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Pre-Release Metroid Prime 4: Pre-Release Discussion Thread

I’m gonna do this in a separate post since it’s a very different point.

But in general expecting this game to be this or that is an effort in futility

There’s exploration is Bassicaly the extend of what we know, what’s changed and what’s unchanged is unknown.

We’ll have to wait and see
 
I agree with this (though I haven't played Prime 3 yet), but I'd like to say that with Prime 2 it's almost a technicality more than anything. Like there's less areas in the game, so that already takes away a lot of the amount of quality tracks. I would still say Prime 2 has a worse OST than Prime even taken on its own merit, given that tracks like Agon Wastes exist, but I'd say considering most of what you're hearing throughout the game is stuff like Temple Grounds, The Luminoth, Torvus Bog, the Water remix, Sanctuary Fortress, and the Main Menu theme and its fanstasic End Credits remix, it feels a little weird to say people are living off the highs of the soundtrack when on average the great tunes probably account for like 70-80% of your playtime. It's like the reverse Tropical Freeze! Not a lot of variety but tons of time to appreciate the great tracks.
What you're forgetting is the dark world, though. Probably not quite half the game, but you spend a lot of time in the dark world versions of each area, and none of them have memorable music. That plus Agon being essentially 1/3 of the main areas takes a toll, though I'd say it's probably worse towards the beginning when you haven't gotten to Torvus yet and towards the end when you're spending a lot more time in the dark world.

I'll also say that outside the Parasite Queen and the Ridley remix, I can't really think of a great boss battle theme from the first two games. I guess I kind of like the Vs. Dark Troopers?
There are a good amount of solid ones from both, but Parasite Queen is probably the best, yeah. Prime isn't known for its boss themes, but it has them.





Also, apropos of nothing, I think it's neat how big of a leap forward Prime was for Kenji Yamamoto as a composer, you don't often see that. He's always had an issue with being kind of static and straightforward, which is probably the biggest difference between his work and the Hirokazu Tanaka Metroid soundtrack he's imitating the style of. But in Prime he gets an extremely distinctive sound of his own which helps break him away from just copying what someone else established, and the leap in complexity when you put Magmoor next to Phendrana or Torvus Catacombs next to Torvus Bog is really obvious.

I feel like Hollow Knight might be a good example to look at re:Nonlinearity

Where there is still something of a sequence, but the sequence branches in different directions at a certain point; some upgrades are still prerequisites for others, but there are two or three parallel options for what the "next upgrade" is.

So it would be like, if once you have the Spider Ball in Prime 1, you can either go to the Tower Of Light to get the Wavebuster, or to the Chapel Of The Elders for the Ice Beam. But instead of the Wavebuster being a one-off detour, that would in turn be required to unlock another upgrade somehow, (let's just say you need it to give a more sustained charge to something that the normal Wave Beam can't, and behind that gate they added Seeker Missiles or something) so then it would be a choice between following that new sequence, or going for the Ice Beam. And then if you get Ice Beam, the choice is between the Gravity Suit or Seeker Missiles.

Either way, you're still following a sequence and making progress, and eventually you'll need to get them all anyway, but the order of progression isn't so strictly tied to one exact golden path.
So forgive me going off on a ramble for a bit, because I find this subject fascinating:

A decent number of Metroidvanias let you pick which item to get first or let you use either/or to progress, though how explicit that is really depends. Super Metroid and Zero Mission have a clear intended path, but you can depart from it by doing things out of order or skipping certain abilities (for instance you don't actually need the Grapple Beam or the High Jump Boots to finish Super). If you choose to ignore the directions of the Chozo Statues, then you can find that there are many different ways to go about finishing Zero Mission, though the complexity is somewhat lessened by how short and small it is. The choice is really limited to whether you fight Ridley or Kraid first, and what items you have when you do.

Hollow Knight takes more after Symphony of the Night, which opens up a lot of the world at once very quickly. The path to finishing SotN requires very few of the relics, and there's a lopsided balance where many of them open only a few rooms if they do anything important at all, and then Jewel of Open, Leap Stone, and Bat combine to open pretty much the whole map. A lot of older ones worked sort of like this I think, where the item progression wasn't the main thrust of the game and they were rather open, with most items being completely optional upgrades. The first Metroid was a lot like this, get a few key abilities and you can pretty much go wherever.

