Dusa
Bob-omb
- Pronouns
- She/Her
People voted for Obama after his drone strike program, maybe you ought not to talk about people being complicit in war crimes, glass houses and all that
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News BREAKING: Putin orders Russian troops to Donetsk and Luhansk, eastern Ukraine.
Rainbow
Bob-omb
Poland, Slowakia, Czech Republik, Hungary, many more. It is known. Everything that can damage NATO.
Or are you really unaware of that?
Linkstrikesback
Starman
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- He
I wonder how often a nation that started a war actually had a public that wanted it.
War is a rich mans game.
Mekanos
おっす！
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- he/they
gogosox82
Cappy
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- He/him
Why are you assuming they want to go to war? And what about the 47% of people?
Monster Mash
Octorok
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- he/him
Gonna need receipts
Rainbow
Bob-omb
It doesnt really matter, because they are at war NOW with all it's consequences.
Fercho
Touch Fuzzy get dizzy
- Pronouns
- He, Him
You seem more and more unhinged with every post. Unless you are actively trolling i suggest for you to take some time off from news and such....
Monster Mash
Octorok
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I'm not sure if you want to go down this road of saying "this country deserves to suffer because of a chunk of the voters elected a right-winger"
gogosox82
Cappy
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- He/him
They aren't at war tho
Rainbow
Bob-omb
The first thing you need is education on russias funding on leftist partys that decly NATO. Because it is proofen, even if you deny the fact.
Monster Mash
Octorok
- Pronouns
- he/him
Gonna need receipts
Rainbow
Bob-omb
Lol, oh my god. What the fuck?
If you think that Putin is a madman who is already trying to do something he is unable to do because of a lack of resources, why do you think that sanctions would stop him?
Rainbow
Bob-omb
I don't think sanctions could stop him. They weaken him.
Ostia
Octorok
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- He/Him
You’re the one who claimed Putin has been puppet master pulling the strings for centuries lol
gogosox82
Cappy
- Pronouns
- He/him
Still waiting for you to explain how Russia is going to invade and occupy all of europe btw
That is understandable. What do you think the ideal outcome is here?
- Pronouns
- he/him
All I know is this world is a shitty place because those in power always exercise their influence over those that are not. All through society, and on the level of states as well.
If the US and Russia kindly fucked off and stopped utilising others for their own geopolitical gain, that would be swell. But of course, others would rise to fill the vacuum.
If the US and Russia kindly fucked off and stopped utilising others for their own geopolitical gain, that would be swell. But of course, others would rise to fill the vacuum.
I'm not American, nor did I think Obama deserved the noble peace prize because of his warmongering ways.
And to the person saying 47% didn't want Putin, that was in 2000. He got 76.69% of the vote in 2018.
Ostia
Octorok
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Putin being popular in his last election is not the same thing as war with Ukraine being popular. US wars usually poll poorly even if the president has decent popularity
R
Ray00101
Guest
Does Russia have compulsory voting or something?
Rainbow
Bob-omb
Why is this, that you don't know about his funding of leftist and right- wing movements all around the globe? It is a known fact. Also that he pays cyber warriors to influence public opinion in his favor. How is it even possible to not know about???
D
Deleted member 1108
Guest
Are you sure you're not talking about the US?
Monster Mash
Octorok
- Pronouns
- he/him
gogosox82
Cappy
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- He/him
if its an easily proven fact, dropping a source shouldn't be hard no?
D
Deleted member 2
Guest
Question, are you asking "SOURCE??" because you believe that Putin has never funded political movements around the globe?
Or do you know that Putin has funded political movements around the globe, and you're just sick of Rainbow's shit?
Why Putin Is Bolstering Europe's Far-Right Populism
While U.S. intelligence agencies investigate claims that Russia secretly hacked emails to help tip last year’s elections in favor of Donald Trump, Russia’s push to bolster far-right populist politicians in Europe has been far more blatant.
www.nbcnews.com
Putin’s far-right ambition: Think-tank reveals how Russian President
In France, the Front National was recently granted a €9m loan by a small financial institution to fund the party’s campaign for next year’s regional elections
www.independent.co.uk
Russia’s Role in Stoking Right-Wing Extremism in the West
The U.S. Capitol siege has revealed the extent of polarization Moscow can exploit to increase its influence and undermine Western democracies.
worldview.stratfor.com
With Friends Like These: The Kremlin’s Far-Right and Populist Connections in Italy and Austria
A blend of new threats and opportunities is causing Moscow to take greater risks and embrace more flamboyant policies in Europe. The Kremlin’s relationships with Italy and Austria shine a spotlight on how Europe’s domestic troubles have opened many doors for Moscow.
carnegieendowment.org
Why Russia Cultivates Foreign Fringe Groups Like the California Secessionists
There’s a method to the weirdness.
