Pre-Release Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (2024) — Pre-release Discussion Thread (UPDATE: launch trailer, see threadmarks)

[Octavian]

Anyways, I'm curious if any new badges will be added. I'm sure they'll add a few that make the game easier for casuals but some more cosmetic ones would be nice. I'm also curious if the Waluigi element of being able to mix the Luigi and wario badge will kept or if they'll just make a Waluigi one.

the game already is really easy, not sure what they could add

 

[The Captain]

the game already is really easy, not sure what they could add

-Spin from 64
-Any more cosmetic badges would be welcome

 

[Gingerbread Man]

64 is charming and has more of a unique identity than people give it credit for (I think it kind of lives in TTYD's shadow and so people assume it's like a proto-version of it), it feels the most "Mario" of the Paper Mario games.

lol I didn't play Sticker Star. Didn't have a 3DS when it came out, and never had the urge to go back and play it.

Eh, I feel the opposite, TTYD is a more refined version of PM64. They really have a lot in common. And while TTYD is arguably better on a chapter-by-chapter basis, PM64 has a really special interconnected world and an unique "Mario" feeling.

 

[Raccoon]

i’m gonna say something fucking disgusting:

what if videos were games

the sega cd has entered the chat

 

[entut1]

To me honestly, the fact there's such passion in debates about PM goes to show how much people care about this series. It happens to Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Pokemon, but like... those are all game series full of prestige and considered like greats of their respective genres. So like, it's certainly not getting forgotten any time soon...

 

[Suswave]

if this somehow dethrones Color Splash as my absolute favorite Paper Mario game, i’ll owe y’all $20

 

[Suswave]

i’m a shitposter but i’m dead fucking serious

Color Splash is an incredible game

 

[EtherPenguin]

In that case I won't bother wasting my time, but please understand that a distinction should always be made between a factual claim and what you suggest is a "shitpost". I have no issue with you pontificating on the material physics in a fictional world like Paper Mario (which is what you're suggesting was your main point), but the claims upon which your "shitpost" are based (Mario being uniquely reflected in one type of material, no other dynamic objects reflected in other materials, etc) were objectively false and I thought it would be helpful to point that out to those who either may have been confused/misguided by such claims or don't understand how Fresnel works in general.

Given some thought, I will apologize. By dynamics, I'm talking about characters. I still don't really see reflections of the characters on petal meadow grass or the glitz pit cobblestone. I see it strongly in Mario's house and the battle stage, and weaker reflections on the roofs of Rogueport. And we haven't seen the whole game anyway, I shouldn't have said no dynamic reflection so declaratively and that was indeed an untrue and unnecessary exaggeration. I apologize for this. I do stand by different materials having different gloss intensities though. The floor in Mario's home still looks glossier than anything else we've seen save the battle stage.

I do not really have an apology for my original post though. I talked about having an existential crisis over if wood existed and where the paper came from in the first place. It should be more than clear it was a jokey post for anyone not looking for a reason to be miserable. Re-reading my original post, I don't even really see anything factually wrong with it. I was working with the idea it was more like construction paper, someone responded it was glossy card stock which was the proper response. The quotation marks feel needlessly aggressive and sometimes it feels like there's no fun allowed here.

Yes construction paper is still affected by the fresnel effect but it also undeniably is less glossy than card stock. If we took a dirty old rug and sat it next to a mirror glaze cake and viewed them from the same angle and distance, they would both be affected by the fresnel effect but the cake would be the one with higher reflective intensity. I do not believe acknowledging this in any way implies you're denying the existence of the fresnel effect. Refractive index is a variable in fresnel equations, no? And when you bring something up under just the assumption the person you're talking with doesn't understand and start trying to teach them something they already know, I hope you can reflect on why this would be viewed as very condescending.

But I am sorry for speaking harshly to you, for the needless gif, and my general asshole-ish attitude. I should do better and for those things I am sincerely sorry.

 

[sadsquid]

Yeah I'm thinking all the PM 64 references are just for either continuity, wide-screen necessity or just adding something for fans (the remixed song). Would be cool to see more though, perhaps adding the unused 64 partners in with cameos.

 

[switchum]

I don't totally understand the clamor for Luigi DLC, because it feels to me like the whole point of the Luigi story would be undermined by actually playing it. The difference between Luigi's telling, the books' narrative, and the partners' experiences is important. I've always thought it was meant to mirror the main quest's focus on unreliability and perspective in storytelling.

