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Pre-Release Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (2024) — Pre-release Discussion Thread

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The freaking twist in Boggly Woods (EDIT:actually Twilight Town) is one of the greatest moments in a Mario game (I knew it beforehand, but it's still awesome). You are fighting against this freaking ghost and when you think you've won and got out of here... you realize you've been played! There's a certain irony in Mario eating the wall backtracking all around while having to avoid conflict (no partners with those singing flowers will almost certainly kill you, trust me), coming back to a village to see a Mario who talks full sentences in a dialogue box (!), standing among your friends, then eating the wall once again going back (oh don't forget to avoid fighting said Mario when passing by the cabin), uncover a secret cave, then another secret room, all to find a freaking letter to add to the digital keyboard to type the name of your imposter (almost like the game devs anticipated people looking on the web for the name...). Then you AGAIN travel the forest to be able to fight the imposter.

You think it's over? LOL NO.
Once the imposter is defeated, BACK TO THE MANSION AGAIN for a final confrontation.
It's truly the first backtracking that's the most tricky, once you get Vivian in the village and the invisible ability the others are less hard.
 
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Eh, I'm seeing a lot of downplaying on all sides.

Thousand-Year Door has a good story with plenty of memorable characters and moments. Vivian and her story are fantastic, Peach and TEC's story is interesting, and a lot of the writing is funny. It's not the deepest story in a game I've ever played, but it's definitely good, and takes some interesting turns, especially heading into the finale.

Having said that, I think Super Paper Mario likely has the strongest overall narrative in the series, with the best villains and the best story climax. Yeah, the gameplay itself is a huge departure, and it's not my overall favorite, but I admire how much it swings for the fences.

Color Splash tends to get overlooked and I'm convinced a lot of people just haven't played it, because even though it has a weak overaching plot, it has VERY clever smaller scenario writings. Things like the weird time travel hotel, the pirate island, and the famous shy guy on the train, all great.

And Origami King probably has the best humor in the series, it's a game that is actually funny in a belly laugh kind of way versus a slight-appreciative-smile way. For that matter, Olivia is probably the most fleshed out partner character in the series, and I really don't think she gets enough credit for how great her writing is.
 
entut1 said:
The freaking twist in Boggly Woods is one of the greatest moments in a Mario game (I knew it beforehand, but it's still awesome). You are fighting against this freaking ghost and when you think you've won and got out of here... you realize you've been played! There's a certain irony in Mario eating the wall backtracking all around while having to avoid conflict (no partners with those singing flowers will almost certainly kill you, trust me), coming back to a village to see a Mario who talks full sentences in a dialogue box (!), standing among your friends, then eating the wall once again going back (oh don't forget to avoid fighting said Mario when passing by the cabin), uncover a secret cave, then another secret room, all to find a freaking letter to add to the digital keyboard to type the name of your imposter (almost like the game devs anticipated people looking on the web for the name...). Then you AGAIN travel the forest to be able to fight the imposter.

You think it's over? LOL NO.
Once the imposter is defeated, BACK TO THE MANSION AGAIN for a final confrontation.
It's truly the first backtracking that's the most tricky, once you get Vivian in the village and the invisible ability the others are less hard.
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Boggly Woods is chapter 2, you're describing Chapter 4.
 
I've never played TTYD but I've read a lot about the backtracking/structure issues. Are we sure the Remake will change that? Was this said on the Japanese website or something?
 
Please refrain from being aggressively condescending to other members especially after a staff post asks a thread to cool down. -xghost777, Irene, PixelKnight
AngryAlchemist said:
It's raccoon. Pretty sure it's mostly a joke and not that literal.
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Stop batting for people and saying they're just joking. It being a "joke" doesn't remove any intentions or emotional aggression behind it.

Learn what a joke is.
 
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Amadeus said:
I've never played TTYD but I've read a lot about the backtracking/structure issues. Are we sure the Remake will change that? Was this said on the Japanese website or something?
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all speculation, we don't know anything yet

I can see them changing the general white quest but chapter 4's backtracking is rooted in the structure of it pretty deeply (and isn't that bad tbh). they could add a fast travel pipe between the mansion and village, but that would cut the playtime of the chapter too much. I like that the chapter does something different, think the backtracking complaints are overblown
 
WestEgg said:
Eh, I'm seeing a lot of downplaying on all sides.

Thousand-Year Door has a good story with plenty of memorable characters and moments. Vivian and her story are fantastic, Peach and TEC's story is interesting, and a lot of the writing is funny. It's not the deepest story in a game I've ever played, but it's definitely good, and takes some interesting turns, especially heading into the finale.

