- Pronouns
- He/Him
There’s about 1:40m more video after that
The mere fact that the video opens with a known bug of the game already discredits the whole thing
There’s about 1:40m more video after that
The mere fact that the video opens with a known bug of the game already discredits the whole thing
I mean, not really. They then go to show issues with the online, texture scaling problems and emulation inaccuracies. That's all relevant.
I mean, not really. Discrediting the other issues shown because of that is about as meaningful as including the bug itself as a demonstration of the issues. They then go to show problems with the online, texture scaling problems and emulation inaccuracies. That's all relevant.
The internet was invented for people to be upset about things that aren't true.They show this:
Which is someone with ZERO bars of connection quality, and a warning at the bottom of the screen, having a rough time with online. Shocking, a game that uses online systems doesn't perform well when person is barely connected.
Meanwhile I had full bars playing with my friends last night and we didn't have a single stutter in the several hours we played.
Online with a clear banner of shitty internet and no Wi-Fi signal?
And how is this a game problem?People will have issues because lots will be playing over peer to peer connections using Wifi, yeah.
And how is this a game problem?
This is a friend of mine:
So?
Eh, you can't play online with shitty internet, it's not a news nor every game problem, l'ld say. If net code is bad, is bad for everyoneThat's great but it won't be everyone's experience. Neither will that other video, to be fair.
I mean, not really. They then go to show problems with the online, texture scaling problems and emulation inaccuracies. That's all relevant.
Since I seem to be the resident guy for this now (maybe I really should mod one of my 64 controllers with an LED to show button presses lol), it looks likely to me that about 75% of the input delay is from the game itself - assuming (and this admittedly is a rather large assumption) that Majora's Mask has comparable delay to Ocarina of Time; I'm measuring about 140-150ms of delay on Majora's Mask (I unfortunately don't own an Ocarina of Time cartridge). 200ms as he claims (I'll verify that myself later) is pretty bad - but I think it's at a weird point where he doesn't really notice the 150ms delay because he's so used to it (you can certainly notice that if you're looking for it), but push it up to 200ms and you notice it all at once, if that makes sense.The input lag and controls "feeling different" is a bit nebulous and hard to test
A compilation of some of the issues
From what I’ve seen it looks like OoT has 2 frames of delay. Now this is 2 frames at 20 FPS which is not the same as 2 frames at 30 or 60 FPS. That being said 2 frames of lag on an emulator is pretty good response time it’s just that OoT is a “slower” game so you feel more delay.Since I seem to be the resident guy for this now (maybe I really should mod one of my 64 controllers with an LED to show button presses lol), it looks likely to me that about 75% of the input delay is from the game itself - assuming (and this admittedly is a rather large assumption) that Majora's Mask has comparable delay to Ocarina of Time; I'm measuring about 140-150ms of delay on Majora's Mask (I unfortunately don't own an Ocarina of Time cartridge). 200ms as he claims (I'll verify that myself later) is pretty bad - but I think it's at a weird point where he doesn't really notice the 150ms delay because he's so used to it (you can certainly notice that if you're looking for it), but push it up to 200ms and you notice it all at once, if that makes sense.
I think part of the issue here is also people playing these games on modern TVs for the first time; if you're lucky, your set only adds 15ms or so of delay. Many people are playing on displays adding 30ms or more. I imagine quite a few people who played the game on Wii VC were still using a CRT, and Wii U wasn't all that popular.
Fwiw 50ms of added delay (from the emulator + Switch screen combined, since I don't have a way of measuring the latter) is consistent with what I measured from Yoshi's Story. I believe I have a friend with OoT; maybe I'll convince him to lend it to me.
(As an aside - if my measurement is accurate, I'm amused by the shot he fired at Smash Ultimate; that "only" has 100ms of delay. Not only was his comparison way off, it's lower than the 64 Zeldas on OG hardware.)
Zelda speedrunner ZFG (the one who debunked that wrong post claiming that "the water always looked bad in the Japanese version" which is completely untrue) made a video analyzing the differences of the switch version. The input lag and controls "feeling different" is a bit nebulous and hard to test, so I'm not sure what should be done there other than to try and fix input lag which seems to be specifically affecting OOT more than others. The fog section has a lot of comparison screenshots though, and this is the #1 thing I hope they fix if they can. I timestamped that section here.
I'd also like to say that I had a full lobby of 4 playing N64 online last night with essentially 0 issues! We are all based in the US though to be clear, but I do think that this is overblown and should work well for those in the same region with good connections. Not to say more improvements couldn't be made on that front as well though.
Delay added by an emulator is generally consistent in terms of milliseconds, not frames; delay added to a 20 FPS game shouldn't be any different from one running at 60 FPS. The difference comes from each game's inherit delay.From what I’ve seen it looks like OoT has 2 frames of delay. Now this is 2 frames at 20 FPS which is not the same as 2 frames at 30 or 60 FPS. That being said 2 frames of lag on an emulator is pretty good response time it’s just that OoT is a “slower” game so you feel more delay.
Sorry I meant that there is a 2 frame difference between OoT on an N64 using a CRT monitor and NSO. Not that there were only 2 frames of delay in OoT period. If that makes sense. 1 frame at 20 fps is about 40-50 milliseconds. Which is consistent with your results give or take a couple of milliseconds.Delay added by an emulator is generally consistent in terms of milliseconds, not frames; delay added to a 20 FPS game shouldn't be any different from one running at 60 FPS. The difference comes from each game's inherit delay.