The big difference between Hollow Knight and SotN though is that you generally still need to acquire specific items in a specific order in SotN, so the map being so open is more or less a giant red herring. You need the Jewel of Open for the Leap Stone, the Leap Stone for the Mist, the Mist for the Bat, and so on. So despite the many ways you can go, there is only one right way. In Hollow Knight, you can get different abilities that open up different areas, or offer different means of reaching different areas, making progression itself unusually nonlinear. This does eventually break down into a more SotN-like arrangement towards the end if you aren't settling for the bad ending, which comes with the same problem that you need to find a few very specific items in a huge world. Games like Super Metroid ask you to do this regularly, but use a lot of tricks to make it relatively effortless. Two favorites are locking you into a specific section of the map or always putting the next item fairly close to the last one. Since Hollow Knight and SotN are so open though, you really do just have to look absolutely everywhere, which can become exhausting (moreso in the former because it's so damn big and much much harder).

Pseudoregalia is another similar game. After the introductory section, you're set loose and can go to a bunch of different places, and get a bunch of different abilities in pretty much whatever order you like. It's similar to Super Metroid in that most required upgrades are related to movement in some way, and if you're good enough you can often figure out a way of getting somewhere with what you have rather than the intended ability. This can make it quite unclear what "the way you were supposed to go" even is. Unlike Super Metroid, there is no one explicit intended path through the game, just intended item progression gates. It also runs into the issue of what happens when it closes up though. One of the most important upgrades requires you to interpret a cryptic message referring to the naming scheme of three key abilities, and know to come back to this tower if you don't have all of them yet and use them to enter it and get the upgrade and information on your main objective. Unfortunately, it's very easy to miss this, or do what I did and assume the cryptic message was referring to the main objective. It's not obvious that the tower can be entered at all purely through acrobatics, especially if you immediately peg it (correctly) as the game's Tourian equivalent that you'll need to return to at the end of the game.

It's worth noting though that even if you avoid the pitfall of eventually sending the player looking for a needle in a haystack, you do lose something from this open approach as well though. It can be hard to tell if you're actually making progress, and a lot of the satisfaction of growth and being able to solve another piece of the world's puzzle is muted compared to the pretty intense feedback loop of get ability -> use ability -> get ability that Metroid provides. Both Hollow Knight and SotN have far fewer new abilities than a Metroid game does, despite SotN being about the size of Super and Hollow Knight being way larger. It's probably prohibitively difficult to have this kind of structure with such a large number of abilities, since it will increase the complexity further and further for each additional item you add. Most of the abilities themselves are on the simpler side too, there's a reason you see wall jump, double jump, slide, etc. recur so often and usually make up most of a game's selection. Meanwhile Dread has so many different abilities and advanced techniques that it's like playing Celeste with a Zelda game on top of it.

But speaking of The Pitfall, I think it's actually really hard to totally avoid this unless the game never completely lets go and continues to just tell you where to go and give you no options for the whole duration. And the ways in which Metroidvanias attempt to control players are just as interesting to look at as the ways they give freedom, like how Metroid Dread is constantly and blatantly closing paths behind you and trying to funnel you in the direction it wants, even though it is very much still possible to get lost or even sequence break. But even Super Metroid eventually has to take off the training wheels and give you access to the whole map once you get the Power Bombs, or ask you to remember some very distant rooms to enter Lower Norfair and Tourian. It seems like an inherent hazard of being true to the spirit of the genre, you're going to have to compromise with some map markers like Hollow Knight did or something or else just let the process of "check every possible room across the whole map" play out.

The last notable example of open design I'm aware of is Rabi-Ribi, which is kind of different. It has a hidden Super Metroid wall jump available from the beginning along with various other tricks like Zero Mission-esque hidden paths explicitly for the purpose of letting you complete every part of the game in basically any order, and it's probably one of the largest Metroidvanias as well. Normally however, it opens up in "phases", where you are meant to go find and defeat a few specific bosses at a time. The game typically has a loosely suggested order to them, but if you don't mind a rougher experience or even just get lost, it's not too hard to break from these suggestions and do things differently. I think it often deals more explictly in soft locks rather than hard locks. Like, you don't actually need the Gravity Suit equivalent to explore the underwater area, but it will make it a lot easier. It does a ton of really interesting and original things for the genre including its takes on concepts like difficulty levels and new game+, which is all somewhat obscured by how it looks like a hentai game. The sequel/spiritual successor had a much larger emphasis on plot, and that proved to be mutually exclusive with this, so despite whatever other advancements it had, this stuff had to be confined to an alternate mode I believe. (I can't speak in as much detail on these games because I've never played them personally.)

I've been curious for years to see how exactly Prime 4 will be structured, because the possibilities are kind of fascinatingly endless. The first three games were in some ways built very similarly, but in others completely different. All of them are pretty aggressively linear and actively patch sequence breaking through updates to later editions, even Fusion didn't come off as strongly opposed to it as Prime does. They all have you tackle areas mostly one after another, with you beating the boss of one and moving on to the next, but with 2 or 3 sudden departures sprinkled in where you need to go across the map for one item and then come back to continue.