Having said that, I think Super Paper Mario likely has the strongest overall narrative in the series, with the best villains and the best story climax. Yeah, the gameplay itself is a huge departure, and it's not my overall favorite, but I admire how much it swings for the fences.

Color Splash tends to get overlooked and I'm convinced a lot of people just haven't played it, because even though it has a week overaching plot, it has VERY clever smaller scenario writings. Things like the weird time travel hotel, the pirate island, and the famous shy guy on the train, all great.

And Origami King probably has the best humor in the series, it's a game that is actually funny in a belly laugh kind of way versus a slight-appreciative-smile way. For that matter, Olivia is probably the most fleshed out partner character in the series, and I really don't think she gets enough credit for how great her writing is.
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389.gif


Where is the Sticker Star and 64 writeup
 
Selarmor said:
Chapter 4 is my favorite. I dislike the backtracking, but only indirectly--I wish the Steeple would have been bigger, and it feels like the backtracking was added to compensate for that.

Boggly Woods is weird, because I actually love the first part of that chapter. The woods themselves, and the subplot with the Sirens, is cool. The tree drags the whole thing down though.


I found TTYD incredibly easy even the first time I played it, because I realized early on how OP badges (especially Jumpman) were. I was really surprised BP caps out at 99. If they want to make the game more difficult the easiest thing they could do is cap BP at a much lower number, like how PM64 did.
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Capping BP wouldn't do much because there's just so many ways to completely break PM TTYD without needing an excess of BP. You can either buff Mario to absurd heights and give him double turns with Rally wink, or set up Peril Goombella to one shot anything in the game multibonk where even if something goes wrong Mario is still healthy.

WestEgg said:
Eh, I'm seeing a lot of downplaying on all sides.

Thousand-Year Door has a good story with plenty of memorable characters and moments. Vivian and her story are fantastic, Peach and TEC's story is interesting, and a lot of the writing is funny. It's not the deepest story in a game I've ever played, but it's definitely good, and takes some interesting turns, especially heading into the finale.

Having said that, I think Super Paper Mario likely has the strongest overall narrative in the series, with the best villains and the best story climax. Yeah, the gameplay itself is a huge departure, and it's not my overall favorite, but I admire how much it swings for the fences.

Color Splash tends to get overlooked and I'm convinced a lot of people just haven't played it, because even though it has a week overaching plot, it has VERY clever smaller scenario writings. Things like the weird time travel hotel, the pirate island, and the famous shy guy on the train, all great.

And Origami King probably has the best humor in the series, it's a game that is actually funny in a belly laugh kind of way versus a slight-appreciative-smile way. For that matter, Olivia is probably the most fleshed out partner character in the series, and I really don't think she gets enough credit for how great her writing is.
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I think it's weird to compare the partner writing of the old and new PM games. You're comparing writing for one consistent partner over the whole game vs 7-8 partners most of which only get 1 chapter of focus. The newer PM partners are also much more intrinsically tied to the main narrative and you couldn't really write them out. The old partners were people who were similarly impacted by the ongoing events and join Mario to help set things right, most of them could have conceivably left after their chapter was done to return to their "day job" so speak.
 
Amadeus said:
I've never played TTYD but I've read a lot about the backtracking/structure issues. Are we sure the Remake will change that? Was this said on the Japanese website or something?
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There's no evidence they've made changes to the game's structure yet, but the trailer does have a brand-new NPC with a unique design in the background.

If they're making changes at all, hopefully they're taking steps to sand off the rougher edges of the design.
 
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AngryAlchemist said:
389.gif


Where is the Sticker Star and 64 writeup
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64 is charming and has more of a unique identity than people give it credit for (I think it kind of lives in TTYD's shadow and so people assume it's like a proto-version of it), it feels the most "Mario" of the Paper Mario games.

lol I didn't play Sticker Star. Didn't have a 3DS when it came out, and never had the urge to go back and play it.
 
Amadeus said:
I've never played TTYD but I've read a lot about the backtracking/structure issues. Are we sure the Remake will change that? Was this said on the Japanese website or something?
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It's more that the way IS designs exploration in PM games significantly changes past SPM. Before, the approach was kind of heavier on backtracking. Given how blatant backtracking is in parts of TTYD, it's probably bound to some good changes, given how this is a remake and how it already mixes in the good aspects of modern PM (art direction having more realistic paper materials, dialogue boxe sounds being special depending on the character).
 
