Pre-Release Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (2024) — Pre-release Discussion Thread

[WestEgg]

I never really minded the backtracking in Chapter 4, though granted the tone and story of the chapter carry it hard enough that it still sits comfortably as my favorite in the game.

Chapter 2 has always been the real pain to me. Dull setting (the remake could really elevate it though), meh story (the Jabbi battle is basically the only cool set piece), and Flurry is easily my least favorite companion.

 

[VintoWin]

Chapter 2 definitely has a lifeless, dreary vibe to it. It's intentional, but yeah can see why it's not a favorite. I always wondered if that chapter was inspired by Pikmin at all. The highlight of the chapter is the introduction to the Vivian and her sisters.

Over the past few days I've been getting more hyped for this game. I just can't wait.
When they first revealed it, I was like "Oh another remaster...." but over time I'm realizing this was one of the games I missed a lot.
I used to always want another RPG Paper Mario announced but over the years I think the hope died and my feelings for the franchise as well.
But it's starting to resurface.

 

[Cheetah6442]

Nvm.

 

[Cheetah6442]

Chapter 2 definitely has a lifeless, dreary vibe to it. It's intentional, but yeah can see why it's not a favorite. I always wondered if that chapter was inspired by Pikmin at all. The highlight of the chapter is the introduction to the Vivian and her sisters.

Over the past few days I've been getting more hyped for this game. I just can't wait.
When they first revealed it, I was like "Oh another remaster...." but over time I'm realizing this was one of the games I missed a lot.
I used to always want another RPG Paper Mario announced but over the years I think the hope died and my feelings for the franchise as well.
But it's starting to resurface.

TTYD is a remake actually.

 

[Truno]

I never really minded the backtracking in Chapter 4, though granted the tone and story of the chapter carry it hard enough that it still sits comfortably as my favorite in the game.

Chapter 2 has always been the real pain to me. Dull setting (the remake could really elevate it though), meh story (the Jabbi battle is basically the only cool set piece), and Flurry is easily my least favorite companion.

Imo the setting is the best part. The ambience is phenomenal

 

[Mekanos]

Boggly Woods is great but yeah the tree as a dungeon is kinda eh. The Pikmin homage is cute, I suppose.

My last TTYD replay was in 2012 (which was also my last PM64 replay before NSO) and I definitely came away feeling like the game has very charming scenarios, characters, dialogue, and a well-oiled, engaging battle system, but the map design was a significant step down from the first game (and soundtrack, personally, but TTYD's OST is still excellent). That said, my last PM64 replay I also came away feeling the battle system being so simplistic meant towards the end I was getting a little bored, so maybe I'll appreciate that angle more this time. I'm glad Switch has given me a chance to replay SMRPG and the first two PMs.

 

[ziggyrivers]

and Flurry is easily my least favorite companion.

Honest question: why do some fans hate Flurry that much?

Chapter 2 definitely has a lifeless, dreary vibe to it.

I keep reading this, but I've always found the woods to be very relaxing xD

Imo the setting is the best part. The ambience is phenomenal

Thank you, this is exactly my appreciation

 

[SiG]

TTYD is a remake actually.

Unless they have absolutely changed the logical progression of the game, it feels more like a remaster than a remake.

 

[SammyJ9]

I never really minded the backtracking in Chapter 4, though granted the tone and story of the chapter carry it hard enough that it still sits comfortably as my favorite in the game.

Chapter 2 has always been the real pain to me. Dull setting (the remake could really elevate it though), meh story (the Jabbi battle is basically the only cool set piece), and Flurry is easily my least favorite companion.

I actually really like Chapter 2 - the black and white forest visual design and the music rules, too.

 

[WestEgg]

Honest question: why do some fans hate Flurry that much?

I don't hate her, I just never really liked using her in combat and she's one of the less interesting party members in terms of backstory and personality.

Imo the setting is the best part. The ambience is phenomenal

Boggly Woods is great but yeah the tree as a dungeon is kinda eh. The Pikmin homage is cute, I suppose.

I actually really like Chapter 2 - the black and white forest visual design and the music rules, too.

I like the outside area enough, the black and white psychedelic forest is neat, but the tree dungeon has just never been enjoyable to me. I think being sandwiched between a strong first chapter that has by contrast a much more interesting dungeon, and the Glitz Pit which is a nice change of pace, has intrigue, and unique framing, just makes me more anxious to finish Boggly woods whenever I replay the game.

