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Discussion Socialism Discussion Thread

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Brock Reiher said:
I think most of the people here aren't picking a side, but just trying to push back against US propaganda. Luckily it sounds like Ukrainian voices who don't want a war are being heard.
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Not consciously, perhaps, but there's a vein of it throughout the discussion in the way some chose to discuss it (mostly surrounding where the focus is pointed) and is perhaps an inevitability in such conversations. It's nothing anyone can control, so as a general rule, the only option is to opt out entirely.
As horrifying as the outcome can be, nothing good comes of discussing the sabre-rattling between state powers, especially with another in the middle, especially when all it does is play to emotions and anxiety, if only because those emotions and anxieties are just another product for capitalists to commodify, either by manipulating them to their own monetary gains, selling you something to ease them, creating opposition from dissent that drives people back into the arms of liberalism, etc. And those with socialist sympathies are hardly immune. That is the nature of the insidious Rube Goldberg machine that capitalism is, but when sabre-rattling is involved, being commodified is not something I wish for anyone, because it will (one way or another) feed the machine's lust for violent conquer.
 
Hello fellow comrades, the war is not going to happen since the weather is nice in Europe and we won't freeze to death. I don't like the narrative of Russia not wanting NATO at the borders, that is pure propaganda. They like their protectorate Ukraine very much and don't want to see them going west. Russia is not a source of anti-imperialism, they just like to weaken any state that is not their fella. In the last decade they reframed their history, the USSR is not seen as the progressive state for the future, the state of the will of the people but something else: one of many Russian empires, "Russians are the greatest and deserve the empire" and so on. Ukraine is getting out of the influence. Russia is not your friend.
 
www.reuters.com

EXCLUSIVE Biden to seek more than $770 billion in 2023 defense budget, sources say

President Joe Biden is expected to ask Congress for a U.S. defense budget exceeding $770 billion for the next fiscal year as the Pentagon seeks to modernize the military, according to three sources familiar with the negotiations, eclipsing the record budget requests by former President Donald Trump.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Ongoing budget talks between Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and the White House's Office of Management and Budget (OMB) have coalesced around a proposed defense request of higher than $770 billion for the 2023 fiscal year starting Oct. 1, the sources said. Negotiations are ongoing within the administration and the final amount could change before the budget request is made in the coming months, the sources added.

Two of the sources said that about $773 billion was going to be available for the Department of Defense and other needs would go on top of that, potentially pushing a total above $800 billion.
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I guess having weirdos come into the thread to call people Russian agents is better than a dude who does digital blackface coming in to promote eugenics. at least one small improvement over era
 
So I'm really late to the party on this, but I recently watched Mrs. America (it showed up on Disney+ in Canada recently), and I can't tell you how much I consider it a must-watch.
Aside from how it details the changes in the US political landscape following Goldwater through the 70s, how 2nd-wave feminism's cracks were showing that ultimately led to the 3rd and 4th wave and a compelling dramatic re-enactment of the fight over the ERA, its most important trait (or the one that stuck with me the most) is how it seems to be a treatise on how compromise with either liberalism OR conservatism is always a losing proposition, no matter which side of the political spectrum you're on, either portraying it as perverting idealism, one's morals or one's stated goals. Be it Steinem, Abzug, Chisolm or even the villain of the piece in Phyllis Schlafly, every time these people compromised by diminishing their ultimate goals or accepting things they didn't want for incremental gains, it diminished them as people and blew up in their faces almost every time. I'm certain it was trying to make a different point about how men weren't willing to give an inch, even as women were ensuring that the men with power were granted more in the hope it would turn the tide for their own goals & ambitions, but... well, the parallels between what was intended and what I read into it were likely an unintended accident that doesn't surprise me in the slightest, in retrospect.

But yeah, compromising with liberalism is a dead end, and Mrs. America is practically a case study in why that is.

EDIT: Thinking back on it, the only person featured in the show I can recall who compromised and came out the other side better for it was Betty Friedan when she looked past her personal opinions on "the lavender menace" and seconded a motion to add anti-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation to the Plan of Action from the National Women's Conference of 1977. But those with power compromising in favour of the needs of marginalized peoples has a tendency to favourably change those who do it in almost all cases instead of it being the other way around.

I suppose that means I've used the wrong term earlier. What I suggested earlier to be compromise was more like concession in most incidents; asking those aggrieved by power to stand down because the ones in power refuse to stand up. Accurate language is important, so my bad.
 
