StarTopic Nintendo Switch Online + Expansion Pack |ST| New 2024 Poll Up

[Reinhard Schneider]

Invalidates the whole thing?

The MVG video showcases a lot of issues too. Input lag, horrible fog rendering, very poor online implementation (even with ethernet and fiber!!).

Not sure why this is the hill you're trying to die on...

sigh I'm not trying to die in any hill?

I don't trust trust videos with exaggerated or downright fake content. I'm not denying the emulator has some issues, i'm dismissing a faker and expressing my qualms with MVG, who in public defended kotaku's pro piracy article.

Relax, i'm not trying to argue, it's not with you who i have a beef with, it's with liars, piracy enablers and hyperbolic posters.

 

[VHS]

They want millions of subscribers, they're going to listen to feedback and improve things over time.

Ehh... we already have to pay for NSO and online has not improved at all. Had to stop playing Splatoon 2 for instance just due to how many hackers were on that service it was absurd. Similarly the issues with Animal Crossings online still haven't even been acknowledged. Nintendo improves in a lot of ways but online they just don't seem to grasp, Smash bros being another key example.

 

[Beard]

Ehh... we already have to pay for NSO and online has not improved at all. Had to stop playing Splatoon 2 for instance just due to how many hackers were on that service it was absurd. Similarly the issues with Animal Crossings online still haven't even been acknowledged. Nintendo improves in a lot of ways but online they just don't seem to grasp, Smash bros being another key example.

Yeeeeah....online specifically they still have a really long way to go.

 

[Intoxicate]

They have to enable button remapping in the app. Preferable per game. It’s annoying to do it in the system settings.

The other topics I don’t get. Especially when people state “I don’t want to pay 50$ for that). N64 emulation is only a small porting of the 50$ package. It’s like complaining about the navigation system in a sports car and yelling “I don’t want to pay 100.000$ for that”

 

[Reinhard Schneider]

The other topics I don’t get. Especially when people state “I don’t want to pay 50$ for that). N64 emulation is only a small porting of the 50$ package

1000 times this

The whole package includes NES, SNES, N64 and Mega Drive games, along with online play and cloud save functionality, and from November 5th onwards the Animal Crossing DLC too.

It's okay if you're only interested on the N64 emulator, but don't dismiss the whole value

 

[Clix]

So why do we want the fog back? I'm confused about all this talk about fog lmao

Because in a very select few games, the fog added atmosphere and hid the era 3D games breaking at the seams, especially with limited draw distance. Like OoT.

Now smaller sandbox games like Mario 64 or more abstract games like Star Fox, I rather have no fog.

 

[Josh5890]

All I have to say is, when DK64 is announced, get ready for this site's game challenge...

I 101% this game earlier this year. Don't know if I have the stomach to do it again.

 

[GJ]

So why do we want the fog back? I'm confused about all this talk about fog lmao

Fog was used to hide stuff in the distance that wasn’t loaded in properly. Because some games had to use it, some games started to get designed around it. So for example when you look at the now infamous room in the Water Temple, that room has a very hazy, atmospheric look to it. The fog also hides the horizon of the water/end of the room pretty well. While in the Switch-version there isn’t nearly as much fog as on the N64, so the room just looks flat, the water looks too blue and you can clearly see where the room ends. It ruins the aesthetics of the room. The way it was designed.

Obviously this room is just one example of how removing/reducing the fog messes with the visual design, but there are many more. There are also some counter points to why the removal is good, since the draw distance on Hyrule Field is now larger and on Choco Mountain in Mario Kart 64 you can see further ahead which is nice if you’re not too familiar with the map.

 

[Jersh]

Had to stop playing Splatoon 2 for instance just due to how many hackers were on that service it was absurd.

Huh

Hackers in Splatoon 2 are pretty rare, there's a lot of cheat detection in that game

 

[Mandos]

All I have to say is, when DK64 is announced, get ready for this site's game challenge...

Online Kong shooting it is! I’ll take everyone down with Chunky!

 

[Dopply]

I 101% this game earlier this year. Don't know if I have the stomach to do it again.

Like I mentioned in the game challenge R&D thread, the game has been a running joke for me for years (I do genuinely like it). The last big game event I ran for it on a previous site, I made physical golden bananas with stickers and shipped them to those who cleared the 101% challenge (in addition to a badge, of course).