 

[Stilt Village]

Honest question: why do some fans hate Flurry that much?

Never really thought about it, but she's probably my least favorite too. If I had to guess the reasons:

- All the other partners are based in the existing Mario universe except Vivian, who is directly related to the main antagonists. What even is Flurry?

- Everyone else has a real personal involvement in the story, and Flurry is just some neighbor whose entire involvement is a big sidetrack.

- Why is that character design in a Mario game? Even as a kid I knew it was weird.

- Not very useful in combat, I've heard.

- Diva personality is leaned into just enough to be kind of annoying but not nearly hard enough to be funny.

 

[Mekanos]

- All the other partners are based in the existing Mario universe except Vivian, who is directly related to the main antagonists. What even is Flurry?

- Not very useful in combat, I've heard.

I always saw her as based on Fwoosh from Mario 64. Dunno if that was the intention though.

Also people who think Flurrie isn't useful in combat don't realize Gale Force is basically a OHKO to all enemies that nets you EXP

 

[Cheetah6442]

Unless they have absolutely changed the logical progression of the game, it feels more like a remaster than a remake.

That's not necessary for it to be classified as a remake. Remakes can be 1:1 with the original.

 

[Cheetah6442]

Never really thought about it, but she's probably my least favorite too. If I had to guess the reasons:

- All the other partners are based in the existing Mario universe except Vivian, who is directly related to the main antagonists. What even is Flurry?

- Everyone else has a real personal involvement in the story, and Flurry is just some neighbor whose entire involvement is a big sidetrack.

- Why is that character design in a Mario game? Even as a kid I knew it was weird. Her being a unique character species like Vivian adds to her charm.

- Not very useful in combat, I've heard.

- Diva personality is leaned into just enough to be kind of annoying but not nearly hard enough to be funny.

As far as with your first bullet point, why does it matter that she's not part of an existing Mario species?

 

[SiG]

That's not necessary for it to be classified as a remake. Remakes can be 1:1 with the original.

If there are some major logic/progression changes that go beyond Quality of Life features, then it would considered a full remake (i.e. Resident Evil for GameCube vs the Original for Saturn/PS as an example).
If it's something like an engine overhaul like the Crash Trilogy, it might fall somewhere more towards the "total conversion" side of remasterering (like how Metroid Prime Remastered is essentially using a very updated version of the same engine, while also overhauling the assets to be more in-line with modern standards). There's also Ocarina of Time 3D, which is clearly not using the same engine, but Grezzo most certainly kept the engine very failthful to the original. Then there's Homeworld Remastered, which is not quite the same engine for Homeworld 1...

For me, "Remastered" is something more partiaining to a mainly aesthetic overhaul without changing the core game and gameplay. When you start jumbling up levels and rearranging progression to downright changing some plot points, then you are veering more towards a "Remake" or reimagining, as with the case of the newer Resident Evil Remakes (definitely not the same stages or stage layouts), Final Fantasy VII Remake (what even is going on with the story?), and so on...

Paper Mario TTYD is clearly using a more modern engine (or at least a more modern version of the same engine used by Intelligent Systems), but the game seems to be a 1:1 copy with some minor tweaks to content, but it is still largely the same game as it was before. Therefore it leans more towards the recent Super Mario RPG rerelease on Switch, which also got a brand new engine, but it's content remains largely the same as the original (sans new bonus content and QoL implementations).

I guess even Nintendo couldn't decide whether to consider these titles as remasters or remakes so much so that they just the title as is like Zelda: Link's Awakening...It's not "DX, it's not "Remastered" or "Remake"...It's just "Link's Awakening".

Although it is quite strange this time that, unlike Super Mario RPG's subtitle, "Legend of the Seven Stars", The Thousand Year Door's subtitle isn't dropped, nor did they force to standardize the game as "Paper Mario RPG". I do wonder if they're keeping the "Super Mario RPG 2" moniker for a proper Square-Enix collaborated sequel.

 

[Rampo360]

TTYD is a remake actually.

I haven't played the original but it seems like a graphical only remake like Metroid. My only wish is they add a breezy mode like SMRPG.

 

[BassForever]

I always saw her as based on Fwoosh from Mario 64. Dunno if that was the intention though.