Here’s the thing: I totally understand where you’re coming from; in fact, this is the exact way I’ve felt for a long time until recently. It would definitely kill the joke… 100%.

But then I started thinking about how perfectly the original game set a potential remake up for a side expansion. Not to say that was intentional when they put the joke in TTYD… I’m sure it was just a silly joke. But regardless, now that they ARE making a remake, it’s this weird case where the original title unintentionally set up a perfect side story that could be translated into a full side-adventure. I’ve never heard of another game that created such an obvious and perfect future addition as side content in a remake. Essentially - it’s so perfectly set up for a side mode that it just makes so much sense to use it for that.

But that doesn’t really solve the problem about the joke being killed, does it? In my honest opinion, I would be happy to trade the functionality of that particular joke for a full side expansion. It’s definitely worth the trade-off for me - in other words, if getting this perfect opportunity for a side expansion ruins one joke, I’d say that’s a fair trade.

Maybe they could even remove the joke but keep Luigi in Rogueport by having you talk to him as Mario to switch modes. Then instead of the monologue he gives you every time, he asks you if you’d like to see how his adventure is going, and you are then prompted to switch to the Luigi side expansion. That way, the joke in its current form is essentially cut from the game, but Luigi maintains a similar role within Rogueport… he just functions similarly to

Spoiler: Pikmin 4 spoiler

Olimar in the postgame of Pikmin 4, where speaking to him triggers Olimar’s Shipwreck Tale.

 

[brainchild]

Given some thought, I will apologize. By dynamics, I'm talking about characters. I still don't really see reflections of the characters on petal meadow grass or the glitz pit cobblestone. I see it strongly in Mario's house and the battle stage, and weaker reflections on the roofs of Rogueport. And we haven't seen the whole game anyway, I shouldn't have said no dynamic reflection so declaratively and that was indeed an untrue and unnecessary exaggeration. I apologize for this. I do stand by different materials having different gloss intensities though. The floor in Mario's home still looks glossier than anything else we've seen save the battle stage.

I do not really have an apology for my original post though. I talked about having an existential crisis over if wood existed and where the paper came from in the first place. It should be more than clear it was a jokey post for anyone not looking for a reason to be miserable. Re-reading my original post, I don't even really see anything factually wrong with it. I was working with the idea it was more like construction paper, someone responded it was glossy card stock which was the proper response. The quotation marks feel needlessly aggressive and sometimes it feels like there's no fun allowed here.

Yes construction paper is still affected by the fresnel effect but it also undeniably is less glossy than card stock. If we took a dirty old rug and sat it next to a mirror glaze cake and viewed them from the same angle and distance, they would both be affected by the fresnel effect but the cake would be the one with higher reflective intensity. I do not believe acknowledging this in any way implies you're denying the existence of the fresnel effect. Refractive index is a variable in fresnel equations, no? And when you bring something up under just the assumption the person you're talking with doesn't understand and start trying to teach them something they already know, I hope you can reflect on why this would be viewed as very condescending.

But I am sorry for speaking harshly to you, for the needless gif, and my general asshole-ish attitude. I should do better and for those things I am sincerely sorry.

No worries at all and no need to apologize. I have no objections to the notion of different materials exhibiting differences in the specularity of Fresnel reflections, as it is generally correct. While all materials reflect 100% of incident light at grazing angles, not all Fresnel reflections appear equally clearly on all surfaces.

Ultimately, I hope people can understand that paper, amongst other rough surfaces, is still specularly reflective at certain angles, as it is not commonly understood by most people to be the case.

 

[SiG]

I posted what I did as a response to a misconception, even among people who have a decent understanding of how lighting works. Fresnel applies to virtually everything.

In the footage released so far, we can see Fresnel reflections even on the grass and ocean, which are made of paper craft, due to the camera angle and a presumably physically-based renderer. I can post screens of examples if you would like.

I think the amount of Fresnel occurances are a bit too over done, atistically speaking. There aren't enough surfaces that have a more diffused lighting look. In fact, I kind of wish there was more bounce lighting on rougher surfaces a la The Origami King as opposed to every surface being made of the same glossy paper material. Too many surfaces exhibit that reflective look and it can be a bit tiring seeing the effect on everything.