Russia’s long arm reaches to the right in Europe
Austrian politicians are not the only ones to be seeking deals with Moscow
www.ft.com
Russia’s Involvement in Far-Right European Politics
Russia's support of the League party demonstrates the Kremlin’s goal of breaking European alliances by strengthening right-wing extremism.
www.americansecurityproject.org
Putin’s no populist, but he can gain from populist movements worldwide
Nowhere is the rise of populism more consequential for Russia than in the United States. But will Trump’s populist flair and desire to shake up the Washington establishment benefit Putin in the long run?
www.brookings.edu
Confronting Russia’s Role in Transnational White Supremacist Extremism
An assessment of the current nexus between Western right-wing extremists and Russian actors at the state and non-state level.
www.justsecurity.org
Exclusive: Russian operation masqueraded as right-wing news site to target U.S. voters - sources
The Russian group accused of meddling in the 2016 U.S. election has posed as an independent news outlet to target right-wing social media users ahead of this year's vote, two people familiar with an FBI probe into the activity told Reuters.
www.reuters.com
We should beware Russia’s links with Europe’s right | Luke Harding
Luke Harding: Moscow is handing cash to the Front National and others in order to exploit popular dissent against the European Union
www.theguardian.com
Russia’s Promotion of Illiberal Populism: Tools, Tactics, Networks
Understanding the rise of illiberal populism has been a focus of recent debate on both sides of the Atlantic. This “illiberal international” has many faces, often seemingly at odds: Donald Trump and Jill Stein in the United States, Marine Le Pen and Jean-Luc Melenchon in France, la Lega and the...
securingdemocracy.gmfus.org
The thing with the Russian meddling-- you can argue the extent of it but at the end of the day it can only be successful/make an impact if the country they're meddling in has huge fundamental problems to exploit. It's a problem that can be solved, even if doing so would be difficult.
D
Deleted member 2
Guest
I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you rephrase this in ooga-booga terms
D
Deleted member 1108
Guest
Even if you pay for an army of Russian trolls to start talking shit on Facebook about Hillary Clinton, the system that keeps the US together are more or less resilient to that. Donald Trump didn't win because Putin said so, he won because Clinton was a dog shit candidate, and the US still has a massive problem with bigotry.
Monster Mash
Octorok
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- he/him
I didn't say anything about him never funding any political movements. Rainbow's claim was some horseshoe theory bullshit that Putin funds leftwing and rightwing groups, as if a capitalist oligarch is giving money to the people who want to abolish the economic system he benefits from. When they were pressed, they named two far-right parties in Europe and then refused to elaborate (multiple times) on which leftwing groups he's been funding. It's not the only thing they should start providing sources for either.Question, are you asking "SOURCE??" because you believe that Putin has never funded political movements around the globe?
Or do you know that Putin has funded political movements around the globe, and you're just sick of Rainbow's shit?
Why Putin Is Bolstering Europe's Far-Right Populism
While U.S. intelligence agencies investigate claims that Russia secretly hacked emails to help tip last year’s elections in favor of Donald Trump, Russia’s push to bolster far-right populist politicians in Europe has been far more blatant.
Putin’s far-right ambition: Think-tank reveals how Russian President
In France, the Front National was recently granted a €9m loan by a small financial institution to fund the party’s campaign for next year’s regional electionsRussia’s Role in Stoking Right-Wing Extremism in the West
The U.S. Capitol siege has revealed the extent of polarization Moscow can exploit to increase its influence and undermine Western democracies.With Friends Like These: The Kremlin’s Far-Right and Populist Connections in Italy and Austria
A blend of new threats and opportunities is causing Moscow to take greater risks and embrace more flamboyant policies in Europe. The Kremlin’s relationships with Italy and Austria shine a spotlight on how Europe’s domestic troubles have opened many doors for Moscow.Why Russia Cultivates Foreign Fringe Groups Like the California Secessionists
There’s a method to the weirdness.slate.com
Russia’s long arm reaches to the right in Europe
Austrian politicians are not the only ones to be seeking deals with MoscowRussia’s Involvement in Far-Right European Politics
Russia's support of the League party demonstrates the Kremlin’s goal of breaking European alliances by strengthening right-wing extremism.Putin’s no populist, but he can gain from populist movements worldwide
Nowhere is the rise of populism more consequential for Russia than in the United States. But will Trump’s populist flair and desire to shake up the Washington establishment benefit Putin in the long run?Confronting Russia’s Role in Transnational White Supremacist Extremism
An assessment of the current nexus between Western right-wing extremists and Russian actors at the state and non-state level.Exclusive: Russian operation masqueraded as right-wing news site to target U.S. voters - sources
The Russian group accused of meddling in the 2016 U.S. election has posed as an independent news outlet to target right-wing social media users ahead of this year's vote, two people familiar with an FBI probe into the activity told Reuters.We should beware Russia’s links with Europe’s right | Luke Harding
Luke Harding: Moscow is handing cash to the Front National and others in order to exploit popular dissent against the European UnionRussia’s Promotion of Illiberal Populism: Tools, Tactics, Networks
Understanding the rise of illiberal populism has been a focus of recent debate on both sides of the Atlantic. This “illiberal international” has many faces, often seemingly at odds: Donald Trump and Jill Stein in the United States, Marine Le Pen and Jean-Luc Melenchon in France, la Lega and the...