Which brings to my next point - two total frames of delay for an emulated 60 FPS game is nigh impossible without run-ahead, because the games themselves tend to have at least that much. Super Mario World on a SNES displaying to a CRT is known to average 3.3 frames of latency in a best-case scenario (come to think of it, I should calibrate my CRT results against this). Super Metroid does about 2 frames. Emulator + display lag is only ever going to add to this without advanced techniques.
Ah, gotcha. I'd like to record my own results for OoT, given I no nothing about the test the video used. I'd also like to compare my CRT running SMW to documented results online, since that game is somewhat easy to find good data on.Sorry I meant that there is a 2 frame difference between OoT on an N64 using a CRT monitor and NSO. Not that there were only 2 frames of delay in OoT period. If that makes sense. 1 frame at 20 fps is about 40-50 milliseconds. Which is consistent with your results give or take a couple of milliseconds.
You measure MM at 140-150 MS and that's coming from the game itself in the best conditions. The video claims 200-220 milliseconds of delay for NSO OoT. That roughly averages out to a 2 frame difference at 20 fps.
MVG has a video about N64's emulation. He hopes Nintendo does some patches soon.
MVG has a video about N64's emulation. He hopes Nintendo does some patches soon.
That is awesome to hear, thank you!My friend and I played loads last night, he's about 50 miles away and our connection was always full bars. We began to forget we weren't even sitting next to each other after the initial slightly input latency was gotten used to. It's very good with a good connection.
-Mario Tennis and Golf with all unlocked charactersWhat SP versions do you expect we'll see on N64 online? My hope is we see a Mario Tennis with everything unlocked to help get around the transfer pack issue.
Completely forgot about Harvest Moon 64, that's definitely coming back! And I'll admit I tried to be a tad more favorable to 3rd Party games here, since both Wii and Wii U VCs were so lacking of options.I think those guesses are pretty good! I do think that 1080, Excitebike 64 and Harvest Moon 64 will return from Wii U VC though, so i'd make a few changes to fit those in.
Yeah, in the last I didn’t care about button mapping because for NES you had two buttons and then for SNES of course, it was 1 to 1.
But the N64 controller is such an oddity, that it really needs it. It’s great having the C stick on the analog stick, but for Sin and Punishment, both analog sticks control the reticle. I’d rather have the dpad mapped to the left stick.
It’s the placement of the dpad on Switch that gets me. I much prefer the Wii U with both sticks at the bottom lolI was so confused reading about people struggling with S&P's controls because I just assumed that everyone would use the right analogue stick to aim and the d-pad for movement. Now I see why the standard control scheme might be an issue.
I’m hoping Hybrid Heaven sneaks in myselfCompletely forgot about Harvest Moon 64, that's definitely coming back! And I'll admit I tried to be a tad more favorable to 3rd Party games here, since both Wii and Wii U VCs were so lacking of options.
It's very possible that they add more games out of alphabetical order following OoT. SNES games were initially added in an alphabetical batch and then they just threw them in whatever order (presumably when they got permission to use them).
Yes; there are still a lot of gaps left open for both, especially SNES.
NES carried over its game ID system from the FC/NES Mini, so it isn't 100% reliable for NSO as some of the IDs are likely for games that will never end up on the service. It's fun to see how many games they presumably considered for the mini console but didn't make the cut though!
SNES restarted its ID system for NSO and didn't carry over anything from the SFC/SNES Mini, so that's a lot more reliable in terms of games specifically tested for NSO.
I think those guesses are pretty good! I do think that 1080, Excitebike 64 and Harvest Moon 64 will return from Wii U VC though, so i'd make a few changes to fit those in.
Best they could do with MM is to not lose equipments and fairy during time loops-Mario Tennis and Golf with all unlocked characters
-Majora's Mask all masls unlocked
-Banjo Kazooie final stage with all music notes
-Donkey Kong 64 at 101% with one banana missing from each level and you get to figure out which one-Mario Tennis and Golf with all unlocked characters
-Majora's Mask all masls unlocked
-Banjo Kazooie final stage with all music notes
-Donkey Kong 64 at 101% with one banana missing from each level and you get to figure out which one
Depends upon what you mean by arcady, but I think the standout games that don't feel like that areIt seems like a lot of the Genesis games are very arcade-y, which in general I don’t get on well with. I don’t have the patience for them.
Star Fox 64 has noticeable heavy fog, is it still worse than the original version?The fog issue is universal across all games. People noticed it in Mario 64 on 3D All Stars but it was shrugged off because that game doesn’t have that many fog effects. Now it’s evident it’s an emulator issue affecting all games. I really hope they can fix it. I also hope it wasn’t an intentional choice because someone went “you know what turn the fog off because it won’t affect game performance and it’s clearer!”
Challenge accepted.-Donkey Kong 64 at 101% with one banana missing from each level and you get to figure out which one
While we're on it... bring Rakugakids internationally, Konami!I’m hoping Hybrid Heaven sneaks in myself
There is heavier fog in the original yes. You can really see the lack of fog playing multiplayer.Star Fox 64 has noticeable heavy fog, is it still worse than the original version?
All of the crashes? Should watch the video before saying that imoThat's a bug that happens in real hardware, dude
As i have already said, the mere fact that THAT crash is the first thing in the video invalidates the video itself.All of the crashes? Should watch the video before saying that imo
Invalidates the whole thing?As i have already said, the mere fact that THAT crash is the first thing in the video invalidates the video itself.
If the first crash showcased is a bug that already existed in the original, how much of the rest of the video is forced or fabricated?
All I have to say is, when DK64 is announced, get ready for this site's game challenge...Challenge accepted.