I think is the main issue is the lack of material variety in the art direction, some even going so far saying TTYD Switch is a step back to TOK in terms of presentation. I know IntelliSys is capable of delivering more, and that my hope is this is just an earlier build being shown off.

And I also think we've come to expect this game should run at 60fps, given how the original GameCube game ran at that framerate. In any case, I really wish this early preview means there's still room for adjustment when it comes to the graphics. Even the the huge Dooplis stainglass shows some miscoloring compared to its GameCube counterpart.

 

[AtomicZach]

Here’s a hot take. 64’s chapter villains are better designs than TTYD’s. Really the only one I like is Cortez.

I far prefer the more fun Mario enemies with a hat than TTYD’s bosses which were…disappointing to me honestly. Especially since we end up fighting Lord Crump twice and whatever is the smog

 

[Rexskel]

i’m a shitposter but i’m dead fucking serious

Color Splash is an incredible game

Color Splash has great locations, setpieces and a lot of other stuff.

The one thing that was really disappointing for me though was how the bosses now required a special Thing to complete parts of them compared to Sticker Star. That’s why for me the final boss of CS was much more satisfying on the whole than the other bosses in the game, it uses a cool gimmick that doesn’t require you to have a Thing snatched from somewhere outside the boss fight.

 

[brainchild]

I think the amount of Fresnel occurances is a bit too over done, atistically speaking. There aren't enough surfaces that have a more diffused lighting look. In fact, I kind of wish there was more bounce lighting on rougher surfaces a la The Origami King as opposed to every surface being made of the same glossy paper material.

Material variety I think is the main issue some have with the art direction, even going so far as having some say TTYD Switch is a step back to TOK in terms of presentation.

And I also think we've come to expect this game should run at 60fps, given how the original GameCube game ran at that framerate.

I will say, similar to what @Jersh was saying, most games with Fresnel have reflectance and reflectivity parameter values that are not quite correct based on what the IOR is for each material, and the complexity (or lack thereof, relatively speaking) of the shading is part of the reason why. We do not simulate photons interacting with matter at the sub-atomic level, nor do we simulate microfacet detail at scale with real life, so the approximations will fall short of reality until we either use true-to-life simulations or develop more algorithms that account for that complexity while still being more efficient (unlikely without sophisticated AI).

I do agree that material variety could help with art direction, though really, if they want to make the Fresnel less noticeable, they could simply increase the roughness values for the materials and use fewer clear coats. It seems to me that the values they've set are intentional to get this effect, though it will be interesting to how varied the materials are in the full game.

 

[SiG]

I will say, as @Jersh mentioned, most games with Fresnel have reflectance and reflectivity parameter values that are not quite correct based on what the IOR is for each material, and the complexity (or lack thereof, relatively speaking) of the shading is part of the reason why. We do not simulate photons interacting with matter at the sub-atomic level, nor do we simulate microfacet detail at scale with real life, so the approximations will fall short of reality until we either use true-to-life simulations or develop more algorithms that account for that complexity while still being more efficient (unlikely without sophisticated AI).

I do agree that material variety could help with art direction, though really, if they want to make the Fresnel less noticeable, they could simply increase the roughness values for the materials and use fewer clear coats. It seems to me that the values they've set are intentional to get this effect, though it will be interesting to how varied the materials are in the full game.

I think Intelligent Systems and HAL Labratories has a particularly good understanding of physically based rendering on the sysyetm by now. Their experimentations early on have been fruitful, so I'm half-confidently expecting them to push for 60fps while retaining high quality GI effects (real-time, hybrid or otherwise) from their previous titles.

I do think this footage we're seeing is from an earlier build (with localization applied to some clips). There's a lot more to be discussed in terms of TTYDs aspects, including cut-content, potential new localization changes, rebalances to the battle system, and others.

And yes, the biggest talking point: "What's with the SFC colored buttons?"

 

[BassForever]

One thing this remake could do is buff Ms Mowz. Goodness she's so freaking bad in the original game, and she requires more effort to recruit being optional.

 

[Hailinel]

And yes, the biggest talking point: "What's with the SFC colored buttons?"

Visual differentiation between buttons since it's not using the mishmash assortment from the GameCube anymore, probably.

 

[SiG]

Visual differentiation between buttons since it's not using the mishmash assortment from the GameCube anymore, probably.

"mishmash assortment from the GameCube"

I distinctly recall the A button being green on the GameCube, not red. TTYD was following its very recognizable layout. I don't think anything about it was "mishmash".