However, the first game is structured to heavily imitate Super Metroid, and that includes an interconnected world with one "crossroads" area that connects to everywhere else. The second game goes outright for a pretty explicit hub and spokes design. It's probably the most Zelda-like Metroid game for several reasons, not least of which is the two worlds gimmick. Corruption breaks its world up entirely into isolated sections that often aren't even on the same planet, which gives getting around a very different feel since your ship acts as a sort of "fast travel" or a universal elevator between unlocked landing points. You could say there was a trend between each entry to make travel more and more centralized, which I think was necessary to begin with due to the aforementioned "now go to the other side of the map" tendency and for one other reason: unlike 2D Metroid, the upgrades you get in Prime are mostly of really minimal help in backtracking through old rooms. There's no plowing through or flying over everything, or mowing down enemies with increased firepower. Backtracking is a lot more tedious in Prime, so it was in its best interest to make going between areas as streamlined as possible. There's also the key hunt, which is a major factor in all three games, but handled pretty differently in each one.

It's entirely possible with how much Retro Studios has changed over the years that most of these unifying quirks will no longer apply to Prime 4! I don't have a conclusion here. There are so many possibilities that I have no idea what structure I'd like to see. Something I do want is for them to double down on areas that feel like classic 3D Zelda dungeons, which was always my favorite part of Prime and which I think might demand a more linear game, but it's not like I can say for certain. One of the funnier thoughts I've had though is that I wonder if any of Tropical Freeze will bleed into this. Will they design areas with less random machines triggered by morph ball slot and more mechanics specific to the environment? Will movement and flow through rooms become a much bigger focus than before, even to the point of bringing the speedrunning aspect of the series originally excised from Prime back in? Will we get an obscure background cameo of Diddy Kong that takes four years to find?
 
Games that were super talked about around the time Prime 4 started development so Retro could have taken inspiration from some of these:

Doom 2016
Titanfall 2
These are the ones for me. I'm hoping they make combat more interesting and dynamic (rather than "lock on, strafe, spam the fire button") and I hope they have some really fun and solid movement (let Samus wall-run, dang it)
 
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On the cross gen debate:
I think we should look more at Twilight Princess than Breath of the Wild in terms of what to """expect""" from the MP4 performance if it ends up going the cross gen route.
Breath of the Wild wasn't just a Zelda game held back for the next generation - it was a whole shake up on the Zelda formula that basically made it something entirely different and was basically Nintendo's take on what's among the most popular genres out there, open world adventure games with RPG elements.
Not only that, but Breath of the Wild was THE launch title of the Switch. And no, 1-2 Switch isn't in any way comparable to Wii Sports nor was it ever meant to be. Breath of the Wild was the Switch's killer app. Twilight Princess WASN'T the Wii's killer app, Wii Sports was.
Metroid Prime 4 won't be the Switch's killer app. 3D Mario will be.
They won't make 3D Mario a pack in, and they won't release Metroid Prime 4 the same day as a 3D Mario game, so it'll probably be a late spring or summer release. While people say that early adopters of a platform are more likely to buy games they usually wouldn't, we can't really make a case for that since we had ARMS releasing and not breaking 3m - it did super well for what it is, but I bet that if it released in 2022 it'd still sell along those lines.
I'd say that just like 3D Zelda, 3D Mario appeals for the general audience/casuals just as much as it does for the core gamers. Metroid Prime just doesn't. And I believe releasing alongside a game that has an overlapping audience will hurt its sales tbh.

Ocarina of Time sold 7,6m on the Nintendo 64 alone(on a 30m user base!!!), while Twilight Princess sold under 9m on GCN and Wii combined - the Wii version didn't even outsell the N64 Ocarina. Twilight Princess sold extremely well, was well received and for sure both acted as a system seller and benefited from being a launch title. But not anywhere near what happened with Breath of the Wild. Being a launch title, the core appealing game for the Wii until Galaxy and everything made Twilight Princess reach the absolute ceiling for what Zelda could be at the moment, but it didn't blow past that.

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption was a launch window title for the Wii, and it didn't make it a huge hit - it didn't even hit the franchise's ceiling, even tho it probably did fine for what Nintendo was expecting. And that game was demoed on the Wii reveal and got heavy marketing.

Skyward Sword, a sequel in the same console, released as pretty much the only big Wii game of 2011 when most people moved on from the Wii sold 4m - almost 60% of Twilight Princess' 7m!!