Also people who think Flurrie isn't useful in combat don't realize Gale Force is basically a OHKO to all enemies that nets you EXP

She's still mid tier among the partners in the original. She's not laughable busted like Goombella or Yoshi, but she's not meme tier bad like Mowz.

 

[AstroOhHey]

I still think the backtracking complaints with TTYD are insanely overstated. I mean obviously the issue is there, but unless I'm forgetting how it felt the first time I played the game it always feels pretty quick to get through? At the same time, it also feels like the easiest thing in the world to just put in PM1's spin or a run button in this to combat that issue.

Also Flurrie is probably also my least favorite partner but I dunno, she still left an impression on me. I honestly think TTYD's partners all easily trump every other PM game's partners besides maybe Lady Bow/Olivia. Most of PM1's barely have personalities and there's been a few times when replaying it I forgot for awhile Sushi/Lakilester even exist before reaching their chapters.

 

[ziggyrivers]

Unless they have absolutely changed the logical progression of the game, it feels more like a remaster than a remake.

Metroid Prime Remastered complicates things a bit because that game is obviously a remake, but was marketed as a remaster.

Paper Mario, on the other hand, unlike Prime Remastered, doesn't have the remastered subtitle, and is being promoted like SMRPG: no remake subtitle, but it's a remake.

 

[Ylork]

Metroid Prime Remastered complicates things a bit because that game is obviously a remake, but was marketed as a remaster.

Paper Mario, on the other hand, unlike Prime Remastered, doesn't have the remastered subtitle, and is being promoted like SMRPG: no remake subtitle, but it's a remake.

Yes, it was a mistake to add 'Remastered' for Metroid Prime. This game should have been called "Metroid Prime", only. Like Super Mario RPG or Paper Mario TTYD.

 

[Smash Kirby]

Metroid Prime Remastered complicates things a bit because that game is obviously a remake, but was marketed as a remaster.

Paper Mario, on the other hand, unlike Prime Remastered, doesn't have the remastered subtitle, and is being promoted like SMRPG: no remake subtitle, but it's a remake.

Metroid Prime Remastered is running the same game logic as the Trilogy version of Metroid Prime. Only the graphics and a couple of exploits were changed.

 

[amiigo]

Metroid Prime Remastered is running the same game logic as the Trilogy version of Metroid Prime. Only the graphics and a couple of exploits were changed.

You could say the same for, say, Demon's Souls, and that's also a remake

 

[Stilt Village]

This is always the most inane argument because nobody involved actually agrees what the words they're using mean to begin with.

 

[SiG]

Metroid Prime Remastered complicates things a bit because that game is obviously a remake, but was marketed as a remaster.

Paper Mario, on the other hand, unlike Prime Remastered, doesn't have the remastered subtitle, and is being promoted like SMRPG: no remake subtitle, but it's a remake.

I would consider them both Remasters more than Remakes. Remakes entail remaking the entire game design-wise, and not just graphically, but architecturally/complete level design overhauls i.e. the gameplay has been totally remade.

 

[ziggyrivers]

Agree to disagree: Graphical Remake

HD Remasters = upscaled graphics

These “remasters” had a lot of work put graphically

These are the definitions I propose in these specific cases

 

[VintoWin]

I should have clarified that I thought it was a remaster when I first saw it but then quickly realized it was a full-blown remake.

It's most definitely a remake.

 

[Adulfzen]

one thing I've noticed with the remaster/remake discourse is that it seems usually to be purely vibes based rather than based on an objective on the kind of work done for a project.

 

[Cheetah6442]

I would consider them both Remasters more than Remakes. Remakes entail remaking the entire game design-wise, and not just graphically, but architecturally/complete level design overhauls i.e. the gameplay has been totally remade.

You are describing reimaginings amigo, not remakes. Final Fantasy 7 and to a lesser extent Resident Evil 4 for examples are reimaginings. Again, remakes can be 1:1.

 

[DecoReturns]

Y’all. That ain’t a remake or a remaster.

That’s Paper Mario.

Silly gooses.

 

[Hailinel]

You are describing reimaginings amigo, not remakes. Final Fantasy 7 and to a lesser extent Resident Evil 4 for examples are reimaginings. Again, remakes can be 1:1.

Reimaginings are stil remakes. The first FF7R is literally titled Remake.

Film remakes, unless we're talking specifically about something like the shot-for-shot remake of Psycho, frequently reimagine the original material. John Carpenter's The Thing has the same basic premise as The Thing From Another World, but it takes a completely different approach to the material.