If it was just a straight up translation over to the Switch's own layout, I doubt they would bother to even make the buttons colored. In fact, I would expect them to match the default black buttons with white text, which has been defacto in every Switch game since its release.

The fact that not only does this button layout crrespond to the Super Famicom/PAL Super Nintendo's layout, but 3 other upcoming Switch games seem to also be utilizing this new glyph template, is much more than mere coincidence.

 

[Hailinel]

"mishmash assortment from the GameCube"

I distinctly recall the A button being green on the GameCube, not red. TTYD was following its very recognizable layout. I don't think anything about it was "mishmash".

If it was just a straight up translation over to the Switch's own layout, I doubt they would bother to even make the buttons colored. In fact, I would expect them to match the default black buttons with white text, which has been defacto in every Switch game since its release.

The fact that not only does this button layout crrespond to the Super Famicom/PAL Super Nintendo's layout, but 3 other upcoming Switch games seem to also be utilizing this new glyph template, is much more than mere coincidence.

I'm speaking more about the button shapes. On the Switch, the four face buttons are identical.

 

[AstroOhHey]

I like Paper Mario

EDIT: Shit missed there was a ton of posts after things went haywire, w/e I stand by my controversial and dare I say brave stance.

 

[SiG]

I'm speaking more about the button shapes. On the Switch, the four face buttons are identical.

True, but considering most ports of older games, Wii U ports, etc. have always standardized the black buttons with white text, now matter what game it was, I find it odd that they would start coloring buttons now (and not just for this game, either).

 

[Superstarxalien]

Here’s a hot take. 64’s chapter villains are better designs than TTYD’s. Really the only one I like is Cortez.

I far prefer the more fun Mario enemies with a hat than TTYD’s bosses which were…disappointing to me honestly. Especially since we end up fighting Lord Crump twice and whatever is the smog

macho grubba is a spike from mario party 10...

 

[EtherPenguin]

True, but considering most ports of older games, Wii U ports, etc. have always standardized the black buttons with white text, now matter what game it was, I find it odd that they would start coloring buttons now (and not just for this game, either).

While not common, someone pointed out a couple days ago, they've used the sfc color scheme before like in Let's Go Pikachu/Evee

 

[Síriocaz]

First thing I'll do is seeing what much changes in the dialogues when the lottery Bob-omb in fancy Rogueport catches you changing the time.

Last time I played TTYD was more than 10 years ago, back then I used to have a super well defined and super efficient path to get me through the game. I'm not sure I will even remember half of it lol It will almost be like playing it for the first time again.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I always enjoy a healthy discussion

 

[The Captain]

I always enjoy a healthy discussion

That is very contradictory to the Famiboards spirit, leave!

 

[Thunder84]

 

[Jersh]

-Spin from 64
-Any more cosmetic badges would be welcome

I remember playing this game at a demo kiosk before I had it and being baffled that I couldn't spin. It was very upsetting for 5 year old me.

It'd feel weird to have it in TTYD now though

 

[Síriocaz]

Personal tier list as I remember it:

Spoiler: Lucky

1. Goombella because of Multibonk
2. Bobbery
3. Vivian
4. Yoshón González
5. Koops
6. Ms. Mowz
7. Flurrie

Not a Flurrie fan, honestly. She always felt stiff to use, and I essentially used to put her on the bench after the Woods chapter.

 

[Thunder84]

I already liked the art direction, but I’m impressed with how well it fits the game. The layered pop-up style is a perfect fit for the “storybook vibe”. Would love to see Super Paper Mario in this style.

On a similar note, I don’t think this style would work as well with Color Splash or Origami King, which both fit the lighthearted arts and crafts kinda thing they got going on. Both styles are great, and hopefully they keep using both in the future depending on which style fits better.

 

[Vladimir]

I haven't played this one yet, I'm looking forward to it. I've heard so many good things about this game over the years.

 

[JR436]

I sometimes wonder if they would have gotten away with Flurrie if TTYD was made today.

 

[SiG]

I already liked the art direction, but I’m impressed with how well it fits the game. The layered pop-up style is a perfect fit for the “storybook vibe”. Would love to see Super Paper Mario in this style.

On a similar note, I don’t think this style would work as well with Color Splash or Origami King, which both fit the lighthearted arts and crafts kinda thing they got going on. Both styles are great, and hopefully they keep using both in the future depending on which style fits better.