The situation of the Switch in 2024 is in no way comparable to that of the Wii in 2011, or, god forbid, Wii U in 2016. We've just had a year with two megaton releases, it had a ~120m active user base and Nintendo expects to sell 13.5 hardware units this FY. The audience still buys games - Super Mario Bros Wonder sold almost 14m, RPG 3.5m, Mario Vs DK and Peach broke 1m.

I think Metroid Prime 4 will be a breakout hit for Metroid. I mean, Dread was in some terms as much as Prime was(as in, surpassing the best selling game in the franchise after the series was on decline for awhile). I think it has a shot at hitting 5m which is an amazing result. It has a higher ceiling than Pikmin had before 4 and that one is probably getting to 4m.

I believe that being positioned as THE holiday title (like Dread was in 2021, but this time without a Pokémon game), being a visual marvel, maybe shaking up the formula and everything will give it the very best shot at being a hit. Switch owners are always eager for games, and that one has been hyped ever since the console's first year. I'd also add that I don't that coming mere months before the next generation hurt TLOU II, or Sekiro, or Pokémon Black 2/White 2 or Sun/Moon. And maybe at some point Switch 2 was planned for early 2024 with Mario Wonder and Metroid Prime 4 in the fall of 2023.
 
I'll also say that outside the Parasite Queen and the Ridley remix, I can't really think of a great boss battle theme from the first two games. I guess I kind of like the Vs. Dark Troopers?
Quadraxis, Emperor Ing, and the final Dark Samus fight all have great themes from Prime 2.




The Hunter fights in 3 have great music



I think we all need to replay 2 and 3 again soon, Yamamoto was cooking.
 
I just hope they don't focus too much on combat, personally. But what are we thinking? Focus on combat to bring more players, like Dread?
Dread barely sold more than Prime/NEStroid so I don't think so. IMO prime should focus more on the non-combat stuff, we already have combat covered for dread and future titles. I also say that as someone who desperately misses the exploration focus of past metroids, 2D metroid has yet to evolve passed super's hidden block breaking and in multiple ways has devolved since.
 
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Dread barely sold more than Prime/NEStroid so I don't think so. IMO prime should focus more on the non-combat stuff, we already have combat covered for dread and future titles. I also say that as someone who desperately misses the exploration focus of past metroids, 2D metroid has yet to evolve passes super's hidden block breaking and in multiple ways has devolved since.
Agreed. Still think Super is peak when it comes to how combat vs exploration should be
 
I just hope they don't focus too much on combat, personally. But what are we thinking? Focus on combat to bring more players, like Dread?
I'm a Metroid veteran, and I actually prefer roughly equal emphasis given to exploration and combat. Samus is a powerhouse, and I enjoy the feeling of gradually increasing power, so I'm glad Samus Returns and Dread meaningfully iterated on the admittedly rather antiquated combat of Super, Fusion, etc. I'm hoping Prime 4 goes a long way in expanding upon Samus's options in a fight. FPS combat has come a long way since the last major Prime game, after all.
 
I'm a Metroid veteran, and I actually prefer roughly equal emphasis given to exploration and combat. Samus is a powerhouse, and I enjoy the feeling of gradually increasing power, so I'm glad Samus Returns and Dread meaningfully iterated on the admittedly rather antiquated combat of Super, Fusion, etc. I'm hoping Prime 4 goes a long way in expanding upon Samus's options in a fight. FPS combat has come a long way since the last major Prime game, after all.
Interesting. I've never seen Metroid as a shooter, 2d or not. The monsters that would be easily obliterated in Super are just what I need for my exploration tea. That might answer why I'm in the minority that doesn't love Dread
 
How to improve on the Metroid Prime formula in one easy step:

Get rid of the fucking Fission Metroids

I haven't played 2 or 3 so maybe they already did
 
Interesting. I've never seen Metroid as a shooter, 2d or not. The monsters that would be easily obliterated in Super are just what I need for my exploration tea. That might answer why I'm in the minority that doesn't love Dread
Exploration is obviously the main pillar of Metroid, but Samus is a space warrior! I think her melee and counter from SR / Dread should be adapted for first-person, at the very least. The combat should be engaging in its own right, as opposed to a gameplay pillar the player merely tolerates so they can get back to exploring and scanning.
 
Echoes has the best bosses and probably best music of the series. I always say 1 is my overall favorite for its replayability and well-balanced difficulty, but 2 certainly trumps it in a few areas IMO. 3 is still a great game in its own right as well, but is a step below the first two.
 