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Putin in full Hitler- mode now. In his speech, telling the world openly that he wants the russian empire back and alongside threatening all the former soviet states ( Baltics, Poland, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ucraine, even Finland). Absolutely frightening to listen.

And I was warned here days ago because i called this russian propaganda out.
 
Rainbow said:
Putin in full Hitler- mode now. In his speech, telling the world openly that he wants the russian empire back and alongside threatening all the former soviet states ( Baltics, Poland, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Ucraine, even Finland). Absolutely frightening to listen.

And I was warned here days ago because i called this russian propaganda out.
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Got a link to it? Sounds like I was giving him the benefit of the doubt when I said he'd be half way to Moldova.
 
Gashead said:
Got a link to it? Sounds like I was giving him the benefit of the doubt when I said he'd be half way to Moldova.
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He's speaking now.Half an our in. Can be seen on RT. But i don't link this propaganda sender here.

It's a speak of an absolute madman. Denying history for wild conspiracy theories. He just regocnised the seperatist regions in ukraine. Even denying ucraine it's whole existence. He's ready for war.
 
Not sure we in the UK can really do anything considering the Diego Garcia situation but at the same time now we'd not need to ever give it back. Seems we are entering another period of "might makes right". Nuclear powers not touching each other but anything else might be fair game.
 
Fucking knew it.

Absolute sympathy for and solidarity with the Ukrainian people, because this is about to get ugly.
 
So you arm foreign agitators inside a country, wait for the host nation to respond, declare them your people in your land and roll the tanks out to "save" them from the thing you've orchestrated?
 
Because we are likely to see sanctions rolling out, I'd hope that governmental leaders would be methodical enough to target oligarchs and militant officials and not have them be the historically ineffective broad sanctions that harm a country's residents instead. I'm skeptical since we see time and time again that the rich protect their own.
 
Gashead said:
So you arm foreign agitators inside a country, wait for the host nation to respond, declare them your people in your land and roll the tanks out to "save" them from the thing you've orchestrated?
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It better have to be pretty clear for us, that he not only declared war on Ukraine, but on whole of europe. He won't stop at east ukraine. His speech made this very clear.

I hate to say this. But we better prepare for war and strength our eastern borders as soon as possible. Especially the baltics. Also finland and sweden should join NATO immediately. Putin and his criminal clan has to be sanctioned into oblivion now!. Arm ukraine as good as possible in the short time left. Driving the costs for russia as high as it can get. Also europe should prepare for refugees and human crisis.

Putins words were this of an absolute lunatic. Nothing sane about it. You should have seen the faces and body language of Lawrow and Co. They were small and crumbled, you basically could see their fear because they no what's coming next. Never felt so much fear about the political future. I should buy a lot of firewood tomorrow is the first thing that came in my mind.
 
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Rainbow said:
It better have to be pretty clear for us, that he not only declared war on Ukraine, but on whole of europe. He won't stop at east ukraine. His speech made this very clear.

I hate to say this. But we better prepare for war and strength our eastern borders as soon as possible. Especially the baltics. Also finland and sweden should join NATO immediately. Putin and his criminal clan has to be sanctioned into oblivion now!. Arm ukraine as good as possible in the short time left. Driving the costs for russia as high as it can get. Also europe should prepare for refugees and human crisis.

Putins words were this of an absolute lunatic. Nothing sane about it. You should have seen the faces and body language of Lawrow and Co. They were small and crumbled, you basically could see their fear because they no what's coming next. Never felt so much fear about the political future. I should buy a lot of firewood tomorrow is the first thing that came in my mind.
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Why would the sanctions do anything now when previous sanctions and the threat of more sanctions did nothing?
 
Brock Reiher said:
Why would the sanctions do anything now when previous sanctions and the threat of more sanctions did nothing?
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Because Russia's economic GDP is currently less than that of California, Italy or France.

Previous sanctions hurt the Russian economy hard. Putin's current actions are those of a madman desperate to try and show the Russia is still relevant on the global stage. If the offensive ends up falling apart, or if the Russian army ends up bogged down fighting against Ukranian forces, then this will end up being Russia's Suez moment.

Properly targeted sanctions have the ability to hurt Putin's wealth, the wealth of the oligarchs backing him, and Russian businesses propping up the administration. We cannot stop Putin from ordering his forces into Ukraine, but we can make it such an expensive decision for him that he ends up regretting ever making such a play.