I still have some old bananas lying around:

Spoiler: Golden Bananas

I expect to be sending many, many more bananas this time, because it's definitely happening again. ; )

 

[VHS]

Yeeeeah....online specifically they still have a really long way to go.

I was hoping with the paid service it would improve a lot but it... just hasn't. I really don't know what we are paying for.

Huh

Hackers in Splatoon 2 are pretty rare, there's a lot of cheat detection in that game

ran into way too many in my experience, a quick google shows they are still out there in 2021 so I am not interested. Seriously ruined the game for me and my friend group, hoping splatoon 3 is more proactive.

 

[Hocot8]

Because in a very select few games, the fog added atmosphere and hid the era 3D games breaking at the seams, especially with limited draw distance. Like OoT.

Now smaller sandbox games like Mario 64 or more abstract games like Star Fox, I rather have no fog.

Fog was used to hide stuff in the distance that wasn’t loaded in properly. Because some games had to use it, some games started to get designed around it. So for example when you look at the now infamous room in the Water Temple, that room has a very hazy, atmospheric look to it. The fog also hides the horizon of the water/end of the room pretty well. While in the Switch-version there isn’t nearly as much fog as on the N64, so the room just looks flat, the water looks too blue and you can clearly see where the room ends. It ruins the aesthetics of the room. The way it was designed.

Obviously this room is just one example of how removing/reducing the fog messes with the visual design, but there are many more. There are also some counter points to why the removal is good, since the draw distance on Hyrule Field is now larger and on Choco Mountain in Mario Kart 64 you can see further ahead which is nice if you’re not too familiar with the map.

Got it. Now I understand. It's not a one size fits all situation. Thanks for the answers.

 

[Dopply]

@Josh5890 Just a suggestion but do you think this should be a general NSO Expansion Pack StarTopic? Considering how the conversation has shifted.

 

[Kingpin Rogers]

All of the crashes? Should watch the video before saying that imo

I just took a look at the video, are there any other crashes outside of that one?
From what I saw in that video it was a crash that also crashes on original hardware, a bunch of gameplay of people playing online and it being unstable and then some fog and save stuff. Imo half of that video is nonsense because that crash is irrelevant for every casual player of oot and the online stuff can't be judged because we don't have any info on what everyone's connection is like.
This isn't me defending the service because it's absolutely not good enough for the price but short videos like that which are just clips with no real context don't do anything but potentially misinform. Like people are going to go away thinking OOT has actual crashing problems when it just doesn't.

 

[VHS]

I just took a look at the video, are there any other crashes outside of that one?
From what I saw in that video it was a crash that also crashes on original hardware, a bunch of gameplay of people playing online and it being unstable and then some fog and save stuff. Imo half of that video is nonsense because that crash is irrelevant for every casual player of oot and the online stuff can't be judged because we don't have any info on what everyone's connection is like.
This isn't me defending the service because it's absolutely not good enough for the price but short videos like that which are just clips with no real context don't do anything but potentially misinform. Like people are going to go away thinking OOT has actual crashing problems when it just doesn't.

I meant glitches, not crashes, sorry.

 

[Josh5890]

@Josh5890 Just a suggestion but do you think this should be a general NSO Expansion Pack StarTopic? Considering how the conversation has shifted.

Good idea

 

[Jersh]

You know, I have to admit it.

When I first pulled out the slingshot yesterday I tried moving my controller to aim it.

 

[TurtleRock]

Invalidates the whole thing?

The MVG video showcases a lot of issues too. Input lag, horrible fog rendering, very poor online implementation (even with ethernet and fiber!!).

Not sure why this is the hill you're trying to die on... this is completely unacceptable for a "premium service".

It's starting to become clear that there's roughly two frames of input lag between NSO and N64 hardware. That is nothing to freak out over. Outside of speedrunners most people wouldn't even tell the difference. Hell, most fighting games with rollback netcode will bake in 3 frames of input lag while playing online to give the netcode time to predict future frames for rollback and barely anyone notices.

I have to question the MVG video because he claims there is more input lag on NSO Mario 64 than 3D all stars yet other lag tests like the one from NintendoLife say they are exactly the same. From what I can tell there isn't a difference between the two so something is up with his testing method. He's right about the texture filtering though. Going with four point filtering was probably a choice to ensure solid performance and is honestly not something worth getting caught up on because barely anyone will notice.

You're absolutely right about the fog rendering. I hope they do fix that.