Truth be told, if Metroid Prime is just more Metroid Prime with new environments, new weapons, and gears, I'd be pretty happy. It can feel new and fresh but virtue of playing like something old. It's not like we get a lot of Metroid Prime games. I can't imagine there are a lot of 30+ year old fucks like myself who would play Metroid Prime 4 and think "Oh god, it's been 20 years since I played one of these. I'm so burned out".
 
Truth be told, if Metroid Prime is just more Metroid Prime with new environments, new weapons, and gears, I'd be pretty happy. It can feel new and fresh but virtue of playing like something old. It's not like we get a lot of Metroid Prime games. I can't imagine there are a lot of 30+ year old fucks like myself who would play Metroid Prime 4 and think "Oh god, it's been 20 years since I played one of these. I'm so burned out".
Hmm on the one hand I'll still be really happy if that's the case, but on the other we have a fantastic trilogy already and a more ambitious approach can take the series to even higher levels
 
i feel pretty confident it will be a lot more then just "Metroid prime with better graphics and more content"
 
So forgive me going off on a ramble for a bit, because I find this subject fascinating:
These are interesting thoughts! I guess Hollow Knight wasn't the best example for me to draw a comparison with, since I forgot that a lot of the option comes from 80% of the map becoming accessible after Mantis Claw.

I guess what I'm picturing is closer to the tighter-sequenced end of metroidvania design, but just with a few sorta parallel sequences that the player can pursue in different orders or swap between? With a few multi-gated bottlenecks here and there, where the progression paths converge again, to make sure the player has the right upgrades from both/all of the parallel tracks before certain events are allowed to happen. So there is still a sequence in place, it's not the structural near-anarchy of NEStroid, but repeat playthroughs will naturally occur in slightly different orders because there's almost always more than one progression path available at any given time outside of these bottlenecks.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough, because to my surprise there isn't actually any good precedent I can think of for what I'm trying to describe. It's not a mostly-open world, and it's not sequence breaking, just... more flexibility within the sequence? There are still only one or two or three places you can go to progress at any given point, but it's not as strict as there only being the one each time.

(Famiboards ate the rest of my response when I tried to add another quote, fml :/ But I'll try and sum up the rest that I was admittedly kinda long-winded on the first time around.)

You have a lot of really good points here, and I'm just really curious to see how radical a departure or not Prime 4 winds up being. As much as each of the first three games have very different approaches to certain elements like the world design or combat, there's a lot of core DNA they have in common as well. So all of my guesses and hopes are still kinda shaped by and mostly limited to the expectations set by that common baseline, but if they do something that breaks those assumptions, (and I honestly hope they do, within reason) half the stuff I want to see from it could end up being a completely moot point.

And yeah, it'll be extremely interesting to see if the Donkey Kong games influence things any. I haven't played Tropical Freeze myself, but have seen a decent amount of gameplay footage, and my biggest impression is of how kinetic and ever-changing the environments are; it's not just DK himself that's moving, but the world itself, shifting and breaking and building around him as he goes. It could be cool to see some of that in Prime 4's room designs, maybe.

I had a good closing statement but again, got eaten and now I can't remember it, so ah well.
 
I still maintain that combat was excellent in Corruption, thanks to the amazing IR pointer controls, and the enemies, bosses, and encounters that were designed around them. The game was a bit too reliant on shooting though, so I do hope there is a better balance of exploration and combat in Prime 4, which I think there will be.

Also, of course the game will be designed around dual analogue with modern sensibilities. I am very curious as to whether or not they ditch lock on.

Hmm on the one hand I'll still be really happy if that's the case, but on the other we have a fantastic trilogy already and a more ambitious approach can take the series to even higher levels

I don't think it goes to higher levels by basically copying what everyone else is doing like I see people suggesting. Metroid has always been about carving it's own path forward, and I hope that's what they do here to rather than trying to be Doom 2016, Titanfall 2, or Prey.
 
I don't think it goes to higher levels by basically copying what everyone else is doing like I see people suggesting. Metroid has always been about carving it's own path forward, and I hope that's what they do here to rather than trying to be Doom 2016, Titanfall 2, or Prey.
Oh I agree for sure, it doesn't (and shouldn't) base itself on other series but it can be an entirely new thing in its own right
 
I think people misremember how good the Prime soundtracks were on average because the highs leave such an impression. The first one really was mostly strong throughout, with ambient material and generic noisy fight music kept to the very minor encounters and moments between areas. The sequels however are mostly things that sound like Phazon Mines, not Phendrana Drifts. You're living off of like, the Luminoth theme, the one Dark Samus encounter, and the kind of annoying Temple Grounds music for the whole first third of Echoes until you hit Torvus Bog and finally get something substantial to chew on. By Prime 3 the big trio of Bryyo Cliffside, SkyTown, and Rundas fight is practically all there is. Some of the best tracks in the series, yes, but aside from them you have a couple more pretty solid boss themes deep into the game, the title screen, and Pirate Homeworld is a decent remix of a Super Metroid track I guess (albeit far less memorable than the ones from the previous two games). They hit diminishing returns very quickly and very noticeably.