Bill Browder is one of the leading authorities on Russian corruption, and he has been saying for years that sanctions are the best way to deal with Russian aggression.
 
Brock Reiher said:
Why would the sanctions do anything now when previous sanctions and the threat of more sanctions did nothing?
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Because thats the fastest way to limit his ressources as quick as possible. Drain him from everything possible. From trade to electronis to money. Divide his inner circle becauae they loose money. Let the rubel fall to Hyperinflation. That won't go on him easily, no matter what he says. He's lying anyway as we have seen today. Drive the costs for his military aggression as high as possible.

I'm sorry for the average russian citizen. But there leader basically declared war on us.
 
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JazzPotatoes said:
Because Russia's economic GDP is currently less than that of California, Italy or France.

Previous sanctions hurt the Russian economy hard. Putin's current actions are those of a madman desperate to try and show the Russia is still relevant on the global stage. If the offensive ends up falling apart, or if the Russian army ends up bogged down fighting against Ukranian forces, then this will end up being Russia's Suez moment.

Properly targeted sanctions have the ability to hurt Putin's wealth, the wealth of the oligarchs backing him, and Russian businesses propping up the administration. We cannot stop Putin from ordering his forces into Ukraine, but we can make it such an expensive decision for him that he ends up regretting ever making such a play.

Bill Browder is one of the leading authorities on Russian corruption, and he has been saying for years that sanctions are the best way to deal with Russian aggression.
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You're saying a madman will make the rational decision to change his completely irrational actions because he sees his bank account?
 
Brock Reiher said:
You're saying a madman will make the rational decision to change his completely irrational actions because he sees his bank account?
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Putin has been looting Russian infrastructure to enrich himself for decades.

By many estimations, the accumulated wealth he has taken and hidden is enough to make him the wealthiest man in the world.

So yes, given that he is a robber baron who runs his government exactly like an organised criminal gang, I do think targeting his money will cause him to regret his actions. Because money and power are the only things he has ever cared about.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Putin has been looting Russian infrastructure to enrich himself for decades.

By many estimations, the accumulated wealth he has taken and hidden is enough to make him the wealthiest man in the world.

So yes, given that he is a robber baron who runs his government exactly like an organised criminal gang, I do think targeting his money will cause him to regret his actions. Because money and power are the only things he has ever cared about.
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If his goal is mostly to make money then why did he just do something that will obviously result in more sanctions?
 
To run a military like this isn't cheap either. Nazis also getting defeatee because at some point, there ressources dwindled fast.

Take him his options one after another. Military Technice wont work. without Semi- Conductors

Edit. Also China won't be happy either. Part of there northern borders were once Part of russian empire. They already showed they are not amused by Putin...
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Because he's a paranoid megalomaniac with delusions of his own grandeur.
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Then why would he respond rationally to sanctions? These seem like two different things. Like is he susceptible to economic pressure or is he a megalomaniac who doesn't care about the threat economic pressure? Do you think he just forgot about sanctions as a possibility?
 
Rainbow said:
To run a military like this isn't cheap either. Nazis also getting defeatee because at some point, there ressources dwindled fast.

Take him his options one after another. Military Technice wont work. without Semi- Conductors

Edit. Also China won't be happy either. Part of there northern borders were once Part of russian empire. They already showed they are not amused by Putin...
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The Nazis lost because the Soviets defeated them. They didn’t just run out of steam.
 
Rainbow said:
Bullshit. But i don't argue with someone who's objectively wrong. Just not worth my time.
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Lmao this is the socialism thread, if you can’t agree with this very simple fact (that the Soviets were primarily responsible for the defeat of the Nazis) then what are you doing in here?
 
Putin, this cold and calculating guy who is always three steps ahead and also this nutcase that does things just for the kicks.
 
Ostia said:
Lmao this is the socialism thread, if you can’t agree with this very simple fact (that the Soviets were primarily responsible for the defeat of the Nazis) then what are you doing in here?
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I will not react to your derailing. I basically learned about history of WW2 for years in school and from people that experienced it, like mygrandfathers and my former school director. I even studied the
Pedagogics of the oppressed and how propaganda works. So just spare me with your idiotic simplicism.

People who think that hammer and sickel has something to do with socialism anyway, are just not worth my time.

And Putinis insane and shall go to hell.
 
Rainbow said:
Bullshit. But i don't argue with someone who's objectively wrong. Just not worth my time.
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Isn't the implication here that you think that the Nazis would have just run out of steam without conflict and that the loss of life in the war was pointless? Roosevelt should have just sanctioned them harder?
 