As for the online that's what you're gonna get with lock-step delay based netcode. And getting N64 games to work with rollback netcode would take an immense amount of work. Compound delay based netcode with 3 other possible players and if even one connection sucks it hurts everyone. Honestly the online connection stuff is always going to be inconsistent and the best thing you can do is just play with people you know have a solid connection. There's also the fact most people tend to overestimate how good their connection is or claim their wifi is solid which is a nonsense claim.

As for that original video showing off issues most of the stuff on there is bunk and shown in bad faith. Literally all the footage of the online stuff is with people with zero bar or one bar connection. The fog issues have been documented to death already. The input lag stuff has been discussed already. The OoT crash is literally a bug in the original game (and the fact that the game doesn't immediately crash is actually an improvement).

Could the emulation quality be better, sure. The most glaring issue is the fog rendering issue which should be fixable in theory. But the online stuff and the input lag is being blown way out of proportion. And anyone claiming that the WiiU had better input lag is speaking complete nonsense as well. We know for certain games had 4 frames of delay minimum and you dealt with an additional 2-4 while playing on the gamepad. NSO seems to have 2 frame delay across the board.

 

[VHS]

And getting N64 games to work with rollback netcode would take an immense amount of work.

If this was a one time purchase, $10 per game or whatever like the eShop I would agree. But this is an ongoing service, $30 per year per user. It feels wholly inappropriate imo to push this as a big feature "play with your friends online like the classic old days", and have such lackluster online. Maybe my hopes were too high but when I pay for something labeled a "premium service" I expect premium performance and this just... isn't. The input lag seems bad as well but I'll wait for something from DF before getting into the weeds.

 

[Clix]

While there are cases where we have bad netcode, I always tell people to check their connection. Not a lot of people properly do outside of their router or modem app on their PC or phone showing very good to excellent signal strength.

Now Smash, for example, definetly needs better netcode for the type of game it is and rollback is usually better than delay based for fighting games. So that will cause some issues for sure. But back to Smash Ultimate again, why is it me and three buddies from my discord gorup do online matches without a hitch 90 percent of the time... and I play over WiFi because my modem cannot reach my consoles and I play handheld mostly. Now when I play random matchmaking in Smash? More than half the time it is a complete shit show. Just a literal slideshow.

My daughter lives in Maine with her mother. We play Mario Maker online no issue, I also set up her router and configurations up in Maine.

Always check your settings and advance settings even if the router/modem app says "very good connection".

 

[Reinhard Schneider]

The input lag seems bad as well

It isn't

You don't release something like Mario Tennis or Sin and Punishment with bad input lag, you just don't.

This is starting to get absurd, i can give you the online because of p2p connection, but even then i have already tested it with a few friends and it runs almost flawlessly (one of them had a slow connection atm)

You're making a whole mountain range out of a few molehills.

 

[Robin64]

Edit: I didn't realise this was answered lots already, sorry, I was a page back!

 

[TurtleRock]

If this was a one time purchase, $10 per game or whatever like the eShop I would agree. But this is an ongoing service, $30 per year per user. It feels wholly inappropriate imo to push this as a big feature "play with your friends online like the classic old days", and have such lackluster online. Maybe my hopes were too high but when I pay for something labeled a "premium service" I expect premium performance and this just... isn't. The input lag seems bad as well but I'll wait for something from DF before getting into the weeds.

If they were $10 per game it would cost $70 to get everything out now. $50 if you only got the multiplayer stuff. At the end of the day it's actually a better bargain to grab NSO. My point is people are acting like this is a lot of money to throw down for a service when it's really not. For the price I'm getting what I expected. And to be totally honest these games probably are worth $10 a pop. But I don't even care about the "free games."

I do agree that I wish Nintendo improved their actual online service IE better friend list, messaging and communication features. That's what I would gladly pay for. At some point people started caring more about roms than actual online service. The service is never going to improve because people care more about nostalgia.

 

[Jersh]

It's starting to become clear that there's roughly two frames of input lag between NSO and N64 hardware.

Please don't measure this in frames, it'll only add to confusion. I still need to do some more tests, but I've seen 50 ms so far which is 3 frames at 60fps but just 1 at 20fps.

I have to question the MVG video because he claims there is more input lag on NSO Mario 64 than 3D all stars yet other lag tests like the one from NintendoLife say they are exactly the same. From what I can tell there isn't a difference between the two so something is up with his testing method.