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WestEgg said:
64 is charming and has more of a unique identity than people give it credit for (I think it kind of lives in TTYD's shadow and so people assume it's like a proto-version of it), it feels the most "Mario" of the Paper Mario games.

lol I didn't play Sticker Star. Didn't have a 3DS when it came out, and never had the urge to go back and play it.
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the big thing of 64 for me is that I never played a Mario game with one huge interconnected world before so it felt revolutionnary (especially when looking at that map, reinforced the feeling of adventure)
 
WestEgg said:
lol I didn't play Sticker Star. Didn't have a 3DS when it came out, and never had the urge to go back and play it.
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I've played Sticker Star three times and I still barely remember the game's plot. NPCs with speaking roles were rare.

Not a great game.
 
BassForever said:
I think it's weird to compare the partner writing of the old and new PM games. You're comparing writing for one consistent partner over the whole game vs 7-8 partners most of which only get 1 chapter of focus. The newer PM partners are also much more intrinsically tied to the main narrative and you couldn't really write them out. The old partners were people who were similarly impacted by the ongoing events and join Mario to help set things right, most of them could have conceivably left after their chapter was done to return to their "day job" so speak.
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I don't really see the issue. Tippi was the first "main partner" character, more games have had them now than have not, and Olivia is the best one. Yeah, no character in TTYD fills the same role with the same screen time, but that doesn't mean I still can't say she's probably the best written character in the series, possibly excepting Count Bleck.
 
Tinarg said:
I've played Sticker Star three times and I still barely remember the game's plot. NPCs with speaking roles were rare.

Not a great game.
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Shout-out to purple coat Toad and his Boo-filled mansion. There's also the Wiggler in the forest who loses a lot of his body parts for some reason (they running around). The maskass jeopardy. Also it was kind of nice to have an airship level in a Paper Mario game.
 
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BassForever said:
Capping BP wouldn't do much because there's just so many ways to completely break PM TTYD without needing an excess of BP. You can either buff Mario to absurd heights and give him double turns with Rally wink, or set up Peril Goombella to one shot anything in the game multibonk where even if something goes wrong Mario is still healthy.
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A lot of those buffs involve badges, though, and the vast majority of people aren't gonna put Mario or partners at a specific HP value to maximize damage output. Most people do, however, realize investing in BP is broken relative to investing in HP or FP.
 
Since TTYD seems to take some inspiration from 64 in some aspects, there is something that could be theorically done. For the people who do not know, TTYD has a reunion with Bow, a partner from 64. If you know that, what you might not know is that literally EVERY 64 partner has an updated design/character model in the TTYD build but none of them except Bow and Parakarry are used. They are fully functional but unused, so maybe there were other partner reunions but they had to cut them for time?

In the sight of a remake, this could be stuff that's actually used, especially if they repassed every model of the original build to translate them to this new style.
 
64's writing for partners is actually somewhat similar to the recent games, where you go through a character's little story and then once you recruit them they stop having much character development. Actually, Origami King had more character development per partner a lot of the times, since usually you were done with that entire area before the partners exited, whereas in 64 the partners do stay in your group, but they become mute pretty quickly once their story is resolved, even before leaving their area.

That's probably in part why TTYD fan arguments are so contentious, it's the only game in the series (from what I know) that has that specific style of partner writing.
 
WestEgg said:
I don't really see the issue. Tippi was the first "main partner" character, more games have had them now than have not, and Olivia is the best one. Yeah, no character in TTYD fills the same role with the same screen time, but that doesn't mean I still can't say she's probably the best written character in the series, possibly excepting Count Bleck.
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My point was more the intention behind how the characters were written. Tippi, Kirsty, Huey, and Olivia are characters who the central conflict of their games is written around, and are given far more attention and screen time compared to say Goombario who's entire character was "is a Mario fanboy" and "has a loving family". I'd compare the later Paper Mario partners more to some of the 3d game partners like Cappy and FLUUD.

I hate to "capcom function" the older Paper Mario partners, but when I think about why I like them it's their impact on gameplay and exploring the world that excites me more then how they're written. That isn't to say the writing isn't important, but I'm far more forgiving of say Watt being a one dimensional no depth character because she's strong in combat and has a very useful ability to help find hidden chest. Getting a new party member in PM/TTYD/SPM is exciting because they open up new paths and new options in combat, I have very different expectations for them then I do a main character like Tippi or Olivia.
 
BassForever said:
You're comparing writing for one consistent partner over the whole game vs 7-8 partners most of which only get 1 chapter of focus. The newer PM partners are also much more intrinsically tied to the main narrative and you couldn't really write them out. The old partners were people who were similarly impacted by the ongoing events and join Mario to help set things right, most of them could have conceivably left after their chapter was done to return to their "day job" so speak.
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That difference in design is still fair game to critique though, no? Constricting character development to single chapters leaves their stories feeling pretty one-note. Yes, it's by design, but the design itself is a tad restrictive (though it comes with its own merits). From what I've seen of The Origami King, it blends both aspects fairly well.