Brock Reiher said:
Then why would he respond rationally to sanctions? These seem like two different things. Like is he susceptible to economic pressure or is he a megalomaniac who doesn't care about the threat economic pressure? Do you think he just forgot about sanctions as a possibility?
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Ostia said:
You’re contradicting yourself with your own posts.
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gogosox82 said:
Sounds like you have no idea and are just guessing
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Or, and this may shock you, I watched Putin's rambling incoherent speech earlier about his intentions to take back land formerly belonging to the Russian empire, and can clearly see the actions of a despot.

Humans are not efficiency machines that always go for the logical choice.

Putin has spent, as mentioned before, literal decades plundering Russian wealth to enrich himself. This is the action of someone who, like all despots, wants to accumulate wealth off the backs of the country he rules.

However, he is also massively paranoid about Russia's diminishing influence, and is taking insane geopolitical decisions in a desperate gambit to maintain his position as the 'strong man' of Russia. Lest you fucking forget, Putin organised and sanctioned a chemical weapon attack on the UK mainland that contaminated a town with radioactive material.

At any other time, that would have been used as justification for war.

Putin can be a dictator looking to enrich himself and also, at the same time, a paranoid authoritarian scared of losing power and international influence. This shouldn't be too hard to understand, the USA literally just got rid of a similar type of individual as President.
 
Rainbow said:
Bullshit. But i don't argue with someone who's objectively wrong. Just not worth my time.
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Rainbow you're definitely the kind of person who's terminally online and have declared yourself a historian huh
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Or, and this may shock you, I watched Putin's rambling incoherent speech earlier about his intentions to take back land formerly belonging to the Russian empire, and can clearly see the actions of a despot.

Humans are not efficiency machines that always go for the logical choice.

Putin has spent, as mentioned before, literal decades plundering Russian wealth to enrich himself. This is the action of someone who, like all despots, wants to accumulate wealth off the backs of the country he rules.

However, he is also massively paranoid about Russia's diminishing influence, and is taking insane geopolitical decisions in a desperate gambit to maintain his position as the 'strong man' of Russia. Lest you fucking forget, Putin organised and sanctioned a chemical weapon attack on the UK mainland that contaminated a town with radioactive material.

At any other time, that would have been used as justification for war.

Putin can be a dictator looking to enrich himself and also, at the same time, a paranoid authoritarian scared of losing power and international influence. This shouldn't be too hard to understand, the USA literally just got rid of a similar type of individual as President.
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If what you say is true then he has already decided that sanctions are a cost worth taking for his larger goals. So why would more sanctions work?
 
Rainbow said:
I will not react to your derailing. I basically learned about history of WW2 for years in school and from people that experienced it, like mygrandfathers and my former school director. I even studied the
Pedagogics of the oppressed and how propaganda works. So just spare me with your idiotic simplicism.

People who think that hammer and sickel has something to do with socialism anyway, are just not worth my time.

And Putinis insane and shall go to hell.
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He's deraling but you have invoked nazis at least 3 times. ok then
 
Brock Reiher said:
Isn't the implication here that you think that the Nazis would have just run out of steam without conflict and that the loss of life in the war was pointless? Roosevelt should have just sanctioned them harder?
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No, this implication is just in your mind. But it's telling that you can't differ it from reality.
 
Brock Reiher said:
If what you say is true then he has already decided that sanctions are a cost worth taking for his larger goals. So why would more sanctions work?
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Why are you failing to understand this?

Sanctions target the Russian economy. They hinder Russia's ability to trade abroad, they freeze Russian assets and money held in other countries, and they harm the oligarchs who run Russia alongside Putin.

Putin may have decided sanctions are a cost worth taking, but it is up to Western countries to prove to him that he is wrong. Sanctions targeted at the right areas will absolutely ruin Putin's wealth, and that of his allies.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Why are you failing to understand this?

Sanctions target the Russian economy. They hinder Russia's ability to trade abroad, they freeze Russian assets and money held in other countries, and they harm the oligarchs who run Russia alongside Putin.

Putin may have decided sanctions are a cost worth taking, but it is up to Western countries to prove to him that he is wrong. Sanctions targeted at the right areas will absolutely ruin Putin's wealth, and that of his allies.
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But if what you're saying is true, this doesn't matter to him.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
Why are you failing to understand this?