I didn't test this that thoroughly but I saw an increase of 16.67ms, or half a frame (30fps) over 3D All-Stars.

 

[VHS]

At some point people started caring more about roms than actual online service. The service is never going to improve because people care more about nostalgia.

Definitely seems like it, unfortunately. I've stopped expecting anything resembling competent online from Nintendo though, single player games only at this point and be surprised if something does run decent like MK8

 

[Indyblue]

Can the N64 controllers turn on the system?

 

[TurtleRock]

Please don't measure this in frames, it'll only add to confusion. I still need to do some more tests, but I've seen 50 ms so far which is 3 frames at 60fps but just 1 at 20fps.

I didn't test this that thoroughly but I saw an increase of 16.67ms, or half a frame (30fps) over 3D All-Stars.

Ok good deal. Well there aren't that many 60 fps n64 games that I can think of so honestly this still reaffirms my opinion that it's not that bad.

 

[Kingpin Rogers]

Can the N64 controllers turn on the system?

Yes.

 

[Mandos]

Shrug well at least on the plus side Nintendo’s been good about updating and keeping feature parity on the NSO classic systems so I’m not too worried

I’m just curious to see the first game update, shouldn’t have too long to wait tho since December is assured and I’m not ruling out November either

 

[Intoxicate]

Whenever I read fog and think of Nintendo 64 I’m reminded on Turok. That game cost a fortune back then (almost 2x compared to e.g. Mario 64) and I hated the “atmosphere”, i.e. the fog mess I saw on my television. Coming from colorful SNES games this was the complete opposite of what I had expected from 3D or the “future” of gaming.

 

[Jersh]

Ok good deal. Well there aren't that many 60 fps n64 games that I can think of so honestly this still reaffirms my opinion that it's not that bad.

Somewhat lost I think in my several posts on this is that I agree; it isn't bad. The SNES app's 33ms is considered pretty damn good, especially on a lightweight like the Switch; the N64 being at 50ms should've been about the expectation, maybe a hair over. I think we're just seeing that 50ms being added to base input delay that's indeed higher than everyone remembered and possibly being complicated by modern TVs.

As for 60fps games, the only ones I'm aware of are F-Zero X, Yoshi's Story, and Super Smash Bros. Kirby 64 might be as well, but I've heard that's only for cutscenes which is moot for this discussion.

That said, the 50ms will be felt the most on games that have a high base delay, and that's going to tend to be the lower framerate games. The 60fps games will technically have more frames of delay, but they should still feel more responsive overall. It's the OoT's that you gotta watch out for.

 

[Jersh]

I was hoping with the paid service it would improve a lot but it... just hasn't. I really don't know what we are paying for.

Word through the grapevine is that more widespread use of Nintendo's overhauled network libraries from earlier this year - including the use of relay servers - is just around the corner. I think Super Mario Party is the only Nintendo game to use relay servers right now, but that game had a surprisingly positive online experience (at least in terms of responsiveness/smoothness, that is) if you want an idea of how much they can help.

Nintendo likely won't go back and patch older games to use them, but games in active development could see improvements.

 

[dingbat]

As for 60fps games, the only ones I'm aware of are F-Zero X, Yoshi's Story, and Super Smash Bros. Kirby 64 might be as well, but I've heard that's only for cutscenes which is moot for this discussion.

I think Ridge Racer 64 does as well.

 

[Dopply]

Good idea

Glad to see it; can you make sure to edit the prefix to StarTopic too? Not a huge deal or anything lol

 

[Hocot8]

I haven't noticed much input delay in the games I've played; Mario Tennis, Mario Kart, SM 64 and Yoshi's Story. I have to play more of SM 64 but whatever delay there is didn't seem to impact my gameplay. I was still able to play like I usually do whenever I go back to play the game lol.

 

[Mandos]

Hm wonder if we’ll get ridge racer 64

 

[Pineapple Pizza]

Is there any way to close the N64 NSO app with the N64 controller...? It has no X button... I rarely leave games on standby unless I'm definitely returning to then later that day.

 

[Clix]

Somewhat lost I think in my several posts on this is that I agree; it isn't bad. The SNES app's 33ms is considered pretty damn good, especially on a lightweight like the Switch; the N64 being at 50ms should've been about the expectation, maybe a hair over. I think we're just seeing that 50ms being added to base input delay that's indeed higher than everyone remembered and possibly being complicated by modern TVs.