I just find the repetative use of glossy materials just a bit too bland, if not having every surface create reflections being overdone. Was hoping they would use more material variety, even tossing in a bit of Origami Kings more craft paper materials.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Thank god the spin will be back. I used it all the time in Paper Mario 64.

 

[Chaos Theory]

Very excited for this but God I wish they'd shadow dropped it.

 

[Bowser Sr.]

Here’s a hot take. 64’s chapter villains are better designs than TTYD’s. Really the only one I like is Cortez.

I far prefer the more fun Mario enemies with a hat than TTYD’s bosses which were…disappointing to me honestly. Especially since we end up fighting Lord Crump twice and whatever is the smog

I think in general, "scenario-wise", a game whose hook is "MARIO BUT A RPG" it's naturally going to be more fun. or more familiar to our hearts atleast, to have something like PM1s Scenario where you're going thru a contextualized Mario World But RPG-fied and with a scenario akin to 'What if Bowser got the power of the stars?!" instead of PM2's scenario which is a bit more dettached from familiar Mario iconography and features major villains that are "evil guy with no personality who wants to rule the world and the equally evil creature who double crosses him with not much personality either", it's a far cry from Bowser who is someone we're naturally more attached to. Or atleast that is how I've felt after all these years trying to figure out why I liked PM1 better than PM2 despite one being the older and simpler game.

 

[JR436]

Thank god the spin will be back. I used it all the time in Paper Mario 64.

Hold up, was this confirmed?

 

[Decoyman]

Here’s a hot take. 64’s chapter villains are better designs than TTYD’s. Really the only one I like is Cortez.

I far prefer the more fun Mario enemies with a hat than TTYD’s bosses which were…disappointing to me honestly. Especially since we end up fighting Lord Crump twice and whatever is the smog

I'd add Grubba to this list as one of the really good TTYD villains. That aside, I don't think this is that hot of a take. TTYD had the novelty of every chapter existing in its own vacuum away from the main story/villains (Lord Crump aside), but I still think Paper Mario was much better at creating a thematic through line with its villains. Almost every chapter villain had a lot of buildup and mystery to them thanks to their direct connection to the main villain. I still remember how Tubba Blubba was played up as a literally invincible boss and how it was easy to believe that because Bowser had already himself achieved that, so the stakes felt really high. It's like you're going through a No More Heroes-type who's who of escalating baddies. The Origami King also did that well, despite settling on stationery rather than familiar Mario denizens.

 

[Jersh]

I think in general, "scenario-wise", a game whose hook is "MARIO BUT A RPG" it's naturally going to be more fun. or more familiar to our hearts atleast, to have something like PM1s Scenario where you're going thru a contextualized Mario World But RPG-fied and with a scenario akin to 'What if Bowser got the power of the stars?!" instead of PM2's scenario which is a bit more dettached from familiar Mario iconography and features major villains that are "evil guy with no personality who wants to rule the world and the equally evil creature who double crosses him with not much personality either", it's a far cry from Bowser who is someone we're naturally more attached to. Or atleast that is how I've felt after all these years trying to figure out why I liked PM1 better than PM2 despite one being the older and simpler game.

Yeah, Paper Mario's world still kinda stands alone as a more realized, lived-in Mushroom Kingdom (unless TOK recreates that feel; I still really need to get to it). It feels grounded in a way that Super Mario RPG and the Mario & Luigi games (that take place in the Mushroom Kingdom) don't. There's not really anything like it across any of the other Mario games, and I think that combined with its rather different art direction (just compare how Mario's sprite looks in that game compared to any of the rest) give it the unique vibe it has. TTYD's different setting is both an asset and a flaw in that sense; seeing Mario in such wacky places is part of the charm, but it does struggle to build up a connection to that world at times (but only at times; sometimes it works flawlessly).

Hold up, was this confirmed?

No.

 

[Phendrift]

PM64 and TTYD fill pretty different roles imo.

PM64 is a great depiction of the mushroom kingdom in an RPG setting. TTYD strikes a balance of great new stuff but it still feels very Mario imo. Like all the new NPC types and enemies still feel Mario-esque. And it’s a GOOD thing to put Mario in settings other than the mushroom kingdom, and Nintendo is starting to take note of that again going by Odyssey and Wonder.