Sanctions target the Russian economy. They hinder Russia's ability to trade abroad, they freeze Russian assets and money held in other countries, and they harm the oligarchs who run Russia alongside Putin.

Putin may have decided sanctions are a cost worth taking, but it is up to Western countries to prove to him that he is wrong. Sanctions targeted at the right areas will absolutely ruin Putin's wealth, and that of his allies.
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And how would we do that when we know that sanctions are not enough to dissuade him?
 
These threads always get very funny when libs come in having read WWII revisionist history
 
Brock Reiher said:
Honest question - - are you drunk?
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I just try to understand the so called "socialists" here. But I see no logic in this messaging at all.

Some hours ago, Putin just declared openly war in our face. But everything that comes from here are some weird one- liners. But i should not wonder. It's from the same people that swear to me some days ago, that Putin won't invade. Yet, here we are.
 
Brock Reiher said:
But if what you're saying is true, this doesn't matter to him.
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It will matter to him if and when he can no longer afford to keep running Russia as a mafia state.

You are all arguing damn hard against two points which are objectively observable to any casual viewer:

1) Putin has used Russian assets to personally amass a huge fortune. This is not debatable. Just a cursory reading of post-Soviet politics and the rise of the oligarch system will inevitably lead you to read about Putin gaining power, then threatening those oligarchs if they did not hand over massive portions of their wealth to him. He's an ex-KGB agent who muscled his way into politics off the back of false-flag attacks, and then used nationwide extortion to get as much money as possible, which he now stashes wherever he can.

2) Putin is paranoid, and his paranoia fuels his decision making when it comes to geopolitics. Again; using novichock in a NATO country, hacking the US electoral system and invading Ukraine are not the decisions of a well balanced leader. They are the actions of a leader who is completely terrified that a) Russia will become impotent on the world stage, and b) that he will be the leader who oversaw this, and will lose everything he has amassed.
 
I dunno why we're arguing about Putin. Putin is not a socialist nor this situation has anything to do with socialism. Any socialist worth their salt will tell you that imperialism is bad and war is not a good thing, nor are sanctions that only hurt the working class.
 
JazzPotatoes said:
It will matter to him if and when he can no longer afford to keep running Russia as a mafia state.

You are all arguing damn hard against two points which are objectively observable to any casual viewer:

1) Putin has used Russian assets to personally amass a huge fortune. This is not debatable. Just a cursory reading of post-Soviet politics and the rise of the oligarch system will inevitably lead you to read about Putin gaining power, then threatening those oligarchs if they did not hand over massive portions of their wealth to him. He's an ex-KGB agent who muscled his way into politics off the back of false-flag attacks, and then used nationwide extortion to get as much money as possible, which he now stashes wherever he can.

2) Putin is paranoid, and his paranoia fuels his decision making when it comes to geopolitics. Again; using novichock in a NATO country, hacking the US electoral system and invading Ukraine are not the decisions of a well balanced leader. They are the actions of a leader who is completely terrified that a) Russia will become impotent on the world stage, and b) that he will be the leader who oversaw this, and will lose everything he has amassed.
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Do you have examples of sanctions working in similar situations in the past? From my understanding it usually just starves people and makes them resent the people starving them.
 
NarohDethan said:
I dunno why we're arguing about Putin. Putin is not a socialist nor this situation has anything to do with socialism. Any socialist worth their salt will tell you that imperialism is bad and war is not a good thing, nor are sanctions that only hurt the working class.
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I honestly would rather discuss the claim that the Nazis “ran out of steam,” which is a very interesting euphemism for “the Soviets kicked their asses six ways from Sunday.”
 
Mekanos said:
I honestly would rather discuss the claim that the Nazis “ran out of steam,” which is a very interesting euphemism for “the Soviets kicked their asses six ways from Sunday.”
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I don't understand it, unless Churchill sanctioned them or something to make the difference?
 
Rainbow said:
I will not react to your derailing. I basically learned about history of WW2 for years in school and from people that experienced it, like mygrandfathers and my former school director. I even studied the
Pedagogics of the oppressed and how propaganda works. So just spare me with your idiotic simplicism.

People who think that hammer and sickel has something to do with socialism anyway, are just not worth my time.

And Putinis insane and shall go to hell.
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Hahahahaha OK buddy. Putin does suck, you’re not gonna find any disagreement with that in a socialism thread. You will find disagreement with the “hammer and sickle has nothing to do with Socialism” take though!
 
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