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D
Deleted member 2
Guest
Ah okay thanks for explaining that to me - that's what I thought Brock meant, but I wasn't sure.
So yes, I agree that Russian meddling is only "successful" if it attains its end goal.
But the matter at hand is that Russia is meddling at all. Attempted meddling vs successful meddling, if you will.
True, but it doesn't detract from the fact that there was an attempted meddling in the first place. I don't think you expect the world to say "oh, okay, well, it didn't work, so no harm done, right?"
D
Deleted member 2
Guest
Oh, yeah, framing it as a capitalist oligarch giving money to the people who want to abolish the economic system he benefits from makes it sound contradictory.
But funding far-left (as well as far-right) movements in order to sow discourse and widen the political division of a unified country that he perceives as a threat is not only something Putin would find beneficial, but also pretty much right in his wheelhouse, right?
That being said, in the wall of links I pasted above, the vast discrepancy between the number of right-wing and the number of left-wing organizations Putin is accused to have funded is pretty.... interesting. And to your point.
Monster Mash
Octorok
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- he/him
As for sanctions:
www.nytimes.com
www.brookings.edu
www.independent.co.uk
www.latimes.com
www.aljazeera.com
Pick a point on the globe, the picture's the same.
And no, "targeted" or "smart" sanctions are not the cruelty-free alternative to "normal" sanctions.
www.argusmedia.com
It's a lot like how the US tries to dress up our drone strike program by touting their "precision." It's propaganda trying to sell you the same mass death we've always been selling. I understand wanting to do something that will hurt the people responsible for this, and I understand feeling helpless, but this is absolutely positively not the way to accomplish anything other than spreading disdain and misery to people are fundamentally not the ones responsible for this.
Opinion | Venezuela’s Kids Are Dying. Are We Responsible? (Published 2019)
Our well-meaning sanctions may be inflicting pain on the wrong people.
Iran: The double jeopardy of sanctions and COVID-19 | Brookings
Djavad Salehi-Isfahani explains how U.S. sanctions have hobbled Iran’s response to the pandemic.
www.brookings.edu
US sanctions on Venezuela 'responsible for tens of thousands of deaths'
Claim comes as US seeks to dislodge Venezuela's president
www.independent.co.uk
Embargo of Cuba Exacts a 'Tragic Human Toll,' Health Report Charges
Sanctions: Study finds increased suffering and deaths as a result of U.S. actions. 'Chilling effect' of Helms-Burton is cited.
www.latimes.com
Unblocking long-suffering Cuba
Stifling US embargo still chokeholds the island decades later, but will détente finally halt its devastating effects?
Pick a point on the globe, the picture's the same.
And no, "targeted" or "smart" sanctions are not the cruelty-free alternative to "normal" sanctions.
EU expands Venezuela targeted sanctions list | Latest Market News
The EU has added 19 Venezuelan officials to its targeted sanctions list, including the governor of oil-producing Zulia state Oman Prieto.
It's a lot like how the US tries to dress up our drone strike program by touting their "precision." It's propaganda trying to sell you the same mass death we've always been selling. I understand wanting to do something that will hurt the people responsible for this, and I understand feeling helpless, but this is absolutely positively not the way to accomplish anything other than spreading disdain and misery to people are fundamentally not the ones responsible for this.
Linkstrikesback
Starman
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- He
I'm not sure there are any countries on the planet that don't have fundamental problems to exploit, humans are fundamentally flawed creatures, and I don't think getting rid of those is negotiable
Monster Mash
Octorok
- Pronouns
- he/him
Putin learned well from our example. The US has spent every year since the end of WW2 funding fascists around the globe to crush communists so that our imperial demands could be served.