I’d also say Superstar Saga struck this balance very well, it’s SPM where the new stuff started getting a bit abstract and more detached from Mario (and I wouldn’t change that about SPM, it kinda makes the whole thing feel like a bizarre fever dream. But i want it to stay unique to that game).

But yeah, the X-Nauts still felt like a Mario take on a space, futuristic-themed villain Organization. Hooktail and her brothers felt like a Mario take on a classic dragon archetype. It’s really only the Shadow Queen that’s like “woah, getting a bit serious JRPG here” vibes, but it works as she’s the final boss of the game.

 

[Dragoncaine]

Hold up, was this confirmed?

If true, Chapter 4 immediately becomes 60% more tolerable with its backtracking lol

 

[Jersh]

And it’s a GOOD thing to put Mario in settings other than the mushroom kingdom, and Nintendo is starting to take note of that again going by Odyssey and Wonder.

I don't think they ever stopped. We haven't had a 3D Mario set mainly in the Mushroom Kingdom since 3D Land (though yes, 3D World's Sprixie Kingdom ain't that different), and before that 64. I just think there's something... cozy, for lack of a better term (it really is what fits best, @WestEgg) about Paper Mario's RPG-like take on the Mushroom Kingdom that I wouldn't mind seeing revisited again at some point, though on the other hand I wouldn't really mind if Paper Mario's version just stays as the sort of definitive version of it.

I also do like how TTYD does a decent job at selling Rougueport and the surrounding areas as a place that would feasibly exist not far from the Mushroom Kingdom. My only real problem with it is how disjointed it can feel. Four of TTYD's local chapter areas are reached via pipe in the sewers; PM64 only does this once (and, noteably, one magic door). For me, that had a substantial impact on how connected the world feels. Petal Meadows, Boggly Woods, Twilight Town, and Fahr Outpost may as well be in their own universes - which frankly kinda works for Twilight Town, but the rest I feel would be better served by a stronger connection to Rougueport.

 

[Stilt Village]

I also do like how TTYD does a decent job at selling Rougueport and the surrounding areas as a place that would feasibly exist not far from the Mushroom Kingdom. My only real problem with it is how disjointed it can feel. Four of TTYD's local chapter areas are reached via pipe in the sewers; PM64 only does this once (and, noteably, one magic door). For me, that had a substantial impact on how connected the world feels. Petal Meadows, Boggly Woods, Twilight Town, and Fahr Outpost may as well be in their own universes - which frankly kinda works for Twilight Town, but the rest I feel would be better served by a stronger connection to Rougueport.

Growing up I always took TTYD as sort of a globe-trotting adventure story. Like Indiana Jones or something. You travel to far off places by ship, by train, and by blimp. I really liked that aspect of it, though I agree the sewer pipes are kind of a cop-out. There's no context for those places because you didn't journey to them. It works best for Boggly Woods and Twilight Town because they feel more alien than the other locations, but Petal Meadows is just... sort of orphaned.

 

[Decoyman]

Paper Mario: Mushroom Kingdom
The Thousand-Year Door: Rogueport
Super Paper Mario: Flipside (and adjacent kingdoms)
Sticker Star: Mushroom Kingdom
Color Splash: Prism Island
The Origami King: Mushroom Kingdom

Superstar Saga: Beanbean Kingdom
Partners In Time: Mushroom Kingdom (across different points of history)
Bowser's Inside Story: Mushroom Kingdom (and inside Bowser)
Dream Team: Pi'illo Island
Paper Jam: Mushroom Kingdom

I don't really get the sense that Nintendo ever stopped leaving the Mushroom Kingdom behind in their spinoff games. As recently as Color Splash they still set games outside of the greater area, and only one 3D Mario game ever took place within it. Even so, locales vary in uniformity and uniqueness.

Just say you want to see more games with non-standard area tropes, the only thing TTYD does a little more overtly is that it only has three locations that we see recycled a lot in the series (grasslands, tropical island, and arctic).

 

[AstroOhHey]

While I think the backtracking complaints with TTYD are a bit overstated, I think adding back in PM64's spin or a dedicated run button would be a good QOL addition to deal with those complaints regardless.

 

[Phendrift]

I don't think they ever stopped. We haven't had a 3D Mario set mainly in the Mushroom Kingdom since 3D Land (though yes, 3D World's Sprixie Kingdom ain't that different), and before that 64. I just think there's something... cozy, for lack of a better term (it really is what fits best, @WestEgg) about Paper Mario's RPG-like take on the Mushroom Kingdom that I wouldn't mind seeing revisited again at some point, though on the other hand I wouldn't really mind if Paper Mario's version just stays as the sort of definitive version of it.