I personally feel that with Mario being mute, a consistent character that develops through the game is something PM64 and TTYD could've used. Twink and TEC do kinda fill this, but you barely see them.

Selarmor said:
A lot of those buffs involve badges, though, and the vast majority of people aren't gonna put Mario or partners at a specific HP value to maximize damage output. Most people do, however, realize investing in BP is broken relative to investing in HP or FP.
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From my personal experience, kids don't lol (I received TTYD when it was new for my 6th birthday, as I really enjoyed the original).
 
Some trivia: you can actually mod in the OK partners by adding them to the save file when they're not in the party (provided you've got what's needed for modding). You can add a lot of them, the game's party system seemingly allows at least 4 partners at a time. Every of them (except some Toads) have attack abilities (Bone Goomba and Spike included, even if their ride with Mario is extremely short so you may not even see their attacks).
 
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entut1 said:
Since TTYD seems to take some inspiration from 64 in some aspects, there is something that could be theorically done. For the people who do not know, TTYD has a reunion with Bow, a partner from 64. If you know that, what you might not know is that literally EVERY 64 partner has an updated design/character model in the TTYD build but none of them except Bow and Parakarry are used. They are fully functional but unused, so maybe there were other partner reunions but they had to cut them for time?

In the sight of a remake, this could be stuff that's actually used, especially if they repassed every model of the original build to translate them to this new style.
Click to expand...
It would be cool if as like a late game extra you could team up with them again and use them in battle, assuming they implement them into the game. Ideally a small epilogue where they meet the TTYD cast would be what I'd want most tho.
 
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brainchild said:
The phenomenon is visible within the observer's line of sight along the incident rays' angle of reflection. In this case, the "observer" is the camera, and as long as a camera is pointed at a surface at a grazing angle, reflections should be visible. In this case, Mario's position does not matter, the camera's position with respect to the surface does.

Here's a video that demonstrates the phenomenon:



The only way to disprove Fresnel with TTYD is to move the camera overhead. The way the camera is currently positioned in most scenes, the floor/ground is viewed at a glancing angle appropriate for Fresnel reflections. They're visible to some degree on all the floor/ground materials I could see (though with different degrees of specularity), granted I haven't done extensive analysis on the footage yet.
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I think you're taking a shitpost a little too seriously.

I also don't think being surprised that a material is glossier than you expected means you don't know how light works. The intensity of gloss will be different for different surfaces. If you entered a baking competition and were asked to make a mirror glaze and then screwed up by not having the right level of gelatin or letting it be chilled before judging, I don't think you'll win a blue ribbon if you tell the judges to just stand back far enough until they see the reflection.

We also can't always equally compare the way reflections work in real life to games. For static objects, you can bake reflection probes. Moving the camera may not reveal much. A reflection probe is essentially just taking a snapshot of the environment and won't update with dynamic objects. Metal Mario in Mario 64 uses a texture of a pink flower field under a sky that doesn't resemble anything in the game to create his reflections. I think it's more important to look at what the artists are trying to simulate.

But also you're kind of ignoring what I said about how only Mario's floor reflects dynamic objects while no other floor does even other wood floors like the professor's study that was the basis for this. But like, it was a shitpost
 
Magic-Man said:
As someone that actually reads a lot of books, saying "video game fans need to pick up a book if they think ____ game has a good story" is an absolute dogshit take. People relate to different media in different ways and can connect to a story for different reasons, including being attached to the characters already and the ramifications of story beats in otherwise chill narratives. Some people also might prefer a visual to look at to help convey the emotion. Seriously, what's going on in this thread today?
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video games can have good stories but no video game has a good enough story to be a snob to other people who like another video game's story
 
EtherPenguin said:
I think you're taking a shitpost a little too seriously.

I also don't think being surprised that a material is glossier than you expected means you don't know how light works. The intensity of gloss will be different for different surfaces. If you entered a baking competition and were asked to make a mirror glaze and then screwed up by not having the right level of gelatin or letting it be chilled before judging, I don't think you'll win a blue ribbon if you tell the judges to just stand back far enough until they see the reflection.

We also can't always equally compare the way reflections work in real life to games. For static objects, you can bake reflection probes. Moving the camera may not reveal much. A reflection probe is essentially just taking a snapshot of the environment and won't update with dynamic objects. Metal Mario in Mario 64 uses a texture of a pink flower field under a sky that doesn't resemble anything in the game to create his reflections. I think it's more important to look at what the artists are trying to simulate.