As for 60fps games, the only ones I'm aware of are F-Zero X, Yoshi's Story, and Super Smash Bros. Kirby 64 might be as well, but I've heard that's only for cutscenes which is moot for this discussion.

That said, the 50ms will be felt the most on games that have a high base delay, and that's going to tend to be the lower framerate games. The 60fps games will technically have more frames of delay, but they should still feel more responsive overall. It's the OoT's that you gotta watch out for.

I cannot remember, but were Wave Race, Excitebike, and Pilot Wings 60fps?

 

[Clix]

Is there any way to close the N64 NSO app with the N64 controller...? It has no X button... I rarely leave games on standby unless I'm definitely returning to then later that day.

Try pressing R and ZR at the same time. That is how it is on the SNES controller. And ZL and L should be capture

 

[DrDave]

I cannot remember, but were Wave Race, Excitebike, and Pilot Wings 60fps?

Not even close. Wave Race was 20 locked, Excitebike 20-30? I’m not sure and Pilotwings unlocked but mostly 20-30.

 

[A. G. Cook]

Invalidates the whole thing?

The MVG video showcases a lot of issues too. Input lag, horrible fog rendering, very poor online implementation (even with ethernet and fiber!!).

Not sure why this is the hill you're trying to die on... this is completely unacceptable for a "premium service".

I’m in the camp that there are problems with rendering, but input lag varies wildly by your TV and online varies by your connection. All of this feels very over blown and clearly this issue has become an easy way to get hits and views. Not falling into the negative echo chamber personally.

 

[Kano]

Invalidates the whole thing?

The MVG video showcases a lot of issues too. Input lag, horrible fog rendering, very poor online implementation (even with ethernet and fiber!!).

Not sure why this is the hill you're trying to die on... this is completely unacceptable for a "premium service".

Again, online is 100% dependent on your own connection. I have no issues when playing with my friends living in the same continent as long as we all have good connections.

And yeah, people are making a mountain out of minor issues. The emulators are both just fine. They work well.

I cannot remember, but were Wave Race, Excitebike, and Pilot Wings 60fps?

Very few N64 games were 60fps. Anything 3D was 30 at best.
F-Zero X was one exception. Ran at 60. The original Smash Bros too.

 

[MondoMega]

Completely forgot about Harvest Moon 64, that's definitely coming back! And I'll admit I tried to be a tad more favorable to 3rd Party games here, since both Wii and Wii U VCs were so lacking of options.

I think there has to be plenty of third-party games in there; I don't think you can even fill all of those ID gaps with just first-party games. The wide gap between Mario Tennis and Sin & Punishment is too large, and the gap between Win Back and Yoshi's Story has no first-party options at all!

Always the option for more out of alphabetical order after OoT too, they aren't going to limit themselves to that initial batch if the opportunity for certain games comes up later.

How would harvest moon 64 work? What would it be called?

Going by the Wii U Virtual Console rerelease, it can still be called Harvest Moon 64 outside of Japan. Natsume published that version too; while Marvelous published the Japanese version. If they were willing to work things out in 2017, I think they could work things out now.

 

[Chie]

Try pressing R and ZR at the same time. That is how it is on the SNES controller. And ZL and L should be capture

For real, how long has this been a thing?. Lack of home and capture was my only issue with the SNES controller.

 

[Phantoon]

I'm playing OoT with the N64 controller. There's definitely lag I can notice when playing the Ocarina but the game itself seems OK. The visual inaccuracies are annoying, but I'll live with it. The Mega Drive selection is just incredible for an initial selection. Shining Force, Streets of Rage 2, Contra, Castlevania, Phantasy Star 4 and Gunstar Heroes, oh my.

The N64 controller feels great. No deadzone, minuscule motions give immediate results. N64 is not a console that plays well with other controllers so I'm glad I got this.

 

[Tamantayoshi]

More people need to realize the family plan exists haha, I'm paying 10$ total for all of this.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

For real, how long has this been a thing?. Lack of home and capture was my only issue with the SNES controller.

Only works within the SNES app and you actually just need to press one button, either SL or SR.

 

[Mandos]

More people need to realize the family plan exists haha, I'm paying 10$ total for all of this.

Same

 

[bloopland33]

Word through the grapevine is that more widespread use of Nintendo's overhauled network libraries from earlier this year - including the use of relay servers - is just around the corner.

Where's that from? That's great to hear about Super MP too, because I'm really hoping the online minigame experience with four people on MP Superstars is good!