I also do like how TTYD does a decent job at selling Rougueport and the surrounding areas as a place that would feasibly exist not far from the Mushroom Kingdom. My only real problem with it is how disjointed it can feel. Four of TTYD's local chapter areas are reached via pipe in the sewers; PM64 only does this once (and, noteably, one magic door). For me, that had a substantial impact on how connected the world feels. Petal Meadows, Boggly Woods, Twilight Town, and Fahr Outpost may as well be in their own universes - which frankly kinda works for Twilight Town, but the rest I feel would be better served by a stronger connection to Rougueport.

I definitely agree about the pipes in Rogueport being a cop out, PM64 had way more natural area transitions.

Honestly when I think about it, on kind of a similar note, PM64 feels like a much more sprawling game in general. I don’t think TTYD even has an area that comes close to Dry Dry Desert. TTYD definitely does a lot with so little actual size (Glitzville being the biggest example).

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but I can’t really think of a sequel on a more powerful console that took the same approach.

 

[Stilt Village]

I definitely agree about the pipes in Rogueport being a cop out, PM64 had way more natural area transitions.

Honestly when I think about it, on kind of a similar note, PM64 feels like a much more sprawling game in general. I don’t think TTYD even has an area that comes close to Dry Dry Desert. TTYD definitely does a lot with so little actual size (Glitzville being the biggest example).

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but I can’t really think of a sequel on a more powerful console that took the same approach.

It's not more powerful by much, but technically Skyward Sword? Scaled back from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess in world size, dungeon count, enemy variety, inventory size...

 

[Jersh]

I definitely agree about the pipes in Rogueport being a cop out, PM64 had way more natural area transitions.

Honestly when I think about it, on kind of a similar note, PM64 feels like a much more sprawling game in general. I don’t think TTYD even has an area that comes close to Dry Dry Desert. TTYD definitely does a lot with so little actual size (Glitzville being the biggest example).

It’s not necessarily a bad thing, but I can’t really think of a sequel on a more powerful console that took the same approach.

I've gone back and forth on making a thread comparing PM64 to TTYD for quite a while now since I feel the latter's reputation as a straight upgrade isn't really fair to the former (almost did it after a playthrough on NSO, might get to it after TTYD comes out), and level design is a decent chunk of why. 64 is far more varied in ideas and structure when it comes to traversal areas between towns and... dungeons, for lack of a better term. Everywhere in TTYD is just a straight line - Petal Meadows, Boggly Woods, Twilight Trail, Keelhaul Key - which is just not a good idea with how every single area also has you backtrack (often more than once).

Even though I prefer PM64, I feel TTYD is at its strongest in chapters 3 and 6, when it diverges the most from the formula established in the original. It's telling for me that my favorite parts of the game are the ones that don't actually have traditional Paper Mario 'levels', or whatever they should be called. They just weren't that well done this time around imo.

It's not more powerful by much, but technically Skyward Sword? Scaled back from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess in world size, dungeon count, enemy variety, inventory size...

SS does top TWW in dungeon count, and honestly, I'd be curious to see how total land mass compares. But yeah - they took a denser, more vertical approach to level design, and the combat philosophy demanded more care put into the enemy design, which resulted in less vast areas and enemy variety.

 

[Stilt Village]

SS does top TWW in dungeon count, and honestly, I'd be curious to see how total land mass compares. But yeah - they took a denser, more vertical approach to level design, and the combat philosophy demanded more care put into the enemy design, which resulted in less vast areas and enemy variety.

Wind Waker has Dragon Roost Caverns, Forbidden Woods, Tower of the Gods, Forsaken Fortress, Earth Temple, Wind Temple, and Ganon's Tower. Skyward Sword has Skyview Temple, Earth Temple, Lanayru Mining Facility, Ancient Cistern, Sandship, Fire Sanctuary, and technically Sky Keep. That's even at worst, though I personally don't consider Sky Keep to be a dungeon in any meaningful sense with only 8 rooms and no map, compass, boss, item, heart container... Not sure what separates it from Pirate Stronghold or something.

Skyward Sword would win in total land mass no question though, Wind Waker islands are tiny.