But also you're kind of ignoring what I said about how only Mario's floor reflects dynamic objects while no other floor does even other wood floors like the professor's study that was the basis for this. But like, it was a shitpost
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I posted what I did as a response to a misconception, even among people who have a decent understanding of how lighting works. Fresnel applies to virtually everything.

In the footage released so far, we can see Fresnel reflections even on the grass and ocean, which are made of paper craft, due to the camera angle and a presumably physically-based renderer. I can post screens of examples if you would like.
 
Raccoon said:
video games can have good stories but no video game has a good enough story to be a snob to other people who like another video game's story
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This feels steeped heavily in the "video games aren't real media/art/so on" idea. No story or element of media ever is enough to be a snob in regards to another for having a differing opinion.
 
Mango said:
This feels steeped heavily in the "video games aren't real media/art/so on" idea. No story or element of media ever is enough to be a snob in regards to another for having a differing opinion.
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How do you derive that from "no story in any media is worth being a snob about"?
 
Magic-Man said:
What's the point you're trying to make here?
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do not belittle people because they like the wrong funny bing bong man game

Mango said:
This feels steeped heavily in the "video games aren't real media/art/so on" idea. No story or element of media ever is enough to be a snob in regards to another for having a differing opinion.
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fair enough. the medium of video games caught my strays
 
brainchild said:
I posted what I did as a response to a misconception, even among people who have a decent understanding of how lighting works. Fresnel applies to virtually everything.

In the footage released so far, we can see Fresnel reflections even on the grass and ocean, which are made of paper craft, due to the camera angle and a presumably physically-based renderer. I can post screens of examples if you would like.
Click to expand...
That's the part I agree with you on and was never in question. I'm talking about how only one surface in the game reflects dynamic objects. And I just brought it up to make a shitpost pondering if paper and wood coexist in this world.


bobs-burgers-oh-my-god.gif
 
EtherPenguin said:
That's the part I agree with you on and was never in question. I'm talking about how only one surface in the game reflects dynamic objects. And I just brought it up to make a shitpost pondering if paper and wood coexist in this world.


bobs-burgers-oh-my-god.gif
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There are literally dozens of dynamic objects in that footage that are reflected in all types of materials. I'll post some examples in a bit.
 
Imagine how satisfying Art Attack would be if they let you use the touch screen to draw around the enemies. I doubt such would be the case though.
 
Hailinel said:
How do you derive that from "no story in any media is worth being a snob about"?
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Derive what? I'm just saying we should respect people's tastes and opinions, while also not generalizing/downplaying the gaming media. How someone perceives a story is mostly subjective.
 
Raccoon said:
would you argue that there's a video game story good enough to justify being a snob to other people who like another video game's story?
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If we're going by the logic in film, then surely the logic must apply in games, whether you think being a snob is valid or not lol. Criticizing (in a valid way) is allowed in multiple mediums for multiple aspects. Some people aren't fond of the MCU because they think its technical aspects/the story aren't very good and compare them to better put together blockbusters. Surely people can criticize video games and their story aspect and compare them and think one is better than the other. Just don't harass the other.
 
Mango said:
Derive what? I'm just saying we should respect people's tastes and opinions, while also not generalizing/downplaying the gaming media. How someone perceives a story is mostly subjective.
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The point you were responding to argued exactly this.
 
EtherPenguin said:
I truly do not care
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In that case I won't bother wasting my time, but please understand that a distinction should always be made between a factual claim and what you suggest is a "shitpost". I have no issue with you pontificating on the material physics in a fictional world like Paper Mario (which is what you're suggesting was your main point), but the claims upon which your "shitpost" are based (Mario being uniquely reflected in one type of material, no other dynamic objects reflected in other materials, etc) were objectively false and I thought it would be helpful to point that out to those who either may have been confused/misguided by such claims or don't understand how Fresnel works in general.
 
Raccoon likes meme-esque posts and you can feel it in the way he comments. I understood right away what he said the first time but still you can't deny the way he puts together those doesn't look meme-ish as heck.
 
entut1 said:
Raccoon likes meme-esque posts and you can feel it in the way he comments. I understood right away what he said the first time but still you can't deny the way he puts together those doesn't look meme-ish as heck.
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I unyieldingly aspire towards but can never quite reach the heights of x dot com user dril
 
Anyways, I'm curious if any new badges will be added. I'm sure they'll add a few that make the game easier for casuals but some more cosmetic ones would be nice. I'm also curious if the Waluigi element of being able to mix the Luigi and wario badge will kept or if they'll just make a Waluigi one.
 
i’m gonna say something fucking disgusting:

what if videos were games
 
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