Centrists and center-left ideologies like socdems and liberals sure, because at the end of the day the thing fascists, center-right conservatives, liberals, socdems, etc have in common as that they all wish to uphold global capitalism. This is why, historically, socdems and liberals found themselves allying with the Nazis to purge communists as soon as it became feasible, and why the good ol' liberal US was so friendly with former nazis post-WW2. That's why I think the only winning play is to back a better alternative to capitalism, not just a more gentle monster. Part of that is imposing imperialism in all its forms, whether that be Putin invading a neighbor or the US doing US things.
That's true! My assumption is that every world power is trying stuff like this all the time (why would they not), so for our leaders to point to it when it works comes across to me as an excuse/abdication of responsibility. If people on message boards are able to snuff out Putin's plans, then why aren't the people we're supposed to trust able to do anything about it?
D
Deleted member 2
Guest
Putin learned well from our example. The US has spent every year since the end of WW2 funding fascists around the globe to crush communists so that our imperial demands could be served.
Centrists and center-left ideologies like socdems and liberals sure, because at the end of the day the thing fascists, center-right conservatives, liberals, socdems, etc have in common as that they all wish to uphold global capitalism. This is why, historically, socdems and liberals found themselves allying with the Nazis to purge communists as soon as it became feasible, and why the good ol' liberal US was so friendly with former nazis post-WW2. That's why I think the only winning play is to back a better alternative to capitalism, not just a more gentle monster. Part of that is imposing imperialism in all its forms, whether that be Putin invading a neighbor or the US doing US things.
Can you help me understand how this makes sense as a response to my comment? I'm trying to draw the connection.
I don't see how anything in your comment relates to the above question, and
I'm not sure what your response has to do with this.
Not trying to argue. Just help me understand the direct correlation here.
D
Deleted member 2
Guest
well, we're not. We're able to hypothesize based on evidence, not actually affect anything. Let alone snuff it out.
Because the people who do identify things that Russia does that are worthy of pointing out (aka, the people we are supposed to trust) are trodden over and silenced by those in our government who find it beneficial to not call it out (other people we are supposed to trust)
I think that's just another excuse then. The question I always ask is "If you can't do anything, then what good are you?"
Monster Mash
Octorok
- Pronouns
- he/him
I'm saying that he's a right-winger schooled by right-wingers who became experts in funding right-wing mass murder programs to wipe out communists, so it isn't surprising that he primarily funds right-wing groups and parties abroad. It doesn't profit him to fund the only ideological groups that are directly opposed to his, and other right-wingers', way of life. To that end, I can see him funding demsocs and liberal groups along with non-ideologically-aligned fringe groups in addition to the usual conservatives and fascists, but I haven't seen any evidence of him funding socialists or communists, and logically it wouldn't make sense for him to.
Quzar
Rattata
I think Brock is trying to ask you what autonomy do you have in this situation.
Not quite-- more so that I think the people in power are quick to blame Putin for something that is ultimately their own failings, if that makes sense.
D
Deleted member 2
Guest
I'm not sure what you mean. What did I say that is an excuse?
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Don’t ignore the left! Connections between Europe’s radical left and Russia
Europe’s radical left is connected personally and politically to the Kremlin.
www.opendemocracy.net
How Putin Played the Far Left
The Kremlin didn’t just rely on the alt-right to help Trump win. Bernie Bros, Greens, and ‘anti-imperialists’ got had, too.
www.thedailybeast.com
It makes perfect sense for the Kremlin to fund and link in with leftist groups as well as right wing groups if it causes division.
The Brexit vote in the UK was implicitly funded by Russian money, because it forced a huge division in UK politics. Other such divisions exist in politics across the world, and Putin has been key in exploiting them. Even organisations like Stop The War Coalition have been linked with individuals and groups associated with the Kremlin:
Stop the War linked to Putin puppets
An organisation funded by the Kremlin to undermine the West has named Stop the War, the hard-left group chaired until last year by Jeremy Corbyn, as its official UK partner.Stop the War has also
www.thetimes.co.uk
Which isn't surprising given Stop The War has been repeating Kremlin propaganda, such as showing Crimea as part of Russia.
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D
Deleted member 2
Guest
But it can, and it does, when his funding results in sowing divide and discontent rather than the furthering of their ideologies enough to hurt him.
Oh, not you at all. I think one of the main reasons people talk about Putin meddling in other countries at all is because our politicians, and by extension our media, use Putin as an excuse.
D
Deleted member 2
Guest
What I'm confused about is what exactly is the excuse for that you're talking about