But yeah, regardless of how the game itself turns out, I expect to be just as disappointed by the Prime 4 soundtrack as I was the last few Metroids. I don't think I have faith in Nintendo's ability to put out good music anymore. They've bled a lot of their in-house talent (most of which hasn't even left the company, just stopped making music), but more than that they just don't use what they do have because someone high up got it in their head that ambient nothings are the future of game soundtracks. Even if they don't deliberately do Metroid of the Wild, we've had so many consecutive misses with Metroid that it seems silly to expect a hit at this point, they don't seem to be capable of successfully replacing Kenji Yamamoto. Retro doesn't even seem to be limited on who they can work with to just Nintendo staff, the game could be scored by Depeche Mode for all we know, but I just don't have any confidence at this point in the direction of any Nintendo game's soundtrack.


These all sound terrible and also completely unrealistic, except for 10, which feels at least plausible with how other Nintendo games have trended this gen. Still don't think it's that likely, but plausible.

Then again, Corruption tried to do all sorts of weird things to meet current trends...
Ik this is old.

But modern nitnedo music is still pretty good.

You just don’t get many full tracks that aren’t variatiksnleitomtoifs atmospheric version.

Check out the Genshin soundtrack soemtime if you haven’t, very much fills that hole.

Especially vimara Village day theme, trust me
 
I just hope they don't focus too much on combat, personally. But what are we thinking? Focus on combat to bring more players, like Dread?
Exploration should be the focus first and foremost, but ngl going through Prime Remastered... the combat could be touched up a little bit. It has nothing to do with drawing more players in. The combat just feels... old.

Ideally I think Prime 4 combat would be a much slower Doom Eternal. Eternal's encounter designs are all about swapping weapons depending on the situation or enemy encounter. Sounds like the different beams in Prime, no? Would fit Metroid really well. That doesn't mean I want it to be the coked-out power trip Doom is, but drawing from them would help.
 
I understand what @WonderLuigi is saying personally. I think they have been kind of stripping Metroid of its exploration focus a bit for a while now, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with Prime retaining easier, less challenging combat than the 2D games.

That being said Prime 1 and 2 have really bad combat and improving that should be one of the biggest priorities of 4
 
As a non-Prime fan, the only way to appeal to me is to not make another scanning simulator.

Obviously they don't need to appeal to me, but if they want to reach a broader demographic I think they really need to rework the visor stuff.
 
As a non-Prime fan, the only way to appeal to me is to not make another scanning simulator.

Obviously they don't need to appeal to me, but if they want to reach a broader demographic I think they really need to rework the visor stuff.

The scanning is 95% for lore, context and world building. There's very little required scanning you have to do in any of the Prime games.
 
Screen_Shot_2016-08-01_at_12.34.21_PM.0.0.1470069300.png

my reaction to the thread rn
 
I also enjoy scanning. I would be heartbroken if there weren't metric fucktons of stuff to scan in Prime 4. Story in Metroid games is scarce, so I love learning about the world via collecting info with the scan visor. Keep the vast majority of it optional though!

On some replays I do no scan runs and just play the game.
 
How so. Like, I'm genuinely curious b/c I'm not familiar with what "good" fps combat is supposed to be.

EDIT: Also here for the scan gang.
The combat system is very static. Part of the problem is that the mobility in the Prime games just isn't good, so a lot of your movement while in combat isn't very satisfying. I also think that so much of the combat system being lock-on based means that a lot of Prime's combat system is basically choosing "do I dodge the enemy and kill them, or eat the energy blast, kill them, and get all my health back anyways". It's essentially a non choice because things are generally very non threatening and in the few cases they are it's usually not for good reasons. The dodge being so hefty is both a blessing and a curse, it feels great to have a lot of weight to Samus as a character but it also really slows combat. I think what really made it clear for me how bad Prime's combat is was when I was fighting the Chozo ghosts while backtracking through areas .... just not fun at all. It probably doesn't help that because of how Metroid power scaling works Samus is always going to have way more health than her enemies, and the counterbalance is often just to make them spongier ..... which doesn't exactly work for a game where you need to slowly charge shots, and you're slow, and your enemies aren't particularly threatening.