 

[Mekanos]

It’s obviously a remakester

 

[ziggyrivers]

It’s obviously a remakester

This is funny but accurate at the same time xD

 

[Bulborb]

To me, if a game is just ported with higher resolution its a remaster, but if its like Paper Mario ttyd and Metroid prime remaster with all new textures remade for the game then its a remake. (even though metroid prime remaster is called a remaster)

 

[SiG]

Agree to disagree: Graphical Remake

HD Remasters = upscaled graphics

These “remasters” had a lot of work put graphically

These are the definitions I propose in these specific cases

To me, if a game is just ported with higher resolution its a remaster, but if its like Paper Mario ttyd and Metroid prime remaster with all new textures remade for the game then its a remake. (even though metroid prime remaster is called a remaster)

You're using graphics solely as a qualifier of remastering vs remaking.

For me, remaking entails some discernable gameplay deviations as a major defining factor, not just aesthetics/graphics.

You are describing reimaginings amigo, not remakes. Final Fantasy 7 and to a lesser extent Resident Evil 4 for examples are reimaginings. Again, remakes can be 1:1.

Final Fantasy 7 Remake and Resident Evil 4 are both Remakes because their gameplay has been completely overhauled. In the latter's case, it still borrows heavily from it's original incarnation, but has changed how certain systems work (like the thing with the collectibles) and even how levels/events play out, and in FFVII's case, it switched from being a turned-based RPG to being an action RPG, which is a huge change gameplaywise.

Reimaginings are part of Remakes, because the game itself is remade but not built quite the same way. Again, Resident Evil for GameCube versus Saturn is a good example: The GameCube Remake added gameplay elements such as Crimson Head zombies, completely changed the layout of the mansion, Lisa Trevor subplot and character/boss battle, and changed puzzles completely.

A Remaster can have a complete engine change and other technical overhauls, but if it decides to follow its original source material faithfully in a mostly 1:1 fashio, perhaps with deviations here and there, then it can qualify as something more along the lines of a Remaster. Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition would fall under this, for instance.

Now something like Another Code Recollection, on the other hand, would truely be teetering the line between a Remaster and a Remake, as it does require overhauling some significant gameplay elements to suit the Switch's format vs. the Nintendo DS, and some pacing changes/gameplay scenarios were rearranged for this purpose.

 

[Nabbit]

To me, if a game is just ported with higher resolution its a remaster, but if its like Paper Mario ttyd and Metroid prime remaster with all new textures remade for the game then its a remake. (even though metroid prime remaster is called a remaster)

This is the definition I go by, too. If the graphical elements are remade from the ground up, it's a remake. I also consider a complete reimagining to be a remake. I basically think of it as a remake unless it's an up-res'd or minorly tweaked port.

 

[Bulborb]

You're using graphics solely as a qualifier of remastering vs remaking.

For me, remaking entails some discernable gameplay deviations as a major defining factor, not just aesthetics/graphics.

Final Fantasy 7 Remake and Resident Evil 4 are both Remakes because their gameplay has been completely overhauled. In the latter's case, it still borrows heavily from it's original incarnation, but has changed how certain systems work (like the thing with the collectibles) and even how levels/events play out, and in FFVII's case, it switched from being a turned-based RPG to being an action RPG, which is a huge change gameplaywise.

Reimaginings are part of Remakes, because the game itself is remade but not built quite the same way.

I get that point. But here is my dumb analogy. If you make a burger and I like that burger and I want you to remake the same burger. You put the same ingredients on it also in the same order. Its a newely cooked patty with new cheese and new lettuce etc. in the exact same order. Its legit the same burger but its been remade.

I personally think ff7 Remake even though its called remake is more of a Reboot than a remake. The story is similar sure, but Its been cut into two separate games compared to the first original release on ps1, The genre of game has even changed from jrpg to action rpg (sometimes it even feels like a hack and slash like devil may cry) The original didint have voice acting and this one does. I think ff7 remake and rebirth are so far different from the original that to me personally they feel like reboots. (even though they are fantastic!)

Thats just my opinion though lol

 

[SiG]

I get that point. But here is my dumb analogy. If you make a burger and I like that burger and I want you to remake the same burger. You put the same ingredients on it also in the same order. Its a newely cooked patty with new cheese and new lettuce etc. in the exact same order. Its legit the same burger but its been remade.

