be done to stop that immiseration. Because even if Putin managed to significantly influence something to a negative end, even if he was removed from the picture somebody else will be able to do the same because to cause of the problem has not been removed.
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When your house is getting broken into, you don't walk around the house examining potential future entry points while the robber is taking your shit.
You fend off the person taking your shit, then you examine potential future entry points.
You don't throw your hands up and say to the robber, "well, I deserved this. No use blaming you."

I generally don't care about blame at all, I care about results.
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This is a false dichotomy. Neither of us should be talking about "blame". We're talking about successful and unsuccessful attempts at political interference.
I think what you mean is "I don't care about unsuccessful attempts, I care about successful attempts", because that is what you are saying.
 


UN Security Council holding an emergency meeting on Ukraine in a couple hours
 
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bellydrum said:
When your house is getting broken into, you don't walk around the house examining potential future entry points while the robber is taking your shit.
You fend off the person taking your shit, then you examine potential future entry points.
You don't throw your hands up and say to the robber, "well, I deserved this. No use blaming you."
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I would blame myself if my house got broken into, especially if I was an experienced robber.

Another anology would be if you are renting a house and you got robbed because your locks aren't maintained and your land lord blows you off, who are you going to blame?
 
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Rainbow said:
Why is this, that you don't know about his funding of leftist and right- wing movements all around the globe? It is a known fact. Also that he pays cyber warriors to influence public opinion in his favor. How is it even possible to not know about???
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Do you know what a century is?
 
Ostia said:
Do you know what a century is?
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Let's assume the person who doesn't speak English as their first language meant "decades" instead of "centuries" and not get too hung up on that. At this point its gone on too long.

We all don't like what's going on right now with Russia, so let's stop arguing about sanctions and shit and focus on the point of the thread—that there are active explosions happening in Ukraine right now, and we all agree that that's a bad thing.
 
bellydrum said:
Let's assume the person who doesn't speak English as their first language meant "decades" instead of "centuries" and not get too hung up on that. At this point its gone on too long.

We all don't like what's going on right now with Russia, so let's stop arguing about sanctions and shit and focus on the point of the thread—that there are active explosions happening in Ukraine right now, and we all agree that that's a bad thing.
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Either interpretation would be grossly inaccurate but sure, that’s fine.
 
Apparently some major shit is going down in Ukraine already.

I don't know what will happen, i just hope for this to be the end of Putin once and for all one way or the other
 
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Brock Reiher said:
I would blame myself if my house got broken into, especially if I was an experienced robber.

Another anology would be if you are renting a house and you got robbed because your locks aren't maintained and your land lord blows you off, who are you going to blame?
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The fucking person robbing my house?

I see Fami continues to add qualifiers to everything. Y’all are as bad as the rest on this.
 
Vanillalite said:
I see Fami continues to add qualifiers to everything. Y’all are as bad as the rest on this.
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Since when does one user represent all of Famiboards? Quit it with that "I see Fami continues to" shit.
 
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Brock Reiher said:
I would blame myself if my house got broken into, especially if I was an experienced robber.
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This isn't what I was asking, like at all.

Me:
When your house is getting broken into,
You don't -- welcome him in gracefully and defend him when he gets arrested
You do -- defend yourself in the moment, and prevent it from happening again
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Your response:
I would blame myself.
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This is a non-sequitur in our conversation.
You have a tendency of responding to things that weren't said to you, and exhausting the person you're talking to. I sure hope this isn't your idea of debate.
Talking to you is like having two different conversations at once. I'm done now
 
bellydrum said:
This isn't what I was asking, like at all.

Me:

Your response:
This is a non-sequitur in our conversation.
You have a tendency of responding to things that weren't said to you, and exhausting the person you're talking to. I sure hope this isn't your idea of debate.
Talking to you is like having two different conversations at once. I'm done now
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In that case it's a bad analogy, because nobody's house is currently being broken into. I am responding to the things you ask, not bringing new information in.

Also, your quotes in this post I'm responding to do not match the post I responded to earlier. Did you write new ones? That would explain the difference.
 
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Brock Reiher said:
In that case it's a bad analogy, because nobody's house is currently being broken into. I am responding to the things you ask, not bringing new information in.

Also, your quotes in this post I'm responding to do not match the post I responded to earlier. Did you write new ones? That would explain the difference.
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No, they mean the same thing - I reworded them to be clearer.
 
Explosions reported in Kyiv, it's getting pretty clear that this is not limited to Donbass

 
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Putin is a complete monster and deserves everything that he's going to get. How many people just died? How many? Chances are we'll never know. For no reason other than personal pride. I hope he suffers.
 
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