Now to be clear, I think it's mostly acceptable in Prime because the actual game-feel of combat is super good, things like stuffing your energy blast input with a rocket, or doing a hefty dodge, or charging your wave beam. But it's kinda like .... once you actually get used to the combat system, you realize how limiting it is no matter how much the animations and sound effects contribute.

I'm not about to act like Prime's only answer is to take from Doom 2016 but .... it is admittedly a very good place to look, or Crysis 3, or honestly a lot of AAA sci fi first person shooters from after 2010 (as much as I hate Halo 5, pretty much every ability in that game would make sense for Samus). Making enemies faster and more aggressive while making Samus's movement better would be a good start.
 
I understand what @WonderLuigi is saying personally. I think they have been kind of stripping Metroid of its exploration focus a bit for a while now, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with Prime retaining easier, less challenging combat than the 2D games.

That being said Prime 1 and 2 have really bad combat and improving that should be one of the biggest priorities of 4
prime 2 is the most challenging game in the series
 
I'm not about to act like Prime's only answer is to take from Doom 2016 but .... it is admittedly a very good place to look, or Crysis 3, or honestly a lot of AAA sci fi first person shooters from after 2010 (as much as I hate Halo 5, pretty much every ability in that game would make sense for Samus).
I haven't even thought about drawing from Crysis 3. Genius. And as loathe as I am to admit it, Halo 5 would be a good place to look, too. Sigh...

I think making the enemies less spongy and instead making them more dynamic would be a great way to start. The combat is too static for how durable the enemies are. Makes it feel monotonous.
 
it's mostly easy with a couple difficulty spikes even on the hardest most

....which makes it the most challenging in the series, metroid is really easy overall
I don't really agree, Samus Returns and Dread were definitely harder, I'd honestly say Fusion had more difficulty spikes too. Even Super was harder on my first playthrough than Prime 2, playing that game while only picking up a few secret items makes Ridley a living hell on a first playthrough, and the gimmicks of the bosses got me way more.

Prime 2 was pretty much a cakewalk and I only played it once, the only thing I can think of was that the final two morph ball bosses were a little awkward with PC controls.
 
I hope Prime 4 is even more of a scanning simulator than the first three combined, to be perfectly frank. One of my favorite aspects of the Prime style, and I love how AM2R even brought it in to 2D a little bit.
 
I don't really agree, Samus Returns and Dread were definitely harder, I'd honestly say Fusion had more difficulty spikes too. Even Super was harder on my first playthrough than Prime 2, playing that game while only picking up a few secret items makes Ridley a living hell on a first playthrough, and the gimmicks of the bosses got me way more.

Prime 2 was pretty much a cakewalk and I only played it once, the only thing I can think of was that the final two morph ball bosses were a little awkward with PC controls.
SR and Dread are only difficult when you are unfamiliar with (limited) enemy movesets. Once you know, it's incredibly easy to get through the game without getting hit a single time because attacks are extremely telegraphed with bosses following a clockwork pattern of aggression. There is single move that's an exception to this, Kraid's bone attack. I don't consider anything in fusion to be a difficulty spike, I've seen people online discuss how they had trouble with yakuza but I get through that battle holding up on the D-pad and launching missiles for 80% of the encounter (this is not an exaggeration, that's how you get through the second phase). Contrast this with echoes where avoiding enemy attacks is more difficult; you can be familiar with boost guardian or emperor ing's movesets but you're getting hit for sure since attacks require faster reactions and environmental awareness. If you want to really experience the game's difficulty you have to play on hard (hyper) mode anyway.

I can't agree at all with super, even on normal echoes packs a bigger punch, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case for easy mode too but I've never played it below normal
 
SR and Dread are only difficult when you are unfamiliar with (limited) enemy movesets. Once you know, it's incredibly easy to get through the game without getting hit a single time because attacks are extremely telegraphed with bosses following a clockwork pattern of aggression.
If I play an entire game for the first time and it's a cakewalk the entire way through, like with Prime 2, then yes it is easier than a game where you have to actually learn movesets.

We get it, you're amazing at the games, but that doesn't add any value to the discussion. Especially when saying that Prime 2 is one of the harder games in the series, and that the 2D games from Fusion onwards are generally harder than the 3D series, are both neither controversial statements. I'm not even sure why we're focusing on this because it doesn't really change my statement whether Prime 2 is hard or not, the overall direction of the Prime series was to make the games easier than mainline given 1 is very easy and 3 is widely considered the easiest ever made.
 
If I play an entire game for the first time and it's a cakewalk the entire way through, like with Prime 2, then yes it is easier than a game where you have to actually learn movesets.