The question will always be "are you using the same meat and sourcing the ingredients from the same place for that burger". It's about the substance, not the superficials.

If what you're playing is essentially a different game altogether from its original, it's a remake. If you're playing the "best" version of the same game, it's a remaster.

 

[Weiss]

It's a version up.

 

[Marce-chan]

I mean if we used the criteria we generally use to qualify Nintendo games as remasters/remakes/ports, then The Last of Us Remastered would be a port and The Last of Us Part I would be a remaster.

 

[scamander]

They remade the game from scratch. Doesn't matter that it's faithful to the original, it's still a remake. Remasters are based on the original code, which is not the case with TTYD. Also Nintendo remasters usually (though not always) get an "HD" slapped on the title, like with the just one month later released Luigi's Mansion 2.

 

[Bulborb]

They remade the game from scratch. Doesn't matter that it's faithful to the original, it's still a remake. Nintendo remasters usually get an "HD" slapped on the title, like with the just one month later released Luigi's Mansion 2.

Yes

 

[VintoWin]

It's a remake that adheres faithfully to the original.

They added so much like animation work though, but if you aren't looking at the details you probably forgot that stuff wasn't there.

Just go watch comparison videos, guys. It clears everything up.

 

[Lugia667]

I mean no one in their right might would call Mario RPG a simple remaster right?

 

[Hailinel]

They remade the game from scratch.

What is the proof that this is the case?

 

[T-Hell]

What is the proof that this is the case?

I don't know if there's proof but I think it's pretty evident, especially in some pictures. Like VintoWin said, it's a faithful remake.

 

[Lugia667]

I feel like it's definitely been remade in the new paper mario engine at the very least

 

[Cheetah6442]

You're using graphics solely as a qualifier of remastering vs remaking.

For me, remaking entails some discernable gameplay deviations as a major defining factor, not just aesthetics/graphics.

Final Fantasy 7 Remake and Resident Evil 4 are both Remakes because their gameplay has been completely overhauled. In the latter's case, it still borrows heavily from it's original incarnation, but has changed how certain systems work (like the thing with the collectibles) and even how levels/events play out, and in FFVII's case, it switched from being a turned-based RPG to being an action RPG, which is a huge change gameplaywise.

Reimaginings are part of Remakes, because the game itself is remade but not built quite the same way. Again, Resident Evil for GameCube versus Saturn is a good example: The GameCube Remake added gameplay elements such as Crimson Head zombies, completely changed the layout of the mansion, Lisa Trevor subplot and character/boss battle, and changed puzzles completely.

A Remaster can have a complete engine change and other technical overhauls, but if it decides to follow its original source material faithfully in a mostly 1:1 fashio, perhaps with deviations here and there, then it can qualify as something more along the lines of a Remaster. Xenoblade Chronicles Definitive Edition would fall under this, for instance.

Now something like Another Code Recollection, on the other hand, would truely be teetering the line between a Remaster and a Remake, as it does require overhauling some significant gameplay elements to suit the Switch's format vs. the Nintendo DS, and some pacing changes/gameplay scenarios were rearranged for this purpose.

By your definition, games like SMRPG and Mario vs Donkey for the Switch are not remakes then, since their faithful recreations and don't deviate much from their original sources and with major changes only coming from a technical/graphical sense. I'm sorry, but this is a flawed interpretation of a remake. Changes in a game design don't have to be that drastic.

 

[BassForever]

Reimaginings are stil remakes. The first FF7R is literally titled Remake.

Film remakes, unless we're talking specifically about something like the shot-for-shot remake of Psycho, frequently reimagine the original material. John Carpenter's The Thing has the same basic premise as The Thing From Another World, but it takes a completely different approach to the material.

Um actually

Technically John Carpenter's film is more faithful to the original short story. It's the 50's film that basically took the title and general premise (people trapped in the artic with an alien) and made something completely different with it.

 

[T-Hell]

It's very simple. If the whole graphics and modelings and yadayada it's brand new, then it's a remake, because the game has been REMADE, even if mechanically or gameplay-wise it's identical, which usually is not because there's always some QoL improvements or modernized controls or whatever.

 

[Bulborb]

It's very simple. If the whole graphics and modelings and yadayada it's brand new, then it's a remake, because the game has been REMADE, even if mechanically or gameplay-wise it's identical, which usually is not because there's always some QoL improvements or modernized controls or whatever.

Exactly lol