We get it, you're amazing at the games, but that doesn't add any value to the discussion. Especially when saying that Prime 2 is one of the harder games in the series, and that the 2D games from Fusion onwards are generally harder than the 3D series, are both neither controversial statements. I'm not even sure why we're focusing on this because it doesn't really change my statement whether Prime 2 is hard or not, the overall direction of the Prime series was to make the games easier than mainline given 1 is very easy and 3 is widely considered the easiest ever made.
It's worth noting that the base difficulty of the first two Prime games was toned down in later releases. And Prime 2 specifically nerfed the two most infamous bosses in the Wii version. I don't think the Prime games were deliberately very easy, except maybe as a consequence of the lesser focus on action as a whole. Their combat mostly just comes off as not very well-balanced to me, with enemies basically being bullet sponges, though according to some this can be mitigated by expending resources, maybe depending on the game. I can't say conclusively, but I think Gandrayda in Prime 3 took me like ten minutes in what was from what I recall just a basic shootout fight, and I definitely wasn't avoiding Hypermode, so I'm skeptical.

But yeah, all the 2D games except maybe Super and Zero Mission on Easy are harder than the Prime trilogy. Just getting a handle on Dread's extremely complicated controls was a learning curve that lasted me the entire duration of the game, and I went into it as a series veteran who did all the shinespark puzzles. Sure you can put Echoes on the hardest difficulty, but Dread literally has a one hit kill mode. Even if you know all the attack patterns, any lapse of focus will just instantly kill you. I'd buy that any Prime under those conditions would be worse, sure (not to mention immensely more punishing with how far apart saves are), but that isn't a thing.

I guess what I'm picturing is closer to the tighter-sequenced end of metroidvania design, but just with a few sorta parallel sequences that the player can pursue in different orders or swap between? With a few multi-gated bottlenecks here and there, where the progression paths converge again, to make sure the player has the right upgrades from both/all of the parallel tracks before certain events are allowed to happen. So there is still a sequence in place, it's not the structural near-anarchy of NEStroid, but repeat playthroughs will naturally occur in slightly different orders because there's almost always more than one progression path available at any given time outside of these bottlenecks.

I hope I'm explaining this well enough, because to my surprise there isn't actually any good precedent I can think of for what I'm trying to describe. It's not a mostly-open world, and it's not sequence breaking, just... more flexibility within the sequence? There are still only one or two or three places you can go to progress at any given point, but it's not as strict as there only being the one each time.
I think I get it. So in the most basic sense, one ability can open multiple places, but instead of spiraling further and further like that, you will encounter a point where you will need to have visited all of those places to continue. Sort of reminds me of the less linear Zeldas.

The biggest issue I can see that would make this very hard to pull off in Metroid is that either you force a player to continue down each path to the end with something outside of the upgrade loop (like Zelda dungeons with their Triforce Pieces or what have you), or you run into the problem where you get a new item at the end of the path, but you will have to wait possibly a very long time before you can find anywhere to use it because you still need to do the others. The player will naturally want to see where they can get with their new ability, because that's how Metroid works, but the answer is either "nowhere" or "none of the locations you can access are the way forward". Both of which would be confusing and frustrating.
 
I don't really agree, Samus Returns and Dread were definitely harder, I'd honestly say Fusion had more difficulty spikes too. Even Super was harder on my first playthrough than Prime 2, playing that game while only picking up a few secret items makes Ridley a living hell on a first playthrough, and the gimmicks of the bosses got me way more.

Prime 2 was pretty much a cakewalk and I only played it once, the only thing I can think of was that the final two morph ball bosses were a little awkward with PC controls.

Did you play the trilogy version? That's known for having its difficulty nerfed from the original.
 
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I just hope I like Prime 4, whatever it is lol

I played Prime for the first time last year and... I didnt really like it. Most of it has to do with dated game design, so I think if they used the foundation and executed it well, there is a game there I could love.
 
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I played prime for the first time with the remaster and it became one of my favorite games! Interesting how different people's tastes can be haha
Same here. I played 2 and 3 right after the remaster. I dropped 2 over halfway through because it was tediously boring. 3 was fun but I still think Prime 1 is the best of the three. I hope 4 draws a lot from Prime 1 but shakes up combat and movement to emphasize fluidity and variety.
 
I'm still recovering from not liking Prime 1 to be fair lol I'm a huge Metroid fan.

I really enjoyed the first half of the game, the Chozo Ruins portion is spectacular. But the bigger the game got, the more the transversal and combat problems became a hassle, until it became unbearable by Phazon Mines.
 
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